Short cycles, some thoughts

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  1. lol- gotcha

    I honestly don't have that sort of dissapline to decondition... at least for an effective period of time...

    But I do know that a super grocery shopping spree would be in order!! izza: :hot:


    .... I mean, how fat can you get in 15 days....


  2. Quote Originally Posted by jminis
    I think you should run your cycles in anabolic/androgenic phases, doing this has allowed me to run 30-40days cycles with very little shutdown and minimal post cycle therapy blues
    Jminis - Could you briefly summarize the basics of cycling in anabolic/androgenic phases, or else provide a link to a good reference? I'm interested in this but don't fully understand it.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by xtraflossy
    lol- gotcha

    I honestly don't have that sort of dissapline to decondition... at least for an effective period of time...
    12 days would be enough to decondition.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by size
    12 days would be enough to decondition.
    Hmm,. well,.. I was thinking 21+ days. Nice.

    I too am curious about anabolic/androgenic phases. I can only assume it means using different anabolics, keeping the androgenic for last,.. or first,..

  5. Quote Originally Posted by TeamSavage
    Could you briefly summarize the basics of cycling in anabolic/androgenic phases, or else provide a link to a good reference?
    The phases are in relation to drug choice. So one period is more anabolic and the other more androgenic while determined by drug selection.
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  6. The evidence for benefit from short deconditioning periods is pretty weak. Though soviet studies have shown weightlifters will have up to a 20% reduction in strength over a 2 week period, weightlifting is a highly technical activity and the applicability of this information to bodybuilding is pretty low.

    Since the majority of people here are purely concerned with aesthetics I don't really have any solid advice to give, but if you were an athlete, I would tell you to focus on other motor qualities besides strength for a month, while doing extremely low volume strength training purely for maintenance purposes. In particular, I think spending a month a couple times a year just doing large volumes of GPP and endurance work would be extremely beneficial to your long term athletic progress.

    As far as strength training goes I would have to say that taking any time "completely off" is probably not optimal and you would be better served by reducing your volume or intensity somewhat for 2-4 weeks depending on how physically beat up you are.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by size
    The phases are in relation to drug choice. So one period is more anabolic and the other more androgenic while determined by drug selection.
    Thanks... I kind of assumed that. But do you run the androgenic phase first and then shift over to more anabolic drugs, or vice versa? Could this be used for a short 4-8 week cycle with orals or fast esters, or does it apply only to longer cycles?

  8. Quote Originally Posted by TeamSavage
    Thanks... I kind of assumed that. But do you run the androgenic phase first and then shift over to more anabolic drugs, or vice versa? Could this be used for a short 4-8 week cycle with orals or fast esters, or does it apply only to longer cycles?
    I think arguments could be made for both ways.

    I found the more androgenic the compound, the faster I get shut down.
    Making the argument for placing it first would be you can get instant strength (almost) and gain becasue you have more matty test and such. Leaving a more anabolic compound becasue you might regain some natural production before you start PCT, making the gains stick easier.
    OR
    Leaving the more androgenic compound for last to solidify gains..

  9. Quote Originally Posted by xtraflossy
    I found the more androgenic the compound, the faster I get shut down.
    Making the argument for placing it first would be you can get instant strength (almost) and gain becasue you have more matty test and such. Leaving a more anabolic compound becasue you might regain some natural production before you start post cycle therapy, making the gains stick easier.
    I believe this was the method and reasoning ALR gives in Building the Perfect Beast, to jumpstart with the more androgenic compound, as the body won't shutdown until 14-21 days, and then continue with the anabolic compound to prevent shutdown (or a harsher one).

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Mass_69
    I believe this was the method and reasoning ALR gives in Building the Perfect Beast, to jumpstart with the more androgenic compound, as the body won't shutdown until 14-21 days, and then continue with the anabolic compound to prevent shutdown (or a harsher one).
    In Building the Perfect Beast ALR constructs his "Absolute Anabolic Phases" without the use of AAS. He uses AAS only for the androgenic phase. For the anabolic phase he uses things like insulin and GH.

    Which has got me confused as to whether Size and Jminis are talking about Androgenic/Anabolic phases in terms of what ALR is saying, or else are they referring to an AAS cycle with Andro/Anabolic phases, which would be completely different.

    Also, while it is true that the most androgenic substances often cause fast shutdown, the steroid with perhaps the highest anabolic:androgenic ratio, deca, also causes quick shutdown through progesterone activity. What AAS drugs could one use during tbe "anabolic phase" that wouldn't cause shutdown?

  11. I must admit, I do not think the "phasing" is necessary. I think a simple short cycle of say test and anavar(just as an example) together would be perfectly fine then moving into recovery.

  12. I would like to see the results of a Short cycle.. cycle that looks like this.

    Wk 1-4 Phera Plex
    WK 5-8 Standard PCT
    WK 9-12 Mega TRN
    WK 13-16 Standard PCT
    WK 17-20 SD
    WK 21-26 Longer PCT
    This is similar to what Dr. D had up a page or so back. The jury is still out IMO on whether or not TRN is as harsh on the liver as the 17aas but I thought if itís not maybe the methoxy would give a little relief in between the other two.

    Savage,
    I believe that they are referring to compounds anabolic:androgenic ratio. Such as Test which is a 1:1 I believe.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by TeamSavage
    What anabolic steroids drugs could one use during tbe "anabolic phase" that wouldn't cause shutdown?
    Boldenone, OT, Anavar. I am not too sure that I would say "wouldn't cause shutdown." I can say that based on my experience with anavar solo I exhibited no outward symptoms of shutdown i.e. decreased libido, shrinkage. No bloodwork was done so I cannot say with any assurance that anavar does or does not shut down endogenous Testosterone production.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  14. 1-4 Test Prop (150mg EOD)
    1-4 Superdrol (36mg ED)
    1-4 Tren Ace (75mg EOD)

    5-8 Nolva 40/40/20/20
    5-8 Clomid 100/50/50
    5-8 IGF (40mcg)
    5-8 Clen/Ketotifen (pyramid)

    9-12 Test Prop (150mg EOD)
    9-12 Superdrol (36mg ED)
    9-12 Tren Ace (75mg EOD)

    13-16 Nolva 40/40/20/20
    13-16 Clomid 100/50/50
    13-16 IGF (40mcg)
    13-16 Clen/Ketotifen (pyramid)

    hows do you like this?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by jonny21
    No bloodwork was done so I cannot say with any assurance that anavar does or does not shut down endogenous Testosterone production.
    Anavar will cause "shutdown".

  16. Quote Originally Posted by size
    Anavar will cause "shutdown".
    I automatically assume it will suppress normal function. My statement was just that I have no factual evidence either way.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  17. Quote Originally Posted by TeamSavage
    In Building the Perfect Beast ALR constructs his "Absolute Anabolic Phases" without the use of anabolic steroids. He uses anabolic steroids only for the androgenic phase. For the anabolic phase he uses things like insulin and GH.

    Which has got me confused as to whether Size and Jminis are talking about Androgenic/Anabolic phases in terms of what ALR is saying, or else are they referring to an anabolic steroids cycle with Andro/Anabolic phases, which would be completely different.

    Also, while it is true that the most androgenic substances often cause fast shutdown, the steroid with perhaps the highest anabolic:androgenic ratio, deca, also causes quick shutdown through progesterone activity. What anabolic steroids drugs could one use during tbe "anabolic phase" that wouldn't cause shutdown?
    "Absolute Anabolic Phases" are actually something different. The part I'm referring to is the "Max Androgen Phases" (starts at pg. 38) in which there is an Androgenic Dominance Period and an Anabolic Dominance Period, and ALR mentions transitioning from androgenic to anabolic.

    I cannot locate the exact line where he mentions the transition aiding in delaying shutdown (but I remember reading it)... or was it in his other book CME?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Mass_69
    "Absolute Anabolic Phases" are actually something different. The part I'm referring to is the "Max Androgen Phases" (starts at pg. 38) in which there is an Androgenic Dominance Period and an Anabolic Dominance Period, and ALR mentions transitioning from androgenic to anabolic.

    I cannot locate the exact line where he mentions the transition aiding in delaying shutdown (but I remember reading it)... or was it in his other book CME?
    OK thanks for the clarification. I will go back and reread.

    ALR has some interesting ideas. But I must say that the way he organizes his thoughts is haphazard at best. His books could really use a good editor...

  19. Fuggin' GREAT thread around here bro's.

  20. Anyone else care to chime in and running cycles in androgenic/anabolic phases?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by TeamSavage
    Anyone else care to chime in and running cycles in androgenic/anabolic phases?
    Bump for additional perspective.

  22. bringin this back to the top!

  23. I just did an 8-week bulker, I put on 35lbs, of which 15 to 20 were solid muscle. Doses were high and lots of food was absorbed. I have a thread in the contest prep section with my pics.

  24. Have to love this thread kicking it to the top. Hey Size remember this one

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Mass_69 View Post
    Bump for additional perspective.
    Thanks for bumpin' this Soma, everyone else left me hangin' for over a year...

  26. for you guys that had experience with both long and short cycles. what would be better for a newbe to start of with a 1-10 week test e cycle or short 4 week shorter acting ester cycles.

  27. For a newbie i would suggest a short cycle for a couple reasons:

    1) You have never used AAS and this is a good way to test the waters and to let find out how your body reacts, to the cycle, post cycle, and afterwards; sooner than later.

    2)You will recover your hpta faster which is critical for keeping gains and being shutdown can be hell on your mental state. with a short cycle it is not as long to recover. Better to suffer briefly your first time rather than dragging it out for possibly months.


    3) If you screw your pct all up then you dont have as much to lose

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Mass_69 View Post
    Thanks for bumpin' this Soma, everyone else left me hangin' for over a year...

    What do you need to know on the subject? Check out my thread where I actually have an entire cycle based around phases. The link should be in the first few pages somewhere of this thread.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by jminis View Post
    What do you need to know on the subject? Check out my thread where I actually have an entire cycle based around phases. The link should be in the first few pages somewhere of this thread.
    I wanted to see more comments pertaining to running these short cycles in phases (androgenic/anabolic), similar to what ALR wrote about.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Mass_69 View Post
    I wanted to see more comments pertaining to running these short cycles in phases (androgenic/anabolic), similar to what ALR wrote about.
    I think that is exactly what jminis is referring to.

    Now, stop hogging my thread! Wait... Forget it, it isn't my thread at all...
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