results from the FDA supplement tests for the BB.com Raid so far.

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  1. dpfisher
    dpfisher's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    Let's discuss this then....what would you think would happen if you continuously, over a period of 10 years, continued to raise your baseline cholesterol to unbelievable supra-physiological levels?

    Now, the average "large bodybuilder" does not take 2 cycles of superdrol to get, say, 280 freaking lbs. This comes from many, MANY years of cycles. So, if some of these "bros" are looking to get anywhere near this weight, with that type of BF%, while taking designers, then they are in for a world of hurt my friend...there is just no way around that....

    How come when we talk about aspirin, manufactured by big pharma, and we say that years of taking it can cause stomach ulcers and liver damage, everyone jumps the bandwagon, but when we say years of orals can do the same, 80% want to jump the guy stating it?
    That's actually really interesting, because I would think if you had enough cholesterol to be getting forced through and cutting stuff up you'd be having heart attack or brain clots before it ever got to that point. Does it crystallize in certain places or something?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by MC Gun View Post
    Yeah ok FDA rep where is your proof these are any worse than all the other crap in processed foods. what compounds are you saying cause these problems and what dosages and where are the definitive studies on all this smart ass there are none show me one credible source that has double blind studies.
    For **** sake man... shut your damn mouth. You OBVIOUSLY have no logical cell in your brain to argue with. WHAT THE **** DID I SAY ABOUT THESE COMPOUNDS? There are no studies on the **** you are ingesting, whereas real gear has a ton. Pull your head out of your ass and have a real conversation.

    PLEASE reference me where the hell a bag of chex mix causes heart wall thickening.
    Last edited by DAdams91982; 09-30-2009 at 10:39 AM.
    The Historic PES Legend
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by js2sbr View Post
    It's sad .. even here in an arena that we are pro bodybuilding, weight training, physique sculpting we continue to fight each other. I am at a loss for words now.
    Dude, you joined a debate that has been swirling for years. I don't believe you have witnessed the underhandedness of this industry and are only gun hoe about what you can or cannot buy instead of thinking about the unknowing audience purchasing one thing, and taking an amphetamine.

    I fought for the same freedoms you did in two wars, so don't give me that argument. I believe if it was your child consuming amphetamines for some fat loss you would be pretty damn irate. I HATE regulation, and find it usually causes more problems than not, but this industry is blinded by the multi billion dollar figure that is spent on supps at the expense of the consumers health. Reference ALRI hyperdrive, and PAL Aspire 36.
    The Historic PES Legend

  4. Quote Originally Posted by MC Gun View Post
    this is anabolic minds go post on natty boards if you support the FDA you are in the wrong place stupid. wait till they take all you supplements they are currently using a list that will take 12% of all supplements and antioxidants off the supplement list and put them into the medicine list. You will still be arguing for the FDA without any real studies. the people who back the FDA should go do something they actually believe in and stand up for not hassle the people on here losers. pity your backbone doesnt have some iron in it too.
    Please keep on going, your misguided attitude is making my morning cup of coffee a riot.
    The Historic PES Legend

  5. Quote Originally Posted by dpfisher View Post
    Not that I don't believe you, but I've never heard of this. Can you elaborate or point me towards a source? Google is just giving me crap on skin treatments.
    Read up on hypertension and plaque formation. The increased blood pressure causes blood cells to constantly slam into the arterial wall with each heart beat and subsequently scar the walls giving LDL a foot hold for increased plaque formation and in time heart disease. Both LDL elevation and hypertension comes from AAS, more so these methyl's being pedaled today.

    http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/con...tract/18/2/123
    The Historic PES Legend
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  6. "Read up on hypertension and plaque formation. The increased blood pressure causes blood cells to constantly slam into the arterial wall with each heart beat and subsequently scar the walls giving LDL a foot hold for increased plaque formation and in time heart disease. Both LDL elevation and hypertension comes from AAS, more so these methyl's being pedaled today."

    Fight the good fight, D!

    And that's just the tip of a very big iceberg, kiddies. The impact that methyls have on liver synthesis of cholesterol has far reaching impacts on cardiovascular, endocrine and even mental health. Then there are issues with these highly androgenic compounds...say "400 x more potent than test" being the typical selling point...inducing thickening of the heart walls leading to Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy at young ages. Ever wonder why you get short of breath on some of these cycles? Ever wonder what these WWF and WWE wrestlers keel over from at age 45? HCM. Learn it or live it.

    I'm not going to argue your "right to take whatever", because really...I don't care if you kill yourself pursuing vanity and I know enough to get whatever I want, whenever I want it. But for God's sake man, learn a little about what you're putting in your body and stop believing everything the designer pushers tell you. That's every bit as bad as Drs going solely by the shiny pamphlets they get from pharmacuetical reps.

  7. i guess one way to sum it all up: Ignorance is bliss.


    I'll admit, upon first hearing of all this FDA business I was a bit uneducated and disappointed. But further investigation made me wise. What you guys above me and 5150 and a few others are saying makes plenty of sense. I am in fact glad that there are a few of you who are as you said bioman, fighting the good fight. For the few of us who think before we act, thank you.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    "Read up on hypertension and plaque formation. The increased blood pressure causes blood cells to constantly slam into the arterial wall with each heart beat and subsequently scar the walls giving LDL a foot hold for increased plaque formation and in time heart disease. Both LDL elevation and hypertension comes from AAS, more so these methyl's being pedaled today."

    Fight the good fight, D!

    And that's just the tip of a very big iceberg, kiddies. The impact that methyls have on liver synthesis of cholesterol has far reaching impacts on cardiovascular, endocrine and even mental health. Then there are issues with these highly androgenic compounds...say "400 x more potent than test" being the typical selling point...inducing thickening of the heart walls leading to Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy at young ages. Ever wonder why you get short of breath on some of these cycles? Ever wonder what these WWF and WWE wrestlers keel over from at age 45? HCM. Learn it or live it.

    I'm not going to argue your "right to take whatever", because really...I don't care if you kill yourself pursuing vanity and I know enough to get whatever I want, whenever I want it. But for God's sake man, learn a little about what you're putting in your body and stop believing everything the designer pushers tell you. That's every bit as bad as Drs going solely by the shiny pamphlets they get from pharmacuetical reps.
    Damn fine way to put it in perspective Bio. Seems as though people do not want to admit that adverse effects can come from our holy line of supplements. Taking an advertisement of a company out to make money as gospel about a compound that has only been given to gerbils and monkeys.
    The Historic PES Legend

  9. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Taking an advertisement of a company out to make money as gospel about a compound that has only been given to gerbils and monkeys.
    These are the buyers correct?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by bigmoe65 View Post
    These are the buyers correct?
    No, I mean a compound pulled from vida that has no human studies.
    The Historic PES Legend

  11. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    No, I mean a compound pulled from vida that has no human studies.
    These are the buyers correct? Get it?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by bigmoe65 View Post
    These are the buyers correct? Get it?
    Ah, I see what you did there.
    The Historic PES Legend

  13. Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    Clearly, I must be an idiot. Hell, probably as blind as stevie wonder. With the 400++ logs that I have witnessed on 8 or 9 sites over the past 8 years that have mostly been stating the exact same thing which I stated..."gained xxxlbs but lost xxx lbs two months later"

    These same "go getters" are the same size, mostly, that they were 6 years ago when they were running designers, prohormones, steroids, sh!t on a stick, etc. It's not the roids fault, it's the idiot running them (that is what I meant)

    When I ran m1t, pp, back in the hay day, i ALWAYS benefited TO THE MAX during my PCT and even years after I quit. I haven't touched an actual designer since around 05, early 06...and I've probably gained more than I did when I was using them (oh, actually i have because I got smarter with dieting and physical workouts)

    I should have stated "MOST" because most people end up losing most of what they have gained during PCT when they run prohormones or designers or at least 3 months later.

    I NEVER stated that people running actual "old school" steroids suffered the same fate. However, even those will garner no pluses if they cannot properly run a cycle.

    And, if you believe that those "10lbs" johnny boy gained in 4 weeks are lbm then you sir have NO CLUE about androgen moa, or muscle stimulation, or muscle growth.

    Two many times that I have seen some kid on a board thinking that by taking a pill, he's gonna look like Frank Zane, Jay Cutler, Ronnie, Arnold, or Lee Haney, just to name a few....**** ain't happening without great dieting, great workouts, great rest, and a great support system around you. Oh, and great genetics don't hurt either. Get with it brother...
    Then get your first post right man. You made it seem as though everyone who took a PH didn't have a proper diet or weight training regimen when that is not the case with those of us who take the time to research what we are doing and craft it down to fit our needs. These tool bags that you do speak of, however, really have ruined such things that should be at our disposal if we so CHOOSE to take them and TAKE THEM RESPONSIBLY!
  14. dpfisher
    dpfisher's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    "Read up on hypertension and plaque formation. The increased blood pressure causes blood cells to constantly slam into the arterial wall with each heart beat and subsequently scar the walls giving LDL a foot hold for increased plaque formation and in time heart disease. Both LDL elevation and hypertension comes from AAS, more so these methyl's being pedaled today."

    Fight the good fight, D!

    And that's just the tip of a very big iceberg, kiddies. The impact that methyls have on liver synthesis of cholesterol has far reaching impacts on cardiovascular, endocrine and even mental health. Then there are issues with these highly androgenic compounds...say "400 x more potent than test" being the typical selling point...inducing thickening of the heart walls leading to Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy at young ages. Ever wonder why you get short of breath on some of these cycles? Ever wonder what these WWF and WWE wrestlers keel over from at age 45? HCM. Learn it or live it.

    I'm not going to argue your "right to take whatever", because really...I don't care if you kill yourself pursuing vanity and I know enough to get whatever I want, whenever I want it. But for God's sake man, learn a little about what you're putting in your body and stop believing everything the designer pushers tell you. That's every bit as bad as Drs going solely by the shiny pamphlets they get from pharmacuetical reps.
    I know usually when someone starts a sentence with "not that I don't believe you" they usually mean "I don't believe you" but I tend to speak my mind. I'm not arguing his point at all; I find it genuinely interesting.

    Some of the things you mention I'm less concerned about like heart wall thickness because that has shown to return to normal after about 6 months off cycle, plus it occurs more from GH and exercise than from steroids.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by dpfisher View Post
    I know usually when someone starts a sentence with "not that I don't believe you" they usually mean "I don't believe you" but I tend to speak my mind. I'm not arguing his point at all; I find it genuinely interesting.

    Some of the things you mention I'm less concerned about like heart wall thickness because that has shown to return to normal after about 6 months off cycle, plus it occurs more from GH and exercise than from steroids.
    From what I remember, Phera-plex (ie Madol) causes thickening of the heart wall. Not sure if it returns to normal post-cycle but I'm skeptical.
  16. dpfisher
    dpfisher's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjo View Post
    From what I remember, Phera-plex (ie Madol) causes thickening of the heart wall. Not sure if it returns to normal post-cycle but I'm skeptical.
    I've seen studies that say it does but there's a study to say everything so you could be right.

    My reasoning, which may be wrong, goes like this: Say you spend every day for a month doing squats. You're gonna get some bigass legs. Spend the next 6 months just walking. They aren't going to stay that big.

  17. only study i have seen with madrol is that in rats over long term use it causes heart thickening.
  18. dpfisher
    dpfisher's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty33 View Post
    only study i have seen with madrol is that in rats over long term use it causes heart thickening.
    The one I'm thinking of is not with madrol, so I can't comment directly on that. It was a couple different injectables if I remember correctly. The mechanism of action should be similar though, should it not?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    Let's think about results for a minute. For example, take a compound with a molecular weight of 321 that possesses an episulfide and a hydroxyl function, which are it's two most libel groups in a GC/MS fragmentation. When injected into a testing system (reference my GC/MS tutorial on p.10), what would be the most likely result? The parent less the hydroxyl less the episulfide which would strip a proton with it (320.53-17.01-32.07-1.01=270.45~270) leaving an ion which would resemble the non alcoholic version of DMT (2-ene). Also, imagine that this product is 99+% pure and that the results and logs are stellar by almost all who try it.
    Quote Originally Posted by dpfisher View Post
    The one I'm thinking of is not with madrol, so I can't comment directly on that. It was a couple different injectables if I remember correctly. The mechanism of action should be similar though, should it not?
    In the Anabolics 2007 book, it states that Methepitiostane is derived from DHT(Dihydrotestosterone).

    Food for thought.

    EDIT: A thread here about it... Epistane = Phera-Plex....WTF??
  20. dpfisher
    dpfisher's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Lungz View Post
    In the Anabolics 2007 book, it states that Methepitiostane is derived from DHT(Dihydrotestosterone).

    Food for thought.
    Do you know if the thickening problem is present with compounds that do not convert to DHT?

    How in depth is that book? Maybe I should get a copy.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by dpfisher View Post
    That's actually really interesting, because I would think if you had enough cholesterol to be getting forced through and cutting stuff up you'd be having heart attack or brain clots before it ever got to that point. Does it crystallize in certain places or something?
    Not sure what you are asking here? "forced through"?

    Are you referring to my statement about pushing cholesterol levels to maximum levels over many years, and blood pressure to the max over many years?
    ---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---

  22. Quote Originally Posted by gymbo123 View Post
    Then get your first post right man. You made it seem as though everyone who took a PH didn't have a proper diet or weight training regimen when that is not the case with those of us who take the time to research what we are doing and craft it down to fit our needs. These tool bags that you do speak of, however, really have ruined such things that should be at our disposal if we so CHOOSE to take them and TAKE THEM RESPONSIBLY!
    You know what, this really happens often on these "text" only boards. People do not get the "gist" of the statements.

    The statement that I made about 12lbs of water, etc, was not NECESSARILY concerning to the fact of whether or not anyone gained or lost xxx lbs or strength during pct. The POINT of the statement was that FEW want to risk getting caught and going to prison for selling a substance if/and when it becomes scheduled.

    For reasons unknown, you seem to have been attracted to the portion that read about the lbs lost and gained or whatever. So, I responded to THAT particular in which you got angry about.

    Regardless of the factual numbers of lbs lost, gained, nut hair grown, or titties grown during pCT, was not really the point of the statement...

    You're focusing on the apples, and I'm eating grapes over here bro...
    ---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---

  23. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Liver damage, heart tissue thickening, artery micro abrasions, hypertension.

    I think the part you are missing (From reading your posts lately) is the fact that the industry has no regulation, so you are probably not even ingesting what you think you are. BTW, I HATE regulation, but this industry cannot self regulate and in turn can seriously harm some.

    Then go on to the fact the people taking these designers are taking something that has NO STUDIES. Whereas real gear has mountains of information and studies on them.

    Get off the FDA and do some real ****.. it is better and safer.
    Lets not forget how my scripts the FDA passes every year and how many people actually die from those pharms, or have liver issues, kidney issues, heart issues, blood issues...... Have you heard the side of effects of some of these dr. scribed drugs?

    Yaz had to come out and issue ANOTHER public commercial due to side effects. lol

    The FDA does not have our best health interests in mind, lets not forget this.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    "Read up on hypertension and plaque formation. The increased blood pressure causes blood cells to constantly slam into the arterial wall with each heart beat and subsequently scar the walls giving LDL a foot hold for increased plaque formation and in time heart disease. Both LDL elevation and hypertension comes from AAS, more so these methyl's being pedaled today."

    Fight the good fight, D!

    And that's just the tip of a very big iceberg, kiddies. The impact that methyls have on liver synthesis of cholesterol has far reaching impacts on cardiovascular, endocrine and even mental health. Then there are issues with these highly androgenic compounds...say "400 x more potent than test" being the typical selling point...inducing thickening of the heart walls leading to Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy at young ages. Ever wonder why you get short of breath on some of these cycles? Ever wonder what these WWF and WWE wrestlers keel over from at age 45? HCM. Learn it or live it.

    I'm not going to argue your "right to take whatever", because really...I don't care if you kill yourself pursuing vanity and I know enough to get whatever I want, whenever I want it. But for God's sake man, learn a little about what you're putting in your body and stop believing everything the designer pushers tell you. That's every bit as bad as Drs going solely by the shiny pamphlets they get from pharmacuetical reps.

    These guys are using VERY large amounds of anabolics, usually mixed with pain killers, other drugs and alcohol.

    Nice generalization though.

    lol

  25. BB.com was my alternate site when NP sold out of the AI's and similar.
    I was just about to order from BB a certain stack because NP did not have one of the items in stock last time I checked.
    Both items I wanted were gone. And then I read about the raid.
    Kinda sucks.
    As far as the political situation is that we have bigger issues than supplements.
    And I am all for them trumping shady companies who sell dangerous stuff labeled as safe.
    But this action scares companies into even taking away things that are not too harmful.
    And eventually they are going to ban herbs that are actually helpful so we can all take advantage of their health care on a daily basis.
    Thing is I have taken prescriptions and herbs for different issues and the herbs work better for me.

    I just hope the FDA and government can focus on the true criminals without restricting most of our choices.l.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS View Post
    Lets not forget how my scripts the FDA passes every year and how many people actually die from those pharms, or have liver issues, kidney issues, heart issues, blood issues...... Have you heard the side of effects of some of these dr. scribed drugs?

    Yaz had to come out and issue ANOTHER public commercial due to side effects. lol

    The FDA does not have our best health interests in mind, lets not forget this.
    Nice red herring. I wasn't advocating for the FDA here. Debate my thoughts instead of redirecting the light elsewhere.

    Lets pick out one of these terrible medicines. How about Chemotherapy (A good ****tail of drugs)... lets think about what that does to the body... strait poison, everything you discussed, loss of hair, sometimes vision... but, what is one of the only proved ways for cancer... oh... Chemotherapy... big catch 22 there, do you want hair, or do you want to live? And lets take another idea here, you ACTUALLY KNOW WTF YOU ARE TAKING. If you research it or not is all on you, but you have that opportunity, whereas these companies strip you of that right without putting on the label what is in the bottle.

    I do no like the FDA, as with any other bureaucracy... but for ****s sake man, when has this industry stepped up and regulated itself in a safe fashion? When you potentially hurt another unknowing individual, sorry man, here is your bag, get the **** outta here.
    The Historic PES Legend

  27. Quote Originally Posted by GuyverX View Post
    BB.com was my alternate site when NP sold out of the AI's and similar.
    I was just about to order from BB a certain stack because NP did not have one of the items in stock last time I checked.
    Both items I wanted were gone. And then I read about the raid.
    Kinda sucks.
    As far as the political situation is that we have bigger issues than supplements.
    And I am all for them trumping shady companies who sell dangerous stuff labeled as safe.
    But this action scares companies into even taking away things that are not too harmful.
    And eventually they are going to ban herbs that are actually helpful so we can all take advantage of their health care on a daily basis.
    Thing is I have taken prescriptions and herbs for different issues and the herbs work better for me.

    I just hope the FDA and government can focus on the true criminals without restricting most of our choices.l.
    They are not banning any new substances right now. Steroids are already illegal and they are working to get these already illegal substances off the shelves. The senate hearing reiterated the same thing - better enforcement of current laws rather than new legislation.

  28. Um....I'll ask.....WTF is this thread about again?

    I am sooooo lost....
    True story:

    I give a f**K!!

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS View Post
    These guys are using VERY large amounds of anabolics, usually mixed with pain killers, other drugs and alcohol.

    Nice generalization though.

    lol
    True I never seen a pro wrestler die of just steroids... Now the idea of mixing steroids, painkillers, and hard liquer does sound like one of the deadliest combos in the world. Lets not forget the likely hood of drug abuse along the lines of "recreational" drugs.

    This people need every external chemical to maintain their "performance"

    And although wrestling is fake in results, it is very real in pain. Knee replacements, back surgery, torn muscles, broken bones, all that happens often. Its not an easy thing to do in reality, in fact I doubt any of these real "actors" could pull off a good wrestling performance. These guys after 10 years have had their bodies destroyed. I think Hogan had both knees replaced and a back surgery, and was still hammering it out. Obviously the pain killers are easy to see as a necessity. As well as Steroids to stay huge for the crowds. The drugs and booze are simply to deal with it all.

    And like said as a good note, these guys are likely pinning over a gram of Test on a weekly base, plus adding in other stuff.

    Anyone remember Buff Bagwell(or whatever). First time I seen him, and I was young, I was like "STEROIDS!!!!!" hahahaaa.

    And that crap aint from no 4 weeks of Epi, or 12 weeks of 500mg test....
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