results from the FDA supplement tests for the BB.com Raid so far.

[johnyq]

Its been discussed, supposedly the FDA removed the TREN allegations in a later version.

[Zero V]

Exactly what I meant to write. In case of doubt, I would prefer to believe the FDA's tests than the steroid manufacturer's claims.

The "Rage" products are all only listed as tren when they are all combos.

I think they simply tested for all the needed to ban it. They only need 1 steroid of out 3 or 4 to have it on the black list. Every single thing is only listed with one ingredient, that is just the FDA only doing what they need to get what they want.

[bigmoe65]

Will BB.com face a criminal prosecution from this? They are not the ones manufacturing and labeling these products.

[js2sbr]

I guess we must prepare for life in the NWO .. Natural World Order. It is good to know what is actually in the products we have taken or have planned to take. Some people are crying foul because they were duped in their choice of sup containing ingredients not listed. These would also be the same types that were extolling the virtues of those sups. I have always been of a mind if a product says it is natural and you are getting an unnatural result, then its more than likely not natural.

For those that have the products, at least proper pct can be planned for the remaining cycles run until each individuals supply is gone. By then someone would have exploited a legal loophole, designed something completely new, or set up shop in a more friendly country. Latter scares me as if we didn't know what was in the products now, how would we know what would be in them then?

This is a sad day. I was the latest of a family of honorably discharged servicemembers and to see that the freedoms we swore to defend being taken from us makes me weep for the future.

[Zero V]

Exactly what I meant to write. In case of doubt, I would prefer to believe the FDA's tests than the steroid manufacturer's claims.

I guess we must prepare for life in the NWO .. Natural World Order. It is good to know what is actually in the products we have taken or have planned to take. Some people are crying foul because they were duped in their choice of sup containing ingredients not listed. These would also be the same types that were extolling the virtues of those sups. I have always been of a mind if a product says it is natural and you are getting an unnatural result, then its more than likely not natural.

For those that have the products, at least proper pct can be planned for the remaining cycles run until each individuals supply is gone. By then someone would have exploited a legal loophole, designed something completely new, or set up shop in a more friendly country. Latter scares me as if we didn't know what was in the products now, how would we know what would be in them then?

This is a sad day. I was the latest of a family of honorably discharged servicemembers and to see that the freedoms we swore to defend being taken from us makes me weep for the future.

European PH/DS market aint going nowhere...

[js2sbr]

European PH/DS market aint going nowhere...

But with the trampling on of the civil liberties of our citizens, the availablity of those products just do not seem likely. I can see it now. Package is inspected, call placed to dea, package delivered with signature confirmation, 5 sec later feds kicking down the door of your home.

Oh silly me, I actually thought we still had civil liberties.

Anyone got a place in Europe for rent 2 months out of the year?

[Zero V]

But with the trampling on of the civil liberties of our citizens, the availablity of those products just do not seem likely. I can see it now. Package is inspected, call placed to dea, package delivered with signature confirmation, 5 sec later feds kicking down the door of your home.

Oh silly me, I actually thought we still had civil liberties.

Anyone got a place in Europe for rent 2 months out of the year?

You just wait...the inventiveness of the American spirit still lives on in some... quite the easy thing really. I cant do a darn thing, but there will be a few intelligent peeps who step in to help the oppressed.

[js2sbr]

You just wait...the inventiveness of the American spirit still lives on in some... quite the easy thing really. I cant do a darn thing, but there will be a few intelligent peeps who step in to help the oppressed.

Thanks Zero .. I needed a reaffirming comment like that! Yes I do hope that the inventiveness of the American Spirit prevails!!

[DAdams91982]

But with the trampling on of the civil liberties of our citizens, the availablity of those products just do not seem likely. I can see it now. Package is inspected, call placed to dea, package delivered with signature confirmation, 5 sec later feds kicking down the door of your home.

Oh silly me, I actually thought we still had civil liberties.

Anyone got a place in Europe for rent 2 months out of the year?

Dude... you sound like Glenn Beck. I am strait libertarian, but for ****s sake, life isn't as bad as you think it is. Stationed in Germany for 4 years... please enjoy your 19% sales tax those two months.

[js2sbr]

Dude... you sound like Glenn Beck. I am strait libertarian, but for ****s sake, life isn't as bad as you think it is. Stationed in Germany for 4 years... please enjoy your 19% sales tax those two months.

First of all I have no idea who Glenn Beck other than seeing him or something about him on tv monitors at the gym. My views being what they are may have come across as liberal, but I assure you I am far from it. The issue at hand is that 10 years ago there would have been an uproar about the limiting of our ability to make choices for ourselves. I served in the military to help preserve our way of life not have it taken away.

Secondly the sad thing that history teaches us is that if we do not learn from it then we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. We are referred to as the New Rome. How long before this cycles from a republic to empire and then to collapse? Our current government that has been voted in power by its voting peers is doing its best to take stuff away (try buying ammo for instance) that one day we are going to wake up to find all that we fought for to support is gone.

This is my view, not Glenn Beck's (and if it is his too it's purely coincidental.)

Furthermore, I was thinking more mediterranean. Ibiza sounds like a nice spot!

[MC Gun]

Liver damage, heart tissue thickening, artery micro abrasions, hypertension.

I think the part you are missing (From reading your posts lately) is the fact that the industry has no regulation, so you are probably not even ingesting what you think you are. BTW, I HATE regulation, but this industry cannot self regulate and in turn can seriously harm some.

Then go on to the fact the people taking these designers are taking something that has NO STUDIES. Whereas real gear has mountains of information and studies on them.

Get off the FDA and do some real ****.. it is better and safer.

Yeah ok FDA rep where is your proof these are any worse than all the other crap in processed foods. what compounds are you saying cause these problems and what dosages and where are the definitive studies on all this smart ass there are none show me one credible source that has double blind studies.

[js2sbr]

It's sad .. even here in an arena that we are pro bodybuilding, weight training, physique sculpting we continue to fight each other. I am at a loss for words now.

[Iron Lungz]

Your bullsh*t rhetoric is tired. You need to chill with calling people "FDA Reps."
Everyone is growing annoyed with you pointing your finger at America when you are NOT an American.

Yeah ok FDA rep where is your proof these are any worse than all the other crap in processed foods. so your saying if they are labeled as you would like them to be just like cigarettes kill people you would be ok with that.

[jherman08]

lmfao were all fighting =D

[dpfisher]

artery micro abrasions

Not that I don't believe you, but I've never heard of this. Can you elaborate or point me towards a source? Google is just giving me crap on skin treatments.

lmfao were all fighting =D

ROID RAGE!!! Nah but really when you have hundreds of guys who have that alpha male kinda mentality in the same place there's bound to be tension...

[hardknock]

My question is to the FDA exactly what is the problem with these compounds apart from the fact they actually work to build muscle and with proper PCT you can even keep some of the gains with out to much problems?

The only thing that you have to remember is that this is not just some law that all of a sudden sprung up, despite the recent few years of bans..

If you take a look at U.S.C., 21 §§ 331 (a) (c) (d) and (k), you will find that it is (in laymen terms) illegal to sell a "drug like steroid" OTC, PERIOD. And, you cannot distribute them without proper license and or permissions. It HAS BEEN illegal to sell a steroid OTC. It is and will always (i guess always) be illegal to make medical claims of a dietary supplement. The ONE instant that someone states "builds muscle, inhibits muscle wasting, etc", they are BASICALLY making a medical claim. This is not LEGAL if you do not own the proper license, titles, etc...

This didn't just happen in 1998, 04, 05, or whatever, it has been like that FOR YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ARS. They have changed a few things here and there, added this or that but the basis has been there.

So, these companies (SOME OF THEM, not ALL) have always known they were in NEAR violation but they have been skirting the fence due to loopholes.....it's no travesty of justice as some (not you) but some has tried to paint it....an infant learns the first time when he/she touches something hot to not put their hands back on that item....damn, we could learn something from infants huh?

[hardknock]

WTF HOLY $H!Z!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hyperdrol X2 is THAT?!?!

Andro and tren?!?!?!? It is supposed to be a 6 bromo? o.0

Either that is as underhanded as it gets or the FDA is doing some crap testing...

I mean I was giving AX a chance to release info on slim x and such, but if that is true about HX2 I am a bit pissed, I took HX2....

Z, the fda supposedly retracted the statement about the tren being in hyperdrol...it was a "typo". This is from one of the AX members...so, take it for whatever it is worth.

[wontstop985]

You just wait...the inventiveness of the American spirit still lives on in some... quite the easy thing really. I cant do a darn thing, but there will be a few intelligent peeps who step in to help the oppressed.

You are talking about drug trafficking? To help out the people that are being "oppressed" by not being able to buy illegal drugs at their local store? Do you ever step back and read your posts? Please respond with a ridiculous rant that makes little, if any, sense.

Dude... you sound like Glenn Beck. I am strait libertarian, but for ****s sake, life isn't as bad as you think it is. Stationed in Germany for 4 years... please enjoy your 19% sales tax those two months.

I agree, they act like USA is a terrible place to live - wtf ?!?! They complain like the government is raping their civil rights, but steroids are already illegal - you're not supposed to be able to buy them at your local supplement store. You're civil rights are not being destroyed. Our liberties have not been touched. They can walk into Walmart and buy a shotgun if they don't believe me. Bunch of god damn babies...

Yeah ok FDA rep where is your proof these are any worse than all the other crap in processed foods. what compounds are you saying cause these problems and what dosages and where are the definitive studies on all this smart ass there are none show me one credible source that has double blind studies.

You are an idiot. Please respond with another dumb post, preferably accusatory.

First of all I have no idea who Glenn Beck other than seeing him or something about him on tv monitors at the gym. My views being what they are may have come across as liberal, but I assure you I am far from it. The issue at hand is that 10 years ago there would have been an uproar about the limiting of our ability to make choices for ourselves. I served in the military to help preserve our way of life not have it taken away.

Secondly the sad thing that history teaches us is that if we do not learn from it then we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. We are referred to as the New Rome. How long before this cycles from a republic to empire and then to collapse? Our current government that has been voted in power by its voting peers is doing its best to take stuff away (try buying ammo for instance) that one day we are going to wake up to find all that we fought for to support is gone.

This is my view, not Glenn Beck's (and if it is his too it's purely coincidental.)

Furthermore, I was thinking more mediterranean. Ibiza sounds like a nice spot!

Do you have any clue what you are talking about? Have you ever studied ancient Rome?

[hardknock]

Not that I don't believe you, but I've never heard of this. Can you elaborate or point me towards a source? Google is just giving me crap on skin treatments.



ROID RAGE!!! Nah but really when you have hundreds of guys who have that alpha male kinda mentality in the same place there's bound to be tension...

Let's discuss this then....what would you think would happen if you continuously, over a period of 10 years, continued to raise your baseline cholesterol to unbelievable supra-physiological levels?

Now, the average "large bodybuilder" does not take 2 cycles of superdrol to get, say, 280 freaking lbs. This comes from many, MANY years of cycles. So, if some of these "bros" are looking to get anywhere near this weight, with that type of BF%, while taking designers, then they are in for a world of hurt my friend...there is just no way around that....

How come when we talk about aspirin, manufactured by big pharma, and we say that years of taking it can cause stomach ulcers and liver damage, everyone jumps the bandwagon, but when we say years of orals can do the same, 80% want to jump the guy stating it?

[Zero V]

lmfao were all fighting =D

In all reality it is very healthy. People are so damn afraid of conflict. Thats like at church I cant even talk about certain things because 50% are for one side and 50% for the other...Accept the realities and get it out there. I still respect everyone on here I have had issues with, though I am quite surprised by how low a few of them really steep...

Z, the fda supposedly retracted the statement about the tren being in hyperdrol...it was a "typo". This is from one of the AX members...so, take it for whatever it is worth.

Ah, I hope so...although since I took it almost 2 years ago I guess everything went Ok anyways.

You are talking about drug trafficking? To help out the people that are being "oppressed" by not being able to buy illegal drugs at their local store? Do you ever step back and read your posts? Please respond with a ridiculous rant that makes little, if any, sense.

If the FDA banned grape juice it would be illegal drug trafficking to import it....

Point being is a select few have to right to deem what is "illegal" for the whole. We have no freedom to choose what we want in this nation. In a system set up like ours with the FDA, they are the kings of the land, that DOES NOT make them right. Just overpowered.

[MC Gun]

Your bullsh*t rhetoric is tired. You need to chill with calling people "FDA Reps."
Everyone is growing annoyed with you pointing your finger at America when you are NOT an American.

This issue affects me and all bodybuilders worldwide genius if you had any brains you would care also.

[MC Gun]

[hardknock
Registered User

You are an idiot. Please respond with another dumb post, preferably accusatory.

So where is the proof with proper studies it is these ph's doing damage none show me one real double blind study and l will retract everything l have said. you are a sheep and will believe anything you are told without any real studies what a fool. it is peoples bad lifestyles drinking and taking drugs and stims etc that mess them up not ph's.

[hardknock]

You just wait...the inventiveness of the American spirit still lives on in some... quite the easy thing really. I cant do a darn thing, but there will be a few intelligent peeps who step in to help the oppressed.

Sorry bro, no one's going to want to spend time washing chuck and bubba's underwear in prison just because jim-bo wants to gain 12lbs of water and glycogen, while losing most of it in PCT one month later....not me at least....

[Zero V]

Sorry bro, no one's going to want to spend time washing chuck and bubba's underwear in prison just because jim-bo wants to gain 12lbs of water and glycogen, while losing most of it in PCT one month later....not me at least....

Its not as complicated as you think to deal with product movement. I mean hell, how many tons of "AK47" come in from Afghanistan all the time magically.... and that CAN be smelled by drug sniffing dogs and the likes. Havent seen any steroids sniffing dogs. No details, but man if you have creativity...or in some cases the lack thereof, many things are simple that the masses dont think of.

All I know is there are going to me some czech peeps making some pretty good bank...

[MC Gun]

this is anabolic minds go post on natty boards if you support the FDA you are in the wrong place stupid. wait till they take all you supplements they are currently using a list that will take 12% of all supplements and antioxidants off the supplement list and put them into the medicine list. You will still be arguing for the FDA without any real studies. the people who back the FDA should go do something they actually believe in and stand up for not hassle the people on here losers. pity your backbone doesnt have some iron in it too.

[jherman08]

Havent seen any steroids sniffing dogs..

Found it

[Dwight Schrute]

this is anabolic minds if you support the FDA you are in the wrong place stupid.

Uh, don't think so....

I fully support them in enforcing testing procedures.

[MC Gun]

Uh, don't think so....

I fully support them in enforcing testing procedures.

l have not meant to offend anyone my words were directed at the FDA not anyone here. l have said my views and l will keep it at that.
l hope that this about correct labelling and not about a witch hunt to take away all the good supplements. Take a look at this site "the pulse of freedom"
http://aahf.nonprofitsoapbox.com/ind...d=12&Itemid=41

[gymbo123]

Sorry bro, no one's going to want to spend time washing chuck and bubba's underwear in prison just because jim-bo wants to gain 12lbs of water and glycogen, while losing most of it in PCT one month later....not me at least....

12lbs. of water and glycogen? Then losing most of it a month later?? Clearly you're one of these people who don't know what they're doing with PH/DS and therefore one of the people causing this ban to take place..

[hardknock]

12lbs. of water and glycogen? Then losing most of it a month later?? Clearly you're one of these people who don't know what they're doing with PH/DS and therefore one of the people causing this ban to take place..

Clearly, I must be an idiot. Hell, probably as blind as stevie wonder. With the 400++ logs that I have witnessed on 8 or 9 sites over the past 8 years that have mostly been stating the exact same thing which I stated..."gained xxxlbs but lost xxx lbs two months later"

These same "go getters" are the same size, mostly, that they were 6 years ago when they were running designers, prohormones, steroids, sh!t on a stick, etc. It's not the roids fault, it's the idiot running them (that is what I meant)

When I ran m1t, pp, back in the hay day, i ALWAYS benefited TO THE MAX during my PCT and even years after I quit. I haven't touched an actual designer since around 05, early 06...and I've probably gained more than I did when I was using them (oh, actually i have because I got smarter with dieting and physical workouts)

I should have stated "MOST" because most people end up losing most of what they have gained during PCT when they run prohormones or designers or at least 3 months later.

I NEVER stated that people running actual "old school" steroids suffered the same fate. However, even those will garner no pluses if they cannot properly run a cycle.

And, if you believe that those "10lbs" johnny boy gained in 4 weeks are lbm then you sir have NO CLUE about androgen moa, or muscle stimulation, or muscle growth.

Two many times that I have seen some kid on a board thinking that by taking a pill, he's gonna look like Frank Zane, Jay Cutler, Ronnie, Arnold, or Lee Haney, just to name a few....**** ain't happening without great dieting, great workouts, great rest, and a great support system around you. Oh, and great genetics don't hurt either. Get with it brother...

[dpfisher]

Let's discuss this then....what would you think would happen if you continuously, over a period of 10 years, continued to raise your baseline cholesterol to unbelievable supra-physiological levels?

Now, the average "large bodybuilder" does not take 2 cycles of superdrol to get, say, 280 freaking lbs. This comes from many, MANY years of cycles. So, if some of these "bros" are looking to get anywhere near this weight, with that type of BF%, while taking designers, then they are in for a world of hurt my friend...there is just no way around that....

How come when we talk about aspirin, manufactured by big pharma, and we say that years of taking it can cause stomach ulcers and liver damage, everyone jumps the bandwagon, but when we say years of orals can do the same, 80% want to jump the guy stating it?

That's actually really interesting, because I would think if you had enough cholesterol to be getting forced through and cutting stuff up you'd be having heart attack or brain clots before it ever got to that point. Does it crystallize in certain places or something?

[DAdams91982]

Yeah ok FDA rep where is your proof these are any worse than all the other crap in processed foods. what compounds are you saying cause these problems and what dosages and where are the definitive studies on all this smart ass there are none show me one credible source that has double blind studies.

For **** sake man... shut your damn mouth. You OBVIOUSLY have no logical cell in your brain to argue with. WHAT THE **** DID I SAY ABOUT THESE COMPOUNDS? There are no studies on the **** you are ingesting, whereas real gear has a ton. Pull your head out of your ass and have a real conversation.

PLEASE reference me where the hell a bag of chex mix causes heart wall thickening.

[DAdams91982]

It's sad .. even here in an arena that we are pro bodybuilding, weight training, physique sculpting we continue to fight each other. I am at a loss for words now.

Dude, you joined a debate that has been swirling for years. I don't believe you have witnessed the underhandedness of this industry and are only gun hoe about what you can or cannot buy instead of thinking about the unknowing audience purchasing one thing, and taking an amphetamine.

I fought for the same freedoms you did in two wars, so don't give me that argument. I believe if it was your child consuming amphetamines for some fat loss you would be pretty damn irate. I HATE regulation, and find it usually causes more problems than not, but this industry is blinded by the multi billion dollar figure that is spent on supps at the expense of the consumers health. Reference ALRI hyperdrive, and PAL Aspire 36.

[DAdams91982]

this is anabolic minds go post on natty boards if you support the FDA you are in the wrong place stupid. wait till they take all you supplements they are currently using a list that will take 12% of all supplements and antioxidants off the supplement list and put them into the medicine list. You will still be arguing for the FDA without any real studies. the people who back the FDA should go do something they actually believe in and stand up for not hassle the people on here losers. pity your backbone doesnt have some iron in it too.

Please keep on going, your misguided attitude is making my morning cup of coffee a riot.

[DAdams91982]

Not that I don't believe you, but I've never heard of this. Can you elaborate or point me towards a source? Google is just giving me crap on skin treatments.

Read up on hypertension and plaque formation. The increased blood pressure causes blood cells to constantly slam into the arterial wall with each heart beat and subsequently scar the walls giving LDL a foot hold for increased plaque formation and in time heart disease. Both LDL elevation and hypertension comes from AAS, more so these methyl's being pedaled today.

http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/con...tract/18/2/123

[bioman]

"Read up on hypertension and plaque formation. The increased blood pressure causes blood cells to constantly slam into the arterial wall with each heart beat and subsequently scar the walls giving LDL a foot hold for increased plaque formation and in time heart disease. Both LDL elevation and hypertension comes from AAS, more so these methyl's being pedaled today."

Fight the good fight, D!

And that's just the tip of a very big iceberg, kiddies. The impact that methyls have on liver synthesis of cholesterol has far reaching impacts on cardiovascular, endocrine and even mental health. Then there are issues with these highly androgenic compounds...say "400 x more potent than test" being the typical selling point...inducing thickening of the heart walls leading to Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy at young ages. Ever wonder why you get short of breath on some of these cycles? Ever wonder what these WWF and WWE wrestlers keel over from at age 45? HCM. Learn it or live it.

I'm not going to argue your "right to take whatever", because really...I don't care if you kill yourself pursuing vanity and I know enough to get whatever I want, whenever I want it. But for God's sake man, learn a little about what you're putting in your body and stop believing everything the designer pushers tell you. That's every bit as bad as Drs going solely by the shiny pamphlets they get from pharmacuetical reps.

[Harry Manback]

i guess one way to sum it all up: Ignorance is bliss.


I'll admit, upon first hearing of all this FDA business I was a bit uneducated and disappointed. But further investigation made me wise. What you guys above me and 5150 and a few others are saying makes plenty of sense. I am in fact glad that there are a few of you who are as you said bioman, fighting the good fight. For the few of us who think before we act, thank you.

[DAdams91982]

"Read up on hypertension and plaque formation. The increased blood pressure causes blood cells to constantly slam into the arterial wall with each heart beat and subsequently scar the walls giving LDL a foot hold for increased plaque formation and in time heart disease. Both LDL elevation and hypertension comes from AAS, more so these methyl's being pedaled today."

Fight the good fight, D!

And that's just the tip of a very big iceberg, kiddies. The impact that methyls have on liver synthesis of cholesterol has far reaching impacts on cardiovascular, endocrine and even mental health. Then there are issues with these highly androgenic compounds...say "400 x more potent than test" being the typical selling point...inducing thickening of the heart walls leading to Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy at young ages. Ever wonder why you get short of breath on some of these cycles? Ever wonder what these WWF and WWE wrestlers keel over from at age 45? HCM. Learn it or live it.

I'm not going to argue your "right to take whatever", because really...I don't care if you kill yourself pursuing vanity and I know enough to get whatever I want, whenever I want it. But for God's sake man, learn a little about what you're putting in your body and stop believing everything the designer pushers tell you. That's every bit as bad as Drs going solely by the shiny pamphlets they get from pharmacuetical reps.

Damn fine way to put it in perspective Bio. Seems as though people do not want to admit that adverse effects can come from our holy line of supplements. Taking an advertisement of a company out to make money as gospel about a compound that has only been given to gerbils and monkeys.

[bigmoe65]

Taking an advertisement of a company out to make money as gospel about a compound that has only been given to gerbils and monkeys.

These are the buyers correct?

[DAdams91982]

These are the buyers correct?

No, I mean a compound pulled from vida that has no human studies.