done with orals-only, planning the real deal

[UnrealMachine]

"that time" is coming for me around January 2009 and by now i've recognized that while orals work and can work very well, the toxicity limits duration and dosage too much. So it's time for that first test cycle.

What i've got is Test E 300mg/mL giving me 600mg ew which is nice because I'm >200 pounds

The biggest variable I am throwing into this is a Superdrol pulse for 6 weeks. This would be at 4x a week 10/20/20/20/20/20 or so, ~45minutes preworkout. SD is by far the best DS I have used and I like pulsing. Test should take 4 weeks to kick but maybe 5-6 to "fully" kick so the SD can take me there but still be dropped a week early if i feel like it.

to summarize:
Test E 600mg ew 1-12
SD pulse 4x week 10/20/20/20/20/20
PCT would be nolva 40/40/20/20 starting week 15. I usually use nolva, works well enough at lower doses, and who can pass up 18$ bottles...

Not decided on whether I should get adex or not? I've never bloated up in a real noticable way so it's not really a concern.


I'm 224 right now and maybe 9% bodyfat and want use this to take me to 245 and <10% for next summer. I respond very well to SD so really I anticipate to gain 10-15 pounds in the first 6 weeks and then have 8 weeks to build on that and make it lean and keepable.

any comments, thoughts on the pulse, i figure i'm a guinea pig for a pulse kickstart but it sounds good to me

 

[dg806]

If you have never done a test cycle, I would recommend doing it solo to see how you respond to it. Throwing another substance in there, you won't know what it is if something doesn't go right.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Well i've used SD before, i know what to expect, and it's timed so that it drops when the test is fully kicked in. I'm not prone to high blood pressure, hairloss, gyno, nothing. The way I see it, i still get 8 weeks to see how I respond to it, but i'll get to capitalize on some impressive SD gains.

What do you think would go wrong? I think oral kickstart is pretty standard even on first test cycle.

 

[Prometherion]

I think an oral to kickstart is fine. Now, I'm not sold on the idea of pulsing, so I'll leave that up to you and your research.

About the cycle, seems fine, maybe a tad high on the test but no biggie. PistonPump recommended to me to use letro instead of Adex as it's a better value basically. A lot of people seem to prefer Adex though. Either way I think if you can, you should have something just in case something were to arise.

PCT seems fine, but have you ever used Clomid?

Oh yeah, welcome to the real darkside

 

[UnrealMachine]

I think an oral to kickstart is fine. Now, I'm not sold on the idea of pulsing, so I'll leave that up to you and your research.

About the cycle, seems fine, maybe a tad high on the test but no biggie. PistonPump recommended to me to use letro instead of Adex as it's a better value basically. A lot of people seem to prefer Adex though. Either way I think if you can, you should have something just in case something were to arise.

PCT seems fine, but have you ever used Clomid?

Oh yeah, welcome to the real darkside

most people are recommended 500mg of test but most people weigh 185 pounds while i am 225

(225lbs/185lbs)(500mg test) = 608mg

seems good to me . I've seen 155 pounders recommended 500mg of test on their first cycle. Considering i've done about 5 oral cycles and I need to dose high, i was close to running 750 for this one.

Letro sounds good, a better value because it's way stronger then. I have only heard adex repeatedly for test cycles, Letro never occured to me.

I have never used clomid, I think i will at some point because it seems more trusted among vets. But for now I have nolva that's good and cheap and proven with me.

I am very happy to be on the real darkside! I've been looking forward to this for a long time.

I got myself 50x 3mL syringes with 1.5" 20g needles to draw with (test in vials)
and 50x needles that are 1.0" and 23g to pin with. And alcohol swabs. Of course. I've memorized the pinning technique.. maybe you guys can critique

swab injection site, swab vial top
draw 1mL air in syringe w/20g needle
poke in vial, push out 1mL air into vial
draw 1mL oil, invert, switch to 23g needle, get rid of air
relax muscle, poke self, aspirate, 10sec to inject, wait 10 sec, remove needle

dispose of properly

massage site, ice if necessary.

i've heard to inject into the site that you work that day to disperse the oil. Maybe its exaggerated, maybe it's legit, i'll see.

 

[Prometherion]

Injection is right on.

You may want 1.5s to inject with though, especially if you use glutes. I've been using 1.5 23g and it's no problem at all.


Sounds like you'll get to your goals no problem. Do you plan to compete ever?

 

[UnrealMachine]

Injection is right on.

You may want 1.5s to inject with though, especially if you use glutes. I've been using 1.5 23g and it's no problem at all.


Sounds like you'll get to your goals no problem. Do you plan to compete ever?

I'll be sure to get it in deep for glute shots, but i was mostly going to rotate delts, just seems easier for me to hit

nah i won't compete. It's really hard for me to get my bodyfat down, this is pretty much my lowest bodyfat ever, so precontest prep would blow for me, also it's time consuming and doesn't pay much if you're not at the top, and I don't want to do the doses and durations necessary to get anywhere even halfway to the top.

The thought has crossed my mind for more localized competitions, but not anytime soon. Gotta work on my degree first.

 

[Prometherion]

Oh yeah Unreal, one other thing about the inject.... always wash your hands thoroughly before the injection. Can't be too sanitary.

 

[trend747]

A very good cycle. I'd run the SD full out... not even pulse it... 600mg a week on the Test...

I use clomid... I like it, and it's just been around for awhile, so...

And if you're already 224 @ 9%, you are a big mother. You should be competing. Especially after this cycle. That's definitely novice NPC level.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Oh yeah Unreal, one other thing about the inject.... always wash your hands thoroughly before the injection. Can't be too sanitary.

good word of advice, I will try to handle everything proper. An infection is the last thing I want.

A very good cycle. I'd run the SD full out... not even pulse it... 600mg a week on the Test...

I use clomid... I like it, and it's just been around for awhile, so...

And if you're already 224 @ 9%, you are a big mother. You should be competing. Especially after this cycle. That's definitely novice NPC level.

I got decent size, this is from summer
http://i35.tinypic.com/1z1fs7k.jpg
I need muscle maturity, an improvement in muscle density that will develop veins and striations. And I need to be a bit bigger.

I've found orals cycles to be only modestly helpful. My body flat-out doesn't respond to several compounds, and others still need to be dosed high... SD is really the only thing that made me feel really on.

About the SD when you say run it full out, how many weeks. The reason SD hasn't been used to kickstart is most people limit it to 3 weeks so test isn't fully kicked in. I love SD enough to run it 4, but I do like pulses and figure it might be nice to stretch it out longer in case the test really kicks towards week 5 or 5.5.

I guess my question then is do you think 4 weeks of SD is long enough for the test to be fully kicked in? I wouldn't want a week of droop between ending SD and TestE kicking in... see from these questions, you can tell i have never run injects.

 

[trend747]

About the SD when you say run it full out, how many weeks. The reason SD hasn't been used to kickstart is most people limit it to 3 weeks so test isn't fully kicked in. I love SD enough to run it 4, but I do like pulses and figure it might be nice to stretch it out longer in case the test really kicks towards week 5 or 5.5.

I guess my question then is do you think 4 weeks of SD is long enough for the test to be fully kicked in? I wouldn't want a week of droop between ending SD and TestE kicking in... see from these questions, you can tell i have never run injects.

I would treat it no different than your classic d-bol cycle. I would run it for 4 weeks straight, no pulse. That Test-E should kick in within two to three weeks...

Or... you could run six weeks of Epi... You should see nice lean gains from it around week four to five... it would be pretty clean...

I'd go with Epi the more I think about it. I friggin' love the stuff... along with the test-e... oh man

 

[trend747]

This is what I call Trend747's Ultimate Beginner Cycle...

You're obviously not a beginner, but you'd do well with it.

Simple, and effective.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/106212-test-e-cycle.html#post1602454

 

[UnrealMachine]

I would treat it no different than your classic d-bol cycle. I would run it for 4 weeks straight, no pulse. That Test-E should kick in within two to three weeks...

Or... you could run six weeks of Epi... You should see nice lean gains from it around week four to five... it would be pretty clean...

I'd go with Epi the more I think about it. I friggin' love the stuff... along with the test-e... oh man

4 weeks of SD I would run like this

10/20/20/30

I'm definitely going with SD and not Epi, I don't really respond to Epi. It made me hard and veiny, but I put on absolutely no mass and strength. The last time I ran it, in my 4th week my last set of bench was exactly the same as first week of cycle. On my 4th week of SD, my last set on bench was up 50 pounds and a rep.

 

[trend747]

4 weeks of SD I would run like this

10/20/20/30

I'm definitely going with SD and not Epi, I don't really respond to Epi. It made me hard and veiny, but I put on absolutely no mass and strength. The last time I ran it, in my 4th week my last set of bench was exactly the same as first week of cycle. On my 4th week of SD, my last set on bench was up 50 pounds and a rep.

That's perfect with the SD. Yeah, you gotta know your body. Sounds like you do. If Epi don't work for ya, then scrap it.

I'm going through a cutter, that's why I love Epi... but for strength, it's not really a good option.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Yeah the first time i used Epi it was on a cutter, an 8 week pulse. My cals were low and bodyweight dropping fast so i wasn't surprised that I was losing strength and a little size, but it gave me some good hardness, felt mildly pumped 24/7, and was the best for making veins pop.

But nothing has made me into an animal like SD. I can't wait for this one to start.

 

[Erekose]

If you are done with orals, then why bother this cycle? IMHO kick-starting is being unnecessarily impatient.

Why do do a classic combo like Test and Boldenone?

I'm seven weeks in on mine and its been great. Smooth, steady gains. No kick-start and I am up 17 pounds with no water retention (using Letro).

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

If you are done with orals, then why bother this cycle? IMHO kick-starting is being unnecessarily impatient.

Why do do a classic combo like Test and Boldenone?

I'm seven weeks in on mine and its been great. Smooth, steady gains. No kick-start and I am up 17 pounds with no water retention (using Letro).

You know, I gotta agree. If you really want to kick start with something, Test Prop FTMFW!

 

[hyper24]

Honestly I reckon drop the superdrol. Take it from someone who has done a test cycle and a test cyle with SD.
With the test alone I felt amazing, i felt like I could take on the world everyday.
With the second cycle I used SD and it gave me that lethargic feeling, it totally destroyed the king dck feeling from test and it made the cycle so un bearable. Lucky it was only a few weeks for that feeling to go away. In my opinion, if you get lethargic from superdrol then dont run it. Try and get some dbols.

 

[UnrealMachine]

If you are done with orals, then why bother this cycle? IMHO kick-starting is being unnecessarily impatient.

Why do do a classic combo like Test and Boldenone?

I'm seven weeks in on mine and its been great. Smooth, steady gains. No kick-start and I am up 17 pounds with no water retention (using Letro).

done with orals-only but if I can put on 15 pounds during the first 4 weeks and then build on it, sounds good to me.

Test-only I am too impatient for, I really like the idea of a kickstart. If i were to drop it an add a second injectable such as Deca or EQ, then I wouldn't know how each compound is working. I've never run test before so I'd like to see test by itself.

I am just guessing that I won't even respond to EQ. The weaker steroids in general have no noticeable effect on me. Really I am hoping that Test works well for me.

You know, I gotta agree. If you really want to kick start with something, Test Prop FTMFW!

I would consider a test prop kickstart, but it's not something I have. Well i could get it. But really, if I respond well to SD, i don't see why i wouldn't use it for a kick start. I am just done with oral-only cycles, i think they are a useful component in injectable cycles.

Honestly I reckon drop the superdrol. Take it from someone who has done a test cycle and a test cyle with SD.
With the test alone I felt amazing, i felt like I could take on the world everyday.
With the second cycle I used SD and it gave me that lethargic feeling, it totally destroyed the king dck feeling from test and it made the cycle so un bearable. Lucky it was only a few weeks for that feeling to go away. In my opinion, if you get lethargic from superdrol then dont run it. Try and get some dbols.

Yes that is how some people respond to SD. Extreme lethargy, back pumps, loss of libido, harsh shutdown and an unenjoyable pct.

Fortunately for me SD doesn't give me any of those. I don't get much in the way of side effects. I think this has something to do with how I do not respond to certain steroids.

I felt my best "on cycle" feeling ever on SD. Physically, mentally, best ever feeling. I cannot imagine how good it will be stacked with Test.



i would consider running an all-injectable stack of Test E and Deca but then i wouldn't know which is doing which... i really do plan on trying them out one by one. Deca and then tren next.

 

[trend747]

i would consider running an all-injectable stack of Test E and Deca but then i wouldn't know which is doing which... i really do plan on trying them out one by one. Deca and then tren next.

All injectable is the way to go, but one step at a time. Test-e and some tren ace, and tren h... dang, what a combo. It's the shizzle.

 

[Erekose]

done with orals-only but if I can put on 15 pounds during the first 4 weeks and then build on it, sounds good to me.

Test-only I am too impatient for, I really like the idea of a kickstart. If i were to drop it an add a second injectable such as Deca or EQ, then I wouldn't know how each compound is working. I've never run test before so I'd like to see test by itself.

I am just guessing that I won't even respond to EQ. The weaker steroids in general have no noticeable effect on me. Really I am hoping that Test works well for me.

I know what you are saying, but consider that you are not going to gain 15 lbs. from the oral kick-start and then put another 15 lbs on top of that from running test. A good cycle for someone your size, with clean gains of minimal bloat should be around 20lbs considering diet, training and of course genetics.
Also don't knock EQ. I've used everything out there (I competed nationally in the late 80s and early 90s...those were different days...) - it's a good clean compound.
Good clean gains are better than fast ones that leave just as fast.

 

[UnrealMachine]

I know what you are saying, but consider that you are not going to gain 15 lbs. from the oral kick-start and then put another 15 lbs on top of that from running test. A good cycle for someone your size, with clean gains of minimal bloat should be around 20lbs considering diet, training and of course genetics.
Also don't knock EQ. I've used everything out there (I competed nationally in the late 80s and early 90s...those were different days...) - it's a good clean compound.
Good clean gains are better than fast ones that leave just as fast.

You are right that I should not knock EQ yet. But, it is on the weaker end of the spectrum, and that typically does not work well for me.

This is a history of my designers:
Winztrol: nothing
Halodrol-50: nothing
Epistane: pumps but 0 mass, 0 strength
PheraPlex: mass attained, but low quality, not much strength until 3-4th weeks
Superdrol: tremendous mass and strength increases

I know from reading that EQ is a hit or miss compound because I've read countless posts where people think it is a waste of time. Then i've read people who run it at 400 ew and pack on weight as if they're on test.

I think I can gain 15 pounds during the first 4 weeks on SD. That's how much I gained last time on SD, and it was only 3.5 weeks, and it came after I had already been putting on weight. In a 7 week span I put on 23 pounds. I expect the test component to add 5 more pounds and then make it all hard and keepable. This is all just conjecture really.

Bottom line is I'm looking for that clean 20 pounds you mentioned. And yeah, seeing gains disappear after an all-orals cycle is why i needed to make the jump to injects, because a few weeks isn't long enough for my body to get used to the weight and keep it.


Maybe i should ask, how would you go about planning a cycle to net me 20 pounds, considering my main criteria is that I want to try out injectables 1 at a time? This still means shorter esters could be used to kick, or at the tail end.

 

[Emkay237]

DROP THE PH's.. if your going to join my world you have to go full force or go home IMO. Right now your trying to win a marathon with cement shoes on. If your going to use real AAS then USE REAL AAS.

1-12 Test E 500mg's EW
1-4 Dbol 50mg's ED

week 15 start your pct
Clomid 50/50/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20

Time and time again this cycle puts on real mass and its THE BEST first cycle IMO. Eat big, GET BIG. BTW if you decide to go through with this. Welcome to the darkside brother!

 

[knucks3man]

I dint read through all of this thread, but nolva alone is not going to be good enough for pct. Clomid is needed in there as well.

And, orals are the "real deal", and are stronger than most injectables.

Anyhow, I suggest, doing Test E @ 500mg week 1-10. (shoot 2x per week @ 250mg).

D-bol @ 20md ED for weeks 1-4
Nolva @ 5mg ED throughout weeks 1-10, maybe 10mg depends on how nips feel.

 

[Emkay237]

WRONG.. you dont use a SERM during cycle, you use an AI like Adex or letro, you have more research to do about gear before you give advice..test E can be used for only 10 weeks but i reccommend that it should be extended to 12, and 20mg's of dbol ED is NOTHING.. If you cant handle 50 then bump it down to 40. split it into 2 dosages and youll be fine. And i didnt say nolva alone for PCT if you read my post its along side Clomid. GO TO ANY FORUM clomid and nolva is typical PCT protocol. If your not g2g after 4 weeks of clmid and nolva then extend.

 

[sfearl1]

there's some good advice here. my first inj. cycle was dbol and test e followed by tor for my post cycle. gained about 20lbs but some of it was water. adex did nothing for me. i use letro now and that stuff keeps me dry. i would personally go with test prop kickstart for 2-3 weeks with the test enan but that's bc i'm finished with orals and their toxicity.

 

[Irish Cannon]

DROP THE PH's.. if your going to join my world you have to go full force or go home IMO. Right now your trying to win a marathon with cement shoes on. If your going to use real AAS then USE REAL AAS.

1-12 Test E 500mg's EW
1-4 Dbol 50mg's ED

week 15 start your pct
Clomid 50/50/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20

Time and time again this cycle puts on real mass and its THE BEST first cycle IMO. Eat big, GET BIG. BTW if you decide to go through with this. Welcome to the darkside brother!

Are you kidding me, dude? SD kicks Dbols ass. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's horse crap. I hate this old-school mentality. I've used both Dbol and Adrol and had better gains off of Phera-Plex than either of those two.

SD is a "real AAS" and some of you guys need to get that in your heads.

SD isn't a PH, it's an active steroid.

 

[knucks3man]

No I do not need more research to do. Nolva can be taken during cycle at min dosage to help with gyno. Adex can be used, and is better, however much more expensive. Nolva can be used, and works, so you please do more research before jumping on someboys suggestion, just because YOU feel it wont work.

An orig post had nothing about clomid in it, hence I said add clomid. I did not direct any post to you, so hop off.

 

[Erekose]

You are right that I should not knock EQ yet. But, it is on the weaker end of the spectrum, and that typically does not work well for me.

This is a history of my designers:
Winztrol: nothing
Halodrol-50: nothing
Epistane: pumps but 0 mass, 0 strength
PheraPlex: mass attained, but low quality, not much strength until 3-4th weeks
Superdrol: tremendous mass and strength increases

I know from reading that EQ is a hit or miss compound because I've read countless posts where people think it is a waste of time. Then i've read people who run it at 400 ew and pack on weight as if they're on test.

I think I can gain 15 pounds during the first 4 weeks on SD. That's how much I gained last time on SD, and it was only 3.5 weeks, and it came after I had already been putting on weight. In a 7 week span I put on 23 pounds. I expect the test component to add 5 more pounds and then make it all hard and keepable. This is all just conjecture really.

Bottom line is I'm looking for that clean 20 pounds you mentioned. And yeah, seeing gains disappear after an all-orals cycle is why i needed to make the jump to injects, because a few weeks isn't long enough for my body to get used to the weight and keep it.


Maybe i should ask, how would you go about planning a cycle to net me 20 pounds, considering my main criteria is that I want to try out injectables 1 at a time? This still means shorter esters could be used to kick, or at the tail end.

If you want to try a pure injectable regimen and keep it simple I would recommend 500mg a week of Test E. It's simple and solid. Get and AI such as Arimidex or Aromasin in case you get too puffy or develop gyno. Don't use it unless you have to (I have to). You really don't need a test prop front load, but if you want...In any case Test will aromatize and make you hold some water, keep that in mind while counting the pounds.

I am not a patient sort either, so I understand, but set yourself up for the 12-16-20 week mentality of an injectable cycle rather than the 3-5 week oral experiences you have had. It's hard not to get greedy - after all if we weren't all greedy we'd be happy with normal Joe musculatures and never go to the gym.

Test will take 2-3 weeks to kick in but when it does it will be worth the short wait. Mine kicked in at about 18 days and with the EQ the pumps have been unreal. In the meantime get your protein up to about 400g a day.

Also in regards to SD and its ilk; some of these are outstanding AAS that I would put up against the big boys (A50, Dbol, etc) any day. I consider the gains from M-drol, etc very real. When I return to live in the US I will go back to what is legal and be happy with it.

The big difference between an injectable cycle and oral is health. This precludes the use of harsher compounds such as Tren (which IMO have no place in a non-competitor's program).

 

[UnrealMachine]

couple remarks

1 is that PHs are mostly steroids, not precursors to anything but direct oral AAS and a lot of them are very strong. I'm very happy with SD, as i said it raised my bench by +50 pounds and a rep in less than a month, if Dbol can do that i'll be impressed. I have extra SD to spare and no Dbol and if i did have Dbol i wouldn't run it lower than 40mg. It's the breakfast of champions and i know it can be dosed relatively heavy especially if you're 220+

I've used what, 6 compounds now (Designers) so there's no "virgin receptor" **** going on here, it's my first injectable cycle but i'm a good size and don't respond to most compounds. Not just steroids but others, like stimulants, just don't effect me.

2, i know a lot of vets swear by clomid over nolva for pct while in PH/DS based boards there's more talk of nolva. But i usually don't see a combination of the two run. If i've run a bunch of cycles before with Nolva and recovered fine, what's wrong with using it again, what does clomid bring to the table?

I feel if it really improved recovery to the point of retaining more gains, that we would have preached about Clomid instead of nolva at the more DS/PH based boards like here.


Last comment is that i'm down with injectables to add some long term, keepable mass, i was thinking of future cycles including EQ and Deca, long duration HCG cycles... I am down to stretch some genetic limits in the next few years.

 

[UnrealMachine]

I am just bumping to ask if anyone really thinks nolva needs to be run in conjunction with clomid? Else I will just do nolva.

 

[Prometherion]

Well, clomid will be much better at re-starting your HPTA and Nolva is better at controlling your estrogen. This is why you see many AAS vets prefer clomid if they don't have problems with estrogen.

 

[sfearl1]

you'll get alot of people saying not to run an ai in post cycle but if i were to come off right now i'd run clomid and taper letro down throughout post cycle. also, i would run an 8 week post cycle-AT LEAST. i don't think 4 weeks is enough whatsoever

 

[Emkay237]

cosign with prometherion

 

[UnrealMachine]

Ok. Well i've never had estro related problems but then again using compounds like Epi, SD and PP i should never have estro sides anyway. I'll keep the nolva on hand, but plan out a clomid PCT

how about this for PCT...

Clomid
300mg first 3 days
100mg next 10 days
50mg next 10 days
Read this one somewhere, sounded good.

 

[trend747]

Ok. Well i've never had estro related problems but then again using compounds like Epi, SD and PP i should never have estro sides anyway. I'll keep the nolva on hand, but plan out a clomid PCT

how about this for PCT...

Clomid
300mg first 3 days
100mg next 10 days
50mg next 10 days
Read this one somewhere, sounded good.

Yep. Right on the money. I do 90/90/90... but I say make the plan, and execute it. Once you get that cycle over with, you'll know your body better and can lower the dosage next time if you need to.

 

[Emkay237]

holy crap.. clomid at 300mg's ed is going to give you some serious issues and is uneccessary.. your going to have vision issues and your emotions are going to be on a rollercoaster ride.. clomid at 100mg's ed i had vision issues and made me feel like a woman i cant even imagine 300.. if i was you id drop that dramaticly just my 2c's

 

[UnrealMachine]

huh, it's pretty common to run clomid really high the first couple days.

Maybe to build up concentration quickly..? It has a very long half life (5 days?!)

 

[Prometherion]

I think it's alright to run it that way. Personally, I more often see it run at 300 only the first day, but aside from that I think it will be fine. Like trend said, have a plan and use it. Then you will learn and know how to use it next time.