opinions on shirts/suits/etc.
- 08-25-2005, 11:35 AM
opinions on shirts/suits/etc.
i'm curious what those who compete in PL/are fans of PL think about the shirts and suits that are worn .. they obviously can give a guy a HUGE HUGE HUGE increase in his lifts, but i realize of course you can't just put on a shirt and expect an automatic 200lb increase in your bench, you have to learn to use the shirt
but even though it is a "skill" that must be learned, there is a big argument to be made that the person himself is not responsible for a good portion of the lift
what does everyone think about these shirts/suits in terms of undermining the true purpose of the sport?
i personally don't really have an opinion i'm just curious what some of yours are
- 08-25-2005, 12:10 PM
I have a couple of very good pl friends at my gym. To them it seems it is just part of powerlifting. Just another thing you have to do. I personally think raw lifts are much much more impressive but they don't see it that way.
The thing that kills me is watching these guys in their bench shirts. The bar on the way up flies up to halfway point then bamm....its like they hit a brick wall. The shirt at that point is not very active and that right there shows you that they couldn't even think about touching that weight w/o it.
And I personally am in to bodybuilding. But who are we to talk. With out chemical enhancement none of us could ever even look like frank zane, serge nubret, and let alone ronnie and jay. So not to say what we do is wrong but thats just how I try to view it. With or without, squatting 800 dl700 etc. still impressive!
- 08-25-2005, 12:39 PM
well lets not kid ourselves PLers are using gear as well
i think one could make an argument that suits are kind of like synthol use as opposed to steriod use
08-25-2005, 12:50 PM
I would agree on both accounts. Wonder what exnihilo would have to say?Originally Posted by glenihan
But then again you have to work hard still to even use that lifting gear properly. Synthol doesn't require hard work. On Second thought I might have to disagree with you there glen. I see your point but these guys using suits still bust their butts in the gym and train as often as we do, except they do quite a bit more weight. I don't think I could disrespect powerlifters that much as to say using lifting gear is the same as bb's using synthol.
08-25-2005, 02:07 PM
personally, i think suits, shirts, etc. are all crapola. once again, i bring up the case of gene the 1000+ bench guy. struggles with 405 RAW on the bench but puts up 1000+ with a shirt on with ease. if a guy beats you on a lift, you should KNOW for a fact that it was because he was stronger than you, not because he knows how to use suit or shirt better and has become a master of weight manipulation.
08-25-2005, 02:25 PM
Agreed. I quite honestly don't understand why they're allowed.Originally Posted by Beelzebub
08-25-2005, 02:47 PM
actually synthol does require some work .. many people are under the misconception that synthol is oil that permanently stays in the muscle .. this is untrue .. synthol will stretch the fascia which then needs to be filled in with new muscle .. this is why you need to be in a heavily anabolic state and increase synthol doses over the course of 4-6 weeks .. proper use will result in eg 1-1.5 inch gain in the armsOriginally Posted by max-rot98
so you can't just shoot synthol and get gains.... but its still probably not the best analogy to a PL suit .. i don't think there actually is a BB equivilant
08-25-2005, 02:52 PM
I'm down on the shirts and suits. I thought the point of power "lifting" was to "lift the weight", not to have the shirt increase the weight you can lift.
Now, given, the shirt doesn't lift the weight for you and you do have to learn how to lift correctly in a shirt, but IMHO, anything over single-ply (which basically just keeps shoulders in their sockets) is retarded.
08-25-2005, 06:02 PM
Where did you get that he struggles with 405 raw?
Originally Posted by Beelzebub
08-25-2005, 06:10 PM
LOL, i knew this post was coming as soon as I saw the forum. I just gotta ask. All of you bashing gear.....Have you ever tried it? I am a powerlifter but im doing bodybuilding right now to get in shape. I dont wanna be the fat powerlifter stereotype. I use bench shirts, squat suits, and knee wraps. If Grifter chimes in on this post, he will let you know that its definitely not an instant increase. He couldnt even do a rep in one of my shirts. If i was going to a meet and no one else was lifting equipped, i wouldnt either. Im not going to go and lift against equipped lifters without gear. Powerlifting is just a totally different sport from bodybuilding. Yes, powerlifters do use steroids but not to the extent of bb'ers. Ronnie coleman and many others would be nowhere near their current sizes without the extensive useage just like the top bench and squat records would be no where near what they are without shirts and suits.....so whats the differences? I'm not trying to start any trouble. I just don't see why ya'll have to bash something that you haven't tried and obviously dont know much about. It's like when people who know nothing about roid useage bash it, its annoying right?
08-25-2005, 06:17 PM
08-25-2005, 06:49 PM
Check out the thread below this one. Titled competitors. I saw gene bench. I explain it there.Originally Posted by Ant.
08-25-2005, 07:08 PM
I understand that that is all part of the sport these days...it just doesn't make any sense to me. Other than safety equipment, I don't see the purpose of lift enhancing equipment--other than some of the "other" gearOriginally Posted by Ant.
What is the purpose of lifting gear? (And unless you're in singly ply, I don't want to hear "safety", lol)
08-25-2005, 07:08 PM
Works for me. Just wondering. Im not a Gene Rychlak fan by any means. I like Ryan Kenelly and Scot Mendleson (716 raw bench....gotta respect that).
Originally Posted by max-rot98
08-25-2005, 07:14 PM
You just have to be a powerlifter for it to make sense. I didnt get it when I first started. Takes time. I do lift in single ply. lol, you are thinking about old single play gear my friend. I have a single ply shirt that gives me at least 75 pounds and I dont even have it completely mastered. Lifting gear makes powerlifters lift more, steroids make bobybuilders bigger. Thats all there is to it. Neither are gonna go anywhere so there is no use complaining about it. If lifting raw is what you like...do it. I like to lift equipped so thats what I will do.
Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
08-25-2005, 07:15 PM
I respect what the shirted benchers do but raw strength interest me more. Genes 1005 bench is amazing but seeing kennelly press 600lbs for reps raw or scott mendelson blast up 700lbs inspires me much more. Because I love benching raw. I've never tried a shirt and probably never will. Like I said though I still like watching the equipped lifters do their thing to.
08-25-2005, 07:18 PM
Well put.....and you didnt even have to say that suits, shirts, etc are all crapola, lol.
Originally Posted by Jstrong20
08-25-2005, 07:29 PM
Single ply giving you 75lbs...wow...LOL.Originally Posted by Ant.
I, too, am a fan of raw lifts There...that better?
But, i do have to add this, PLers do their fair share of gear as well, bro. I know quite a few PLers and some who hold a few WR's, and my god they use lots of gear, too. 5-6g test a week + 1g/wk tren + orals and then you've got GH and slin, too. They ain't holdin' back
08-25-2005, 07:45 PM
lol...hey, gotta do what you gotta do.
Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
08-25-2005, 09:38 PM
The most I've ever used were single ply Inzer and Titan Suits. I think that equipment has its place in powerlifting, but these ridiculous numbers of plys and materials kinda wears on me a bit. Of course, different strokes for different folks. If I were to compete again, the most I would use would maybe be a double ply viking suit from Dave Tate and Co. I believe that the equipment should only be used after you have already built a strong foundation. My best squat in a meet was 520 with full equipment, but I could also squat about 460 raw, also one has to get in the 'groove' to use the equipment to its maximum. Of course, I've been out of the game for a while and all these new companies and types of gear has my head spinning because the only options when I lifting were inzer and titan suits.
With respect to federations, there are so many feds, both with tested and non-tested lifing, (I would lift in the non-tested because I don't want the unpleasant surprise of testing postive for any supplements I may be taking or may take in the future). I'm kinda torn between lifting in both raw and assisted because I love to see how naturally strong I am and just how much weight I can move with all the help I can get to supplement my natural strength. So I guess, my stance is just lift regardless of how you do it.
08-25-2005, 09:51 PM
just what i think brudda. if you can't lift the weight raw and it takes the 'art of shirt manipulation' to put the weight up, then you didn't really lift the weight. JMO.Originally Posted by Ant.
nothing against the guys personally. kinda the same with BB'ing. if one guy is using 5+ grams of test, everyone else has too as well just to be a competitor. as with PL'ing, if one guys uses a crazy ass shirt to win, everyone else has too as well just to hang. but once again, comparing roids to suits ain't the same ballpark. when guys compete in the untested side, it ain't because they're popping CEE.
08-25-2005, 10:05 PM
Yea, i agree. Only reason I made that comparison was because someone compared gear to synthol....thats pretty damn insulting. I have seen this argument countless times on powerlifting boards so I just figured I would play around a little. It will never be settled. Glenihan would have opened up a huge can of worms if this board had more powerlifting members. Im out of this post....dont wanna make any enemies on here even though im just messin around.
Originally Posted by Beelzebub
08-25-2005, 10:41 PM
enemies? jeez, can noone debate anymore without declaring war?Originally Posted by Ant.
you stated your opinion, i stated mine. now, i've gotta do calf raises..........
08-25-2005, 11:22 PM
I think the "supportive" gear has gotten waaay out of control. It used to be that a bench shirt was to protect the pecs and delts from very heavy weights, NOT for artificially adding poundage to the lift. And definately not meant solely for lifters to BREAK IN/LEARN how to use the shirt to add 150+ lbs on thier bench presses. I feel the same about squat suits.
Even so, the single ply shirts today (Inzer Rage X, Titan Fury, Metal Viking, etc.) and the Inzer hardcore/Metal Viking squat suits can instantly add 50-100lbs depending on bench technique and can add far more once a lifter tweaks it/learns how to bench in it. Basically a guy can go from benching 400 raw, get a great shirt, learn how to use it and train his lockout, and turn into a 600lb bench presser in a year or less. This is why more and more people are breaking records ALONG with tearing tendons/muscles and breaking bones at an astonishing rate (they don't have the base strength to handle the weight the shirt gives them).
One thing you don't see rising much is the deadlift, which is due to a lack of advances in gear. Bolton and a few others are the only ones in the last decade that have come close or surpassed Heisey's 925(920 maybe?). Isn't that sad, Gene Rychlack (the best example of powerlifting at its WORST) benched 1005 yet the guy Raw benches half that and cannot deadlift anywhere near 1000. Plus that stupid tuft of hair just makes me wish he drops the bar and decapitates himself one of these days.
I feel raw lifts (belt, wraps, and a singlet) are a much better indicator of how strong PLers are, but sadly due to the incrase in technology we'll never go back to the old days where gear was for support only. I know a lifter who does 420 raw and recently benched 565 in a single-ply Inzer RageX shirt after 2 months of use. So now you either have to go all out (roided to the gills, 2-ply canvas/poly/denim) or lift RAW in a tested meet. Sucks but that is what happens when one PL federation splits into 20, each w/ their own rules. I won't even go into the crap-ass judging going on. All these bench records are touch-n-go, w/o a rack command, and IIRC, medelson's latest record bench was done with the spotter's hands on the bar during the ENTIRE descent! Then it was pressed and racked w/o a command.
08-26-2005, 01:50 AM
maybe just a double ply metal viking? that is top notch stuff dude.Originally Posted by UHCougar05
Performing maxes in gear 1) looks cooler due to awesome poundages 2) inflates ego [admit it to yourself] 3) taxes the CNS more, and, is a ****load harder to do 4) protects hips/pecs/shoulders, hurts spines/wrists/elbows
08-26-2005, 07:57 AM
i admit the suits to synthol comparasion was probably a poor one .. i don't think there is an apt analogy between PL suits and anything in BBOriginally Posted by Ant.
i didn't mean to start a war .. in fact i stated i really don't have an opinion on the matter i was kind of just playing devils advocate .. i like hearing both sides of the coin .. especially the side that supports the use of equipment since the arguments against equipment are fairly obvious .. this is a good thread and will continue to be a good thread as long as every one continues to play nicely stay in the thread Ant i guarantee as long as we all keep acting civil NO ONE will become enemies
08-26-2005, 12:36 PM
Yeah, I know it is the top notch stuff and it lasts a long time. Of course, I wouldn't jump just into the viking double ply. That would only be if I decided to go all out and compete in the open division, but my strength is a long way from me doing that, so I might just go with the single ply viking if I just wanted to compete every now and again. And I definitely agree with those points.Originally Posted by SilentScream27
08-26-2005, 02:40 PM
What kind of shirts are you all using? Is the Inzer denim shirt any good?
Or do I need to get something else?
08-26-2005, 11:31 PM
lol, im in the same boat as you with the calves man so I feel your pain. They just dont grow. I just said the enemies thing because I have seen threads like this get way out of hand on a lot of powerlifting forums. Looks like everyone here is a bit more civilized though. If you decide to comepete and have any questions, hit me up. You helped me out planning my cycle so I would like to return the favor.
Originally Posted by Beelzebub
08-26-2005, 11:33 PM
Will it be your first shirt? Denim is hard to learn so it will just piss you off as a first shirt. Something like a "loose" titan fury could work if you have someone to help you with it. The old Inzer blast shirts are pretty easy to learn but they have to be super tight to get much out of them. They work well as a first shirt though.
Originally Posted by jaybigboy34
08-26-2005, 11:37 PM
Yea, that seems to be the direction of powerlifting these days. All the feds wanna have all their different rules. Lots of bad judging on big lifts.
Originally Posted by screwbol
08-27-2005, 12:47 AM
Bump for Ant.'s suggestion. I would definitely go with a titan suit because the learning curve isn't nearly as steep as it is with an inzer and for the convenience factor of having a shirt that doesn't require the help of 4 superheavies to get into it. What kind of technique do you use to bench? If you are an arched-back bencher I would go with a loose titan F6, if not then I would go with the titan fury.Originally Posted by Ant.
08-27-2005, 08:02 AM
I have used the old blast shirts before, but it has been
a while. Do the open back shirts take 4 superheavyweights
to help put it on? That was what I was leaning towards something
like the open back so it would be easier to get on. (If they are easier)
08-27-2005, 09:13 AM
I've never used an open back shirt before, but I have heard that they are a bit easier to use because you only need one person to pull the back of the shirt to get it to fit right.Originally Posted by jaybigboy34
08-27-2005, 10:47 AM
alright, i was just looking at the competition homepage for the one i plan to do. it says a singlet is required for everyone. does that mean the raw lifters too? on the form, it says to declare whether you're doing 'raw' or 'assisted', then at the bottom it says everyone needs a singlet. so wtf?
and yeah ant, i need some tips for the bench. it's a push/pull meet so squats are out. i can probably get up to 600 or more by competition day in mid-october for the dead. but i've always been adjusted to benching for size and not for strength, elbows out and all that jazz. any tips for bench numbers? i'm gonna start doing elbows in next chest day and get used to it, but i'm sure there's more to it.
08-27-2005, 12:54 PM
the guys at ironaddicts will help you out, beelze.Originally Posted by Beelzebub
edit: In fact, if you can get your hands on a video camera to upload vids, exmgq would probably be more than happy to look and correct your form on all lifts, if any adjustments are needed.
08-27-2005, 04:12 PM
Yea, you are gonna need a singlet. Just pick up a wrestling singlet. What fed is it?
Lets see, have you tried to arch? You should be able to shorten your stroke by quite a few inches by arching. Also, tucking your shoulder blades under you will help too. Its all about the leverage. The one thing that will help you more than anything is leg drive but that takes a while to figure out how to make your legs increase your bench without your butt coming off the bench. kwyckemynd00 had the best idea with the video camera. Get up some videos and post them on some powerlifting boards and on here. It will take you a while to change from the elbows out touching high to elbows in touching low. Read the rules for your fed on how low they allow you to touch. THere are a lot of small things here and there that will give you some pounds but if you can get the videos, i could give you some pointers.
Originally Posted by Beelzebub
08-27-2005, 04:14 PM
I dont know exactly what your bench form is now, but keep your shoulder blades contracted as tight as possible, your traps should be driven into the bench. If you are flexible enough, try and get a really high arch, the middle/lower back wont even be touching the bench. The easiest way to set up like this is when you lay down on the bench, slide back until the bar is right over your chest while it is in the rack, then pull your feet back under you, digging your toes into the ground, your toes will be all that is touching the ground. Then push yourself back to where you want to be set up under the bar. Personally I dont have the flexibility to do this, my hip flexors always cramp up as it really stretches your hips out. The guys that are really good at this look like a rainbow by how arched they are. Then when in this position, keeping your shoulder blades contracted as tight as possible, have your partner help with the lift off. Keep your elbows around 45 degree to your body, just whatever is mostly comfortable, for me I bring the bar just below my pecs. It is kind of hard explaining the arch set up, the best way to learn is just watch alot of powerlifting clips and you will see how they do it. www.irongame.com has alot of good clips. I was just trying to find an article from www.elitefts.com by Louie Simmons on bench techniques, but they seem to have changed their site and I cant find any of the Louie Simmons articles.
08-27-2005, 04:18 PM
Yea, arching is tricky to figure out so go to irongame.com like Nate Dawg said and watch the vids. I will try to get a vid of me setting up my arch. I do it similar to how he explained. I also have the hip flexor cramping problems especially in meets after squats.
Originally Posted by Nate Dawg
08-27-2005, 04:26 PM
From what I hear, Beelze already has a "really short 'stroke'"Originally Posted by Ant.
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