ATD used as HCG

Ghosting

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I debated where to put this, please move it if necessary. Someone with Link (from Zelda) showed a link to ATD being prefered over HCG. The thread is now gone. Can someone please inform me of this? There has also been some debate using it on-cycle as people are calling it anti-androgenic because of the loss of sex drive. After reading this study, I see why the sex drive is gone, but the anti-androgenic I think is BS. Inform me.

Horm Behav. 1989 Mar;23(1):10-26.


Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.

Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.

Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.

The aromatization hypothesis asserts that testosterone (T) must be aromatized to estradiol (E2) to activate copulatory behavior in the male rat. In support of this hypothesis, the aromatization inhibitor, ATD, has been found to suppress male sexual behavior in T-treated rats. In our experiment, we first replicated this finding by peripherally injecting ATD (15 mg/day) or propylene glycol into T-treated (two 10-mm Silastic capsules) or control castrated male rats. In a second experiment, we bilaterally implanted either ATD-filled or blank cannulae into the medial preoptic area (MPOA) of either T-treated or control castrated male rats. With this more local distribution of ATD, a lesser decline in sexual behavior was found, suggesting that other brain areas are involved in the neurohormonal activation of copulatory behavior in the male rat. To determine whether in vivo ATD interacts with androgen or estrogen receptors, we conducted cell nuclear androgen and estrogen receptor binding assays of hypothalamus, preoptic area, amygdala, and septum following treatment with the combinations of systemic T alone. ATD plus T, ATD alone, and blank control. In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor. Competitive binding studies indicated that ATD competes in vitro for cytosol androgen receptors, thus substantiating the in vivo antiandrogenic effects of ATD. Cell nuclear estrogen receptor binding was not significantly increased by exposure to T in the physiological range. No agonistic properties of ATD were observed either behaviorally or biochemically. Thus, an alternative explanation for the inhibitory effects of ATD on male sexual behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.
 
milwood

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I see that ALR is actually lurking on the board today! It is my continuing hope that he will comment further on this subject.
 
Grassroots082

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I see that ALR is actually lurking on the board today! It is my continuing hope that he will comment further on this subject.
You and me both. Would also like to see the likes of Bobo and Dr.D discuss this topic as well.
 
DR.D

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It has potential in this area. The study only comments on anti-andro effects on centrally located receptors, so it's peripheral effect may be neutral or a mixed agonist/antagonist much like SERMs are in different tissues with estro receptors. They act as a false substrate that sometimes promotes but usually denies expression. Estrogen inhibition is also libido damaging in some cases, so ATD may provide a double whammy to sex drive. At this time, I don't believe that it hurts strength or mass gains peripherally though.
 

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so do you believe it would be a good idea to run atd while on cycle to prevent some of the shutdown or is it better left for pct?
 
DR.D

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It could be used on cycle to help pevent shutdown for sure
 
N4cer

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Dr. D - Do you think that Exemestane would be better, since it is ATD's "big brother"?
 

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Define better? Sure why not use a stronger AI to put the squeeze on estrogen so we can do a number on our libido and lipids. :rolleyes: Im starting to wonder if you even get the basic concept of negative feedback from estrogen. We already know what ATD does for test at certain dosages. Are you so desperate on your "ATD sucks" crusade that you want some to call a "research chem" better? While you are at it, ask DR.D if SERM or AI's causes rebound. Then tell him he is wrong.
 
DR.D

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Dr. D - Do you think that Exemestane would be better, since it is ATD's "big brother"?
I think Ex is a stronger AI, but it is an inferior test booster, so ATD would be better to use on cycle to prevent shutdown. That's because of androgenic metabolites that Ex is not as good at preventing shutdown or increasing test, whereas ATD generates an anti-androgenic metabolite that acts centrally to boost test levels even higher.
 
NickW

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Would using ATD on cycle cut the benefits of the AAS being used?
 
N4cer

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Easy, Ghosting. I have 2 bottles of ATD on my shelf. I don't think it sucks at all. I'm just trying to get the concept here. Everyone says that using it helps recovery "because it's an ai". But if it were that basic, we'd just use low doses of arimidex. I know ATD works man. I just hadn't heard until now that it's because of its metabolites. Just remember: there's a reason that it's on the supplement market instead of pharmacy market.

I also know that when I got bloods done after a week on Exemestane, my % of free test was 3.22 in a reference range of 1.10-2.80. So therefore I was wondering for personal reasons. I have a few grams of the powder here and would rather use it than order more ATD, since ATD is so expensive to use.

And even Dr. D knows that using an AI at high doses for a long time causes rebound. That's why you don't use letrozole at the full-strength 2.5mg doses. THAT will cause much more rebound than using a SERM at a sensible dose.

So back up off my ass, Ghosting. You got me all wrong on this, buddy. Heck, you've educated me, as now I'm seeing that yes, using SERMs too long at too high a dose can cause rebound as well. I guess I never heard of it because I've never heard of people running them that long or not tapering anyway.
 

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using an AI at high doses for a long time causes rebound. That's why you don't use letrozole at the full-strength 2.5mg doses. THAT will cause much more rebound than using a SERM at a sensible dose.
Hi dose AI vs sensible dose SERM. Hmmmmmm.

I guess I never heard of it because I've never heard of people running them that long or not tapering anyway.
The issue was not tapering the issue was rebound. SERMs are perfectly fine for PCT. (tapered of course)


You got me all wrong on this
My apologies for jumping to conclusions.
 
N4cer

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That's why I try to say that ATD IS good. Just don't use it and nothing else for PCT. Use a combo. It would work better. Wouldn't you agree?
 

Ghosting

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That's why I try to say that ATD IS good. Just don't use it and nothing else for PCT. Use a combo. It would work better. Wouldn't you agree?
Totally agree. Sorry for losing my cool. That is uncharacterstic of me and I feel bad.
 

Ghosting

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I personally feel a SERM followed by ATD is the best combo. A SERM first blows away ATD IMO at the beginning of PCT.
 
wastedwhiteboy2

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I wonder if people are having problems with adt and libido because they are using too much. Author told a guy to not use it for a couple of days and to double up on the zma. I cant remember what dose the guy was using but author was saying the overload of adt was the reason the guy lost his libido. any thoughts?
 
DR.D

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I wonder if people are having problems with adt and libido because they are using too much...
It hurts libido mainly because of an anti-androgenic metabolite. The same metabolite that helps make it so good for test boosting. You can't have it both ways in this case.
 

Ghosting

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It hurts libido mainly because of an anti-androgenic metabolite. The same metabolite that helps make it so good for test boosting. You can't have it both ways in this case.
When you call it an anti-androgenic metobolite (Im asking because IDK), do you mean to suggest the it is an antagonist for androgenic sustances?
 
DR.D

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When you call it an anti-androgenic metobolite (Im asking because IDK), do you mean to suggest the it is an antagonist for androgenic sustances?
Well, a competitive antagonist for androgen receptors in the hypothalamus, yes. I have not seen evidence that it behaves this way peripherally in the muscles or secondary sex tissues (like prostate), so it's perfect as a test booster without hurting gains. Only libido may be compromised, but not sexual functionality or tissue growth. The metabolite is only a technical "anti-androgen" because it's presence is not really oppositional to DHT and other androgens, it's just more neutral, so it blocks androgen expression rather than opposing it. It has low intrinsic activity in other words. It just has a greater binding affinity for these proteins centrally. It's like a SERM. A SERM doesn't oppose estrogen as much as just blocking it from doing its thing at the receptor. I'm guessing that ATD is also nice on lipids and bone density like examestane too. ATD is a really sweet compound because of the combination of these specific benefits. Like I said before, libido may be hurt, but you can't separate this from its benefits. It's the price you might pay. Examestane may support libido a little better due to its androgenic metabolite, but it's necessarily inferior for PCT because of it. On cycle, I doubt ATD hurts libido though.
 
N4cer

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When I ran a week of Exemestane along with M1T (to shut down prior to blood work) my % free test was a 3.22 in a 1.1-2.8 reference range. Figured it was the exemestane.
 

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Well, a competitive antagonist for androgen receptors in the hypothalamus, yes. I have not seen evidence that it behaves this way peripherally in the muscles or secondary sex tissues (like prostate), so it's perfect as a test booster without hurting gains. Only libido may be compromised, but not sexual functionality or tissue growth. The metabolite is only a technical "anti-androgen" because it's presence is not really oppositional to DHT and other androgens, it's just more neutral, so it blocks androgen expression rather than opposing it. It has low intrinsic activity in other words. It just has a greater binding affinity for these proteins centrally. It's like a SERM. A SERM doesn't oppose estrogen as much as just blocking it from doing its thing at the receptor. I'm guessing that ATD is also nice on lipids and bone density like examestane too. ATD is a really sweet compound because of the combination of these specific benefits. Like I said before, libido may be hurt, but you can't separate this from its benefits. It's the price you might pay. Examestane may support libido a little better due to its androgenic metabolite, but it's necessarily inferior for PCT because of it. On cycle, I doubt ATD hurts libido though.
OK, thanks. Were did you pick up all this freakin knowledge at?
 
DR.D

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When I ran a week of Exemestane along with M1T (to shut down prior to blood work) my % free test was a 3.22 in a 1.1-2.8 reference range. Figured it was the exemestane.
Yeah, that's not bad at all!
 
DR.D

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OK, thanks. Were did you pick up all this freakin knowledge at?
Haha, I guess 50% from research and the other 50% from trial and error. I started juicing pretty young and I've done some risky experimenting with many different chemical compounds. That's really why I try to help when I can because I've all ready figured out a lot of this stuff and much of it is just too dangerous for people to repeat. If they will listen, I don't mind sharing the info. That way you can stay safe learning from my mistakes and experiences.
 

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Haha, I guess 50% from research and the other 50% from trial and error. I started juicing pretty young and I've done some risky experimenting with many different chemical compounds. That's really why I try to help when I can because I've all ready figured out a lot of this stuff and much of it is just too dangerous for people to repeat. If they will listen, I don't mind sharing the info. That way you can stay safe learning from my mistakes and experiences.
I guessed you were like a triple Ph.D or something. Many of us just take your word like gospel. Its like, "well Dr.D told me blah, blah blah." When people heard it came from Dr.D thats the final word on the subject. I even have a Dr.D folder where I keep all you explainations, so I can reference them and sound like I know what the hell Im talking about.
 
milwood

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I would be a fan club member as well. Thank you for everything, Doc. ;)
 
DR.D

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I guessed you were like a triple Ph.D or something. Many of us just take your word like gospel. Its like, "well Dr.D told me blah, blah blah." When people heard it came from Dr.D thats the final word on the subject. I even have a Dr.D folder where I keep all you explainations, so I can reference them and sound like I know what the hell Im talking about.
Well thanks for your trust and confidence! I tell the truth as I see it, even when it get's me in trouble. :p I'm no Ph.D though. I have a degree in both physics and chemistry but they are both undergrads. A lot of this is stuff I've just had to teach myself and learn the hard way over the last 15 years or so. I guess I'm kind of a nerd.
 

Ghosting

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Well thanks for your trust and confidence! I tell the truth as I see it, even when it get's me in trouble. :p I'm no Ph.D though. I have a degree in both physics and chemistry but they are both undergrads. A lot of this is stuff I've just had to teach myself and learn the hard way over the last 15 years or so. I guess I'm kind of a nerd.
Well, its amazing to the rest of us. Keep up the good work.
 
Max32

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Well thanks for your trust and confidence! I tell the truth as I see it, even when it get's me in trouble. :p I'm no Ph.D though. I have a degree in both physics and chemistry but they are both undergrads. A lot of this is stuff I've just had to teach myself and learn the hard way over the last 15 years or so. I guess I'm kind of a nerd.
\

D, slightly off the topic, but I wanted to get your thoughts on methylated ATD, ala, ultra HOTter. I know P Arnold had only negative to say on it, but I have had at least what seemed like a great PCT that I have kept you updated with via PM. I just finished my 3rd week of it and have been using the following for PCT:

wk 1: 20 caps activate, 3 caps ALRI Ultra HOTter, 3 caps ALRI Retain, 4 caps Scivation Fenotest, 1 gram Fenugreeek
wk 2: 20 caps activate, 3 caps ALRI Ultra HOTter, 3 caps ALRI Retain, 4 caps Scivation Fenotest, 1.5-2 gram Fenugreeek
wk 3: 20 caps activate, 2 caps ALRI Ultra HOTter, 3 caps ALRI Retain, 4 caps Scivation Fenotest, 2 gram Fenugreeek
wk 4: 20 caps activate, 1 caps ALRI Ultra HOTter, 3 caps ALRI Retain, 4 caps Scivation Fenotest, 3 gram Fenugreeek

on wk 3, I added 1 cap of regular ATD in the morning and continued that in wk 4. I was debaating running 1 cap of ATD in week 5 as well since I have another bottle of activate at my disposal...I have been running all of the fenugreek post workout instead of spaced out throughout the day in fear of possible fat accumulation
 

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Hey Max, I just wanted to know how could Fenugreek lead to fat accumulation when spread throughout the day? O, and congrats on winning ALRI's contest bro!
 
Max32

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Hey Max, I just wanted to know how could Fenugreek lead to fat accumulation when spread throughout the day? O, and congrats on winning ALRI's contest bro!
thanks man, just speculation/questioning as to whether or not its actions are site specific to muscle and/or adipose tissue...
 
DR.D

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\

D, slightly off the topic, but I wanted to get your thoughts on methylated ATD, ala, ultra HOTter...
Hey MAX! Not sure what I think about it yet (I haven't tried it) but don't have anything bad to say about it right now. I am not sure I see the point, ATD is effective enough orally w/out methylation. It can only stress the liver more during PCT. However, the alkyl sub at the C17 makes it a weak progestin which often enhances anti-e effects, so it is an interesting compound. I've been following your PCT in the PMs you send and it does look like it's going very well.

Extending ATD into wk 5 sounds fine to me. Taking the fen all in 1 dose post-w/o is fine too. On non-w/o days, I'd just take it all before bed.
 
Max32

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thanks man...



Hey MAX! Not sure what I think about it yet (I haven't tried it) but don't have anything bad to say about it right now. I am not sure I see the point, ATD is effective enough orally w/out methylation. It can only stress the liver more during PCT. However, the alkyl sub at the C17 makes it a weak progestin which often enhances anti-e effects, so it is an interesting compound. I've been following your PCT in the PMs you send and it does look like it's going very well.

Extending ATD into wk 5 sounds fine to me. Taking the fen all in 1 dose post-w/o is fine too. On non-w/o days, I'd just take it all before bed.
 

shootmeagain

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If we are saying ATD can be a libido downer, then what could one use during PCT, or after, to supply a 'boost' in that department? Or is it just a matter of waiting as your natural functions return to normal?
 

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Personal experience has led me to beleive that clomid may help bring libido back quicker. This does not necessarily mean that natural test is restored quicker, but rather the boys start making sperm due to the exposure to LH and FSH. I seem to be one of the few that respond to clomid very well with little side effects, so I would like to try using it along with ATD.
Dr.D, what are you thoughts on a PCT using just clomid and ATD
Example
Week 1: Clomid 150mg, ATD 25mg
Week 2: Clomid 100mg, ATD 50mg
Week 3: Clomid 75mg, ATD 75mg
Week 4: Clomid 50mg, ATD 75mg
Week 5: ATD 50mg
Week 6: ATD 25mg (optional)
This may be totally off, but I thought I would just throw and example out there.
 

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Methink Clomid is very valuble post cycle to increase the size of the boys. As men it is impotant to us. :)
 
julius kelp

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i'm doing something pretty similar to that currently sky9. mixed 1.5 grams of atd in 30ml olive oil. (doesn't dissolve great, shake well!) do about 50mgs before bed with clo. see a few tracers in the am, but they subside. reminds me of being in those metal bands in the 80's hehe
 

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Just an FYI.

I'm running ATD then Nolva as a 6 week PCT from a LONG cycle. I read prior that I should use the ATD first, taper down, then the SERM.

Well, the ATD killed my libido, but brought the boys back. I'ev honestly never had this big of a libido drop. I'm worried my girlfriend is going to say something.

BUT...yesterday I started my Nolva @ 60 (60/40/20), and today (after my second dose) I already feel libido creeping back.

So I agree with the post above--Nolva or Clomid (SERM) should probably be run FIRST, then the AI, and run the AI at a lower overall dose, too.

Also, wasn't this thread about ATD as HCG? Does anyone have anything good to report in this department? Like ATD/SD for three weeks, or similar?

Does anyone know anything about reduction in Estrogen negatively effecting your immune system? I ask b/c I got a bad cold during the third week of PCT, and I'm quite healthy.

EDIT: Slightly OT, but to anyone interested, this was my first long cycle (12+ weeks), and the body recomp, gains, and retention is unlike anything I've ever done. I'm a firm believer in long cycles now...BUT...I will always use UCG from here on out (which is why I hit this thread), and I have experienced worse lethargy, worse emotional stability, and longer test recovery than ever before...so everything has a price. But body wise, everything is sticking around and my strength continues to increase.
 
DR.D

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...Dr.D, what are you thoughts on a PCT using just clomid and ATD
Example
Week 1: Clomid 150mg, ATD 25mg
Week 2: Clomid 100mg, ATD 50mg
Week 3: Clomid 75mg, ATD 75mg
Week 4: Clomid 50mg, ATD 75mg
Week 5: ATD 50mg
Week 6: ATD 25mg (optional)
This may be totally off, but I thought I would just throw and example out there.
You aren't way off at all. I go a few weeks longer usually and the timing and doses are a little different, but the pattern you show here is essentially like what I use too.
 
DR.D

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...Does anyone know anything about reduction in Estrogen negatively effecting your immune system? I ask b/c I got a bad cold during the third week of PCT, and I'm quite healthy.
It depends. In general, I think it does. 5AD is estrogenic and does just the opposite, but it's A-ring saturated too like most other steroidal immune boosters. M1T is non-estrogenic, but it makes me more sick than any other. The thymus is involved too I suspect in many cases.
 

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Yeah, I actually started popping 100mg. of 5AD per day a few days back, based on your reccommendations, and it seems to have really worked; and I am aware of the estrogenic potentiation of 5AD.
 

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Dr.D, I saw on another site you said ramping down SERMs were part of an extincted theory that they cause rebound. I even got after N4cer for this, but I do NOT mind admitting I am wrong, especially if I am passing around bro-science. Here is a cut & paste of my thinking, correct me if I am wrong.
SERMs should always be ramped down to avoid rebound if the half life of test is longer than the SERM. A SERM is a weak estrogen that takes up ER's. When the SERM is gone you are left with the estrogen. Granted estrogen has a short half life, but there is always test to make more unless the SERM being used has a longer half life than test, and I dont know tests half life.
 
DR.D

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I always ramp them down because even though the metabolites are long lived, they are weaker than the parent compounds in many cases and some are even estrogenic. I do fat doses of SERM the for 2 or 3 wks , then trail off at low doses for 4-6 more wks usually. It may not really be necessary, but I never have rebound issues.
 

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