ATD used as HCG

[N4cer]

DISCLAIMER: This is not specifically directed at anyone, as much as just a genaral observation about those who over-complicate bb'ing.

Honestly, I think we as a whole are over-complicating it. We put WAY too much thought into these things when their effects are minimal unless done in a really stupid manner. I mean, people run SERMs for PCT for 3-6 weeks and don't have appreciable rebound. Yes you might have bloodwork saying it's elevated, but if you aren't having any negative effects, I don't know of any other problems with it. Heck, male porn stars run clomid for extended periods of time to increase ejaculatory volume (and YES, decreased ejaculatory volume is a side effect of AAS use, although someone tried to argue with me that it wasn't).

Of course running a SERM for 4 months at 100mg/day will cause rebound. It is a manipulation of the endocrine system which is one big negative-feedback loop. But doing these things sensibly doesn't have enough effect to matter. That's not just my opinion - it's my experience and the experiences of hundreds of bros on the boards for the last few years.

IMHO if we'd stop wasting energy on contemplating marginal effects of most of the things we discuss on here, and spend that energy on training intensity and diet and rest, we'd make MUCH better gains.

 

[Ghosting]

I always ramp them down because even though the metabolites are long lived, they are weaker than the parent compounds in many cases and some are even estrogenic. I do fat doses of SERM the for 2 or 3 wks , then trail off at low doses for 4-6 more wks usually. It may not really be necessary, but I never have rebound issues.

Do you know the half life of test?

 

[DR.D]

Do you know the half life of test?

Regular free form test has a 10-100minute t1/2. Why do you ask?

 

[DR.D]

DISCLAIMER: This is not specifically directed at anyone, as much as just a genaral observation about those who over-complicate bb'ing.

Honestly, I think we as a whole are over-complicating it. We put WAY too much thought into these things when their effects are minimal unless done in a really stupid manner. I mean, people run SERMs for PCT for 3-6 weeks and don't have appreciable rebound. Yes you might have bloodwork saying it's elevated, but if you aren't having any negative effects, I don't know of any other problems with it. Heck, male porn stars run clomid for extended periods of time to increase ejaculatory volume (and YES, decreased ejaculatory volume is a side effect of AAS use, although someone tried to argue with me that it wasn't).

Of course running a SERM for 4 months at 100mg/day will cause rebound. It is a manipulation of the endocrine system which is one big negative-feedback loop. But doing these things sensibly doesn't have enough effect to matter. That's not just my opinion - it's my experience and the experiences of hundreds of bros on the boards for the last few years.

IMHO if we'd stop wasting energy on contemplating marginal effects of most of the things we discuss on here, and spend that energy on training intensity and diet and rest, we'd make MUCH better gains.

I agree with you for the most part. That's why I said, it may not really be necessary to down ramp, I just keep doing it how it works for me and don't worry about it too much. I never have rebounded with a SERM, but I never stay on longer than 2 months at a time. Ghosting seems like a smart and good hearted bro. Same as you too. So I wish you guys would try to patch this up. I think there was just some miscommunication.

 

[Ghosting]

(and YES, decreased ejaculatory volume is a side effect of AAS use, although someone tried to argue with me that it wasn't).

LOL. If you are talking about me that wasnt what I was trying to imply. I was trying to say Clomid causing an increase in ejaculatory volume doesnt mean test is related to your load size. Sperm volume doesnt mean full recuvovery. Now that we are hijacking the idiot thread starters thread, can you tell us more detail about your beta test of venom. Did you like it because you didnt feel all amped and saw fat loss, or because you felt amped and saw fat loss?

 

[Ghosting]

So I wish you guys would try to patch this up. I think there was just some miscommunication.

I started it. Then I lost my cool over here. Like I said, I dont mind being wrong at all, I just think we are butting heads over the bro-science of this. Im sure when he logs off he is like me. Online what?

 

[N4cer]

Hey bros, first off, me and Ghosting are cool. He's a great guy who remains hungry for knowledge and always wants to do the best for himself and others. Nothing but love for the bro. It was a miscommunication, and I'm done with it, as is he.

The venom was badass. It really wired me out bad. To the point that I had to stop it after 3 days because I just felt drained. All muscles sore, restless sleep. It's like it had a 12-hr HALF-life. So it was kicking my butt the longer I ran it. Like an accumulatory effect. I dropped a few lbs, most likely from lower than normal calories (approx. 2800-3000).

It felt like ephedra that had been taking test. LOL! Just totally intense ephedra for hours on end. I love the fact that it killed my appetite. My biggest problem with my nutrition is that I've always been impulsive with everything in my life, and food cravings is no different. That's why I like eph with my clen... to kill appetite. But with this VENOM, I can honestly say I think it's better than the clen/eph mix.

As soon as this comes out, you guys HAVE to try this badass stuff. I mean, honestly, I think it will sell out it's so good. And as you know, I hate supplement companies' marketing. But with this, it wasn't marketed to me. I'm friends with an insider there, and he sent me what was left of his beta test bottle. WOW! I don't even know what the ads say, but if you recall Tyrone the crackhead from Dave Chappelle's show, the best ad would be:

"VENOM... it's like crack in a capsule, baby!"
(Actually, it reminds me more of other longer-lasting amphetamine compounds. Provigil almost.)

 

[Ghosting]

Regular free form test has a 10-100minute t1/2. Why do you ask?

I guess it doesnt matter nevermind. That is still good info to have

 

[Ghosting]

How many pills would you recommend to avoid the crack affects? I realize weight and sensitivy will come into play, but a rough idea.

 

[N4cer]

Well, I was given the beta run. I was told that since that run, it was determined that the same dosage of active ingredients will be split into 2 capsules for the production run. Good move, IMHO.
So I would of course start at 1 capsule (equal to 1/2 what I was taking) to assess tolerance.

 

[ghostwriter]

Ok, I love the post by N4cer, do not overthink things. I have preached this in bb for years. Now, at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, this PCT thing is got my head spinning. Seems everywhere you read there is a different protocol. Thought I had it down, but would like to hear some input...

My cycle is running like this....
Week 1-12 250 mg. test E twice weekly
Week 2-10 250 mg. test E twice weekly.400 mg. Deca
Week 11 and 12 250 mg. test E twice weekly, 40 mg. Anavar daily

I have nolva, clomid, Retain, Fenugreek on hand for PCT, as well as HCG. Can one of you "pros" give a PCT scenario with what I have, or if I need something else, I will get it. Thanks to any who respond....PCT is serious stuff, and want to get it down correctly.

 

[Sky9]

Back on Topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky9
...Dr.D, what are you thoughts on a PCT using just clomid and ATD
Example
Week 1: Clomid 150mg, ATD 25mg
Week 2: Clomid 100mg, ATD 50mg
Week 3: Clomid 75mg, ATD 75mg
Week 4: Clomid 50mg, ATD 75mg
Week 5: ATD 50mg
Week 6: ATD 25mg (optional)
This may be totally off, but I thought I would just throw and example out there.

You aren't way off at all. I go a few weeks longer usually and the timing and doses are a little different, but the pattern you show here is essentially like what I use too.

I am planning on hitting up M1T this winter sometime once my groin tear has healed completely. I really hate getting shut down so Im thinking of running ATD along side it for 3-4 weeks. I know that HCG would not be used for a short cycle like this normally, but I hate getting shut down. So this is what Im thinking:
Week 1: M1T 10mg, ATD 50mg
Week 2: M1T 20mg, ATD 75mg
Week 3: M1T 20mg, ATD 75mg
Week 4: PCT as described above
I have no idea how this will work out, but I think I might give it a shot. I will of course have nolva on hand, shouldnt need it becuase of the ATD, but it never hurts to be prepared. I know M1T does not aromatize, but estrogen control is something I fight with on every cycle and after hearing how many people have experienced gyno after their M1T cycle, Im not taking chances anymore. I hope ATD will help with psyeudo gyno (puffy nips, but no lumps) while on cycle. Near the end of my 3 week SD cycle they started to get a little puffy, even though shutdown was minimal, what does this mean. I think estrogen control while on cycle is key for me, any opinions would be helpful. Anyone had any experiences with cycles like listed above???

 

[Sky9]

Ok, I love the post by N4cer, do not overthink things. I have preached this in bb for years. Now, at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, this PCT thing is got my head spinning. Seems everywhere you read there is a different protocol. Thought I had it down, but would like to hear some input...

My cycle is running like this....
Week 1-12 250 mg. test E twice weekly
Week 2-10 250 mg. test E twice weekly.400 mg. Deca
Week 11 and 12 250 mg. test E twice weekly, 40 mg. Anavar daily

I have nolva, clomid, Retain, Fenugreek on hand for PCT, as well as HCG. Can one of you "pros" give a PCT scenario with what I have, or if I need something else, I will get it. Thanks to any who respond....PCT is serious stuff, and want to get it down correctly.

Well Im not a pro by any means, in fact Ive never even pinned, so this is just bro-ology or whatever its called. But I think your could use HCG during cycle to retain your testes sensitivity to LH/FSH and avoid atrophy. This does not mean avoiding shutdown, but rather helps they recover once exogenous androgens start to leave the body and PCT is proceeding. After you stop your cycle and start PCT your testes will be quicker to respond to clomid and using nolva along side will help with estrogen control until your boys start producing natty test again. Fenugreek may help with this, but for me it didnt do much, but thats just me. Hope this helps, but you definitely need some specific advise from someone with more experience than me.

 

[ghostwriter]

Thanks Sky9 for the input, it is welcome. I do have HCG, and am nearing the end of my cycle, and getting concerned with all the different scenarios abounding. One thing, this is going to sound silly, but I have never used HCG, but did order it and do have it. It came as 2 units. How is this measured and used, and how is it determined if it is needed? I see no signs in me of shutdown of any kind. The boys are the same size, and seem very full of vigor. Thanks again....

 

[DR.D]

...The boys are the same size, and seem very full of vigor. Thanks again....

Then you don't need hCG this time. Stick it in the frig and save it for later. It's great when you need it, but avoid using it when it's not required.

 

[DR.D]

...Near the end of my 3 week SD cycle they started to get a little puffy, even though shutdown was minimal, what does this mean. I think estrogen control while on cycle is key for me, any opinions would be helpful. Anyone had any experiences with cycles like listed above???

Even though SD is an anti-e, it's also a very weak androgen, so if mild suppression occurs after 3-4 wks, you now have very little DHT to help out plus estrogens are still forming from adrenal sources so a shift may occur. It doesn't happen to everyone but some are vulnerable if a stronger andro is not stacked with SD. SD is an almost pure anabolic with minimal andro contribution. It could also indicate some fat gains from the cycle. Caffeine is also a commonly overlooked culprit for nip puffiness IMO. Mine are a little puffy too after all this time, but not bad enough to bother me. Surgery is probably the only true fix if you really can't stand it. Your cycle looks fine, but those are big doses of M1T! I could never take more than 12.5mg without getting sicker than a dog.

 

[Sky9]

Even though SD is an anti-e, it's also a very weak androgen, so if mild suppression occurs after 3-4 wks, you now have very little DHT to help out plus estrogens are still forming from adrenal sources so a shift may occur. It doesn't happen to everyone but some are vulnerable if a stronger andro is not stacked with SD. SD is an almost pure anabolic with minimal andro contribution. It could also indicate some fat gains from the cycle. Caffeine is also a commonly overlooked culprit for nip puffiness IMO. Mine are a little puffy too after all this time, but not bad enough to bother me. Surgery is probably the only true fix if you really can't stand it. Your cycle looks fine, but those are big doses of M1T! I could never take more than 12.5mg without getting sicker than a dog.

Thanks D for the advice, I think I messed up when describing the doses of M1T, I would probably just run 5-10mg ED, not 10-20mg. I did not gain any fat while on SD, actually may have lost some, but I did drink alot of caffeine to combat the lethargy I encountered with SD. How does caffeine contribute to puffyness?? I dont think surgery is an option right now. I dont have the money and its really not bad at all, just annoying if I get over about 13% bf. So would something like 5AA be a good combo to stack with SD to balance androgenic/anabolic compounds? Does 5AA aromatize enough to contribute to gyno.

ATD may help with lowering shutdown, but I mostly would want to use it to control estrogen while on cycle. Would the use of ATD be more applicable when using SD (anabolic) or M1T (androgenic and anabolic)?

Thanks for all your help

 

[N4cer]

Um, all hormones that we use are both anabolic and androgenic. Just in differing degrees.

 

[DR.D]

...How does caffeine contribute to puffyness?? ... Does 5AA aromatize enough to contribute to gyno ... Would the use of ATD be more applicable when using SD (anabolic) or M1T (androgenic and anabolic)?

Thanks for all your help

Caffeine elevates estrogen levels.

5AA would be an excellent choice, it will not aromatize.

M1T for sure, but neither compound elevates estrogen, so it would just be to block andro receptors centrally.

 

[Ghosting]

Methinks because people report bloating and gyno, that there is a rumor going around that it aromatises, although I thought becuase of the structure of this, it was impossible. I chalked it up to progesterone induced. Thoughts?

 

[DR.D]

A rumor of estrogen bloat from what? SD or M1T?

 

[Sky9]

Caffeine elevates estrogen levels.

5AA would be an excellent choice, it will not aromatize.

M1T for sure, but neither compound elevates estrogen, so it would just be to block andro receptors centrally.

Thanks Dr.D
This unfortunitely brings up the subject of stacking methyls, which I do not want to get into on this thread, since Im not going to be running anything like this soon.

 

[Sky9]

Um, all hormones that we use are both anabolic and androgenic. Just in differing degrees.

Um, duh

 

[Ghosting]

A rumor of estrogen bloat from what? SD or M1T?

M1T. Im not saying M1T doesnt influence estrogen, but I always thought it couldnt physically turn into estrogen, Correct this statement.

 

[N4cer]

That's correct, theoretically.
The way I understand it, is basically this: M1T is VERY similar to dbol. Dbol is methyl boldenone, while M1T is the methylated version of 5-alpha reduced boldenone. So apparently in the manufacturing process, the Chinese frequently don't get it 100% right. Therefore, you get some dbol in your M1T. Dbol aromatizes to methylesterone. Hence the M1T bloat and tits.

Glad I still have stashed back some of the old, "impure" Meso Labs M1T.

 

[Ghosting]

That's correct, theoretically.
The way I understand it, is basically this: M1T is VERY similar to dbol. Dbol is methyl boldenone, while M1T is the methylated version of 5-alpha reduced boldenone. So apparently in the manufacturing process, the Chinese frequently don't get it 100% right. Therefore, you get some dbol in your M1T. Dbol aromatizes to methylesterone. Hence the M1T bloat and tits.

Glad I still have stashed back some of the old, "impure" Meso Labs M1T.

So you are saying M1T doesnt aromatize its the DBol in it?

 

[N4cer]

That's just the theory I've heard, and have some agreement with.
I guess the reason is that is true in the chemical sense, and in chem speak, M1T should NOT aromatize. But then, we also fell for the theory that 2mg of Methyl Dienolone will be better than M1T. Man, some supp companies ass raped us on that one!

 

[Ghosting]

That's just the theory I've heard, and have some agreement with.
I guess the reason is that is true in the chemical sense, and in chem speak, M1T should NOT aromatize. But then, we also fell for the theory that 2mg of Methyl Dienolone will be better than M1T. Man, some supp companies ass raped us on that one!

Agreed. M-Dien was not even close to M1T.

 

[Ghosting]

I say we kill the retard that started this thread!! Seriously I have 2 questions

1) I keep saying milk thistle is antiandrogenic, because its in my Dr.D folder and Im a little parrot who runs around saying it but I have no links to prove it. So if someone could give me a link or links to back it up, I'd appreciate it.

2) Ive heard during exogenous consumption of hormones that the hypothalamus shuts down, if that the case test would be totally shut off instead of supressed wouldnt it?

 

[N4cer]

In most cases, suppression = shut off. Total suppression is suppression.

 

[Ghosting]

In most cases, suppression = shut off. Total suppression is suppression.

If T has a half life of 10-100 mins (from my Dr. D files ), I was wondering wy people still have T? Or Im I not getting what your are saying?The only total supression I half heard of is M1T, but those are just my bro-rumors. Did you get my order of Finasteride for my rat?

 

[Ghosting]

Ok, if I inderstand you right, you are saying, total suppresion there is still some test being produced, so some AAS the hypothalamus would still be functioning?

 

[N4cer]

I'm saying a couple of things:
One is that there's not any noticeable difference between a test level of "0" and a test level of "10" if in the presence of exogenous hormones. This is another one of those lines of thought that is WAY over-complicating things.
I don't know that you get totally shut down, or not, from anything, but I know that M1T holds no special powers that make it the only thing with power enough to cause total shutdown.
This line of thought is mostly just splitting hairs.

And yes, the order is going out in the morning... with extras for fun.

 

[Ghosting]

I'm saying a couple of things:
One is that there's not any noticeable difference between a test level of "0" and a test level of "10" if in the presence of exogenous hormones. This is another one of those lines of thought that is WAY over-complicating things.
I don't know that you get totally shut down, or not, from anything, but I know that M1T holds no special powers that make it the only thing with power enough to cause total shutdown.
This line of thought is mostly just splitting hairs.

And yes, the order is going out in the morning... with extras for fun.

Ok, SS's blood work still showed some test that everyone kept calling shuts you off where I was just thinking it caused major suppresion, I just dont know the terms yet. Doh. So the hypothalamus isnt shut down then? Ever?

 

[N4cer]

The hypothalamus is always working. It just receives and interprets the negative feedback from the body. If your hypothalamus didn't work, you'd have no bodily regulation.

 

[Ghosting]

The hypothalamus is always working. It just receives and interprets the negative feedback from the body. If your hypothalamus didn't work, you'd have no bodily regulation.

Oh F me! Someone told me that the hypothalamus was shut down (almost like I was some sort of idiot for not knowing this). UGH! I hate when Im told something wrong because thats what I think and spread. I was the victim of bro-telligence. Thanks for correcting that N4cer.

 

[bioman]

Well, they probably got that from the "HPTA" shutdown, but really HPTA describes a complex cycle of hormonal regulation that gets shot to **** because AAS use.

M1T simply causes shutdown fast than nearly any AAS we know of. It can drive test into the single digits in 24 hours.

I've had some luck running HCG via Swale's protocol during cycles of M1T. I definitely felt better than without it, that's for certain. Anything over 5-10 mg of M1T gets me sick.

Currently on a transdermal 4AD/19 Nor/ 1 Test/ 3 alpha and SD cycle. Going well at week 5 (been on SD for 8 days now). Some fat gain but very little bloat for as much 4AD/19 Nor. The 1 gram of 3 alpha I added seemed to help and after the addition of SD, I dropped a few pounds of water. Up a total of 15 pounds so far but gains have slowed. If no gains come next week I may stop and initiate PCT.

PCT will be Nolva 30-20-20-10 then phase Ultra Hotter in at 1-2 tabs per day until I feel manly. Fenugreek will be stacked with Cissus and cAMPH just for shits and giggles.

Afte this, I may trial PowerFull IF blood work of testers comes back unsuppressed.

 

[DR.D]

1) I keep saying milk thistle is antiandrogenic, because its in my Dr.D folder and Im a little parrot who runs around saying it but I have no links to prove it. So if someone could give me a link or links to back it up, I'd appreciate it.

Here's 3 good links that summarize it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11532861&query_hl=2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15899838&query_hl=2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11059749&query_hl=2

 

[jminis]

Well, I was given the beta run. I was told that since that run, it was determined that the same dosage of active ingredients will be split into 2 capsules for the production run. Good move, IMHO.
So I would of course start at 1 capsule (equal to 1/2 what I was taking) to assess tolerance.

So your not a fatass anymore? :whip:

 

[N4cer]

No, sissy boy. I'm still as lard-assed as ever. Just 3-4lbs less lard on dat ass, beeyotch!

 

[lifted]

Damn bioman, that sounds like a kick-ass cycle...good luck with the rest of it.

 

[Ghosting]

Well, they probably got that from the "HPTA" shutdown, but really HPTA describes a complex cycle of hormonal regulation that gets shot to **** because AAS use.

M1T simply causes shutdown fast than nearly any AAS we know of. It can drive test into the single digits in 24 hours.

I've had some luck running HCG via Swale's protocol during cycles of M1T. I definitely felt better than without it, that's for certain. Anything over 5-10 mg of M1T gets me sick.

Currently on a transdermal 4AD/19 Nor/ 1 Test/ 3 alpha and SD cycle. Going well at week 5 (been on SD for 8 days now). Some fat gain but very little bloat for as much 4AD/19 Nor. The 1 gram of 3 alpha I added seemed to help and after the addition of SD, I dropped a few pounds of water. Up a total of 15 pounds so far but gains have slowed. If no gains come next week I may stop and initiate PCT.

PCT will be Nolva 30-20-20-10 then phase Ultra Hotter in at 1-2 tabs per day until I feel manly. Fenugreek will be stacked with Cissus and cAMPH just for shits and giggles.

Afte this, I may trial PowerFull IF blood work of testers comes back unsuppressed.

Ok, if I get what you and others are saying, the hypothalamus potion of the HPTA isnt totally shut off and still working, just at a far much lower level
than normal, depending on the compound?
So theoretically you could use an AI or SERM (since estrogen is the negative feedback) to help fight off T suppresion?

 

[Ghosting]

Here's 3 good links that summarize it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11532861&query_hl=2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15899838&query_hl=2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11059749&query_hl=2

Bless you kind sir. *fights back tears*

 

[Jared]

So, in terms of ATD's effect on libido due to its ability to block T from binding to androgen receptors, how long after ceasing its use could one expect to see an elevation in libido to normal levels? Just curious guys.

 

[Ghosting]

? I m a victim if everything I read is true. I always thought 1mg or 1ml = 1cc. So whats this?

, who knows someone....if you can find it, IGF-1 will cost you between $600-800 per bottle for 50 cc.

Effective Dose: 1/10 - 1/2 cc every other day.

Why would you buy a 50cc bottle? I thought only 2cc's was needed/month at 40 mcg's/day?.?. Plus I just bought a 1 cc bottle at $160. 50cc's would be $8000. That one heck of a bulk discount.

 

[jminis]

No, sissy boy. I'm still as lard-assed as ever. Just 3-4lbs less lard on dat ass, beeyotch!

That's what I thought ball licker. :thumbsup:

 

[julius kelp]

i went off of it about 3 or 4 days ago (after a month on) & i feel drives kind of rising back up already. just me.

 

[Ghosting]

Argh! Even though you wrote "waive signature", I still had to go to the PO today to pick it up. Also, thanks for the "you know what" N4cer, I appreciate the cool freebie.

 

[bioman]

That would seem to make sense Julius..at least hypothetically. The ATD would cause your test level to raise, however since it is blocking the receptors in your brain/hypothalamus you don't feel it until the ATD starts to clear your system. There'd also have to be all the necessary test analogues in place to revive libido.

Upon further consideration I may structure PCT by running UHer first to retain gains and get test levels back, concurrently with fenugreek and possibly horny goat weed, then if there are any further issues I can run Nolva if necesary. I'd like to avoid Nolva altogether as it wrecks my skin..but I have it on hand just in case.

 

[julius kelp]

it has felt that way bioman. seems like urges continue to increase to a high normaL?
(what is normal?...haha)