DeviousNet
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I am finishing a 5 month cycle of Test250/400, Tren Acetate, and Deca. I know I need Clomid and Nolvadex...but what else do I need to add with this?
The bulk of PCT should include each of the following products alongside your basic staples:I am finishing a 5 month cycle of Test250/400, Tren Acetate, and Deca. I know I need Clomid and Nolvadex...but what else do I need to add with this?
I would say that that would be adequate for PCT, yes (others may wish to chime in, though).Rosie, I'm finishing up gathering for my pct, is the testosterone recovery stack, some Arimidex and toremifene good enough for pct, or do I need more? ( it was/is a test e cycle at 12 weeks, 400 a week)
No i haven't, Mine are still here but dont really bother me anymore. Most of the time if it really gets bad you just have to have out patient surgery and not lift chest for 2 weeks. Your insurance might cover most of the cost but it dependsi got gyno of 3weeks on dbol, its a lump about the size of a penny under my right nipple, i went to the doctors he sent me to the hospital to see a speicalist at the hospital he had a feel of it and said it should just go with in time, im no doctor but i cant see the lump jst going away. he put a huge needle in me which was the most painful thing ive done in my life and said he will have results for me in 2 weeks. Has any1 ever had theres just go away????? ( or smaller ) thanks,
So I was wondering I have been looking for nolvadex and clomid and haveb came across nothing really other then it comes in prescription?? Is this the only way I can get either one? And also I'm wondering if you would recommend me taking a pct and anything else other then clomid or nolvadex for a winny cycle only? ( I have heard already that no one recommends winny cycle only)I would say that that would be adequate for PCT, yes (others may wish to chime in, though).
~Rosie~
Depends whether you're male or female re recommendation on doing a Winni-only cycle - up to you, really.So I was wondering I have been looking for nolvadex and clomid and haveb came across nothing really other then it comes in prescription?? Is this the only way I can get either one? And also I'm wondering if you would recommend me taking a pct and anything else other then clomid or nolvadex for a winny cycle only? ( I have heard already that no one recommends winny cycle only)
Depends whether you're male or female re recommendation on doing a Winni-only cycle - up to you, really.
As far as using a SERM, if your cycle was less than six weeks, then you don't really need to use one, so if you can't get one and your cycle was less than that, you'll be ok.
~Rosie~
Yes, solid PCTRosie, I'm finishing up gathering for my pct, is the testosterone recovery stack, some Arimidex and toremifene good enough for pct, or do I need more? ( it was/is a test e cycle at 12 weeks, 400 a week)
Even the arimidex? :banned:Yes, solid PCT
Dosage for what? Your cycle or the PCT? Either way, I am going to let the guys here direct you re this.Alright col thanks for the response. I'm a male so what dosage would u recommend I have heard some numbers already but just trying to find what would be the best not to little or to much? Thanks
Must have missed that, lol.Even the arimidex? :banned:
I wouldn't suggest you use an AI during PCT, if you do, start it at week 3 and taper off for 3-4 weeks.
Rosie,ive heard people say that just use some ERASE as a PCT,do you think thats alright?I would say that that would be adequate for PCT, yes (others may wish to chime in, though).
~Rosie~
Who said that? I think erase can work well around week 3 or 4 of PCT, and its a great supplement all around, but it won't work as a solo PCT.Rosie,ive heard people say that just use some ERASE as a PCT,do you think thats alright?
Why? An AI, such as Erase, reduces estrogen and increases testosterone. Because it inhibits the aromatase enzyme, your testosterone has nothing left to convert to besides dht, so a net increase in testosterone is seen as long as it is administered. Isn't that what PCT is trying to accomplish?Even the arimidex? :banned:
I wouldn't suggest you use an AI during PCT,.
An increase in testosterone and a recovery during PCT is not the same thing. I can inject testosterone during PCT and have high test levels but it doesn't mean I'm recovered. That's not even the main reason people don't recommend it.Why? An AI, such as Erase, reduces estrogen and increases testosterone. Because it inhibits the aromatase enzyme, your testosterone has nothing left to convert to besides dht, so a net increase in testosterone is seen as long as it is administered. Isn't that what PCT is trying to accomplish?
If you don't think SERMs have negative side effects upon hormone profiles, you've never used one. SERMs act much like an AI, except they don't block aromatase. They block the ERalpha and ERbeta receptors. They can have some very unpredictable estrogenic activity that interferes with testosterone's effects and manipulates cholesterol values, lipids, lipoproteins, and blood concentrations of each. Each of which are negatively affected by the SERM.An increase in testosterone and a recovery during PCT is not the same thing. I can inject testosterone during PCT and have high test levels but it doesn't mean I'm recovered. That's not even the main reason people don't recommend it.
Having less estrogen also causes libido loss. SERMs block estrogen where it needs to be blocked so as to avoid most of the bad side effects of lowering estrogen.
PCT is a time when hormones need to be brought back to baseline.
Link?AI's can do damage to bone denisty/bone mineral density.
There is no "link". Just read up on what estrogen does for bones.If you don't think SERMs have negative side effects upon hormone profiles, you've never used one. SERMs act much like an AI, except they don't block aromatase. They block the ERalpha and ERbeta receptors. They can have some very unpredictable estrogenic activity that interferes with testosterone's effects and manipulates cholesterol values, lipids, lipoproteins, and blood concentrations of each. Each of which are negatively affected by the SERM.
Link?
If the AI is moderately dosed, I can assure you, it's not going to cause bones to deteriorate to any degree.There is no "link". Just read up on what estrogen does for bones.
SERMs selectively activate/occupy certain receptors in certain parts of the body. They don't occupy bone estrogen receptors, they do occupy estrogen receptors in the breast tissue. This is why breast cancer patients don't have brittle bones when mega dosing SERMs.
For the same reason, you would suggest a SERM. You can never have a "perfect recovery combination." Exogeneous substances blocking and inhibiting natural hormones (such as SERM, AI, Dopamine inhibitors, etc. etc) and manipulating them to bring about desired effects will always have a negative effect to some degree. On one hand you need something powerfull enough to jumpstart your HPTA ,but on the other, you can't use a natural substance (something like DAA) by itself after a superdrol cycle because you won't recover fully.Why would you suggest someone stack an AI with a SERM if the SERM is already so horribly devastating their body? :banned:
If people want to use an AI, that's fine. I won't usually recommend it. And if it's formestane, gtfo. :biggthumpup:If the AI is moderately dosed, I can assure you, it's not going to cause bones to deteriorate to any degree.
For the same reason, you would suggest a SERM. You can never have a "perfect recovery combination." Exogeneous substances blocking and inhibiting natural hormones (such as SERM, AI, Dopamine inhibitors, etc. etc) and manipulating them to bring about desired effects will always have a negative effect to some degree. On one hand you need something powerfull enough to jumpstart your HPTA ,but on the other, you can't use a natural substance (something like DAA) by itself after a superdrol cycle because you won't recover fully.
That's why you must use an AI and a SERM at a moderate dose, and once you feel recovered, let time take care of homeostasis; Because the body will heal itself. :smokin:
This is not true - SERMs have an extremely beneficial effect on blood cholesterol levels because of their agonist action in the liver. Their agonist/antagonist action is various cell types is well known and definitely not unpredictable. Their only real negative side effect for men would be slightly increased risk of blood clots *if used longterm* (agonist in bone marrow), blurred vision (agonist in ocular cells) and aromatase upregulation. Using an AI along with a SERM should tackle the aromatase upregulation if tappered off correctly but for most people would probably just complicate things.If you don't think SERMs have negative side effects upon hormone profiles, you've never used one. SERMs act much like an AI, except they don't block aromatase. They block the ERalpha and ERbeta receptors. They can have some very unpredictable estrogenic activity that interferes with testosterone's effects and manipulates cholesterol values, lipids, lipoproteins, and blood concentrations of each. Each of which are negatively affected by the SERM.
Link?
You know, honestly, it depends on the mechanism that each serm or AI goes through. Letrozole has been studied to be on the safest side of the AI spectrum, while arimidex is on the harsher end. Just as Tamoxifene is on the safer side of the spectrum, whereas others such as raloxifene are on the more damaging side.This is not true - SERMs have an extremely beneficial effect on blood cholesterol levels because of their agonist action in the liver. Their agonist/antagonist action is various cell types is well known and definitely not unpredictable. Their only real negative side effect for men would be slightly increased risk of blood clots *if used longterm* (agonist in bone marrow), blurred vision (agonist in ocular cells) and aromatase upregulation. Using an AI along with a SERM should tackle the aromatase upregulation if tappered off correctly but for most people would probably just complicate things.
AI only PCT is dangerous because it will mess up your already messed up cholesterol levels even more. Also if tapered off improperly even in conjunction with a SERM, it can lead to long lasting aromatase upregulation (estrogen rebound) which is something I'm facing now.
Effects of tamoxifen on lipid profile and coagulation parameters in male patients with pubertal gynecomastia.
Novoa FJ, Boronat M, Carrillo A, Tapia M, Diaz-Cremades J, Chirino R.
Department of Endocrinology, Hospital Universitario Insular, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Spain. [email protected]
BACKGROUND/AIM: The estrogenic actions of tamoxifen on lipid profiles and hemostasis have been extensively demonstrated in women. Due to limited experience with this drug in males, it is uncertain whether these effects are also present in men. The aim of our study was to assess the response of blood lipids, lipoproteins, and coagulation parameters in a group of men taking tamoxifen. METHODS: We studied 15 healthy boys with pubertal gynecomastia who were given 10 mg tamoxifen per day. Total testosterone, sex-hormone-binding globulin, estradiol, serum lipids, apolipoprotein B, apolipoprotein A-I, lipoprotein(a), fibrinogen, antithrombin III, von Willebrand factor, and markers of activated coagulation and fibrinolysis were determined at baseline and 1 and 3 months after beginning of the tamoxifen treatment. RESULTS: Total cholesterol and lipoprotein(a) showed moderate but significant decreases from baseline. Low-density lipoprotein and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations as well as triglyceride and apolipoprotein B levels became lower, but these changes were not statistically significant. Among clotting parameters, antithrombin III was reduced, and von Willebrand factor increased significantly. Markers of activated coagulation and fibrinolysis remained unchanged throughout the period of therapy. CONCLUSIONS: The effects of tamoxifen on blood lipids and hemostasis we found in this group of healthy young men were qualitatively similar, but lesser than those previously described in women.
And SERMS are selective, meaning they are agonists and antagonists depending on the ER receptor location it's acting upon.You know, honestly, it depends on the mechanism that each serm or AI goes through. Letrozole has been studied to be on the safest side of the AI spectrum, while arimidex is on the harsher end. Just as Tamoxifene is on the safer side of the spectrum, whereas others such as raloxifene are on the more damaging side.
But even tamoxifene has it's negative effects, even if not significantly dangerous..
I think your scale is backwards... Letro has some of the most sides (lipids, gh/igf-1 level drops) while aromasin has the fewest.You know, honestly, it depends on the mechanism that each serm or AI goes through. Letrozole has been studied to be on the safest side of the AI spectrum, while arimidex is on the harsher end. Just as Tamoxifene is on the safer side of the spectrum, whereas others such as raloxifene are on the more damaging side.
But even tamoxifene has it's negative effects, even if not significantly dangerous..
Not according to thisI think your scale is backwards... Letro has some of the most sides (lipids, gh/igf-1 level drops) while aromasin has the fewest.
On the same note, tamox and clomid cause many more side effects than torem (and ralox I think).
Really guys, I know some of you may think i'm talking out my cornhole, but I'm not, I've researched this stuff pretty extensively, especially SARMsThe boys in the T-treated group (12 boys) received T enanthate (1 mg/kg, im, every 4 wk, six times). The T- plus-letrozole-treated group (13 boys) received T enanthate (as above) and, in addition, an aromatase inhibitor, letrozole 2.5 mg, orally, once a day for 12 months
Safety
The concentrations of total cholesterol, low and high density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglycerides, transaminases, the leukocyte count, and the bone density were determined during the follow-up. In these safety parameters, no changes sufficient to indicate discontinuation of the treatment were observed in any of the boys. Letrozole was well tolerated; no side-effects were observed.
OF course it is, that's NOT what I was discussing. A SERM is far more powerfull than an AI , that's a no-brainer. You clearly didn't read our discussion. I was arguing that a SERM is not side effect free and can't be part of a "perfect PCT" and that an AI should not be discluded in PCT like BBG suggested. That goes against all published science. SERMs and AI's target the only two pathways of which estrogen works, and gives you a great jumpstart into recovery when used together.I'm not sure where this is going. It should be clear that a SERM is better than an AI for PCT because instead of leaving an estrogen defecit in the system it acts as a mixed agonist/antagonist in pretty much the exact way you want it to (anagonist in breast and brain, agonist in liver and bone). With an AI you will lose the beneficial effects of estrogen/SERMs especially on liver and bone tissue. Only reason why I'd ever think of using one would be if aromatization or increased aromatase activity was a concern.
Definitely not - Erase standalone is not adequate enough for PCT. I told you what your PCT required in post #2.Rosie,ive heard people say that just use some ERASE as a PCT,do you think thats alright?
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