Not really politics, but Evolution... (cont. a thread)

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  1. All this talk about bacteria adapting to a stress is essentially moot because in the end they will always be bacteria.


    Genetic Mutations are not adaptations to stress.

    cc


  2. Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    I honestly can't believe some of your responses. I'm not challenging anyone's faith, I'm just saying, quit ignoring the facts about evolution and our primitive ancestry. Some of you REFUSE to even entertain the thought of a anything that is not included in the Bible.

    .
    What facts? I haven't seen any just yet that haven't been proved wrong.
    I don't REFUSE to intertain, so please post your "facts" if you say other people post nothing but BS.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Bean
    Intelligent Design poses no thought-provoking questions at all; its nothing but half-ignored facts and other-half-twisted facts to its own end.

    Anyone who has seriously studied evolution and how MUCH evidence there is to support it on so many levels can see how stupid ID really is.
    As I said, I don't believe in ID, so I'm not sure where your hostility is coming from. As far as evidence for evolution, please, post some. There's some evidence and as I said I do believe some form of evolution occurs. However, ID does raise good questions, and that's what you're supposed to do in science: question. Not blindly accept without question what you're told. One question is how highly specialized organisms and organs evolve. Now sometimes, as with the common example of a bird's wing, ID supports beg the question by assuming a purpose to an organ. And while that may hold true for other organs, like the eye for example, it's still a good question as to how something that highly specialized evolves now matter how much time it took.

    Having a science where it requires you to believe in a supernatural being or beings isnt science. Just like astrology.
    Many scientists believe in God.

    One really funny fact, is that in the Theory of Evolution; there is NOTHING that proves or disproves the existence of some creator... it does NOT deal with how life ORIGINATED.
    Which is why many people of faith have no problem incorporating it into their world view. However, answering the question of how life began in the first place would be necessary for such a theory to truly be complete. Evolution of life isn't a complete theory if it doesn't explain the evolution of nonliving matter to life.

    Web-spinning spiders are almost blind, but wandering spiders have great vision... its just a simple adaptation to their environment.
    If there's so much evidence, please show one example of a complex organism evolving as an adaptation to the environment. The problem many have with evolution is it seems impossible to pin down a change. Now this is most likely due to such an incomplete record in terms of fossils.

    If you simplify something down to claim a Giraffe "stretched" its neck over the years so it got longer; then you're just either being facescious (spelling?) or you're a complete idiot.
    Did you even read my post? The giraffe example was a claim made bt a friend which I used to explain my dislike for the fact that most people believe what they're told just as a lot people simply believe in this religion or that, with equally silly justifications all around. Until you drop the attitude and start actually reading posts you'll get no more responses from me.

    So those that had longer necks and generally taller bodies tended to have an advantage (aka extra food supply)... over time, the more specialized you got at getting stuff from the tops of the trees, the better the chance you had to live.... now accelerate this process over say, 3 million years. How MANY generations of animals do you think that is?
    Please, tell me since you're so learned. Then please tell me what genetic or metabolic pathway that when tripped will specifically cause the growth of new vertibrae in larger numbers with no deleterious effects to the individual animals and the species once the mutants breed. What you're saying is that if we as humans deprive ouselves of ladders and put all the food on the tops shelves after a million years or so our arms or necks will be longer. That's foolish, and if you know as much about evolution as you claim you'd know that.

    I dont mean any of my post to come off as offensive.
    You failed miserably.

    It might be wise for you to consider that many critics of evolution are not advancing the case for creationsim or Intelligent Design or any other theological agenda. They are simply questioning the strength of the evidence that exists thus far in favor of evolution and saying it's perhaps not as solid as many think. Another word of advice for all the self proclaimed scientists on this board: if you deny the abilty to question you are not a scientist, you are a religious fundamentalist of a different stripe, plain and simple.
    Last edited by CDB; 12-23-2005 at 07:00 PM.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by canadian champ
    All this talk about bacteria adapting to a stress is essentially moot because in the end they will always be bacteria.


    Genetic Mutations are not adaptations to stress.

    cc
    So then what are they adapting to? What causes the mutation? And how can a mutation lead to the development of the eye? What is the cause? What necessitates an eye? Does the bacteria just keep "thinking" "I need to see! I need to see!" and then poof, an eye starts to develop?

    What about everything else in that post? Rebuttals? Refutations?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by canadian champ
    This comment makes very little sense. There are countless examples of 'sustained mutations'. Consider RSV (Rous sarcoma Virus), or any of the many other retroviruses that have incorporated a human gene into their genome. Breed any colony of bacteria and induce a stress, resistance (via random alterations in their genome) will occur. This is a great example of a sustained and beneficial mutatition. Only the bacteria with this mutation can survive. It's difficult to notice mutations in humans because there is very little selective pressure on us as a species. I think protein homology across so many different species also provides clear evidence of a common origin. The statistical odds of such high levels of homology amongst so many species border on impossible.
    In terms of a dominant trait, no other member of the species needs to possess the mutation. In order for the mutation to be sustained, it must confer a selective advantage for the organism. If the selective pressure is great enough (as in the bacteria example) it will be both sustained and beneficial.
    My mistake. I meant in complex organisms, on the order of mammals, reptiles, etc.

    If you are using the term misfits to define being different from the population then this statement is correct. What you need to understand is that evolution isnt a linear process. Far from it, in fact, as the vast majority of mutations in a genome will occur in non-coding sections, or result in defective offspring. But the mutations that confer a specific advantage to that individual will result in greater propensity for propogation which would result in passing on the advantage to offspring...
    Which is how I remember evolution being explained to me when I was studying this topic. I don't remember one single example of such a mutation in a complex organism being given though.

    I dont believe that there is a large difference between micro and macro evolution. It's easy to understand micro evolution in terms of bacteria in culture, and it is also easy to see as the reproductive rate is exponential. To extrapolate this to larger more 'complex' species (not 'advanced') we need to slow down the reproductive rate and drastically increase the time frame. I believe that evolution is such a hard concept to accept because of the time frame involved. It is nearly impossible to understand hundreds of millions of years.
    What we need is a better way to examine the fossil record so specifc changes and the rise of new species can be tracked down, at least for one example.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    DNA is made of nucleic acids (not proteins) and holds instruction sets for building proteins.

    Just wanted to clear that up.
    My bad, thanks for correcting. This is what I was getting at:

    The letters D.N.A. stand for Deoxyribonucleic Acid. DNA is the informational blueprint of all known life forms excluding the questionable life forms of some viruses that use a similar chemical blueprint structure called R.N.A. (Ribonucleic Acid).
    DNA consists of 4 basic sub-units called nucleic acids (Adenine, Thymine, Guanine, and Cytosine). Each nucleic acid has a specific binding pair (A-T and C-G). These come together in the shape of a ladder twisted in a spiral that is commonly called a "Double Helix." Any letter can be next to any other on the poles of the ladder, but an "A" will only connect with a "T" across each "rung" or "step" of the ladder (Likewise a C with a G).
    These basic units of DNA, when arranged in specific orders and functional sections along the poles of the ladder, are called genes. Each gene contains a message or "code." These codes are read by specific groups of proteins that decode the message contained in the various DNA sequences of A, T, C, and G. The proteins that read the DNA make a single stranded "working copy" of the DNA called messenger RNA (mRNA). This process is called transcription. After mRNA is made, several other different groups of proteins read the mRNA message. These proteins that read the mRNA bring together single protein units called amino acids and attach them together to form a new chain of amino acids that, when folded properly, becomes a new functional protein (after some complicated modifications). Note that only twenty different amino acids are used by almost all living things to make proteins.
    Practically all living cells of all creatures on this earth form all their proteins in this manner. Proteins are the functional units of the cell. They make the cell able to work. Most functions of the cell depend on proteins to perform them - to including the creation of proteins to begin with. In fact, as has been very briefly detailed, proteins make themselves by decoding the information contained in DNA that tells the builder proteins how to make themselves. Every single step requires energy in the form of a molecule called Adenosine Tri-phosphate (A.T.P.). Not just any energy form will do. The cell can only use ATP to perform useful functions. It is very picky. And, interestingly enough, ATP is also created with the help of very specific proteins.








    In the very first cell (assuming that there was a “first” cell) what came first - the DNA or the protein? Of course, the protein that reads the DNA is itself coded for by the DNA. So, the protein could not be there first since its code or order is contained in the DNA that it decodes. Proteins would have to decode themselves before they could exist. So obviously, without the protein there first, the DNA would never be read and the protein would never be made. Likewise, the DNA could not have been there first since DNA is made and maintained by the proteins of the cell. Some popular theories about abiogenesis suggest that RNA probably evolved first and then DNA. But this doesn't remove the problem. RNA still has to be decoded by very specific proteins that are themselves coded for by the information contained in the RNA. Obviously both DNA and/or RNA and the fully formed decoding protein system would have to be present at the same time in order for the system as a whole to work. There simply is no stepwise function-based selection process since natural selection isn't even capable of working at this point in time.
    Just like the chicken and the egg paradox, it seems like the function of the most simple living cell is dependent upon all its parts being there in the proper order simultaneously. Some have referred to such systems as "irreducibly complex" in that if any one part is removed, the higher "emergent" function of the collective system vanishes. This apparent irreducibility of the living cell is found in the fact that DNA makes the proteins that make the DNA. Without either one of them, the other cannot be made or maintained. Since these molecules are the very basics of all life, it seems rather difficult to imagine a more primitive life form to evolve from. No one has been able to adequately propose what such a life form would have looked like or how it would have functioned. Certainly no such life form or pre-life form has been discovered. Even viruses and the like are dependent upon the existence of pre-established living cells to carry out their replication. They simply do not replicate by themselves. How then could the first cell have evolved from the non-living soup of the "primitive" prebiotic oceans?
    This really is quite a problem to try and explain. After all, what selective advantage would be gained for non-thinking atoms and molecules to form a living thing? They really gain nothing from this process so why would a mindless non-directed Nature select to bring life into existence? Natural selection really isn't a valid force at this point in time since there really is no conceivable advantage for mindless molecules to interact as parts of a living thing verses parts of an amorphous rock or a collection of sludge. Even if a lot of fully formed proteins and strings of fully formed DNA molecules were to come together at the same time, what are the odds that all the hundreds and thousands of uniquely specified proteins needed to decode both the DNA and mRNA, (not to mention the needed ATP molecules and the host of other unlisted "parts"), would all simultaneously fuse together in such a highly functional way? Not only has this phenomenon never been reproduced by any scientist in any laboratory on earth, but a reasonable mechanism by which such a phenomenon might even occur has never been proposed - outside of intelligent design that is.
    This is just one little problem that must be overcome to explain the existence of the very first living cell. According to the theory of evolution, the first living cell had to have been formed by mindless naturalistic mechanisms that defy all the known laws of nature. Natural law says that all inanimate matter desires equilibrium. Homogeny is the ultimate goal of nature, even with the input of large amounts of outside heat or disordered energy from the sun (just try heating up a collection of organic matter and see what happens - all that will happen is that it will become hot homogenous ooze, but nothing much more complex than this).
    The most simple living cell is almost infinitely far away from chaotic homogeny. Every living cell is at an extremely high level of meaninful informational complexity and yet just one of these amazing machines, which still cannot be reproduced by science, just happened to come together even before “natural selection” was even theoretically around?! Come on now. Is this a rational theory? Consider the fact that the simplest living cell is far more complicated than the best supercomputer in the world today. And yet many believe that such a cell assembled itself in the primitive ocean soup of this Earth just a few billion years ago? Really? Would anyone believe that a supercomputer could assemble itself in the shifting sands of the earth's primitive deserts even given trillions of years? Of course not . . . but why not?
    All the building blocks for a supercomputer are there mixed up in the desert sands. Volcanic activity, lightening, and wind could provide the necessary energy for construction. What's the problem then? Homogeny. Homogeny is the problem. Parts do not assemble themselves in a non-homogenous way that is very far beyond the sum of the collectively functional/meaningful information contained in the individual parts themselves. This just doesn't happen via the normal mindless processes of nature. Pre-established information and directed energy from an outside source is needed for the assembly of parts that produce a function that is very much greater than the informational sum of the individual parts. It is the pre-established order of a living cell, to include the pre-formed information contained in its DNA that allows it to be what it is. If brought together randomly, the individual parts of a cell would never self-assemble themselves into the form and function of a living cell regardless of how much outside energy and interactive potential was provided to the parts.
    It would be like taking millions of watch parts and shaking them all together for a billion years and expecting a watch to self-assemble just because all the necessary parts and required energy are there. After a billion years, or even trillions upon trillions of years, would anyone really expect something even close to the functional level of a watch to be formed by such a process? How then are the molecules that form a living cell any different?
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  7. I can only speak for Christianity, but accepting evolution is rejecting God's Word and God altogether. He has magnified His Word above even His own name. You absolutely cannot go the route of accepting Genesis as a fairy tale or allegory or however else mainstream Christians want to justify it so they can be on science's good side.
    If God used evolution to "create" all the animals and whatever in the world today, then He contradicted Himself when He said that on the sixth day all that He had made was VERY good. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, these involve death, and death didn't come into the world until Adam and Eve chose to disobey God.

    End of story. You cannot believe in God's Word in its entirety and still accept the theory of evolution as the means by which all the species today exist. And you cannot pick and choose what you will and will not believe from God's Word. The very idea is preposterous.
    But that's slightly off-topic. Let's get back to the main debate.

  8. Where do dinosaurs come into play in Christianity? Just Curious..

  9. Quote Originally Posted by TheCrownedOne
    I can only speak for Christianity, but accepting evolution is rejecting God's Word and God altogether. He has magnified His Word above even His own name. You absolutely cannot go the route of accepting Genesis as a fairy tale or allegory or however else mainstream Christians want to justify it so they can be on science's good side.
    If God used evolution to "create" all the animals and whatever in the world today, then He contradicted Himself when He said that on the sixth day all that He had made was VERY good. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, these involve death, and death didn't come into the world until Adam and Eve chose to disobey God.

    End of story. You cannot believe in God's Word in its entirety and still accept the theory of evolution as the means by which all the species today exist. And you cannot pick and choose what you will and will not believe from God's Word. The very idea is preposterous.
    But that's slightly off-topic. Let's get back to the main debate.
    I have to give an amen to that. If you are a Christian, take note of what he said. If you are not, it is a non issue.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by g4ud1n
    Where do dinosaurs come into play in Christianity? Just Curious..
    Dinosaurs are never actually mentioned in the Bible under that name, but there are numerous notations of dragons (probably just what dinosaurs were called before the word dinosaur was coined). Look the passage at the end of Job where it talks about the Behemoth which was, based on the descriptions, probably a dinosaur very similar to a brontosaurus. Also note the description of Leviathan there as well which may have been a fire-breathing dinosaur.
    Blowing fire isn't so far fetched if you consider a creature like the bombardier beetle with the glands that secrete chemicals from its rear that mix to form an exothermic reaction, providing a pretty descent defense against being eaten.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by TheCrownedOne
    So then what are they adapting to? What causes the mutation? And how can a mutation lead to the development of the eye? What is the cause? What necessitates an eye? Does the bacteria just keep "thinking" "I need to see! I need to see!" and then poof, an eye starts to develop?
    The general idea is that an eye didn't just poof into existence. This is the way many ID proponents say evolution works and reject it on that basis, and they are wrong. It's a strawman argument. The idea of an eye just developing, or of some protohorse having some mass mutation and mothering a race of zebras or giraffes isn't what is going on in evolutionary theory. A better explanation is that some sort of cells that were sensitive to radiation in the visible spectrum existed for some reason, maybe as a random mutation or maybe this trait arose out of environmental pressure. Then over a long ass period of time the trait was passed on, changed slightly here and there, some species with it died out, some continued, and over time the current organ we know as an eye developed.

    It's the jump from the simple to the complex that's hard to account for, no matter how much time passes. The reason the eye is a good example of this is because there are so many parts in there that make it work, and either it did come into being as a finished organ or it has to be explained how some generalized cells/organ evolved into the vitrious humor, the sclera, the retina, the optic nerve and disc, the cornea, the lens and the various ligaments and muscles that can focus it, etc. And that's just the human eye. The fact that there are many examples of the eye in different forms suggests that it did evolve. How it evolved is another matter. And also when becomes an issue. The fact that so many different species that must have separated from their common ancestor so long ago have such a similar organ would pose the question of whether or not it developed once and was passed down, or did it somehow develop simultaneously in different, existing species. Both approaches have problems. If it's the former every living organism would need to be descended from the first animal with eyes, a trilobite I believe, or we then have to explain how such similar specialized organs evolved seperately.
    Last edited by CDB; 12-23-2005 at 07:39 PM.

  12. How can the bible be God's word if the gospels included (or, rather, not included) were the result of a committee within the church hundreds of years after jesus died? Doesn't that seem contradictory to you? Do you seriously believe that Job was a real man? Don't you find that story a far-fetched allegory written to TEACH a MORAL STORY rather than an actual sequence of events?

    I'm not really an atheist (as some pro evolution people other than myself are), but how do you believe so many stories (although they do teach a genuine lesson, as they were INTENDED to) in their literal sense, without questioning their actual validity? Did you know that there is no proof that Moses actually existed, or that jewish people were actually enslaved by the Egyptians whatsoever? Do you believe that Noah had billions of species of animals in his Ark? Do you believe that the whole world flooded?

    If you look at the bible with any common sense whatsoever, you would find that it could only be the word of god through stories teaching valuable moral lessons. The world didn't flood 5000 years ago. A portion of the middle east flooded. Because the bible said the world flooded, do you believe that the whole world literally flooded? Do you believe the world was created in 6 days when, through actual scientific research, it took billions of years? Do you believe that God works in 24 hour increments? How long is a day to god?

    Athough any rational person can be a devout Christian both in thoughts and in action, no rational person can take the literal word of the Bible as infallible truth, because it's not.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    Same I can say about God. can be doubted only by those who are ignorant...

    Who cares? God has absolutely NOTHING to do with this discussion other than being the whole basis of ID; which means its a religo-science.

    No one's faith comes into question here; we are scientifically analyzing here. No one is questioning who created the universe or how it was created.

    And I swear, TheCrownedOne, you pulled that right off of a website. We're not discussing the Big Bang. Life's origins or the universe's origins is NOT being discussed in this thread. Stay on topic or don't bother posting.

    There are no meandering theories. You havent read enough if you're making that statement. Fossil and geologic records are evidence of things that really occur. Now if you'd like to debate THAT........

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Bean
    And I swear, TheCrownedOne, you pulled that right off of a website. We're not discussing the Big Bang. Life's origins or the universe's origins is NOT being discussed in this thread. Stay on topic or don't bother posting.
    Stay civil, or don't bother posting.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Bean

    There are no meandering theories. You havent read enough if you're making that statement. Fossil and geologic records are evidence of things that really occur. Now if you'd like to debate THAT........
    Your absolutely right. The fossil record shows no transitional species. Where are the millions of years of half horse half giraffe fossils.
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    As I said, I don't believe in ID, so I'm not sure where your hostility is coming from. As far as evidence for evolution, please, post some. There's some evidence and as I said I do believe some form of evolution occurs. However, ID does raise good questions, and that's what you're supposed to do in science: question. Not blindly accept without question what you're told. One question is how highly specialized organisms and organs evolve. Now sometimes, as with the common example of a bird's wing, ID supports beg the question by assuming a purpose to an organ. And while that may hold true for other organs, like the eye for example, it's still a good question as to how something that highly specialized evolves now matter how much time it took.
    I saved a special reply just for you. Because you're OBVIOUSLY not getting it. There's no hostility here... just exhaustion from having to say the same thing to people trying to spread misinformation (like you).

    As has been stated. MANY complex organs and limbs and such have been documented to evolve. Fossil records are there... nothing ID has can discount that. Yes there are some that havent been found, for whatever reason; be it severe climate changes causing records to be destroyed, or just too much decay.

    And you've missed the boat completely again. You're trying to argue the 'mechanism' for how things evolve and saying its all incorrect. You obviously havent read very much

    Evolution is fact. PERIOD. Only the mechanisms can be debated. IF you want to debate HOW something evolves so specialized then go ahead. But the 'purpose' for it which ID wants to keep throwing up in the air is nothing but ADAPTATION to some external event. USUALLY climate change and/or food supply. Fossil records and geologic evidence show this. And not just ONE little record either; which is how ID and other Creationist offshoots like to discredit evolution... there are THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of studies that illustrate this to be true. What other evidence does someone need?


    Many scientists believe in God.
    Who cares? That has nothing to do with it. They dont HAVE to believe in God to believe in evolution being correct, thats the basis of it. It has nothing to do with it. Are you understanding it correctly yet? I know you're probably of the classical western conservative upbringing (just like me in fact) and you've had it drilled into your head that evolution goes against the existence of God so it must be wrong.

    ID declares one MUST MUST MUST believe in some kind of creator or supernatural being; which the defenders of ID all privately believe is God; though they don't always admit it.

    I believe in God myself you know? Don't think I'm some heathen with your passive-aggressive stance

    Which is why many people of faith have no problem incorporating it into their world view. However, answering the question of how life began in the first place would be necessary for such a theory to truly be complete. Evolution of life isn't a complete theory if it doesn't explain the evolution of nonliving matter to life.
    ROFL

    You're again missing the point. Please go read for your sake. Evolution is NOT about how life began. Darwin has stated from the BEGINNING that it never was. Darwin was a Christian himself and so are most supporters (the ratio has only declined in recent years; and I dont think we can blame that on any one particular thing wouldnt you agree?).

    Have you had geometry before, I know you have. For something to become NOT a theory; it must become a LAW. A LAW is a empirically and mathematically proven event or particular in nature or physics or whatever. Law of Gravity, Laws of Thermodynamics, Newtonian Laws, etc. Evolution is FACT. There is more evidence to support it than anything else. It is SO overwhelming that it pretty much is ludicrous to bring something like Creationism to become 'an alternative' to it. But one can't merely prove it because they havent SEEN all of it happen. But on the other hand, there is so much evidence to prove that it DID... that people now state evolution as fact. Because it is. The MECHANISMS are theory... how fast to creatures evolve? what adaptations would allow them to adapt faster or without change?

    The world is a BIG place, and its VERY old. This is all fact. Many people cant grasp HOW old and HOW big it really is.

    If there's so much evidence, please show one example of a complex organism evolving as an adaptation to the environment. The problem many have with evolution is it seems impossible to pin down a change. Now this is most likely due to such an incomplete record in terms of fossils.
    Woolley Mammoths. Evolved from early elephantine-ancenstors. Fossils are all there. Evolved during a severe climate shift towards the cold. They have complete fossil records; hell even complete mammoths still with their hair. And these mammoths (many different varieties mind you) kept living for a very long time. Some species died out; some didnt. Some branches evolved into Modern African and Asian Elephants.

    Horses are another great example. The super small horses that came about and eventually died 2 million years ago in the South American Mountians. The fossil records for horses is AWESOME.

    Did you even read my post? The giraffe example was a claim made bt a friend which I used to explain my dislike for the fact that most people believe what they're told just as a lot people simply believe in this religion or that, with equally silly justifications all around. Until you drop the attitude and start actually reading posts you'll get no more responses from me.
    I apologize, I dont think that was directed squarely at you. But don't complain about my attitude; because the attitude about the little giraffe story is pretty piss-poor and close-minded. You might not have stated it yourself; but you did post it.

    Please, tell me since you're so learned. Then please tell me what genetic or metabolic pathway that when tripped will specifically cause the growth of new vertibrae in larger numbers with no deleterious effects to the individual animals and the species once the mutants breed. What you're saying is that if we as humans deprive ouselves of ladders and put all the food on the tops shelves after a million years or so our arms or necks will be longer. That's foolish, and if you know as much about evolution as you claim you'd know that.
    No thats not what I'm saying at all. Evolution is change in response to external forces. Period. That's basic understanding.

    I make no claims to know everything about evolution. I said I'm studying many things and that happens to be one of them. Don't feel so high and mighty because you grab a book off the shelf or run off to google with a search for some genetic mutation's definition. I only know you did that because of all the other garbage you've posted in this thread. They arent the postings of a man that knows at least the basics.

    You failed miserably.
    I guess that was for others and not for you then.

    It might be wise for you to consider that many critics of evolution are not advancing the case for creationsim or Intelligent Design or any other theological agenda. They are simply questioning the strength of the evidence that exists thus far in favor of evolution and saying it's perhaps not as solid as many think. Another word of advice for all the self proclaimed scientists on this board: if you deny the abilty to question you are not a scientist, you are a religious fundamentalist of a different stripe, plain and simple.
    I never said I was a self proclaimed scientist. Dunno where you got that from skippy

    I've been doing A LOT of studying into evolutionary theory, ancient civilizations, prehistory, modern hunter-gatherer tribes, etc. If you're educated, and you've read into it more than the modern high-school level biology textbook talks about it; you'll know there are MANY misconceptions about things that people have totally wrong.
    THIS is what I said. I see nothing about scientist in this paragraph do you? I mentioned that I was educated.... that doesnt mean scientist. I've simply stated I've been reading al ot into it. Not specific mechanisms of evolution but the idea behind the whole thing together. You can study a bigger picture without having to study the brush strokes itself. Some people don't understand this.

    But some others do have a self-important feel about everything and try to counter every argument just because they find it fun to bash on others.... I think you're of this type

  17. Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    What we need is a better way to examine the fossil record so specifc changes and the rise of new species can be tracked down, at least for one example.
    I'll keep my responses civil.

    This is where sabermetrics applies. Check out 'Full House' by the late Stephen J Gould. Good stuff. He first starts out explaining his method of basic statistical ananylsis and gradually gets more complex with it as he discusses horses, the .400 batting average, etc.

    Great and informative and well-respected book.

  18. The complexity of the human body and mind is more than enough proof for me that we aren't an "accident" or a result of random mutations.

    That said, as a previous poster noted, "evolutionists" show many of the same characteristics of the religious people they insult.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by TheCrownedOne
    I can only speak for Christianity, but accepting evolution is rejecting God's Word and God altogether. He has magnified His Word above even His own name. You absolutely cannot go the route of accepting Genesis as a fairy tale or allegory or however else mainstream Christians want to justify it so they can be on science's good side.
    If God used evolution to "create" all the animals and whatever in the world today, then He contradicted Himself when He said that on the sixth day all that He had made was VERY good. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, these involve death, and death didn't come into the world until Adam and Eve chose to disobey God.

    End of story. You cannot believe in God's Word in its entirety and still accept the theory of evolution as the means by which all the species today exist. And you cannot pick and choose what you will and will not believe from God's Word. The very idea is preposterous.
    But that's slightly off-topic. Let's get back to the main debate.
    I'm sorry, but you don't speak for Christianity. What is and what isnt God's Word is very VERY debateable. The idea of the 'creation' of the Bible has already been discussed (and is historical fact).

    The Bible is a collection of stories IMO. Good, ethical stories about how one should live in a civilized society. They have been translated over and over and over again to all kinds of different languages. Jesus's language was Aramaic, so why was the original New Testament written in Latin?

    Quote Originally Posted by brogers
    The complexity of the human body and mind is more than enough proof for me that we aren't an "accident" or a result of random mutations.

    That said, as a previous poster noted, "evolutionists" show many of the same characteristics of the religious people they insult.
    No, they just have evidence to prove their point

    I don't think we're an accident either. I think God meant for it to happen this way. One can always say we were destined to come about... there's not really much to refute that statement.

    If you've got a wall outside a bar to the left that represents single-celled organisms, and a gutter 15ft away that represents humanity... then the drunk meandering away from the wall will EVENTUALLY wind up in the gutter. He cant walk straight, so he wobbles back and forth, possibly sometimes hitting the wall again... but statistics will eventually win out and he will wander far enough to fall into the gutter

  20. Quote Originally Posted by bpmartyr
    Your absolutely right. The fossil record shows no transitional species. Where are the millions of years of half horse half giraffe fossils.
    You're missing the picture here.

    Life doesnt evolve like a ladder. It doesnt go from point A to point B. The way evolution works won't allow that. It branches out. Its more like a bush than a ladder.

    And for your half-horse, half-giraffe fossils... to answer it simply; they are called Old-World Horses I believe... and there are TONS of fossils. I believe the last species died out about 3 million years ago.

    Same argument. Humans didnt evolve FROM apes. We evolved WITH apes. Its common misconception. There are so many hominid fossils out there to document the gradual trends. People look at humanity and say. We evolved. Well we did; but we're the little twig on the outside of a bush. The rest of the hominids failed. And we havent been around very long either If the world keeps growing at its current rate then there's going to be some serious issues in 100 years.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    What facts? I haven't seen any just yet that haven't been proved wrong.
    I don't REFUSE to intertain, so please post your "facts" if you say other people post nothing but BS.
    Well, the problem is, the researchers responsible for the facts are the ones you're saying are a bunch of BSers. So, if the source of the information isn't good enough for YOU there is nothing that can be done about that now is there?

    Did you even bother to read the citations in my first post? A few of those citations were even from recent school text books, lol. Then again, I guess the author of that article was correct when he said some people will never get past the fact that we can't ever prove anything....in that instance, we're only 99.999...9% sure (basically, the limit of 100%) of evolution.

    And, if a person can't believe tangible evidence provided by living people (some deceased, but their work is still here) how does anybody expect us to believe that God created anything?

  22. Quote Originally Posted by bpmartyr
    Your absolutely right. The fossil record shows no transitional species. Where are the millions of years of half horse half giraffe fossils.
    Most likely those types of mutations came from the process of crossing over, etc, etc.

    Look at down's syndrome, for example. Makes a person almost entirely different from other people. All it is is a simple mutation in the 23rd chromosome. Now, if some common mutation like that arises and is benificial, then it will obviously be preferred by natural selection.

    Don't be confused into thinking a defect and a mutation are different. There are mutations good and bad. A bad mutation is usually called a defect.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by TheCrownedOne
    So then what are they adapting to? What causes the mutation? And how can a mutation lead to the development of the eye? What is the cause? What necessitates an eye? Does the bacteria just keep "thinking" "I need to see! I need to see!" and then poof, an eye starts to develop?

    What about everything else in that post? Rebuttals? Refutations?
    There are many reasons for genetic mutations. The number one reason are simple replication errors. The error correction machinery responsible for editing and fixing random DNA replication errors (remember, bases bind during replication due to random interactions, and some times mismatch bases can occur) is not perfect. This allows for mutations to occur. Another example is carcinogens. Certain chemicals, radiation (UV and ionizing radiation) can cause changes in DNA. This cannot be refuted. Many non-coding regions of our DNA exist as a result of retroviral insertion. Also, chromosomal recombination which occurs during mitosis which can result in mutations/translocations/deletions/amplification.

    You are asking the wrong questions, "What are they adapting to? What necessitates the eye?"
    As I said before, the mutations are random and if they confer an advantage to that organism, selective pressures (such as survival, prey avoidance, sexual selection, etc) can select for it and thus it may become a main stay in the environment. Nothing neccesitates the eye, but being able to distinguish light from dark is an advantage for many creatures. Certain fish that live in total darkness do not have functional eyes. Why? If random mutations caused the development of sight, this creature would not have any advantage over blind fish. Thus, everntually this mutation will be weened out.
    cc

  24. About this eye development business...
    Eyes, ranging from a simple light sensitive cell to the complex eye, have been found to exist in reasonable intermediate steps, in different lineages of sight-capable species'. This offers much evidence to support the theory that simple changes in cells, across millions of years, can progressively develop into a complex eye over millions of years.

    The odds that so many proteins are homologous between organisms in specific lineages is statistacially impossible. By studying the aa and nt sequences of proteins that serve similar functions in lineages of species, there is a clear and (in my opinion) irrefutable progression of these proteins.

    cc

  25. Quote Originally Posted by canadian champ
    There are many reasons for genetic mutations. The number one reason are simple replication errors. The error correction machinery responsible for editing and fixing random DNA replication errors (remember, bases bind during replication due to random interactions, and some times mismatch bases can occur) is not perfect. This allows for mutations to occur. Another example is carcinogens. Certain chemicals, radiation (UV and ionizing radiation) can cause changes in DNA. This cannot be refuted. Many non-coding regions of our DNA exist as a result of retroviral insertion. Also, chromosomal recombination which occurs during mitosis which can result in mutations/translocations/deletions/amplification.

    You are asking the wrong questions, "What are they adapting to? What necessitates the eye?"
    As I said before, the mutations are random and if they confer an advantage to that organism, selective pressures (such as survival, prey avoidance, sexual selection, etc) can select for it and thus it may become a main stay in the environment. Nothing neccesitates the eye, but being able to distinguish light from dark is an advantage for many creatures. Certain fish that live in total darkness do not have functional eyes. Why? If random mutations caused the development of sight, this creature would not have any advantage over blind fish. Thus, everntually this mutation will be weened out.
    cc
    Only the great moderator in the sky knows for sure but,,,,concerning the giraffee or long necked horse.The evolution therory is not that the horse needed a longer neck so it evolved one.The theory concures that though there are many genetic mutations that occur when so many cells divide imperfectly. The mutations that survive are the mutations that best adapt to a given eviroments survival key,most commonly access to food.So in an enviroment that has food supplies that are above the ground a long neck is the ticket to eating living and recreating...go darwin,go darwin, goooo
    It is a rather intelligent theory though.Big brain make fire!tell everyone god love him and he better love him back or he will kick your ass.now give god some money or I swear you are going right to hell.consider it a form of after life insurance.Sex is bad now give me all your virgin daughters or your crops will die.Vote for me or the terrorist win.
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