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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Where do you draw the line at murder for abortion then? At what point in a pregnancy is it considered murder in your eyes? A life is being taken regardless of the way you look at it. Why is it the mothers choice, and the child gets no choice to live? If there are complications I can see that, there are always going to exceptions to the rule. But to freely take a life because, what, you aren't going to be ready for bikini season?
    I think the bikini comment is a tad silly, but so be it. I think calling it murder is a bit harsh, however, after the first trimester it really is up to ones own interpretation. At this point, there is little the anti-abortion crowd can do. The court is set as it is, and to be honest, I expect at least 2 more retirements on the court sooner rather than later, and that will not help your cause.



    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    As for your edit... seriously? You are going to invite a reverse racial comment like that into a real conversation? We could go back and forth all day about disgusting acts portrayed by ignorance.... Sotomayor's ruling on the New Haven fire fighters comes to mind.

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    I couldnt agree more here. Her appointment is horrible IMO, and that is only one of the cases where she has raised my concern.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I think the bikini comment is a tad silly, but so be it. I think calling it murder is a bit harsh, however, after the first trimester it really is up to ones own interpretation. At this point, there is little the anti-abortion crowd can do. The court is set as it is, and to be honest, I expect at least 2 more retirements on the court sooner rather than later, and that will not help your cause.
    Oh I know my stance is not going to be heard during this administration, at least. But it doesn't abate me from speaking on moral ground to the least. For the first time since polling, Pro-Life out weighs Pro-Choice. Since it was polled in the beginning, it has always been the other way around, people are starting to realize there are too many options out there to relieve a baby of their life. Will my ideal morals ever become the norm? probably not, but doesn't mean I will just lay down and let it be.

    I mean the heart is beating in the first trimester, what make the first trimester the magical number to call him or her life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Oh I know my stance is not going to be heard during this administration, at least. But it doesn't abate me from speaking on moral ground to the least. For the first time since polling, Pro-Life out weighs Pro-Choice. Since it was polled in the beginning, it has always been the other way around, people are starting to realize there are too many options out there to relieve a baby of their life. Will my ideal morals ever become the norm? probably not, but doesn't mean I will just lay down and let it be.

    I mean the heart is beating in the first trimester, what make the first trimester the magical number to call him or her life?

    Adams

    IMO, the first trimester is that "magical" time. Medically it has been shown that there are many greater risks during the 1st trimester than the other 2. In fact, in many instances, a fetus has died for very little known reason.

    After that however, I cannot see any reason (outside of mothers health) for it to occur.

    I was not trying to say you shouldnt voice your opinion, just bear in mind, for the anti-abortion crowd it is going to get far worse when Ginsburg and possibly Kennedy retire soon

    Personally I am pro-choice during the 1st trimester, but could never be a part of an abortion personally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    IMO, the first trimester is that "magical" time. Medically it has been shown that there are many greater risks during the 1st trimester than the other 2. In fact, in many instances, a fetus has died for very little known reason.

    After that however, I cannot see any reason (outside of mothers health) for it to occur.

    I was not trying to say you shouldnt voice your opinion, just bear in mind, for the anti-abortion crowd it is going to get far worse when Ginsburg and possibly Kennedy retire soon

    Personally I am pro-choice during the 1st trimester, but could never be a part of an abortion personally.
    Understandable, hopefully the change if public opinion sways the political direction even after their retirement. I personally would like to see federalism actually work (10th Amendment), this is not a Federal matter, instead is a state matter. But that is here nor there.

    The spontaneous miscarriage is 90% of the time attributed to genetic issues, and not something man could have helped.

    Just more of a reason to keep supporting Ron Paul, so I can keep my government close to me (State) instead of having arrogant lobbyist making all my decisions for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Understandable, hopefully the change if public opinion sways the political direction even after their retirement. I personally would like to see federalism actually work (10th Amendment), this is not a Federal matter, instead is a state matter. But that is here nor there.

    The spontaneous miscarriage is 90% of the time attributed to genetic issues, and not something man could have helped.

    Just more of a reason to keep supporting Ron Paul, so I can keep my government close to me (State) instead of having arrogant lobbyist making all my decisions for me.
    Couldnt agree more, this should be a state issue
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Understandable, hopefully the change if public opinion sways the political direction even after their retirement. I personally would like to see federalism actually work (10th Amendment), this is not a Federal matter, instead is a state matter. But that is here nor there.

    The spontaneous miscarriage is 90% of the time attributed to genetic issues, and not something man could have helped.

    Just more of a reason to keep supporting Ron Paul, so I can keep my government close to me (State) instead of having arrogant lobbyist making all my decisions for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Couldnt agree more, this should be a state issue
    The problem I have with this being divided between the States is that it's not a government issue, it's an issue of morality. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about State-government, but when it comes to abortion, should one state really be allowed to say it's okay while another say it isn't? Can you divide moral issues like that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    The problem I have with this being divided between the States is that it's not a government issue, it's an issue of morality. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about State-government, but when it comes to abortion, should one state really be allowed to say it's okay while another say it isn't? Can you divide moral issues like that?
    Unfortunately government takes on moral issues. I am with you on the fact that it is a gross bastardization of morality from a party/class that supposedly preaches peace and good being for all.

    Federal government isn't suppose to impose on state governments, but work for them, that is not the case. It's the nature of the beast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    I am so furious reading 90% of this I don't even know where to start, literally.

    I just pity those on judgement day....really
    I agree my freind, God will judge those who practice lawlessness. A lot of people with planks in there eye are looking at the specks in others. Sin is sin and no matter which one a individual is doing it is still sin in gods eyes the penalty is all the same. Murders, theives, phornicators, liars, and etc.. the list goes on. And I know every one on here is not a christan or beliver and thats cool that still dosent exclude you from the coming judgement. Not beliving isnt going to stop it from happening. Instead of mauling these individuals that are practicing abortion or the black panther extremist or are goverment, try praying for them because complainning isnt getting any thing done. The power of life and death are in the tongue, I see a lot of death and negativity being spoken by a lot of individuals not all but a lot. I know I wont be popular among all the cool KIDS that dont like this but I realy dont care. Its time truth begins to be spoken and not be twisted and contourted. For People that cant see that prophecy is being fulfilled, I pray you take the blinders off. REPENT and get your self right with GOD befor YOU end up with these abortion doctors and crooked politicans and racist groups. I may have gotten off the subject but, oh this whole thread has jumped from one subject to another. I guess I don changed the game. I cant wait to wake up and read the replies to this. Bring on the Persecution, I was born for this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NattyT View Post
    I agree my freind, God will judge those who practice lawlessness. A lot of people with planks in there eye are looking at the specks in others. Sin is sin and no matter which one a individual is doing it is still sin in gods eyes the penalty is all the same. Murders, theives, phornicators, liars, and etc.. the list goes on. And I know every one on here is not a christan or beliver and thats cool that still dosent exclude you from the coming judgement. Not beliving isnt going to stop it from happening. Instead of mauling these individuals that are practicing abortion or the black panther extremist or are goverment, try praying for them because complainning isnt getting any thing done. The power of life and death are in the tongue, I see a lot of death and negativity being spoken by a lot of individuals not all but a lot. I know I wont be popular among all the cool KIDS that dont like this but I realy dont care. Its time truth begins to be spoken and not be twisted and contourted. For People that cant see that prophecy is being fulfilled, I pray you take the blinders off. REPENT and get your self right with GOD befor YOU end up with these abortion doctors and crooked politicans and racist groups. I may have gotten off the subject but, oh this whole thread has jumped from one subject to another. I guess I don changed the game. I cant wait to wake up and read the replies to this. Bring on the Persecution, I was born for this.
    I have to laugh at some of this. Prophecy has been "fufilled" for millenia. Hell, when the OT was written and specifically revelations (which is the prophecy you are referring to), the prophecy was being fufilled by Nero. Hell, all these millenia later, here we are, no judgement day

    At the end of the day, you do realize that your religion that you preach on here consistently, is BORROWED. There is nothing unique about it. The story of jesus (virgin birth, miracles, etc...) were taken from earlier PAGAN sources. Even the damn holidays are borrowed. I wonder if you would be so fervent in your beliefs if you realized that what you worship is based on Egyptian paganism, Roman paganism, and Persian paganism, just to name a few.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post

    At the end of the day, you do realize that your religion that you preach on here consistently, is BORROWED. There is nothing unique about it. The story of jesus (virgin birth, miracles, etc...) were taken from earlier PAGAN sources. Even the damn holidays are borrowed. I wonder if you would be so fervent in your beliefs if you realized that what you worship is based on Egyptian paganism, Roman paganism, and Persian paganism, just to name a few.
    I can't say much of these pagan sources, but if it's true that the stories are similar, why can't it be possible that the creators of these religions saw the prophecy in the OT and decided to create their own counterfeit? - Just throwing the question out there. As I said, I don't know a whole lot about the other religions you speak of, other than the paganism talked about in the Bible, so don't think I'm trying to make a solid argument. ha. Just asking a question.

    And just because something is similar does not mean it's the same. You speak of "virgin births" and I've read a decent bit of other religions that have used this concept, but it's not quite the same thing as the virgin birth of Christ.

    Just because others had the idea to use virgin birth doesn't negate my beliefs. That's all I'm saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    I can't say much of these pagan sources, but if it's true that the stories are similar, why can't it be possible that the creators of these religions saw the prophecy in the OT and decided to create their own counterfeit? - Just throwing the question out there. As I said, I don't know a whole lot about the other religions you speak of, other than the paganism talked about in the Bible, so don't think I'm trying to make a solid argument. ha. Just asking a question.

    And just because something is similar does not mean it's the same. You speak of "virgin births" and I've read a decent bit of other religions that have used this concept, but it's not quite the same thing as the virgin birth of Christ.

    Just because others had the idea to use virgin birth doesn't negate my beliefs. That's all I'm saying.
    I understand where you are coming from, however they predate the OT, many by millenia.

    The virgin birth of Horus is identical to that of Jesus, as is the representation of who they were as savior and "diety"
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I understand where you are coming from, however they predate the OT, many by millenia.

    The virgin birth of Horus is identical to that of Jesus, as is the representation of who they were as savior and "diety"
    It may predate the text itself. I know the Bible hasn't been around for that long (relatively speaking) and was originally a set of scrolls that were compiled to make the entire book. - I guess what I'm saying is that I believe in the Godhead, and if Christ was around at creation, therefore he already was the first, whether in writing or not.

    So are you saying that the story of Horus was around before the OT TEXT, or before the OT scripture and stories were ever spoken of? Do you see what I'm trying to understand?

    I mean, Job is the oldest book of the Bible, predating the flood and all of that stuff. The book openly talks about dinosaurs and all that jazz...I know I'm rambling here...

    What I mean is if Adam and Eve were in fact the first humans, how can the story of the Egyptians predate them?

    Sorry if I'm not speaking coherently. Thoughts keep popping in my head, and I'm trying to grill about 9 chicken breasts right now, too.
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    One man proved his divine appointment and by doing the one thing nobody ever has or will do. He rose from the dead and walked out of his grave. You can argue this fact all you want but I am convinced and I know the eye witnesses to the event were as well in that they willingly suffered persecution and horrible deaths for it.

    A man may die for something he believes to be true but certainly not for something he knows to be false especially as there was no benefit to spreading a lie like that. "I will give up my normal life and possessions, leave my family to travel to distant lands all to suffer and die even though what I preach is an absolute fabrication and will not save anyone."

    His message was clear, "I did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it. Whoever believes in me is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in me is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son."

    Believe it, or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    It may predate the text itself. I know the Bible hasn't been around for that long (relatively speaking) and was originally a set of scrolls that were compiled to make the entire book. - I guess what I'm saying is that I believe in the Godhead, and if Christ was around at creation, therefore he already was the first, whether in writing or not.

    So are you saying that the story of Horus was around before the OT TEXT, or before the OT scripture and stories were ever spoken of? Do you see what I'm trying to understand?

    I mean, Job is the oldest book of the Bible, predating the flood and all of that stuff. The book openly talks about dinosaurs and all that jazz...I know I'm rambling here...

    What I mean is if Adam and Eve were in fact the first humans, how can the story of the Egyptians predate them?

    Sorry if I'm not speaking coherently. Thoughts keep popping in my head, and I'm trying to grill about 9 chicken breasts right now, too.

    first, you just made me hungry.

    The OT as a collection of stories talks about events in the past, but were not written at the time of the events. The Egyptian creation (Zep Tepi) is roughly dadted to prior to the flood (roughly 10,500 BCE), so Isis, Osiris, Set, Nepthys and Horus were supposedly around at that time. At least that is what the Egyptians believed. With that said, the correlation between the stories of Isis/Horus and Mary/Jesus are uncanny
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpmartyr View Post
    One man proved his divine appointment and by doing the one thing nobody ever has or will do. He rose from the dead and walked out of his grave. You can argue this fact all you want but I am convinced and I know the eye witnesses to the event were as well in that they willingly suffered persecution and horrible deaths for it.

    A man may die for something he believes to be true but certainly not for something he knows to be false especially as there was no benefit to spreading a lie like that. "I will give up my normal life and possessions, leave my family to travel to distant lands all to suffer and die even though what I preach is an absolute fabrication and will not save anyone."

    His message was clear, "I did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it. Whoever believes in me is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in me in condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son."

    Believe it, or not.
    I am not trying ot argue with you at all, however this is the same story as Horus
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I am not trying ot argue with you at all, however this is the same story as Horus
    Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have 'risen' in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern most certainly it was never considered as an annual event.

    Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.… This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpmartyr View Post
    Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have 'risen' in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern most certainly it was never considered as an annual event.

    Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.… This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ.
    I actually said Horus, not Osiris. However, Horus did "raise" Osiris from the dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I actually said Horus, not Osiris. However, Horus did "raise" Osiris from the dead.
    K.

    I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes "merged" with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere...

    Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld.

    Indeed, the description of the conception of Horus will show exactly the sexual elements that characterize pagan 'miracle births', as noted by the scholars earlier:

    "But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..."
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    Well she was just a little whore.
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    I shouldn't have got into this as it is waaay off topic and I really don't have the time or interest in debating this as it appears somewhat valid on the surface but falls apart once seriously considered.

    I am out.
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    falls apart? lol

    Ok, here we go:

    Isis seems to have been originally a virgin (or, perhaps, sexless) goddess, and in the later period of Egyptian religion she was again considered a virgin goddess, demanding very strict abstinence from her devotees.
    Horus was said to be the parthenogenetic child of the Virgin Mother, Isis. In the catacombs of Rome black statues of this Egyptian divine Mother and Infant still survive from the early Christian worship of the Virgin and Child to which they were converted. In these the Virgin Mary is represented as a black regress, and often with the face veiled in the true Isis fashion. When Christianity absorbed the pagan myths and rites it adopted also the pagan statues, and renamed them as saints, or even as apostles.

    Statues of the goddess Isis with the child Horus in her arms were common in Egypt, and were exported to all neighbouring and to many remote countries, where they are still to be found with new names attached to them-Christian in Europe, Buddhist in Turkestan, Taoist in China and Japan. Figures of the virgin Isis do duty as representations of Mary, of Hariti, of Kuan-Yin, of Kwannon, and of other virgin mothers of gods.
    They are the same story. The early christians, in an attempt to rid themselves of the Roman persecution, added in many different pagan beliefs to tie themselves to other religions. (check the catacombs of Rome for interesting view of the depictions of Jesus as a roman).

    Also of note, is that the cross was used by horus as well in the form of the Ankh as the sign of eternal life.

    Furthermore, check into Mithras, Quetzalcoatl, and Sol Invictus for other ealier references to Jesus and Christianity before it existed
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    I just don't understand how one can discount their belief system citing flaws within story lines and defend their 2 thousand year old eye witness accounts as true. A being never met is given all the benefits of the doubt but as soon as you hear someone claiming to be God and even 'showing miracles of healing' is immediately tossed aside as a nut.


    I believe there's a supreme being that unfolded this universe but the Bible seems to be a massive undertaking of human hands and devices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I just don't understand how one can discount their belief system citing flaws within story lines and defend their 2 thousand year old eye witness accounts as true. A being never met is given all the benefits of the doubt but as soon as you hear someone claiming to be God and even 'showing miracles of healing' is immediately tossed aside as a nut.


    I believe there's a supreme being that unfolded this universe but the Bible seems to be a massive undertaking of human hands and devices.
    I definitely understand where you're coming from as I have had plenty of skeptical times in my life, but the more I question, and the more I seek answers, there more I see truth in it.

    While there are a lot of arguments against the Bible that seem sound, there seems to always be something that's strategically left out.

    It's much more easy to try to destroy the Bible's credibility when you have that agenda rather than an unbiased, or even "don't know where I stand" person. CS Lewis was an atheist who later became a Christian, and that man forgot more things in his lifetime than I could ever hope to know. If anyone could have destroyed the Bible, it would have been him, but the brilliant man he was saw the truth in it.

    I don't at all have a problem with people trying to discredit the Bible. I believe we were given the minds we have to do such things...seek out the truth.
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    I definitely understand where you're coming from as I have had plenty of skeptical times in my life, but the more I question, and the more I seek answers, there more I see truth in it.
    Just like just about everything else in life, you can see whatever you wish to see and convincing others to see as you do is damn near impossible. I have no problems with anyone's belief or lack thereof. My problems are with those who are not content with their belief but must ridicule those with differing views.
  

  
 

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