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  1. In that last statement that you made...I can understand that about not having sympathy for a doctor who has removed life from this earth...but, at the same time, nor can i have sympathy for an idiot doctor who misdiagnosis 7 patients and kills them, even AFTER he was stripped of his license.

    I am just finding it very hard for you to classify abortion doctors as murderers. There is no intent. They are being instructed by the mother, no? This person has been given permission to perform an act in which the mother KNOWS FULL WELL what the end result is going to be....I walk into a doctors office to be treated for the common cold and next week, I am dead because he gave me the wrong medicine? Wait, let's say he just accidentally wrote the wrong prescription...that makes it better..of course it does!
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  2. Let me just end by saying this:

    I respect both you and IC's points on most things, and, on many view points, you both have valid arguments, but I cannot, will not, categorize an abortion doctor as a murderer...that is purely ludicrous. I do not condone mothers doing it, yet, it is THEIR decision, purely, not ours.
    ---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    Let me just end by saying this:

    I respect both you and IC's points on most things, and, on many view points, you both have valid arguments, but I cannot, will not, categorize an abortion doctor as a murderer...that is purely ludicrous. I do not condone mothers doing it, yet, it is THEIR decision, purely, not ours.
    It is most certainly their decision as it is set by the highest court in the land. Case closed at this point.

    In terms of abortion doctors as murderers? That is an interesting one for me. IMO, any abortion doctor, who completes the act after the first trimester(outside of the pregancy affecting the health of the mother) is a murderer. There is no reason, outside of what I posted previously to carry on the procedure after the first 3 months.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    About your statement on car accidents. Why can it not be considered murder? If you partake in a night of partying, drink until drunkenness, and drive home, hit someone, and kill a family, why is it not murder? You're saying that if you are driving drunk, hit and kill someone, that it is accidental? Or are we just talking about making a mistake and barreling through a red traffic light, while sober on a joy ride? No, let's just call it a poor decision and slap them on the wrist, give them a few years and it's all nice after that. No, wait, let's throw it all out of court, say it was a bad decision, like the doctors make bad decisions, and just let them go....better yet, forget the law, let's just go back to the barbaric days when we could just kill whomever we wanted too. Solves the problem of over population, correct?

    No...it should be categorized as murder. It is premeditated, imo. If you are completely drunk and drive, kill someone, that should be deemed as premeditated murder. They, if they survive, should get face the same consequences as someone who breaks into a house to rob, and kills the family members.
    I didn't state anything about drunken driving, in fact those cases are usually charged at second degree murder if there isn't a deal struck. Your candor is becoming incessant for a real discussion. Guess what... REAL ACCIDENTS do happen, it's not all malice and ill intent as you seem to allude to in each and every one of your posts. Your take on the law and how it is deemed seems to be misguided on many counts. Intent is a big factor in how a jury judges, that is the great thing about our legal system, you are judged by your peers. If reckless driving was a cause, you can be charged with a degree of murder. So again, your legal sense is somewhat misguided.

    I will refrain from addressing the former as you are not addressing me.

    Adams
    The Historic PES Legend

  5. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    It is most certainly their decision as it is set by the highest court in the land. Case closed at this point.

    In terms of abortion doctors as murderers? That is an interesting one for me. IMO, any abortion doctor, who completes the act after the first trimester(outside of the pregancy affecting the health of the mother) is a murderer. There is no reason, outside of what I posted previously to carry on the procedure after the first 3 months.
    Here's some interesting statistics...

    http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

    Why women have abortions
    1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).


    What bothers me also is the "health problems regarding either the mother or child" - this includes mentally challenged children, and the term "health" is stretched (ha) so far when speaking of the mother that it can mean something as little as the fear of stretch marks.

    I want to know exactly what percentage of abortions occur because the doctor says, "If you have this baby, there's a good chance you will die from complications." - And in this case, what about a C-section?
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    Let me just end by saying this:

    I respect both you and IC's points on most things, and, on many view points, you both have valid arguments, but I cannot, will not, categorize an abortion doctor as a murderer...that is purely ludicrous. I do not condone mothers doing it, yet, it is THEIR decision, purely, not ours.
    Please classify murder for me then. Because is taking a life intentionally not murder? How about prebirth abortion? Laboring till the baby crowns then spiking a hole in their head to vacuum out the brain? Not murder yet? How about the addition to the FOCA, late term abortion... where if a baby survives abortion and birthed, then left on the hospital bed till either starves or suffocates to death since no assistance is given? Murder yet?

    Why is a baby only deemed a life if the mother deems him/her life? No matter what faith if any you are, since when do we get to play God with a babies life?

    Adams
    The Historic PES Legend

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    What bothers me also is the "health problems regarding either the mother or child" - this includes mentally challenged children, and the term "health" is stretched (ha) so far when speaking of the mother that it can mean something as little as the fear of stretch marks.
    This part does bother me as well.. i have a mentally challenged brother. Guess what, he walks, talks, and has his own personality. He is loved by all, and only requires more care than the average person. Why is he now deemed a problem?

    Adams
    The Historic PES Legend

  8. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Please classify murder for me then. Because is taking a life intentionally not murder? How about prebirth abortion? Laboring till the baby crowns then spiking a hole in their head to vacuum out the brain? Not murder yet? How about the addition to the FOCA, late term abortion... where if a baby survives abortion and birthed, then left on the hospital bed till either starves or suffocates to death since no assistance is given? Murder yet?

    Why is a baby only deemed a life if the mother deems him/her life? No matter what faith if any you are, since when do we get to play God with a babies life?

    Adams
    This one kills me. I tear up anytime I hear it talked about. It disgusts me to no end, and our president voted yes on the bill three times.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    This one kills me. I tear up anytime I hear it talked about. It disgusts me to no end, and our president voted yes on the bill three times.
    I agree, how can anyone not think humanity is going down the toilet when this is even an option in any sense?
    The Historic PES Legend

  10. Just to make FOCA a little more clear:

    "declares that it is the policy of the United States that every woman has the fundamental right to choose to bear a child; terminate a pregnancy prior to fetal viability; or terminate a pregnancy after viability when necessary to protect her life or her health.
    Fetal viability is defined as prior to 5 months gestational age.

    What has been described previously is downright awful, however FOCA as it is written is not the issue

  11. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Just to make FOCA a little more clear:



    Fetal viability is defined as prior to 5 months gestational age.

    What has been described previously is downright awful, however FOCA as it is written is not the issue
    You are pulling from the 2004 version of the FOCA... FOCA now includes partial birth abortion (which is full term abortion), and the new revision is to include live birth abortion. The only time we will get to see the revision is very close prior to vote, just like the stimulus bill, just long enough so the fine print cannot be read. You can find plenty of advocates stating the contents of FOCA, to include partial and live birth abortions.

    If they pass FOCA, you can expect 15% of hospitals to either not respect the law, or close all together as stated by the catholic church. Forcing immorality on a doctor takes away a birth right freedom.

    Adams
    The Historic PES Legend

  12. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    You are pulling from the 2004 version of the FOCA... FOCA now includes partial birth abortion (which is full term abortion), and the new revision is to include live birth abortion. The only time we will get to see the revision is very close prior to vote, just like the stimulus bill, just long enough so the fine print cannot be read. You can find plenty of advocates stating the contents of FOCA, to include partial and live birth abortions.

    If they pass FOCA, you can expect 15% of hospitals to either not respect the law, or close all together as stated by the catholic church. Forcing immorality on a doctor takes away a birth right freedom.

    Adams
    If the Catholic hospitals choose to close, Obama would have to answer to the loss of 4 million+ jobs.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    If the Catholic hospitals choose to close, Obama would have to answer to the loss of 4 million+ jobs.
    Even if they do not close, there has been a major outcry from the doctors that practice at Catholic Hospitals, that they will no longer practice medicine if forced. Think of how big of a shortage there is now, I am sure more than just Catholic hospital doctors have a ProLife agenda.

    Adams
    The Historic PES Legend

  14. Is there such a thing as Union Doctors?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    lol. These pieces of ****. I can almost guarantee with 100% certainty that almost every single one of these Harlem pro-black afrocentric garbage butt holes is on some type of welfare, paid mostly by whites.

    I don't understand these people. Leave the country if you don't like it. It's not hard. Go to Trinidad or Jamaica or somewhere in Africa. Do us all a favor.
    LOL

  16. I am so furious reading 90% of this I don't even know where to start, literally.

    I just pity those on judgement day....really

  17. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I didn't state anything about drunken driving, in fact those cases are usually charged at second degree murder if there isn't a deal struck. Your candor is becoming incessant for a real discussion. Guess what... REAL ACCIDENTS do happen, it's not all malice and ill intent as you seem to allude to in each and every one of your posts. Your take on the law and how it is deemed seems to be misguided on many counts. Intent is a big factor in how a jury judges, that is the great thing about our legal system, you are judged by your peers. If reckless driving was a cause, you can be charged with a degree of murder. So again, your legal sense is somewhat misguided.

    I will refrain from addressing the former as you are not addressing me.

    Adams
    That's what I was saying. Typing on a board does not do anyone any justice. You asked was I classifying an accidental car homicide to first degree murder. I said that why couldn't killing someone, while driving drunk (deliberately), be classified as murder. And, often it is classified as 2nd degree murder as you referenced. I was SPECIFICALLY talking about your statement, word for word. Then I went on to explain what I meant when talking about a car accident being classified as murder, be it 2nd degree, etc.

    I wrote that portion so that you would not respond asking me why I would think that a normal car accident (my tire blew out and I ran someone off the road, etc) should be considered murder, on any level, be it 2nd degree, etc. So, I was trying to avoid coming back and writing exactly what I am writing now to explain that I was not talking about a NORMAL car accident as being murder, however, an intent when getting into a car completely smashed out of your mind could be...etc..sorry if I didn't clarify myself earlier.

    But, on the subject of FOCA, NO, AS I STATED, I do not condone abortions at the point where it is considered live birth abortions or partial. I'm with you there...I NEVER STATED ANYWHERE THAT ABORTIONS SHOULD BE DONE. Once again, read my post; I stated that I DO NOT CONDONE THEM.

    I still contend that abortion doctors are not murders...if we want to talk about intent and malice being a definition or not then where do we draw the line on trigger happy cops?

    edit: Sorry, it is only considered murder if a Caucasian man is shot 47 times, it's only bad judgment if it's any other race....
    ---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---

  18. "edit: Sorry, it is only considered murder if a Caucasian man is shot 47 times, it's only bad judgment if it's any other race...."

    That's a little far too assume that, your post was great all the way up to this.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by D3vildog View Post
    "edit: Sorry, it is only considered murder if a Caucasian man is shot 47 times, it's only bad judgment if it's any other race...."

    That's a little far too assume that, your post was great all the way up to this.
    Well, yes, I do agree that it was a bit over the edge, but when you live in an area and witness those factual occurrences, well ... it is hard not to express yourself, especially in a thread such as this. Not directing it at any person in particular, but like I've said before, if you ain't throwing the party, don't drink the punch.
    ---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---

  20. Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    But, on the subject of FOCA, NO, AS I STATED, I do not condone abortions at the point where it is considered live birth abortions or partial. I'm with you there...I NEVER STATED ANYWHERE THAT ABORTIONS SHOULD BE DONE. Once again, read my post; I stated that I DO NOT CONDONE THEM.

    I still contend that abortion doctors are not murders...if we want to talk about intent and malice being a definition or not then where do we draw the line on trigger happy cops?

    edit: Sorry, it is only considered murder if a Caucasian man is shot 47 times, it's only bad judgment if it's any other race....
    Where do you draw the line at murder for abortion then? At what point in a pregnancy is it considered murder in your eyes? A life is being taken regardless of the way you look at it. Why is it the mothers choice, and the child gets no choice to live? If there are complications I can see that, there are always going to exceptions to the rule. But to freely take a life because, what, you aren't going to be ready for bikini season?

    And who in the world defended trigger happy cops? I do not think anyone here is going to defend a cop that is in the wrong.

    As for your edit... seriously? You are going to invite a reverse racial comment like that into a real conversation? We could go back and forth all day about disgusting acts portrayed by ignorance.... Sotomayor's ruling on the New Haven fire fighters comes to mind.

    Adams
    The Historic PES Legend

  21. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Where do you draw the line at murder for abortion then? At what point in a pregnancy is it considered murder in your eyes? A life is being taken regardless of the way you look at it. Why is it the mothers choice, and the child gets no choice to live? If there are complications I can see that, there are always going to exceptions to the rule. But to freely take a life because, what, you aren't going to be ready for bikini season?
    I think the bikini comment is a tad silly, but so be it. I think calling it murder is a bit harsh, however, after the first trimester it really is up to ones own interpretation. At this point, there is little the anti-abortion crowd can do. The court is set as it is, and to be honest, I expect at least 2 more retirements on the court sooner rather than later, and that will not help your cause.



    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    As for your edit... seriously? You are going to invite a reverse racial comment like that into a real conversation? We could go back and forth all day about disgusting acts portrayed by ignorance.... Sotomayor's ruling on the New Haven fire fighters comes to mind.

    Adams
    I couldnt agree more here. Her appointment is horrible IMO, and that is only one of the cases where she has raised my concern.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I think the bikini comment is a tad silly, but so be it. I think calling it murder is a bit harsh, however, after the first trimester it really is up to ones own interpretation. At this point, there is little the anti-abortion crowd can do. The court is set as it is, and to be honest, I expect at least 2 more retirements on the court sooner rather than later, and that will not help your cause.
    Oh I know my stance is not going to be heard during this administration, at least. But it doesn't abate me from speaking on moral ground to the least. For the first time since polling, Pro-Life out weighs Pro-Choice. Since it was polled in the beginning, it has always been the other way around, people are starting to realize there are too many options out there to relieve a baby of their life. Will my ideal morals ever become the norm? probably not, but doesn't mean I will just lay down and let it be.

    I mean the heart is beating in the first trimester, what make the first trimester the magical number to call him or her life?

    Adams
    The Historic PES Legend

  23. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Oh I know my stance is not going to be heard during this administration, at least. But it doesn't abate me from speaking on moral ground to the least. For the first time since polling, Pro-Life out weighs Pro-Choice. Since it was polled in the beginning, it has always been the other way around, people are starting to realize there are too many options out there to relieve a baby of their life. Will my ideal morals ever become the norm? probably not, but doesn't mean I will just lay down and let it be.

    I mean the heart is beating in the first trimester, what make the first trimester the magical number to call him or her life?

    Adams

    IMO, the first trimester is that "magical" time. Medically it has been shown that there are many greater risks during the 1st trimester than the other 2. In fact, in many instances, a fetus has died for very little known reason.

    After that however, I cannot see any reason (outside of mothers health) for it to occur.

    I was not trying to say you shouldnt voice your opinion, just bear in mind, for the anti-abortion crowd it is going to get far worse when Ginsburg and possibly Kennedy retire soon

    Personally I am pro-choice during the 1st trimester, but could never be a part of an abortion personally.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    IMO, the first trimester is that "magical" time. Medically it has been shown that there are many greater risks during the 1st trimester than the other 2. In fact, in many instances, a fetus has died for very little known reason.

    After that however, I cannot see any reason (outside of mothers health) for it to occur.

    I was not trying to say you shouldnt voice your opinion, just bear in mind, for the anti-abortion crowd it is going to get far worse when Ginsburg and possibly Kennedy retire soon

    Personally I am pro-choice during the 1st trimester, but could never be a part of an abortion personally.
    Understandable, hopefully the change if public opinion sways the political direction even after their retirement. I personally would like to see federalism actually work (10th Amendment), this is not a Federal matter, instead is a state matter. But that is here nor there.

    The spontaneous miscarriage is 90% of the time attributed to genetic issues, and not something man could have helped.

    Just more of a reason to keep supporting Ron Paul, so I can keep my government close to me (State) instead of having arrogant lobbyist making all my decisions for me.
    The Historic PES Legend

  25. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Understandable, hopefully the change if public opinion sways the political direction even after their retirement. I personally would like to see federalism actually work (10th Amendment), this is not a Federal matter, instead is a state matter. But that is here nor there.

    The spontaneous miscarriage is 90% of the time attributed to genetic issues, and not something man could have helped.

    Just more of a reason to keep supporting Ron Paul, so I can keep my government close to me (State) instead of having arrogant lobbyist making all my decisions for me.
    Couldnt agree more, this should be a state issue

  26. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Understandable, hopefully the change if public opinion sways the political direction even after their retirement. I personally would like to see federalism actually work (10th Amendment), this is not a Federal matter, instead is a state matter. But that is here nor there.

    The spontaneous miscarriage is 90% of the time attributed to genetic issues, and not something man could have helped.

    Just more of a reason to keep supporting Ron Paul, so I can keep my government close to me (State) instead of having arrogant lobbyist making all my decisions for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Couldnt agree more, this should be a state issue
    The problem I have with this being divided between the States is that it's not a government issue, it's an issue of morality. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about State-government, but when it comes to abortion, should one state really be allowed to say it's okay while another say it isn't? Can you divide moral issues like that?

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    The problem I have with this being divided between the States is that it's not a government issue, it's an issue of morality. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about State-government, but when it comes to abortion, should one state really be allowed to say it's okay while another say it isn't? Can you divide moral issues like that?
    Unfortunately government takes on moral issues. I am with you on the fact that it is a gross bastardization of morality from a party/class that supposedly preaches peace and good being for all.

    Federal government isn't suppose to impose on state governments, but work for them, that is not the case. It's the nature of the beast.

    Adams
    The Historic PES Legend

  28. Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    I am so furious reading 90% of this I don't even know where to start, literally.

    I just pity those on judgement day....really
    I agree my freind, God will judge those who practice lawlessness. A lot of people with planks in there eye are looking at the specks in others. Sin is sin and no matter which one a individual is doing it is still sin in gods eyes the penalty is all the same. Murders, theives, phornicators, liars, and etc.. the list goes on. And I know every one on here is not a christan or beliver and thats cool that still dosent exclude you from the coming judgement. Not beliving isnt going to stop it from happening. Instead of mauling these individuals that are practicing abortion or the black panther extremist or are goverment, try praying for them because complainning isnt getting any thing done. The power of life and death are in the tongue, I see a lot of death and negativity being spoken by a lot of individuals not all but a lot. I know I wont be popular among all the cool KIDS that dont like this but I realy dont care. Its time truth begins to be spoken and not be twisted and contourted. For People that cant see that prophecy is being fulfilled, I pray you take the blinders off. REPENT and get your self right with GOD befor YOU end up with these abortion doctors and crooked politicans and racist groups. I may have gotten off the subject but, oh this whole thread has jumped from one subject to another. I guess I don changed the game. I cant wait to wake up and read the replies to this. Bring on the Persecution, I was born for this.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by NattyT View Post
    I agree my freind, God will judge those who practice lawlessness. A lot of people with planks in there eye are looking at the specks in others. Sin is sin and no matter which one a individual is doing it is still sin in gods eyes the penalty is all the same. Murders, theives, phornicators, liars, and etc.. the list goes on. And I know every one on here is not a christan or beliver and thats cool that still dosent exclude you from the coming judgement. Not beliving isnt going to stop it from happening. Instead of mauling these individuals that are practicing abortion or the black panther extremist or are goverment, try praying for them because complainning isnt getting any thing done. The power of life and death are in the tongue, I see a lot of death and negativity being spoken by a lot of individuals not all but a lot. I know I wont be popular among all the cool KIDS that dont like this but I realy dont care. Its time truth begins to be spoken and not be twisted and contourted. For People that cant see that prophecy is being fulfilled, I pray you take the blinders off. REPENT and get your self right with GOD befor YOU end up with these abortion doctors and crooked politicans and racist groups. I may have gotten off the subject but, oh this whole thread has jumped from one subject to another. I guess I don changed the game. I cant wait to wake up and read the replies to this. Bring on the Persecution, I was born for this.
    I have to laugh at some of this. Prophecy has been "fufilled" for millenia. Hell, when the OT was written and specifically revelations (which is the prophecy you are referring to), the prophecy was being fufilled by Nero. Hell, all these millenia later, here we are, no judgement day

    At the end of the day, you do realize that your religion that you preach on here consistently, is BORROWED. There is nothing unique about it. The story of jesus (virgin birth, miracles, etc...) were taken from earlier PAGAN sources. Even the damn holidays are borrowed. I wonder if you would be so fervent in your beliefs if you realized that what you worship is based on Egyptian paganism, Roman paganism, and Persian paganism, just to name a few.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post

    At the end of the day, you do realize that your religion that you preach on here consistently, is BORROWED. There is nothing unique about it. The story of jesus (virgin birth, miracles, etc...) were taken from earlier PAGAN sources. Even the damn holidays are borrowed. I wonder if you would be so fervent in your beliefs if you realized that what you worship is based on Egyptian paganism, Roman paganism, and Persian paganism, just to name a few.
    I can't say much of these pagan sources, but if it's true that the stories are similar, why can't it be possible that the creators of these religions saw the prophecy in the OT and decided to create their own counterfeit? - Just throwing the question out there. As I said, I don't know a whole lot about the other religions you speak of, other than the paganism talked about in the Bible, so don't think I'm trying to make a solid argument. ha. Just asking a question.

    And just because something is similar does not mean it's the same. You speak of "virgin births" and I've read a decent bit of other religions that have used this concept, but it's not quite the same thing as the virgin birth of Christ.

    Just because others had the idea to use virgin birth doesn't negate my beliefs. That's all I'm saying.
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