Black Panthers are good guys....

[DAdams91982]

http://data.opi.mt.gov/legbills/2009/Minutes/Senate/Exhibits/jus34a03.pdf

States on unborn victims. I know there are statutes in each state that can possibly cover said atrocities, even in the states that are not clearly defined.

Either way... hang em up by their nuts!

 

[Irish Cannon]

lol. These pieces of ****. I can almost guarantee with 100% certainty that almost every single one of these Harlem pro-black afrocentric garbage butt holes is on some type of welfare, paid mostly by whites.

I don't understand these people. Leave the country if you don't like it. It's not hard. Go to Trinidad or Jamaica or somewhere in Africa. Do us all a favor.

 

[hardknock]

You are acting that since you are a Christian you have no leeway for true poetic justice. I am a Christian and fully support the death penalty. Most do not grab to the scripture word for word, but believe in their own interpretation... one of the many great things we were given as human beings, freedom of thought. I think abortion doctors should be punished by death, especially for the upcoming live birth abortions that is attached to the FOCA (If a baby survives an abortion, then just left on the table to cry and die, no support given, now we aren't quantifying life even after birth). So yes, for the greater good some must die some times.

Do I think that guy was right to shoot him without due process? No. But do I have sympathy for a man who has removed life after life from this world? Nope.

Adams

There is no poetic justice according to the bible.
Murder is murder. We can go back and say that two wrongs do not make a right in the earlier post within this thread, blank panthers, KKK, yet we can give leeway to murder because of this? We cannot have it both ways on both subject matters...either two wrongs do not make a right or it's an eye for an eye.
I can't see the reasoning behind punishing abortion doctors by death. We don't punish any other doctor, by death, who may misdiagnose an individual and give them the incorrect medicines, which they may die from. They may be punished by trial, stripped of licensing, and set to prison for 5 years, but that's it....so why would we treat abortion doctors differently? If we are going to do one thing, we need to be consistent. If we are going to put abortion doctors to death, then we need to put all doctors to death that kill someone by accidental misdiagnoses.

 

[Irish Cannon]

There is no poetic justice according to the bible.
Murder is murder. We can go back and say that two wrongs do not make a right in the earlier post within this thread, blank panthers, KKK, yet we can give leeway to murder because of this? We cannot have it both ways on both subject matters...either two wrongs do not make a right or it's an eye for an eye.
I can't see the reasoning behind punishing abortion doctors by death. We don't punish any other doctor, by death, who may misdiagnose an individual and give them the incorrect medicines, which they may die from. They may be punished by trial, stripped of licensing, and set to prison for 5 years, but that's it....so why would we treat abortion doctors differently? If we are going to do one thing, we need to be consistent. If we are going to put abortion doctors to death, then we need to put all doctors to death that kill someone by accidental misdiagnoses.

Murder is murder, but killing is not murder. There is a definite distinction between those two. The death penalty is NOT murder, it is killing.

And what are you talking about? Misdiagnosis? How do you misdiagnose an abortion? You're comparing apples and refrigerators.

 

[hardknock]

lol. These pieces of ****. I can almost guarantee with 100% certainty that almost every single one of these Harlem pro-black afrocentric garbage butt holes is on some type of welfare, paid mostly by whites.

I don't understand these people. Leave the country if you don't like it. It's not hard. Go to Trinidad or Jamaica or somewhere in Africa. Do us all a favor.

Very wrong here bro' Most, not all, but MOST of those people that are on the videos posted here will not even accept welfare or any other government assisted care. It is described, in their circle, as taking money from the devil.

The last couple of sentences of your statement are somewhat ironic. Isn't there always a thread on AM about how the government is "screwing" us all with bans, and such? So, since we all have a dislike for how this country has been turning during the past 8 years, shouldn't we all leave it?

 

[hardknock]

Murder is murder, but killing is not murder. There is a definite distinction between those two. The death penalty is NOT murder, it is killing.

And what are you talking about? Misdiagnosis? How do you misdiagnose an abortion? You're comparing apples and refrigerators.

Nope. It's the same. No one is talking about misdiagnosing an abortion; I have no idea where you got that from, but there are no abortion doctors going around herding pregnant mothers into a clinic and ripping their fetus's from their stomachs. These people are coming to the abortion doctors for this service. Like i stated, we might as well kill all of the doctors who accidentally, or ignorantly kill, and murder people from poor judgment and misdiagnosis.

You are right, murder is not killing. But when a doctor makes a poor decision on a diagnosis, knowing they should bring in someone more knowledgeable on the subject matter, and knowing full well that they have NO IDEA what they are attempting to treat then it can be, and in my families case, was considered murder with malice intent by judgment.

 

[DAdams91982]

There is no poetic justice according to the bible.
Murder is murder. We can go back and say that two wrongs do not make a right in the earlier post within this thread, blank panthers, KKK, yet we can give leeway to murder because of this? We cannot have it both ways on both subject matters...either two wrongs do not make a right or it's an eye for an eye.
I can't see the reasoning behind punishing abortion doctors by death. We don't punish any other doctor, by death, who may misdiagnose an individual and give them the incorrect medicines, which they may die from. They may be punished by trial, stripped of licensing, and set to prison for 5 years, but that's it....so why would we treat abortion doctors differently? If we are going to do one thing, we need to be consistent. If we are going to put abortion doctors to death, then we need to put all doctors to death that kill someone by accidental misdiagnoses.

Seriously? Your soapbox is going to compare killing babies to racism? Then you are going to go on and compare a doctor of death to a doctor who is saving lives day in and day out?

By exactly what you are saying a 1st degree murder is the same as an accidental homicide by a car accident? Please clarify why.

And I believe I stated my take on my own beliefs. Never did I say I strictly adhere to the bible for all my outlooks on life.

Even I can see killing a baby isn't on even the same playing field as voter intimidation. I said I would give him leeway, didn't say everyone else should or does. There is the greatness of freedom of thought. I can believe killing babies are wrong, I can believe racism, reverse racism, and hate groups are wrong, and the greatest thing of all, I can believe killing someone who kills babies, or molests children is oh so right... I seriously love that crimes against children are almost unanimously punished by death with in the general population of prison. Somehow even murders have some type of morals that somehow others do not.

Adams

 

[DAdams91982]

You are right, murder is not killing. But when a doctor makes a poor decision on a diagnosis, knowing they should bring in someone more knowledgeable on the subject matter, and knowing full well that they have NO IDEA what they are attempting to treat then it can be, and in my families case, was considered murder with malice intent by judgment.

So we are reading all the minds of doctors now? So you can firmly say every death in a hospital that was accidental was somehow intentionally accidental, as you allude to by the statement "knowing they should bring in someone more knowledgeable on the subject matter, and knowing full well that they have NO IDEA what they are attempting to treat"? Please show me in any books that says with 100% certainty that when these symptoms show the problem is 100% this or that. If that was the case, the term Zebra would have never been coined, and the show on discovery health "Mystery Diagnosis" would not be so popular. When you realize healthcare is just as much of an art as it is a science you will realize. A misdiagnosis is not paramount to murder. Trying to save a life with the skills given and failing a time or another does not make someone a murderer. If it is so easy, then why not go through the over a decade of school, and start saving the lives that other doctors are taking intentionally accidentally.

Adams

 

[hardknock]

Seriously? Your soapbox is going to compare killing babies to racism? Then you are going to go on and compare a doctor of death to a doctor who is saving lives day in and day out?

By exactly what you are saying a 1st degree murder is the same as an accidental homicide by a car accident? Please clarify why.

And I believe I stated my take on my own beliefs. Never did I say I strictly adhere to the bible for all my outlooks on life.

Even I can see killing a baby isn't on even the same playing field as voter intimidation. I said I would give him leeway, didn't say everyone else should or does. There is the greatness of freedom of thought. I can believe killing babies are wrong, I can believe racism, reverse racism, and hate groups are wrong, and the greatest thing of all, I can believe killing someone who kills babies, or molests children is oh so right... I seriously love that crimes against children are almost unanimously punished by death with in the general population of prison. Somehow even murders have some type of morals that somehow others do not.

Adams

Once again though, let me start by saying this, the post was NOT intended for you. You just made a convenient comment which I used. I have been in this discussion with a few members lately and they know who they are. They come off as racist. We are not talking black/white, we are talking racism as a whole. Also, the mark about the bible was not intended for you...if those of who I speak wish to chime into this thread then they have free op to do so, but I see that they do not want to do that. Cowardliness, another ingredient of racism....

Adams, you do not have to read a doctors mind after that particular doctor has lost 7 patients and during the trial says "i wasn't sure how to treat the ailment" That's pretty much admitting to malpractice right there. That's like me saying, hey, I have a little experience on how to perform heart surgery, but here goes nothing. That's not malpractice, that's pure malice intent. Now, was it technically murder? Probably not, but that's the book of justice, so be it. (this is not hearsay, this is the actual case) I made that statement because I went through the situation, let's not continue to open that can of worms.

No one is comparing killing babies to racism. I asked how can we give way to one incident then say kill abortion doctors for murder. Abortion doctors are not murdering anyone.

About your statement on car accidents. Why can it not be considered murder? If you partake in a night of partying, drink until drunkenness, and drive home, hit someone, and kill a family, why is it not murder? You're saying that if you are driving drunk, hit and kill someone, that it is accidental? Or are we just talking about making a mistake and barreling through a red traffic light, while sober on a joy ride? No, let's just call it a poor decision and slap them on the wrist, give them a few years and it's all nice after that. No, wait, let's throw it all out of court, say it was a bad decision, like the doctors make bad decisions, and just let them go....better yet, forget the law, let's just go back to the barbaric days when we could just kill whomever we wanted too. Solves the problem of over population, correct?

No...it should be categorized as murder. It is premeditated, imo. If you are completely drunk and drive, kill someone, that should be deemed as premeditated murder. They, if they survive, should get face the same consequences as someone who breaks into a house to rob, and kills the family members.

 

[hardknock]

Remember before reacting that my whole point started because of the editor making a mockery of what some white supremacist members would have done 60 years ago. The whole thing came from those little comments from the editor...my original point was that members of the kkk got off, or were given pardon for doing much worse.

I have no idea how this got into saying that abortion doctors were murders...they are not, case in point.

 

[hardknock]

In that last statement that you made...I can understand that about not having sympathy for a doctor who has removed life from this earth...but, at the same time, nor can i have sympathy for an idiot doctor who misdiagnosis 7 patients and kills them, even AFTER he was stripped of his license.

I am just finding it very hard for you to classify abortion doctors as murderers. There is no intent. They are being instructed by the mother, no? This person has been given permission to perform an act in which the mother KNOWS FULL WELL what the end result is going to be....I walk into a doctors office to be treated for the common cold and next week, I am dead because he gave me the wrong medicine? Wait, let's say he just accidentally wrote the wrong prescription...that makes it better..of course it does!

 

[hardknock]

Let me just end by saying this:

I respect both you and IC's points on most things, and, on many view points, you both have valid arguments, but I cannot, will not, categorize an abortion doctor as a murderer...that is purely ludicrous. I do not condone mothers doing it, yet, it is THEIR decision, purely, not ours.

 

[AE14]

Let me just end by saying this:

I respect both you and IC's points on most things, and, on many view points, you both have valid arguments, but I cannot, will not, categorize an abortion doctor as a murderer...that is purely ludicrous. I do not condone mothers doing it, yet, it is THEIR decision, purely, not ours.

It is most certainly their decision as it is set by the highest court in the land. Case closed at this point.

In terms of abortion doctors as murderers? That is an interesting one for me. IMO, any abortion doctor, who completes the act after the first trimester(outside of the pregancy affecting the health of the mother) is a murderer. There is no reason, outside of what I posted previously to carry on the procedure after the first 3 months.

 

[DAdams91982]

About your statement on car accidents. Why can it not be considered murder? If you partake in a night of partying, drink until drunkenness, and drive home, hit someone, and kill a family, why is it not murder? You're saying that if you are driving drunk, hit and kill someone, that it is accidental? Or are we just talking about making a mistake and barreling through a red traffic light, while sober on a joy ride? No, let's just call it a poor decision and slap them on the wrist, give them a few years and it's all nice after that. No, wait, let's throw it all out of court, say it was a bad decision, like the doctors make bad decisions, and just let them go....better yet, forget the law, let's just go back to the barbaric days when we could just kill whomever we wanted too. Solves the problem of over population, correct?

No...it should be categorized as murder. It is premeditated, imo. If you are completely drunk and drive, kill someone, that should be deemed as premeditated murder. They, if they survive, should get face the same consequences as someone who breaks into a house to rob, and kills the family members.

I didn't state anything about drunken driving, in fact those cases are usually charged at second degree murder if there isn't a deal struck. Your candor is becoming incessant for a real discussion. Guess what... REAL ACCIDENTS do happen, it's not all malice and ill intent as you seem to allude to in each and every one of your posts. Your take on the law and how it is deemed seems to be misguided on many counts. Intent is a big factor in how a jury judges, that is the great thing about our legal system, you are judged by your peers. If reckless driving was a cause, you can be charged with a degree of murder. So again, your legal sense is somewhat misguided.

I will refrain from addressing the former as you are not addressing me.

Adams

 

[Irish Cannon]

It is most certainly their decision as it is set by the highest court in the land. Case closed at this point.

In terms of abortion doctors as murderers? That is an interesting one for me. IMO, any abortion doctor, who completes the act after the first trimester(outside of the pregancy affecting the health of the mother) is a murderer. There is no reason, outside of what I posted previously to carry on the procedure after the first 3 months.

Here's some interesting statistics...

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

What bothers me also is the "health problems regarding either the mother or child" - this includes mentally challenged children, and the term "health" is stretched (ha) so far when speaking of the mother that it can mean something as little as the fear of stretch marks.

I want to know exactly what percentage of abortions occur because the doctor says, "If you have this baby, there's a good chance you will die from complications." - And in this case, what about a C-section?

 

[DAdams91982]

Let me just end by saying this:

I respect both you and IC's points on most things, and, on many view points, you both have valid arguments, but I cannot, will not, categorize an abortion doctor as a murderer...that is purely ludicrous. I do not condone mothers doing it, yet, it is THEIR decision, purely, not ours.

Please classify murder for me then. Because is taking a life intentionally not murder? How about prebirth abortion? Laboring till the baby crowns then spiking a hole in their head to vacuum out the brain? Not murder yet? How about the addition to the FOCA, late term abortion... where if a baby survives abortion and birthed, then left on the hospital bed till either starves or suffocates to death since no assistance is given? Murder yet?

Why is a baby only deemed a life if the mother deems him/her life? No matter what faith if any you are, since when do we get to play God with a babies life?

Adams

 

[DAdams91982]

What bothers me also is the "health problems regarding either the mother or child" - this includes mentally challenged children, and the term "health" is stretched (ha) so far when speaking of the mother that it can mean something as little as the fear of stretch marks.

This part does bother me as well.. i have a mentally challenged brother. Guess what, he walks, talks, and has his own personality. He is loved by all, and only requires more care than the average person. Why is he now deemed a problem?

Adams

 

[Irish Cannon]

Please classify murder for me then. Because is taking a life intentionally not murder? How about prebirth abortion? Laboring till the baby crowns then spiking a hole in their head to vacuum out the brain? Not murder yet? How about the addition to the FOCA, late term abortion... where if a baby survives abortion and birthed, then left on the hospital bed till either starves or suffocates to death since no assistance is given? Murder yet?

Why is a baby only deemed a life if the mother deems him/her life? No matter what faith if any you are, since when do we get to play God with a babies life?

Adams

This one kills me. I tear up anytime I hear it talked about. It disgusts me to no end, and our president voted yes on the bill three times.

 

[DAdams91982]

This one kills me. I tear up anytime I hear it talked about. It disgusts me to no end, and our president voted yes on the bill three times.

I agree, how can anyone not think humanity is going down the toilet when this is even an option in any sense?

 

[AE14]

Just to make FOCA a little more clear:

"declares that it is the policy of the United States that every woman has the fundamental right to choose to bear a child; terminate a pregnancy prior to fetal viability; or terminate a pregnancy after viability when necessary to protect her life or her health.

Fetal viability is defined as prior to 5 months gestational age.

What has been described previously is downright awful, however FOCA as it is written is not the issue

 

[DAdams91982]

Just to make FOCA a little more clear:



Fetal viability is defined as prior to 5 months gestational age.

What has been described previously is downright awful, however FOCA as it is written is not the issue

You are pulling from the 2004 version of the FOCA... FOCA now includes partial birth abortion (which is full term abortion), and the new revision is to include live birth abortion. The only time we will get to see the revision is very close prior to vote, just like the stimulus bill, just long enough so the fine print cannot be read. You can find plenty of advocates stating the contents of FOCA, to include partial and live birth abortions.

If they pass FOCA, you can expect 15% of hospitals to either not respect the law, or close all together as stated by the catholic church. Forcing immorality on a doctor takes away a birth right freedom.

Adams

 

[Irish Cannon]

You are pulling from the 2004 version of the FOCA... FOCA now includes partial birth abortion (which is full term abortion), and the new revision is to include live birth abortion. The only time we will get to see the revision is very close prior to vote, just like the stimulus bill, just long enough so the fine print cannot be read. You can find plenty of advocates stating the contents of FOCA, to include partial and live birth abortions.

If they pass FOCA, you can expect 15% of hospitals to either not respect the law, or close all together as stated by the catholic church. Forcing immorality on a doctor takes away a birth right freedom.

Adams

If the Catholic hospitals choose to close, Obama would have to answer to the loss of 4 million+ jobs.

 

[DAdams91982]

If the Catholic hospitals choose to close, Obama would have to answer to the loss of 4 million+ jobs.

Even if they do not close, there has been a major outcry from the doctors that practice at Catholic Hospitals, that they will no longer practice medicine if forced. Think of how big of a shortage there is now, I am sure more than just Catholic hospital doctors have a ProLife agenda.

Adams

 

[Irish Cannon]

Is there such a thing as Union Doctors?

 

[Rick28]

lol. These pieces of ****. I can almost guarantee with 100% certainty that almost every single one of these Harlem pro-black afrocentric garbage butt holes is on some type of welfare, paid mostly by whites.

I don't understand these people. Leave the country if you don't like it. It's not hard. Go to Trinidad or Jamaica or somewhere in Africa. Do us all a favor.

LOL:toofunny:

 

[bLacKjAck.]

I am so furious reading 90% of this I don't even know where to start, literally.

I just pity those on judgement day....really

 

[hardknock]

I didn't state anything about drunken driving, in fact those cases are usually charged at second degree murder if there isn't a deal struck. Your candor is becoming incessant for a real discussion. Guess what... REAL ACCIDENTS do happen, it's not all malice and ill intent as you seem to allude to in each and every one of your posts. Your take on the law and how it is deemed seems to be misguided on many counts. Intent is a big factor in how a jury judges, that is the great thing about our legal system, you are judged by your peers. If reckless driving was a cause, you can be charged with a degree of murder. So again, your legal sense is somewhat misguided.

I will refrain from addressing the former as you are not addressing me.

Adams

That's what I was saying. Typing on a board does not do anyone any justice. You asked was I classifying an accidental car homicide to first degree murder. I said that why couldn't killing someone, while driving drunk (deliberately), be classified as murder. And, often it is classified as 2nd degree murder as you referenced. I was SPECIFICALLY talking about your statement, word for word. Then I went on to explain what I meant when talking about a car accident being classified as murder, be it 2nd degree, etc.

I wrote that portion so that you would not respond asking me why I would think that a normal car accident (my tire blew out and I ran someone off the road, etc) should be considered murder, on any level, be it 2nd degree, etc. So, I was trying to avoid coming back and writing exactly what I am writing now to explain that I was not talking about a NORMAL car accident as being murder, however, an intent when getting into a car completely smashed out of your mind could be...etc..sorry if I didn't clarify myself earlier.

But, on the subject of FOCA, NO, AS I STATED, I do not condone abortions at the point where it is considered live birth abortions or partial. I'm with you there...I NEVER STATED ANYWHERE THAT ABORTIONS SHOULD BE DONE. Once again, read my post; I stated that I DO NOT CONDONE THEM.

I still contend that abortion doctors are not murders...if we want to talk about intent and malice being a definition or not then where do we draw the line on trigger happy cops?

edit: Sorry, it is only considered murder if a Caucasian man is shot 47 times, it's only bad judgment if it's any other race....

 

[D3vildog]

"edit: Sorry, it is only considered murder if a Caucasian man is shot 47 times, it's only bad judgment if it's any other race...."

That's a little far too assume that, your post was great all the way up to this.

 

[hardknock]

"edit: Sorry, it is only considered murder if a Caucasian man is shot 47 times, it's only bad judgment if it's any other race...."

That's a little far too assume that, your post was great all the way up to this.

Well, yes, I do agree that it was a bit over the edge, but when you live in an area and witness those factual occurrences, well ... it is hard not to express yourself, especially in a thread such as this. Not directing it at any person in particular, but like I've said before, if you ain't throwing the party, don't drink the punch.

 

[DAdams91982]

But, on the subject of FOCA, NO, AS I STATED, I do not condone abortions at the point where it is considered live birth abortions or partial. I'm with you there...I NEVER STATED ANYWHERE THAT ABORTIONS SHOULD BE DONE. Once again, read my post; I stated that I DO NOT CONDONE THEM.

I still contend that abortion doctors are not murders...if we want to talk about intent and malice being a definition or not then where do we draw the line on trigger happy cops?

edit: Sorry, it is only considered murder if a Caucasian man is shot 47 times, it's only bad judgment if it's any other race....

Where do you draw the line at murder for abortion then? At what point in a pregnancy is it considered murder in your eyes? A life is being taken regardless of the way you look at it. Why is it the mothers choice, and the child gets no choice to live? If there are complications I can see that, there are always going to exceptions to the rule. But to freely take a life because, what, you aren't going to be ready for bikini season?

And who in the world defended trigger happy cops? I do not think anyone here is going to defend a cop that is in the wrong.

As for your edit... seriously? You are going to invite a reverse racial comment like that into a real conversation? We could go back and forth all day about disgusting acts portrayed by ignorance.... Sotomayor's ruling on the New Haven fire fighters comes to mind.

Adams

 

[AE14]

Where do you draw the line at murder for abortion then? At what point in a pregnancy is it considered murder in your eyes? A life is being taken regardless of the way you look at it. Why is it the mothers choice, and the child gets no choice to live? If there are complications I can see that, there are always going to exceptions to the rule. But to freely take a life because, what, you aren't going to be ready for bikini season?

I think the bikini comment is a tad silly, but so be it. I think calling it murder is a bit harsh, however, after the first trimester it really is up to ones own interpretation. At this point, there is little the anti-abortion crowd can do. The court is set as it is, and to be honest, I expect at least 2 more retirements on the court sooner rather than later, and that will not help your cause.

As for your edit... seriously? You are going to invite a reverse racial comment like that into a real conversation? We could go back and forth all day about disgusting acts portrayed by ignorance.... Sotomayor's ruling on the New Haven fire fighters comes to mind.

Adams

I couldnt agree more here. Her appointment is horrible IMO, and that is only one of the cases where she has raised my concern.

 

[DAdams91982]

I think the bikini comment is a tad silly, but so be it. I think calling it murder is a bit harsh, however, after the first trimester it really is up to ones own interpretation. At this point, there is little the anti-abortion crowd can do. The court is set as it is, and to be honest, I expect at least 2 more retirements on the court sooner rather than later, and that will not help your cause.

Oh I know my stance is not going to be heard during this administration, at least. But it doesn't abate me from speaking on moral ground to the least. For the first time since polling, Pro-Life out weighs Pro-Choice. Since it was polled in the beginning, it has always been the other way around, people are starting to realize there are too many options out there to relieve a baby of their life. Will my ideal morals ever become the norm? probably not, but doesn't mean I will just lay down and let it be.

I mean the heart is beating in the first trimester, what make the first trimester the magical number to call him or her life?

Adams

 

[AE14]

Oh I know my stance is not going to be heard during this administration, at least. But it doesn't abate me from speaking on moral ground to the least. For the first time since polling, Pro-Life out weighs Pro-Choice. Since it was polled in the beginning, it has always been the other way around, people are starting to realize there are too many options out there to relieve a baby of their life. Will my ideal morals ever become the norm? probably not, but doesn't mean I will just lay down and let it be.

I mean the heart is beating in the first trimester, what make the first trimester the magical number to call him or her life?

Adams

IMO, the first trimester is that "magical" time. Medically it has been shown that there are many greater risks during the 1st trimester than the other 2. In fact, in many instances, a fetus has died for very little known reason.

After that however, I cannot see any reason (outside of mothers health) for it to occur.

I was not trying to say you shouldnt voice your opinion, just bear in mind, for the anti-abortion crowd it is going to get far worse when Ginsburg and possibly Kennedy retire soon

Personally I am pro-choice during the 1st trimester, but could never be a part of an abortion personally.

 

[DAdams91982]

IMO, the first trimester is that "magical" time. Medically it has been shown that there are many greater risks during the 1st trimester than the other 2. In fact, in many instances, a fetus has died for very little known reason.

After that however, I cannot see any reason (outside of mothers health) for it to occur.

I was not trying to say you shouldnt voice your opinion, just bear in mind, for the anti-abortion crowd it is going to get far worse when Ginsburg and possibly Kennedy retire soon

Personally I am pro-choice during the 1st trimester, but could never be a part of an abortion personally.

Understandable, hopefully the change if public opinion sways the political direction even after their retirement. I personally would like to see federalism actually work (10th Amendment), this is not a Federal matter, instead is a state matter. But that is here nor there.

The spontaneous miscarriage is 90% of the time attributed to genetic issues, and not something man could have helped.

Just more of a reason to keep supporting Ron Paul, so I can keep my government close to me (State) instead of having arrogant lobbyist making all my decisions for me.

 

[AE14]

Understandable, hopefully the change if public opinion sways the political direction even after their retirement. I personally would like to see federalism actually work (10th Amendment), this is not a Federal matter, instead is a state matter. But that is here nor there.

The spontaneous miscarriage is 90% of the time attributed to genetic issues, and not something man could have helped.

Just more of a reason to keep supporting Ron Paul, so I can keep my government close to me (State) instead of having arrogant lobbyist making all my decisions for me.

Couldnt agree more, this should be a state issue

 

[Irish Cannon]

Understandable, hopefully the change if public opinion sways the political direction even after their retirement. I personally would like to see federalism actually work (10th Amendment), this is not a Federal matter, instead is a state matter. But that is here nor there.

The spontaneous miscarriage is 90% of the time attributed to genetic issues, and not something man could have helped.

Just more of a reason to keep supporting Ron Paul, so I can keep my government close to me (State) instead of having arrogant lobbyist making all my decisions for me.

Couldnt agree more, this should be a state issue

The problem I have with this being divided between the States is that it's not a government issue, it's an issue of morality. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about State-government, but when it comes to abortion, should one state really be allowed to say it's okay while another say it isn't? Can you divide moral issues like that?

 

[DAdams91982]

The problem I have with this being divided between the States is that it's not a government issue, it's an issue of morality. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about State-government, but when it comes to abortion, should one state really be allowed to say it's okay while another say it isn't? Can you divide moral issues like that?

Unfortunately government takes on moral issues. I am with you on the fact that it is a gross bastardization of morality from a party/class that supposedly preaches peace and good being for all.

Federal government isn't suppose to impose on state governments, but work for them, that is not the case. It's the nature of the beast.

Adams

 

[NattyT]

I am so furious reading 90% of this I don't even know where to start, literally.

I just pity those on judgement day....really

I agree my freind, God will judge those who practice lawlessness. A lot of people with planks in there eye are looking at the specks in others. Sin is sin and no matter which one a individual is doing it is still sin in gods eyes the penalty is all the same. Murders, theives, phornicators, liars, and etc.. the list goes on. And I know every one on here is not a christan or beliver and thats cool that still dosent exclude you from the coming judgement. Not beliving isnt going to stop it from happening. Instead of mauling these individuals that are practicing abortion or the black panther extremist or are goverment, try praying for them because complainning isnt getting any thing done. The power of life and death are in the tongue, I see a lot of death and negativity being spoken by a lot of individuals not all but a lot. I know I wont be popular among all the cool KIDS that dont like this but I realy dont care. Its time truth begins to be spoken and not be twisted and contourted. For People that cant see that prophecy is being fulfilled, I pray you take the blinders off. REPENT and get your self right with GOD befor YOU end up with these abortion doctors and crooked politicans and racist groups. I may have gotten off the subject but, oh this whole thread has jumped from one subject to another. I guess I don changed the game.:dunno: I cant wait to wake up and read the replies to this. Bring on the Persecution, I was born for this.

 

[AE14]

I agree my freind, God will judge those who practice lawlessness. A lot of people with planks in there eye are looking at the specks in others. Sin is sin and no matter which one a individual is doing it is still sin in gods eyes the penalty is all the same. Murders, theives, phornicators, liars, and etc.. the list goes on. And I know every one on here is not a christan or beliver and thats cool that still dosent exclude you from the coming judgement. Not beliving isnt going to stop it from happening. Instead of mauling these individuals that are practicing abortion or the black panther extremist or are goverment, try praying for them because complainning isnt getting any thing done. The power of life and death are in the tongue, I see a lot of death and negativity being spoken by a lot of individuals not all but a lot. I know I wont be popular among all the cool KIDS that dont like this but I realy dont care. Its time truth begins to be spoken and not be twisted and contourted. For People that cant see that prophecy is being fulfilled, I pray you take the blinders off. REPENT and get your self right with GOD befor YOU end up with these abortion doctors and crooked politicans and racist groups. I may have gotten off the subject but, oh this whole thread has jumped from one subject to another. I guess I don changed the game.:dunno: I cant wait to wake up and read the replies to this. Bring on the Persecution, I was born for this.

I have to laugh at some of this. Prophecy has been "fufilled" for millenia. Hell, when the OT was written and specifically revelations (which is the prophecy you are referring to), the prophecy was being fufilled by Nero. Hell, all these millenia later, here we are, no judgement day

At the end of the day, you do realize that your religion that you preach on here consistently, is BORROWED. There is nothing unique about it. The story of jesus (virgin birth, miracles, etc...) were taken from earlier PAGAN sources. Even the damn holidays are borrowed. I wonder if you would be so fervent in your beliefs if you realized that what you worship is based on Egyptian paganism, Roman paganism, and Persian paganism, just to name a few.

 

[Irish Cannon]

At the end of the day, you do realize that your religion that you preach on here consistently, is BORROWED. There is nothing unique about it. The story of jesus (virgin birth, miracles, etc...) were taken from earlier PAGAN sources. Even the damn holidays are borrowed. I wonder if you would be so fervent in your beliefs if you realized that what you worship is based on Egyptian paganism, Roman paganism, and Persian paganism, just to name a few.

I can't say much of these pagan sources, but if it's true that the stories are similar, why can't it be possible that the creators of these religions saw the prophecy in the OT and decided to create their own counterfeit? - Just throwing the question out there. As I said, I don't know a whole lot about the other religions you speak of, other than the paganism talked about in the Bible, so don't think I'm trying to make a solid argument. ha. Just asking a question.

And just because something is similar does not mean it's the same. You speak of "virgin births" and I've read a decent bit of other religions that have used this concept, but it's not quite the same thing as the virgin birth of Christ.

Just because others had the idea to use virgin birth doesn't negate my beliefs. That's all I'm saying.

 

[AE14]

I can't say much of these pagan sources, but if it's true that the stories are similar, why can't it be possible that the creators of these religions saw the prophecy in the OT and decided to create their own counterfeit? - Just throwing the question out there. As I said, I don't know a whole lot about the other religions you speak of, other than the paganism talked about in the Bible, so don't think I'm trying to make a solid argument. ha. Just asking a question.

And just because something is similar does not mean it's the same. You speak of "virgin births" and I've read a decent bit of other religions that have used this concept, but it's not quite the same thing as the virgin birth of Christ.

Just because others had the idea to use virgin birth doesn't negate my beliefs. That's all I'm saying.

I understand where you are coming from, however they predate the OT, many by millenia.

The virgin birth of Horus is identical to that of Jesus, as is the representation of who they were as savior and "diety"

 

[Irish Cannon]

I understand where you are coming from, however they predate the OT, many by millenia.

The virgin birth of Horus is identical to that of Jesus, as is the representation of who they were as savior and "diety"

It may predate the text itself. I know the Bible hasn't been around for that long (relatively speaking) and was originally a set of scrolls that were compiled to make the entire book. - I guess what I'm saying is that I believe in the Godhead, and if Christ was around at creation, therefore he already was the first, whether in writing or not.

So are you saying that the story of Horus was around before the OT TEXT, or before the OT scripture and stories were ever spoken of? Do you see what I'm trying to understand?

I mean, Job is the oldest book of the Bible, predating the flood and all of that stuff. The book openly talks about dinosaurs and all that jazz...I know I'm rambling here...

What I mean is if Adam and Eve were in fact the first humans, how can the story of the Egyptians predate them?

Sorry if I'm not speaking coherently. Thoughts keep popping in my head, and I'm trying to grill about 9 chicken breasts right now, too.

 

[bpmartyr]

One man proved his divine appointment and by doing the one thing nobody ever has or will do. He rose from the dead and walked out of his grave. You can argue this fact all you want but I am convinced and I know the eye witnesses to the event were as well in that they willingly suffered persecution and horrible deaths for it.

A man may die for something he believes to be true but certainly not for something he knows to be false especially as there was no benefit to spreading a lie like that. "I will give up my normal life and possessions, leave my family to travel to distant lands all to suffer and die even though what I preach is an absolute fabrication and will not save anyone."

His message was clear, "I did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it. Whoever believes in me is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in me is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son."

Believe it, or not.

 

[AE14]

It may predate the text itself. I know the Bible hasn't been around for that long (relatively speaking) and was originally a set of scrolls that were compiled to make the entire book. - I guess what I'm saying is that I believe in the Godhead, and if Christ was around at creation, therefore he already was the first, whether in writing or not.

So are you saying that the story of Horus was around before the OT TEXT, or before the OT scripture and stories were ever spoken of? Do you see what I'm trying to understand?

I mean, Job is the oldest book of the Bible, predating the flood and all of that stuff. The book openly talks about dinosaurs and all that jazz...I know I'm rambling here...

What I mean is if Adam and Eve were in fact the first humans, how can the story of the Egyptians predate them?

Sorry if I'm not speaking coherently. Thoughts keep popping in my head, and I'm trying to grill about 9 chicken breasts right now, too.

first, you just made me hungry.

The OT as a collection of stories talks about events in the past, but were not written at the time of the events. The Egyptian creation (Zep Tepi) is roughly dadted to prior to the flood (roughly 10,500 BCE), so Isis, Osiris, Set, Nepthys and Horus were supposedly around at that time. At least that is what the Egyptians believed. With that said, the correlation between the stories of Isis/Horus and Mary/Jesus are uncanny

 

[AE14]

One man proved his divine appointment and by doing the one thing nobody ever has or will do. He rose from the dead and walked out of his grave. You can argue this fact all you want but I am convinced and I know the eye witnesses to the event were as well in that they willingly suffered persecution and horrible deaths for it.

A man may die for something he believes to be true but certainly not for something he knows to be false especially as there was no benefit to spreading a lie like that. "I will give up my normal life and possessions, leave my family to travel to distant lands all to suffer and die even though what I preach is an absolute fabrication and will not save anyone."

His message was clear, "I did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it. Whoever believes in me is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in me in condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son."

Believe it, or not.

I am not trying ot argue with you at all, however this is the same story as Horus

 

[bpmartyr]

I am not trying ot argue with you at all, however this is the same story as Horus

Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have 'risen' in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern most certainly it was never considered as an annual event.

Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.… This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ.

 

[AE14]

Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have 'risen' in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern most certainly it was never considered as an annual event.

Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.… This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ.

I actually said Horus, not Osiris. However, Horus did "raise" Osiris from the dead.

 

[bpmartyr]

I actually said Horus, not Osiris. However, Horus did "raise" Osiris from the dead.

K.

I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes "merged" with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere...

Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld.

Indeed, the description of the conception of Horus will show exactly the sexual elements that characterize pagan 'miracle births', as noted by the scholars earlier:

"But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..."

 

[Irish Cannon]

Well she was just a little whore.

 

[bpmartyr]

I shouldn't have got into this as it is waaay off topic and I really don't have the time or interest in debating this as it appears somewhat valid on the surface but falls apart once seriously considered.

I am out.