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Been arguing that part for awhile now. I am the same way. When it is okay for fags to be open in the military, I am on the way out. Since they wouldn't accommodate separate showers and what not... see ya. Last thing I want to think in a hot zone is some Nancy checkin out my corn hole while scrubin my sack in the hooch.i know one thing the minute that homosexual **** in the military becomes a reality im getting out asap
its bad enough we spend hours upon hours each yr dealing with females and MEO and what to say and not to say i cannot imagine the millions of hours that will take place when they allow fags to openly walk around and prance in the service
the amount of man hours and money will be insane
I don't think a lot of people understand that this is the true dilemma.i know one thing the minute that homosexual **** in the military becomes a reality im getting out asap
its bad enough we spend hours upon hours each yr dealing with females and MEO and what to say and not to say i cannot imagine the millions of hours that will take place when they allow fags to openly walk around and prance in the service
the amount of man hours and money will be insane
This was addressed in the PDF. It simply seems like a tactic to not alienate votes. Maybe he DOES feel that way, but not enough to work to change it.some of this is so foolish. Obama has already stated he was against same sex marriage, which is foolish IMO anyway the author os this seems to have issue with homosexuality
I dont necessarily disagree to an extent, but it goes much further than the idea that Johnny has 2 moms or dads. Even families with a mom and a dad are declining in values. Hell, across the boards parents are less interested, less involved and the kids are alone. Personally, if the kid can have 2 loving parents that want to be involved and be supportive, I could give 2 sh!ts what gender they are.This was addressed in the PDF. It simply seems like a tactic to not alienate votes. Maybe he DOES feel that way, but not enough to work to change it.
I really believe that so many problems from this country stem from the declining familiy model, and there is just no way that I can any longer be apathetic on this issue. I sat down and debated this with myself for a while a few weeks ago.
I agree that as a whole, families are declining in values; however, I can't push aside the fact that a father and a mother ofter two VERY different aspects as parents to the family and the child, and I believe that for the family to be completely balanced, it is necessary to have both a loving father and mother.I dont necessarily disagree to an extent, but it goes much further than the idea that Johnny has 2 moms or dads. Even families with a mom and a dad are declining in values. Hell, across the boards parents are less interested, less involved and the kids are alone. Personally, if the kid can have 2 loving parents that want to be involved and be supportive, I could give 2 sh!ts what gender they are.
I see what you're saying, but it would be hard for me to accept the fact that if I was in the military I would have to be showering with known homosexuals. I see it as no different than co-ed showers. I'm attracted to females, and of course they would feel uncomfortable with some random dude in the shower with them. It makes things very unstable.Also, for those here that think homosexuals (considering the word used by people here is quite wrong or could just mean cigarette) are looking for them, I think it might be time to get over yourself a bit and leave your ego at the door
Okay.. then why arent the showers Co-Ed? I mean I am not going to look at every women sexually. So that should be no issue.Also, for those here that think homosexuals (considering the word used by people here is quite wrong or could just mean cigarette) are looking for them, I think it might be time to get over yourself a bit and leave your ego at the door
Beat ya to it this time!Okay.. then why arent the showers Co-Ed? I mean I am not going to look at every women sexually. So that should be no issue.
Adams
I agree and disagree. There have been many successful families that were not typical. I think we both know this.I agree that as a whole, families are declining in values; however, I can't push aside the fact that a father and a mother ofter two VERY different aspects as parents to the family and the child, and I believe that for the family to be completely balanced, it is necessary to have both a loving father and mother.
So if you were showering with Barbara Walters you would be overcome with emotion? :rofl:I see what you're saying, but it would be hard for me to accept the fact that if I was in the military I would have to be showering with known homosexuals. I see it as no different than co-ed showers. I'm attracted to females, and of course they would feel uncomfortable with some random dude in the shower with them. It makes things very unstable.
Well I think the obvious answer is gender difference. Gay men are still me, as are gay women. So the showering should still not be an issueOkay.. then why arent the showers Co-Ed? I mean I am not going to look at every women sexually. So that should be no issue.
Adams
there is a big difference. I dont know if you have served, but being that close of quarters changes the dynamic of things. The rule now in the military protects all. I am not made uncomfortable, and they can live their gay life, just not let the military know about it. Weather you like it or not, a platoon of soldiers would loose respect for their commander if he came out saying he liked the meat whistle. Just how things are.Well I think the obvious answer is gender difference. Gay men are still me, as are gay women. So the showering should still not be an issue
YES.. and sometimes all to often.. even THAT makes me uncomfortable at times. Like I am going to be mauled!SO IC your ego makes you assume you are wanted? Let me ask you, when you walk down the street do you assume that every woman wants you?
I really don't know why you would think this.SO IC your ego makes you assume you are wanted? Let me ask you, when you walk down the street do you assume that every woman wants you?
Again, totally besides the point.In college during my freshman year I stayed on a coed floor. Only a girls bathroom on the floor. Now, when it was late and I needed to go real bad, hell if I was going to go running to the floor above. Also, many times different people(male and female) showered in there. We were all as respectful as possible.
Wow to be youYES.. and sometimes all to often.. even THAT makes me uncomfortable at times. Like I am going to be mauled!
Adams
My point here IC is, that as much as you would be uncomfortable, so might a gay guy be uncomfortable with showing near you. He might believe your interest is in him. (no pun intended)I really don't know why you would think this.
I hear so much talk about ego these days as though high self-esteem is a bad thing.
I definitely don't think every chick is automatically attracted to me, but rarely do I feel a woman is out of my league. But again, this is COMPLETELY besides the point...
Again, totally besides the point.
I feel uncomfortable showering with a gay guy. It's that simple. The fact that I do or don't think he finds me attractive has nothing to do with it, nor does it even cross my mind.
I don't want to shower with random women, hot or not, attracted to me or not.
I don't want to shower with random gay men, attracted to me or not.
It's that simple.
You've got to be ****ing kidding me.i know one thing the minute that homosexual **** in the military becomes a reality im getting out asap
its bad enough we spend hours upon hours each yr dealing with females and MEO and what to say and not to say i cannot imagine the millions of hours that will take place when they allow fags to openly walk around and prance in the service
the amount of man hours and money will be insane
That's very possible. But again, it proves my point. It's unstable; in this case, for both of us. It just causes problems, and that's all I'm trying to get at. That's why the military has the policy it does, to avoid these conflicts.My point here IC is, that as much as you would be uncomfortable, so might a gay guy be uncomfortable with showing near you. He might believe your interest is in him. (no pun intended)
No, he's not. They already build extra facilities for women and spend time telling you how you must behave around them. What's going to happen when people are allowed to be openly gay in the service?You've got to be ****ing kidding me.
I was talking about the statement itself, not whether it was valid or not. I have never served, and you, DA, and OB may be right, but does that mean he has to express himself like some ignorant backwater retard?No, he's not. They already build extra facilities for women and spend time telling you how you must behave around them. What's going to happen when people are allowed to be openly gay in the service?
And what irritates the hell out of me is that often times U.S., Soldiers assume being in the Military gives them a free-pass to say whatever about whomever they want; I don't need to serve to spot a ridiculous statement like that.This is why this really irritates the hell out of me.
Unfortunately military policy is written by civilians, most of whom never have served, and dont know what it feels like having to be in such close quarters in hostile situations.
If this was up to the service members themselves, it would not be an issue. My rationale is the norm in the US Military, and make them feel comfortable, especially in a time of war is paramount. Rather than appeasing the public eye, which is done far to often.
A kinder gentler military is what we have become.
Adams
No, but it doesn't mean he has to be PC either. I know why I am ignorant, and an ass about it... it is because this kind of sh*t is being shoved down our throats day in and day out. So a certain level of hostility is expected.I was talking about the statement itself, not whether it was valid or not. I have never served, and you, DA, and OB may be right, but does that mean he has to express himself like some ignorant backwater retard?
Maybe I missed it, but does being in the Military qualify you to set the clock back 50 years and break out the white caps and robes? Jesus, he just had to include jews and blacks and we could have crowned him the grandmaster.
Have you considered that these facilities are built BECAUSE of attitudes and ridiculous statements like that?
HA... its not the military that gives me a free pass... it is the first amendment. Love it or hate it. I'd say what I want regardless of the uniform my friend.And what irritates the hell out of me is that often times U.S., Soldiers assume being in the Military gives them a free-pass to say whatever about whomever they want; I don't need to serve to spot a ridiculous statement like that.
That is like saying I must be a Doctor to spot that I have a cold.
In fact I am not even an ultra conservative. But I do have beliefs, which is what a lot of people seem to lack these days. Instead, go with what the majority is doing.Wow, strong closet homosexuality in this thread. You guys spend way too much time thinking about other men and their desires. When I served in the military, I worked with guys I knew were gay... and I never really gave it much thought.
Btw... I stopped reading that ultra-conservative nonsense when it mentioned that the Boy Scouts disbanded to keep homosexuals from sleeping in tents with little boys. I guess I shouldn't be allowed to teach in a 5th grade classroom then, 'cause I have 14 female students... and there is nothing to keep me from molesting them all. Oh wait... my sexuality has nothing to do with pedophilia. :think:
Reading this thread reminds me of why I would never move back to a red state. I cherish my intelligence.
You probably would, but that is irrelevant, and not the issue. You said:HA... its not the military that gives me a free pass... it is the first amendment. Love it or hate it. I'd say what I want regardless of the uniform my friend.
Adams
Which is essentially telling me I am unqualified to tell you whether you are an ignorant bigot or not (not you, but Military in general).Unfortunately military policy is written by civilians, most of whom never have served, and dont know what it feels like having to be in such close quarters in hostile situations.
I think my meaning was not conveyed correctly. I am not saying you can't say your piece about me or anyone else for that matter. I was more aiming at the debate at hand, that gays should be allowed to openly serve. In my mind, we the service members should make that decision, not the old crusties up in congress that know nothing about what happens on ground zero.You probably would, but that is irrelevant, and not the issue. You said:
Which is essentially telling me I am unqualified to tell you whether you are an ignorant bigot or not (not you, but Military in general).
So... one's environment has no bearing on his intelligence? Wow. Okay, so Piaget, Erikson, and Vygotsky all just rolled over in their graves.And if you haven't figure it out, where you live has no bearing on the level of intelligence you possess.
Good day to you as well my friend.So... one's environment has no bearing on his intelligence?
Okay, so Piaget, Erikson, and Vygotsky all just rolled over in their graves.
With that, I bid you good day.
The red-tape of 'PC bureaucracy can become infuriating'; trust me, I know this as much or more than you: I live in an 'officially' BiLingual country with a sub-population afforded Constitutional 'distinctness' despite the fact they wish to separate at every turn. That being said, I still do not call the Quebec-French 'frogs' because I do not see the need to degrade people whom are not like me. If you do, that is your prerogative.No, but it doesn't mean he has to be PC either. I know why I am ignorant, and an ass about it... it is because this kind of sh*t is being shoved down our throats day in and day out. So a certain level of hostility is expected.
I honestly dont care what gays/homosexuals (Whatever people are calling it these days) do. Place it in my life, and I will get a voice... which in effect is what will happen if forced upon the service members.
Adams
That is fine, and I agree to an extent, but that does not justify that level of ignorance. In fact, it justifies the very actions you appear to be rallying against; take a step back and afford these people the possibility that they do want to be degraded while serving their country just like you; then, take a further step back and consider that your hostilities contribute to the very issue you are hostile towards.I think my meaning was not conveyed correctly. I am not saying you can't say your piece about me or anyone else for that matter. I was more aiming at the debate at hand, that gays should be allowed to openly serve. In my mind, we the service members should make that decision, not the old crusties up in congress that know nothing about what happens on ground zero.
Adams
This is fundamentally ridiculous as well, and I agree. Special interest groups tend toward lobbying for special considerations as opposed to honest equality; favoring the needs and desires of a single group over another can create hostility - such as displayed in this thread.My problem with homosexuals in the military is that men are treated as if they do not have the ability to control their sexual urges and are therefor separated from their female counterparts. they can't room together, shower together and on a lot of installations they can't be on each other's floors.
Why is this considered okay and normal but the minute you question a homosexuals's ability to control themselves in the same situations, it's considered a phobia? It's the double standard that pisses me off.
So it is okay to allow them a level of comfort that I am to no longer afforded? Bottom line, it is one way or the other... there really is no median in this issue (well the median could be the dont ask dont tell policy). If allowed to be openly gay, I am not longer comfortable in my surroundings.That is fine, and I agree to an extent, but that does not justify that level of ignorance. In fact, it justifies the very actions you appear to be rallying against; take a step back and afford these people the possibility that they do want to be degraded while serving their country just like you; then, take a further step back and consider that your hostilities contribute to the very issue you are hostile towards.
I'm convinced you are gay. If you seek cognitive therapy, a doctor will embrace you and tell you it's not your fault, or even a conscious decision. You'll get angry at first, cry loudly for a bit, and then you'll accept who you are. At least, that's how it works in the movies.Oh, the irony of the video I'm posting...
This may surprise, but homosexuals are not a marauding band of butt-hole raiders, lying in wait to pillage your sweet anal virginity at every turn. It is hard to imagine, but they like other homosexuals!So it is okay to allow them a level of comfort that I am to no longer afforded? Bottom line, it is one way or the other... there really is no median in this issue (well the median could be the dont ask dont tell policy). If allowed to be openly gay, I am not longer comfortable in my surroundings.
As for the degrading remarks, I will retract that. Again, being forcefed the PC BS gets irritatin.
Adams
That was definitely crossing the line. When have I ever made a personal attack towards anyone in this thread?I'm convinced you are gay. If you seek cognitive therapy, a doctor will embrace you and tell you it's not your fault, or even a conscious decision. You'll get angry at first, cry loudly for a bit, and then you'll accept who you are. At least, that's how it works in the movies.