Need some fire, Nutrition HELP!!

[BB Ambitious]

Alright so I got into a heated debate with my girl-friend and I realized I wasn't very well equipped to explain some things to her. She is a Community Health Major and has taken classes that talk about all different things about nutrition. What was weird is she said I'm wasting money on Whey Protein, she said that the body produces it naturally and anything else is just extra, that the body doesn't use it and it just gets "pee'd out." To avoid the doghouse I just went along because 1. I was tired and 2. I couldn't come up with something to say.

So can anyone help me with this? Maybe a link to some scholarly articles?

 

[PublicEnemy]

There. I've found three bombshells for you to drop on her.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11591884

http://journals.lww.com/co-clinicalnutrition/Abstract/2008/01000/Effect_of_whey_protein_isolate_on_strength,_body.9.aspx

http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:Uj3mQxJwv64J:scholar.google.com/+whey+protein+supplementation&hl=en&as_sdt=100000000&as_vis=1

 

[BB Ambitious]

There. I've found three bombshells for you to drop on her.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11591884

http://journals.lww.com/co-clinicalnutrition/Abstract/2008/01000/Effect_of_whey_protein_isolate_on_strength,_body.9.aspx

http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:Uj3mQxJwv64J:scholar.google.com/+whey+protein+supplementation&hl=en&as_sdt=100000000&as_vis=1

Nice man, thanks, what about anything on the absorption of whey and it's breakdown once consumed?

 

[PublicEnemy]

Nice man, thanks, what about anything on the absorption of whey and it's breakdown once consumed?

If you googled hard enough you could find something. I can also tell you, sans citations the basic situation (too lazy to google again).

Pretty much whey is an extremely fast absorbing protein, everything I've seen points to increased plasma amino acids w/in 30 minutes. The body definitely does not produce it endogenously... well maybe a breastfeeding woman but that's an entirely other story. Once it enters the small intestine the individual peptides undergo hydrolysis and become broken into even small peptides until you have individual amino acids, which are then transported through the liver and into the plasma. Whey breaks down rather quickly so plasma amino acids will raise rather quickly.

And as far as the body pissing everything out not needed.... ask her how to quantify that, i.e. prove it.

 

[TimberLakers]

I'd just kick her in the face... but that's why I'm single.

 

[Ession]

HEY! Don't argue with the gf! Let her win! No need to stir up **** to prove a point. It'll make the relationship go sour! Let her be ignorant, just take out your anger while banging her

"UGGHHHH WHEY PROTEIN DOESSSS HELLPPP!!"

 

[EasyEJL]

although the body making it naturally part is totally freakin crazy, she does have a point. The whey you probably are wasting money on, and would get better results by getting the protein from solid food instead.

 

[BB Ambitious]

although the body making it naturally part is totally freakin crazy, she does have a point. The whey you probably are wasting money on, and would get better results by getting the protein from solid food instead.

But solid food doesn't have the same amino protein complex as Whey? And that's hella more expensive lol, I came to the conclusion that it helps as to up the amino BCAA levels but also a lot does get pee'd out, some absorbed and some used.. I don't think it's a waste, it does other things like suppress my appetite, and in all honesty I do think it helps when on a recomp or cut for that reason amongst others.

 

[EasyEJL]

But solid food doesn't have the same amino protein complex as Whey? And that's hella more expensive lol, I came to the conclusion that it helps as to up the amino BCAA levels but also a lot does get pee'd out, some absorbed and some used.. I don't think it's a waste, it does other things like suppress my appetite, and in all honesty I do think it helps when on a recomp or cut for that reason amongst others.

Celery or water would also suppress your appetite And you tell me, is your muscle tissue closer to a cows/fish's/chicken's muscles or to a cows milk?

Really not much gets peed out, but what isn't used is converted to glycogen as if it was carbs, and used that way. so taking in 150g+ of protein from solid foods and getting your rest of calories from carbs is pretty close to taking 300g of protein from whatever source and the rest from carbs.

A pound of muscle tissue contains 160g of protein. How much muscle synthesis do you think your body actually does in a single day?

 

[BB Ambitious]

Celery or water would also suppress your appetite And you tell me, is your muscle tissue closer to a cows/fish's/chicken's muscles or to a cows milk?

Really not much gets peed out, but what isn't used is converted to glycogen as if it was carbs, and used that way. so taking in 150g+ of protein from solid foods and getting your rest of calories from carbs is pretty close to taking 300g of protein from whatever source and the rest from carbs.

A pound of muscle tissue contains 160g of protein. How much muscle synthesis do you think your body actually does in a single day?

Haha yeah that's true and fair enough... also I have no idea, how much?

But now I'm just really confused, basically what I'm trying to get to, is the Whey a waste, and as you have said should I just work at getting that from foods?

 

[PublicEnemy]

HEY! Don't argue with the gf! Let her win! No need to stir up **** to prove a point. It'll make the relationship go sour! Let her be ignorant, just take out your anger while banging her

On the off chance you choose to ignore this sound advice; I'm an irrefutable fountain of misogynistic wisdom and one-liners.

although the body making it naturally part is totally freakin crazy, she does have a point. The whey you probably are wasting money on, and would get better results by getting the protein from solid food instead.

IMHO whey is going to outperform solid food postworkout in terms of results. Otherwise, excluding the convenience factor, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

[EasyEJL]

Haha yeah that's true and fair enough... also I have no idea, how much?

But now I'm just really confused, basically what I'm trying to get to, is the Whey a waste, and as you have said should I just work at getting that from foods?

Well, roughly without anabolics your body probably synthesizes 1oz or so of new muscle tissue a day, so maybe 10g of protein worth. it probably uses another 70-120 in just the repair processes.

Whey isn't entirely a waste, its just not as optimal as whole food. Its ok for convenience, speed, and portability. But if you have the option for whole food, its better. I still use whey, but avoid it when I can. Its more a convenience thing, when I realize i'm a little hungry and about to go out with my wife and kids somewhere, I may have a shake to both tide me over, and so I don't feel the need to try and get 60g of protein out of a restaurant or fast food meal (cause that gets $$$). And as i do workout first thing mornings fasted, I pretty frequently do a whey + fruit shake postworkout, then have a solid protein heavy meal in the following hour or so.

IMHO whey is going to outperform solid food postworkout in terms of results. Otherwise, excluding the convenience factor, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Yeah, in terms of a fasted first thing in the morning workout, using whey immediately after makes sense. However, if you had 8oz of chicken breast 1-2 hours before working out, its not nearly fully digested by that point. So its still releasing aminos into bloodstream anyhow, so any additional benefit of whey postworkout is iffy.

 

[EasyEJL]

And as far as it goes with your girlfriend, would you rather be right or would you rather get laid?

 

[PublicEnemy]

Yeah, in terms of a fasted first thing in the morning workout, using whey immediately after makes sense. However, if you had 8oz of chicken breast 1-2 hours before working out, its not nearly fully digested by that point. So its still releasing aminos into bloodstream anyhow, so any additional benefit of whey postworkout is iffy.

I agree. Its not nearly digested. I just lean towards whey in this instance because, from where I see it, whey is going to rapidly increase plasma amino acids far above where a slower digesting protein is going to w/in 30 minutes. Which works perfectly when you time it within the golden, oh so magical *window of opportunity.*

 

[EasyEJL]

I agree. Its not nearly digested. I just lean towards whey in this instance because, from where I see it, whey is going to rapidly increase plasma amino acids far above where a slower digesting protein is going to w/in 30 minutes. Which works perfectly when you time it within the golden, oh so magical *window of opportunity.*

Whats funny is if you look at actual absorption rates + longer term studies, casein gets used at about 5-6g/hr, whey at 8-10, and EAAs even higher, 12+. The funny thing is that the inverse is also true, when its casein in bloodstream protein oxidation is lowest, while with EAAs its highest. Net retained protein at 8 hours was pretty much identical in all the scenarios. I thought it was funny. Probably whey dosed at a 10g shake taken once an hour overall would be best.

 

[PublicEnemy]

Any links on hand?

 

[EasyEJL]

Any links on hand?

I pretty well summed it all up with links here a couple years back

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/110105-bustin-broscience-new.html#post1675329

 

[PublicEnemy]

I'm just confused as to why you think whey post workout is iffy.

Yes amino acids from the chicken would still be in the bloodstream. Whey is absorbed rapidly, postworkout it would further elevate plasma amino acids to aid in hypertrophy simply because the body is in a state of recovery.

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm just confused as to why you think whey post workout is iffy.

Yes amino acids from the chicken would still be in the bloodstream. Whey is absorbed rapidly, postworkout it would further elevate plasma amino acids to aid in hypertrophy simply because the body is in a state of recovery.

but the body doesn't work that way. Just because there are more building blocks doesn't mean it can synthesize any more muscle in that timespan. If you take in 60g of protein from chicken or beef, bloodstream is still saturated with aminos. And excess aminos will just be converted to glycogen via gluconeogenesis anyhow.

If you look at most of the studies, resistance trained athletes maintain to somewhat grow muscle mass as low as 1g of protein per KG of bodyweight. Thats 100g of protein for a 220lb male. Anything you are taking in beyond this pretty well goes to being glycogen instead. Even in that case, i'd rather take it in via solids and have slow constant digestion and feed of the aminos, and let them be slowly converted to glycogen.

Sure, if your preworkout meal was 20g of protein from egg whites only 2 hours before, then the shake does provide some value. But thats more of an issue of your preworkout meal being suboptimal, than the shake being necessary or important.

I'm not saying whey is bad or anything, just its not really necessary. Given that I can pick up boneless skinless chicken breasts under $2/lb, and sometimes the split breasts with skin + bone for $1/lb, or cans of tuna all working out to less than the cost of whey, I only use whey for convenience.

 

[EasyEJL]

I guess my point there overall is if you are going to have a good preworkout meal, then for what value a shake is postworkout, you might as well just eat a slow digesting low GI carb meal only immediately PWO, as that pretty well is how the whey will be used. And since carb sources are generally cheaper than protein, it makes sense to go that route.

 

[PublicEnemy]

I'm not saying whey is bad or anything, just its not really necessary.

I agree its not necessary if you have proper preworkout nutrition but it still has its uses.