Chuck Lidell washed up?

[flobot]

Let's face the facts. He's too slow now for his style.

Chuck fights w/ his hands mid-level (Chest-Hips) area all the time. Wide open in the head. He could get away from it before because he had quick footwork and an incredible sense of distance and timing.

As of late however, he's become much slower and he looks sluggish. His head is Always open and he only raises his hands against flurries. The problem is that he's always open to one-shot KO hits. And all those hits to the head are having some long-term effect too. Have you guys heard any of his interviews? He talks weird nowadays. He slurs and mumbles his words all the time.

In my personal opinion he should learn to box properly and start getting some physical defense (Ie. boxing basics...KEEP YOUR HANDS UP GODDAMNIT.) in his striking game. I cringe everytime I see him circling his opponent w/ his hands around his chest/hips area. I'm just waiting for that hook that'll put him out.

His style was unique and it worked for him in his prime but it's really time to change and accept the fact that he's not as fast or as agile as he once was.

His career is starting to go the way of Ken Shamrock's. If he could win one more big one and retire IMHO that's ideal.

 

[aquanutz]

He fights like his damn spine is fused together. His movements are broadcasted from outer space. He will probably be relegated to being the gatekeeper of the 205lbs division if he should continue to fight.

Don't you dare blaspheme against Ken Shamrock! He is the most dangerous man in the world, did you know that?

 

[Rodja]

He's far from washed up, but he needs to diversify his training. The game is evolving rapidly, but Chuck is still using the same methods from 5-7 years ago. He is the same guy every fight, which is making him predictable. If he used his wrestling more, then that would really help him to diversify his game (e.g. Vs Wand).

 

[TripDog]

He needs to come to terms that he's just a drunk now, and his conditioning sucks. Hang up the gloves chuck! All of his recent fights have been boring as hell....nothing special AT ALL! I'm glad he beat that homo wandi tho.

 

[DaTruthMMA]

Liddel is at his prime and although he suffered a devastating loss to Evans it in no way means that he is washed up. Seems as if ppl forgot about his dominance over Wand and keep in my mind that Liddell was fighting similar to how he fought Evans the only difference was that Evans was being elusive and Wand was going straight at Liddell.

Anyway, I am sure that Hackleman will bring in good boxing coaches to train Liddell and I'm certain that we will see a new Liddell when he fights again.

 

[aquanutz]

His prime? I disagree. I would say his prime was when he beat Overeem and Mezger in Pride.

His fight with Wand was a great fight for both fighters but I think if they fought again, Wand would take it.

Like others have said, he needs to incorporate his wrestling more and bring back some low kicks... ALSO TO KEEP HIS DAMN HANDS UP! He can't keep relying on his knockout power anymore.

 

[jas123]

He's far from washed up, but he needs to diversify his training. The game is evolving rapidly, but Chuck is still using the same methods from 5-7 years ago. He is the same guy every fight, which is making him predictable. If he used his wrestling more, then that would really help him to diversify his game (e.g. Vs Wand).

Pretty much. That and the fact that he was overrated at his "peak". He was always good, but most of us knew he would struggle against good strikers. He built his rep taking out grappling-based fighters which he matches up amazingly well against, but you could see him struggle against guys like Overeem, Mezger, and Page (first fight) even when he won the first 2 mentioned.

It seems like he might have lost a little snap his punches, though. He caught Wand on the chin many times and couldn't drop him, and he caught Jardine fairly cleanly as well.

Anyway, he could be a top 10, maybe top 5 guy again for a few years if he evolves and gets a better camp or brings new blood in.

 

[jas123]

He needs to come to terms that he's just a drunk now, and his conditioning sucks. Hang up the gloves chuck! All of his recent fights have been boring as hell....nothing special AT ALL! I'm glad he beat that homo wandi tho.

His fight against Wand was boring? That was a complete classic. Round 2 was simply amazing.

 

[Rodja]

His fight against Wand was boring? That was a complete classic. Round 2 was simply amazing.

I guess his rationale is that it's boring if Chuck does not KO someone. He hasn't really used his kicks since he had foot surgery after the 3rd Couture fight.

 

[jas123]

It seems like he dropped kicks from his game when training for all the grapplers which makes sense, but then never put them back in after.

 

[aquanutz]

His fight against Wand was boring? That was a complete classic. Round 2 was simply amazing.

I was screaming the entire time. It was an awesome fight. It's the only UFC even I've ever payed for.
:bruce3:

 

[VolcomX311]

That was a great fight, but also a horrible memory because it pissed me off when Liddell pulled it off.

 

[robdog]

His prime? I disagree. I would say his prime was when he beat Overeem and Mezger in Pride.

His fight with Wand was a great fight for both fighters but I think if they fought again, Wand would take it.

Like others have said, he needs to incorporate his wrestling more and bring back some low kicks... ALSO TO KEEP HIS DAMN HANDS UP! He can't keep relying on his knockout power anymore.

His prime came later. It lasted from when he beat couture in their 2nd fight to when he lost to Rampage in their second fight.

 

[flobot]

So who do you guys think Chuck's next fight is? I wonder if he even deserves his paycheck anymore..

BTW I read from fightsport magazine that Tim Sylvia was paid something like 25 grand a SECOND to fight in the Affliction: Banned event. If every fighter was paid like that man! I'd jump in the ring w/ someone 40 lbs. over me and start runnin around gaining money PER SECOND haha.

 

[somewhatgifted]

He's been a one trick pony for far too long the game has grown and diversified and chuck hasnt. like rodja said. The ole bait and punch tactic is his bread and butter and now he may want to consider doing something else. As long as he wants to keep going there will be a fight for chuck liddel and he has hand power that wont change much but guys arent going to trade with him every fight.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

A good threat, an interesting question. I think for sure is that Dana White won't let Chuck fall like a hot potato, as opposed to say Houston Alexander, whose career is now very prolly over (in the UFC).

I remember how Rogan said that Silva was the ideal opponent for the potbellied one, it seems as soon as the opponent is not so ideal anymore, Chuck runs into trouble.

It might be damn difficult for Chuck to realize that guys like Machida or Evans, and certainly Jackson can only give him Liddell, eh, I mean, hell.

 

[Emerge]

If he changes his strategies and adds more to his repertoire, I think he can keep fighting. But, he is pretty old already to start new things and because he has had so much success with his style now, I doubt he will be able to do it.

Personally, I think he should fight a couple of more fights and retire. He should only fight people he can beat though, lol because he is getting hurt pretty bad.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

Now that you write Emerge, I realize how much damage Chuck might take - maybe more than even he can bear.

For me, the single Evans straight jab basically shattered the whole Liddell myth.

 

[Emerge]

I saw his kryptonie in rampage I, rampage II solidified it for me.

Evans was just sad. Lol, I thought evans would eventually take him down and beat him by decision. I was actually cheering for chuck that fight, first time ever.

 

[flobot]

I wonder if Chuck'll ever get to fight Anderson Silva. That guy is the real pitbull. Lanky, looks weak, looks like a nice guy...but man does he remind me of Tekken or what...

However..I'd pay more to see GSP vs. Anderson Silva than Lidell vs. Silva. GSP & Silva remind me of video game characters that can do 10 hit combos.

(And watch how Silva attacks when he's got his opponent cornered/hurt...doesn't it somewhat remind you Jin's movements from Tekken? Left right backfist lowkick right etc.)

 

[Emerge]

But pitbulls don't look weak. They look every bit as vicious as they can be.

But yeah, liddel vs silva would just be hilarious.

Silva vs GSP would be rather sexy.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

I cant imagine Silva vs Liddell would happen. Btw, Silva at 206 lbs didn't look weak at all (though James Irvin was more massive, for sure).

 

[Emerge]

Technique and Skill > Massiveness

 

[flobot]

Technique and Massiveness > Technique and Skill

Hehehe. Did bjj for quite a bit back when the UFC was new and I was a kid going for the next big thing. Actually got my blue belt before I quit. Strength, regardless of what anybody says, can nullify a LOT of technique esp. at Purple belt and below. I overpowered a blue belt to get my blue belt lol.

Technique and Skill > Massiveness

 

[Rodja]

Technique and Massiveness > Technique and Skill

Hehehe. Did bjj for quite a bit back when the UFC was new and I was a kid going for the next big thing. Actually got my blue belt before I quit. Strength, regardless of what anybody says, can nullify a LOT of technique esp. at Purple belt and below. I overpowered a blue belt to get my blue belt lol.

Most elite MMAers are well above a purple belt level. The best BJJ guy that I have rolled with on a consistent basis is a high-level purple that is not nearly as physically strong as several people up there, but he rarely gets tapped.

 

[robdog]

Most elite MMAers are well above a purple belt level. The best BJJ guy that I have rolled with on a consistent basis is a high-level purple that is not nearly as physically strong as several people up there, but he rarely gets tapped.

I hated rolling with that smiley bastard.

 

[Rodja]

I hated rolling with that smiley bastard.

I almost Rampaged him on Monday, but he did the swim under my leg. I will tap him one of these days, but I'm afraid he'll get pissed and hurt me. He got really pissed when I almost RNC'd him.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

I almost Rampaged him on Monday, but he did the swim under my leg. I will tap him one of these days, but I'm afraid he'll get pissed and hurt me. He got really pissed when I almost RNC'd him.

Did you ever roll with the Spider Anderson S.?

 

[Rodja]

Did you ever roll with the Spider Anderson S.?

No, the triangle he subbed Lutter with was more of a lower back crank than anything.

 

[robdog]

I almost Rampaged him on Monday, but he did the swim under my leg. I will tap him one of these days, but I'm afraid he'll get pissed and hurt me. He got really pissed when I almost RNC'd him.

Face plant to armbar. "Never grab my fingers again" :icon_lol:

 

[flobot]

Yeah purple belts are very skilled compared to blues, it's like almost a whole new world again.

This is sort of unrelated but is fun and you might want to try it sometimes when you guys roll:

What my friend (who is also a black belt judoka,) who trains Pro-wrestling (ie. fake wrestling,) told me to do when I'm inside someone's guard is to establish your base, grab both his legs (and it doesn't matter if his guard is closed..it will open I promise or his back breaks.) and Overpower him over as you Explosively step over on one side or the other with one leg and BOSTON CRAB the **** out of him. And you have to do it quick before he sits up and tries to kimura you. Works better also in a no-gi match.

When I couldn't figure out what to do to tap a guy or if I'm stuck in an awesome guard that's what I did time and again, the BOSTON CRAB. And it freaking works, If You're Stronger Than The Other Guy. (You have better been doing squats in the gym..) This is why I always believed that Strength always has its uses because if you can't outwit them, you can overpower them.

Be prepared to get omfgwtfpwnd by your instructor though when he sees what you're doing hahahaha.

Most elite MMAers are well above a purple belt level. The best BJJ guy that I have rolled with on a consistent basis is a high-level purple that is not nearly as physically strong as several people up there, but he rarely gets tapped.

 

[Rodja]

How the hell do you pull that off without getting swept or subbed? Unless you are rolling with a newb with zero skill that is a horrible idea. You completely leave neck exposed and are vulnerable to a sweep because you don't have your arms to base out.

 

[flobot]

You have to literally surprise and explode w/ the move because he doesn't know what you're trying to do. First of all you have to have heavy hips,be on your toes and your knees and Widen your base. Once you grab on to both his legs, there's no going back otherwise you lose because yeah he's gonna sit up and try to guillotine (keep your head straight) or kimura you and that's the greatest threat. You have to roll Before he sits up. His legs are no threat for the meantime because they're both held by your arms.

All you need is Half a Second to start it and once you get it going it's really hard for the other person to do anything about it if you're strong enough.

I would try it in no-gi as people have a tendency to latch on to any part of your gi once they realize what's starting to happen.

How the hell do you pull that off without getting swept or subbed? Unless you are rolling with a newb with zero skill that is a horrible idea. You completely leave neck exposed and are vulnerable to a sweep because you don't have your arms to base out.

 

[Emerge]

Technique and Massiveness > Technique and Skill

Hehehe. Did bjj for quite a bit back when the UFC was new and I was a kid going for the next big thing. Actually got my blue belt before I quit. Strength, regardless of what anybody says, can nullify a LOT of technique esp. at Purple belt and below. I overpowered a blue belt to get my blue belt lol.

If people are on the same skill level.. yes. But technique also accounts for perfect timing. Trust me, in BJJ NOTHING is better than great technique and timing.

Our black belt rolls with people of every size dudes that bench 300+ and he EATS their faces regularly. Our black belt competes at 155.

 

[Emerge]

Yeah purple belts are very skilled compared to blues, it's like almost a whole new world again.

This is sort of unrelated but is fun and you might want to try it sometimes when you guys roll:

What my friend (who is also a black belt judoka,) who trains Pro-wrestling (ie. fake wrestling,) told me to do when I'm inside someone's guard is to establish your base, grab both his legs (and it doesn't matter if his guard is closed..it will open I promise or his back breaks.) and Overpower him over as you Explosively step over on one side or the other with one leg and BOSTON CRAB the **** out of him. And you have to do it quick before he sits up and tries to kimura you. Works better also in a no-gi match.

When I couldn't figure out what to do to tap a guy or if I'm stuck in an awesome guard that's what I did time and again, the BOSTON CRAB. And it freaking works, If You're Stronger Than The Other Guy. (You have better been doing squats in the gym..) This is why I always believed that Strength always has its uses because if you can't outwit them, you can overpower them.

Be prepared to get omfgwtfpwnd by your instructor though when he sees what you're doing hahahaha.

That honestly sounds ridiculous, and something that will not work time and time again. Besides you're saying, "you have to have strong hips, and surprise him, and be stronger, and this and that" that's not what BJJ is about. BJJ is a sport that is supposed to be all about TECHNIQUE and that will account for anything else.

This sounds like a problem solver, and it may be.. but you are just limiting yourself because you aren't learning how to effectively break someone's guard and pass. To each his own, but I rather take my time and learn things that will work time and time again.

Purples are a complete different world than blues. It seems like getting the purple is the hardest to attain and the level they roll at is really not that far behind the browns. I can't wait until I make purple that'll be awesome.

 

[Mo250]

how would power punchers like David tua fair against those BJJ guys?

 

[Emerge]

It would go bad for him on the ground, specially of the BJJ guy is well versed in ground and pound techniques.

 

[flobot]

It's a surprise move that wouldn't hurt to add to your arsenal and you only try to use it when everything else has failed.

GOod luck on that purple man! I'm gonna go back someday and wear a white belt so I could actually relearn Everything. I miss rolling.

That honestly sounds ridiculous, and something that will not work time and time again. Besides you're saying, "you have to have strong hips, and surprise him, and be stronger, and this and that" that's not what BJJ is about. BJJ is a sport that is supposed to be all about TECHNIQUE and that will account for anything else.

This sounds like a problem solver, and it may be.. but you are just limiting yourself because you aren't learning how to effectively break someone's guard and pass. To each his own, but I rather take my time and learn things that will work time and time again.

Purples are a complete different world than blues. It seems like getting the purple is the hardest to attain and the level they roll at is really not that far behind the browns. I can't wait until I make purple that'll be awesome.

 

[DIESELDP11]

I love Chuck but yes, hes done..... GSP is the best pound for pound...NOT Anderson Silva!

 

[SpargelJanusz]

Read this on another board, and it reflects my thoughts on Chuck too: "Rashad simply beat an empty shell of what once was a dominant Chuck Liddell".

To play this through - given what Chuck has done for the UFC, I cannot imagine he'll be forced to resign. But how would the road to a LHW title match look now?

Imaginable would be a re-match vs Jardine (who is not near a contender position for the belt), and if the UFC is nasty, Jackson for the 3rd time. Chuck would be handed his 3rd defeat by Rampage, and would for sure resign afterwards.

 

[robdog]

I love Chuck but yes, hes done..... GSP is the best pound for pound...NOT Anderson Silva!

Fedor, then GSP, then Anderson.

 

[somewhatgifted]

Fedor, then GSP, then Anderson.

Ive always thought bj penn should be on this list not sure where tho.

 

[Emerge]

BJ has competed all the way at 205, so he should definitely be on that list. I'm not so sure about fedor. Yes, he is the best heavyweight I've seen... but I'd like to see him drop to 205 and beat some foos up. Likewise with GSP (my favorite fighter), I want to see him go up (as going down is probably not likely) in weight and beat some foos up before I can call him the pound for pound best fighter.

 

[DIESELDP11]

Fedor, then GSP, then Anderson.

Fedor is lucky the heavyweight division is a joke...GSP,GSP,GSP:hammer:

 

[robdog]

BJ has competed all the way at 205, so he should definitely be on that list. I'm not so sure about fedor. Yes, he is the best heavyweight I've seen... but I'd like to see him drop to 205 and beat some foos up. Likewise with GSP (my favorite fighter), I want to see him go up (as going down is probably not likely) in weight and beat some foos up before I can call him the pound for pound best fighter.

Why would he go to LHW when he has DOMINATED every hw he's fought? If it aint broke dont fix it.

 

[robdog]

Fedor is lucky the heavyweight division is a joke...GSP,GSP,GSP:hammer:

The pride HW division was no joke.

 

[Emerge]

Why would he go to LHW when he has DOMINATED every hw he's fought? If it aint broke dont fix it.

To prove he is the best POUND for POUND. He can prove he is the best HW by beating up everyone in the HW, but that alone does not merit a best pound for pound.

It's the same reason boxers move up and down weight classes to gather belts. It's the same reason Silva moved up to 205 to beat Irving. Just to challenge yourself all that much more. I think Fedor has the skill set to be dominant in LHW, but we won't know for sure unless he does. Until he does, it's all theory.

 

[DaTruthMMA]

To prove he is the best POUND for POUND. He can prove he is the best HW by beating up everyone in the HW, but that alone does not merit a best pound for pound.

It's the same reason boxers move up and down weight classes to gather belts. It's the same reason Silva moved up to 205 to beat Irving. Just to challenge yourself all that much more. I think Fedor has the skill set to be dominant in LHW, but we won't know for sure unless he does. Until he does, it's all theory.

If Fedor cut down to 205 he would gas after the second round and ppl will get wins over him easy.
I think its best he stay at HW.

 

[Emerge]

How would you know that for sure? Sean Sherk looks like he cuts from 185 to 155 and he does great as far as stamina. Tito cuts from something like 230. Cutting is part of the sport man. And, like I said it would provide a new challenge.

 

[jas123]

If Fedor cut down to 205 he would gas after the second round and ppl will get wins over him easy.
I think its best he stay at HW.

:blink: You say it definitively when there's no proof. Fedor's never had any conditioning issues and I doubt that he would cut from 230. He'd probably drop some weight in training before the cut. It's irrelevant anyway as he wouldn't drop down to 205.