Adrenal FATIGUE/ Low DHEA levels

[solonjk]

I have serious adrenal fatigue issues.
Its been on for a yr now.
Last 3 weeks cant get out of bed for more than a couple of hours.

It all started after finasteride use. It wrecked my libido so i had to pump up excess iron and do loads of squats to get back some of my lost sexual interest.

Ended up getting the worst sympathetic dominance type of overtraining ever. 6 months of heavy inflammed legs, neuromuscular problems, coordination issues, breathing problems, exhaustion, put up 20 pounds of weight and then it all came down to adrenal fatigue because off the inflammations and because i was dum enough to listen to coaches/doctors telling me to go swimming and drinking massive amounts of coffee thinking that cross exercise and stimulation would help me out of overtraining. Yet i was well into adrenal exhaustion and couldnt realise that. Coaches and doctors were all baffled. Ignorant fools telling me to cross exercise.

I almost recovered using adrenal cortex from wilson at some point but developed a serious mycobacterium infection in my genitals. Put on cipro for 3 weeks. That gave my adrenals a heavier blast.

Now after a year struggling between bed and hostpitals ive been feeling sicker than ever. I tried HC for 6-7 weeks but it messed up my head,have increased intracranial pressure and dizziness and nausea 2 months now and it doesnt seem to go away. It also messed up my thyroid levels really bad. Finally thyroid is coming back thank god.

So i go again for tests and find that this time my DHEA-S, Androstendione (Δ4) and 17-0H-progesterone have hit rock bottom. No need in doing cortisol saliva tests again after that i guess.

Im completely hypoglycemic, exhausted, depressed, sick of all this, no libido, ****ed up completely and i look at life from a keyhole right now hoping for a miracle.

Cant take Hydrocortisone/licorice or anyother blood pressure altering drug.
Cant take any more adrenal extracts coz i just simply dont trust the cows and pigs that they make those things from.

Thinking of taking DHEA supplement but dont know alot of people who have taken it to get some feedback.

Anyone pls help, will a DHEA supplementation help me revive my adrenals? Or should i keep on waiting and waiting? I have sleep issues as well so i take benzos some times or valeriana with mixed results. I think the benzos are exhausting me more.

Im in a freaking deadend dont know what to do anymore. I just feel so tired. Amazingly tired. No energy to get out of this stupid room. A single cigarette or a slight sip of coffee makes me so tired and hypoglycemic. I thought i would have recovered a yr after all this started but still nothing.

Any advice/ info on DHEA supplements? Will DHEA help my adrenals recover and cortisol get back to its normal producing rythms? Or is it direclty antagonizing to cortisol?

At this time i think that my adrenals are so blown that the whole pregnenolone pathway is shunted towards cortisol production thats why my DHEA levels are so low.

I am thinking of RESET ad as well but scared of the blood pressure altering potentials of licorice. How much glycirrizhic acid is in this product?

this is some of my blood work

17-oh-progesterone 0.5 ng/ml (0.4-2.3)
DHEA-s 1.0 μmol/L (1.5-5.0)
Androstendione Δ4 0.5 (0.8-2.8)
SHBG 40 nmol/l (10-70)
TSH 2.65 μIU/ml (0.25-5)
ft3 2.5 pg/ml (1.8-4.5)
ft4 14 pg/ml (7.0-20.0)
progesterone 0.3 ng/ml <1.0
testo 4.4 ng/ml (2.6-10)
free testo 18 pg/ml (13-41)
Albumin 5.3 g/dl (3.4-4.8)
DHT 0.6 ng/ml (0.3-0.9)
E2 (estradiol) 36pg/ml <70
FSH 2.7 miU/ml (3.4-20.5)
LH 3.3 miU.ml (1.6-8)

I ve never seen my LH levels so low in my life. I wonder is it because of my diet that testo increased a bit (it was 3.4-3.5) for last 3 months- but last 1 month i have been eating massive amounts of broccoli and loads of greens/vegetables along with fish mainly or beef.

Im also taking OMEGA-3-6-9 supplement but i heard that this may block adrenal steroidogenesis. I dont know how this may happen though!

I also take vitamin C 2g/day
Vitamin B5 (pantothenic acid) 1g/day
a bunch of other vitamins in their daily allowance dosages


Is there a safe adrenal product i can use to restore my low DHEA/Cortisol levels??

Something else, do you think a major antidepressant would help? I think that my noradrenaline receptors after so manymonths into overtraining are so upregulated that a slightest stimulation blasts my adrenals badly.

 

[JanSz]

I have serious adrenal fatigue issues.
Its been on for a yr now.
Last 3 weeks cant get out of bed for more than a couple of hours.

It all started after finasteride use. It wrecked my libido so i had to pump up excess iron and do loads of squats to get back some of my lost sexual interest.

Ended up getting the worst sympathetic dominance type of overtraining ever. 6 months of heavy inflammed legs, neuromuscular problems, coordination issues, breathing problems, exhaustion, put up 20 pounds of weight and then it all came down to adrenal fatigue because off the inflammations and because i was dum enough to listen to coaches/doctors telling me to go swimming and drinking massive amounts of coffee thinking that cross exercise and stimulation would help me out of overtraining. Yet i was well into adrenal exhaustion and couldnt realise that. Coaches and doctors were all baffled. Ignorant fools telling me to cross exercise.

I almost recovered using adrenal cortex from wilson at some point but developed a serious mycobacterium infection in my genitals. Put on cipro for 3 weeks. That gave my adrenals a heavier blast.

Now after a year struggling between bed and hostpitals ive been feeling sicker than ever. I tried HC for 6-7 weeks but it messed up my head,have increased intracranial pressure and dizziness and nausea 2 months now and it doesnt seem to go away. It also messed up my thyroid levels really bad. Finally thyroid is coming back thank god.

So i go again for tests and find that this time my DHEA-S, Androstendione (Δ4) and 17-0H-progesterone have hit rock bottom. No need in doing cortisol saliva tests again after that i guess.

Im completely hypoglycemic, exhausted, depressed, sick of all this, no libido, ****ed up completely and i look at life from a keyhole right now hoping for a miracle.

Cant take Hydrocortisone/licorice or anyother blood pressure altering drug.
Cant take any more adrenal extracts coz i just simply dont trust the cows and pigs that they make those things from.

Thinking of taking DHEA supplement but dont know alot of people who have taken it to get some feedback.

Anyone pls help, will a DHEA supplementation help me revive my adrenals? Or should i keep on waiting and waiting? I have sleep issues as well so i take benzos some times or valeriana with mixed results. I think the benzos are exhausting me more.

Im in a freaking deadend dont know what to do anymore. I just feel so tired. Amazingly tired. No energy to get out of this stupid room. A single cigarette or a slight sip of coffee makes me so tired and hypoglycemic. I thought i would have recovered a yr after all this started but still nothing.

Any advice/ info on DHEA supplements? Will DHEA help my adrenals recover and cortisol get back to its normal producing rythms? Or is it direclty antagonizing to cortisol?

At this time i think that my adrenals are so blown that the whole pregnenolone pathway is shunted towards cortisol production thats why my DHEA levels are so low.

I am thinking of RESET ad as well but scared of the blood pressure altering potentials of licorice. How much glycirrizhic acid is in this product?

this is some of my blood work

17-oh-progesterone 0.5 ng/ml (0.4-2.3)
DHEA-s 1.0 μmol/L (1.5-5.0)
Androstendione Δ4 0.5 (0.8-2.8)
SHBG 40 nmol/l (10-70)
TSH 2.65 μIU/ml (0.25-5)
ft3 2.5 pg/ml (1.8-4.5)
ft4 14 pg/ml (7.0-20.0)
progesterone 0.3 ng/ml <1.0
testo 4.4 ng/ml (2.6-10)
free testo 18 pg/ml (13-41)
Albumin 5.3 g/dl (3.4-4.8)
DHT 0.6 ng/ml (0.3-0.9)
E2 (estradiol) 36pg/ml <70
FSH 2.7 miU/ml (3.4-20.5)
LH 3.3 miU.ml (1.6-8)

I ve never seen my LH levels so low in my life. I wonder is it because of my diet that testo increased a bit (it was 3.4-3.5) for last 3 months- but last 1 month i have been eating massive amounts of broccoli and loads of greens/vegetables along with fish mainly or beef.

Im also taking OMEGA-3-6-9 supplement but i heard that this may block adrenal steroidogenesis. I dont know how this may happen though!

I also take vitamin C 2g/day
Vitamin B5 (pantothenic acid) 1g/day
a bunch of other vitamins in their daily allowance dosages


Is there a safe adrenal product i can use to restore my low DHEA/Cortisol levels??

Something else, do you think a major antidepressant would help? I think that my noradrenaline receptors after so manymonths into overtraining are so upregulated that a slightest stimulation blasts my adrenals badly.

Get some adrenals tests.
Your thyroid is low.
Your SHBG is very high, need lots of testosterone.
SHBG is probably due to other problems.
------------
Get this test:

NutrEval

http://www.iwdl.net/NutrEval.htm

http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/findsystems/nutrition.html

 

[seanhysong]

adrenal fatigue solutions

i dont usually post but since ive had a lot of the same problems and know how helpless you can feel in that situation ill tell you what worked for me.

The first thing that helped tremendously was high dose vitamin c. there's a book available about adrenal fatigue and the directions for vit. c are:
take 1-2g every couple of hours until you notice a loosening of your stools. i know it sounds funny but the reason behind this is that your body's highest repository of vit. c is stored in your ADRENAL GLANDS. Keep in mind also that some people need up to 20 grams/day. I know, thats a lot but its not a long term plan just to revive your tired glands. you should get a very noticable kick from this. try it for about a week or two. just do it you have nothing to lose as excess vit. c is, well, basically sent to the toilet. You should basically have diharrea for a little bit (that's the only you'll know your body is getting the MAX amount of vit. c required)
The next best supplement i would suggest is tyrosine. tyrosine helps because it converts to norepinephrine as well as other ADRENALINE (just what the adrenal glands need) precursors. It also works wonders for the libido. the general concensus on tyrosine is at least 3 grams/day but you can use up to nine grams as well. Make sure you take it along with some b6 to help the conversion to adrenaline. You can take that same dosage long term as well with no side effects.
It may be of interest for you to also supplement with some phosphatidylcholine as well as it also helps immensely with nervous system recovery. Phosphatidylcholine is derived from lecithin so you should be able to order some lecithin granules online (bodybuilding.com, etc.) for a really good price. You should be fine with a 2-4tablespoons/day of the granules.
You didn't mention any problems with your digestion or whatever but if the vit. c causes too much of a problem I would recommend about 5-20g of Glutamine/day while you do the vit. c protocol. Glutamine is wonderful for people with leaky gut and IBS so it should help maintain the integrity of your body's GI tract.
And last but definitely no least, yes i would recommend dhea. DHEA is also an adrenal hormone so, although im no expert on dhea, it will help replenish your body's natural store of dhea. the basic recommended amount is about 50g/day split in two doses (morning and afternoon). Make sure there isnt any calcium carbonate in it as well. Just look for plain "dhea" on the label.
Also whatch out for side effects like acne, excess facial hair, and whatnot. If you experience anything like that you can either lower the dose to about 10-25g/day or switch to 7-keto dhea. 7-keto dhea has pretty much most, if not all, of the positives without any negative side effects.

Well there you go. Thats what worked well for me. If you follow the above the only thing you have to worry about is getting a solid nights rest. if sleep is a problem i would highly recommend some ZMA stacked with a little valerian/ melatonin(~3-5g should do the trick).
Anyhow please dont be too skeptical as Ive been in your shoes and had no idea what to do. I even tried the licorice and whatnot. Got nothing from it. Just try the protocol out. It should help. Youve got nothing to lose and a hell of a lot to gain.

Good Luck:wave:

 

[JanSz]

i dont usually post but since ive had a lot of the same problems and know how helpless you can feel in that situation ill tell you what worked for me.

The first thing that helped tremendously was high dose vitamin c. there's a book available about adrenal fatigue and the directions for vit. c are:
take 1-2g every couple of hours until you notice a loosening of your stools. i know it sounds funny but the reason behind this is that your body's highest repository of vit. c is stored in your ADRENAL GLANDS. Keep in mind also that some people need up to 20 grams/day. I know, thats a lot but its not a long term plan just to revive your tired glands. you should get a very noticable kick from this. try it for about a week or two. just do it you have nothing to lose as excess vit. c is, well, basically sent to the toilet. You should basically have diharrea for a little bit (that's the only you'll know your body is getting the MAX amount of vit. c required)
The next best supplement i would suggest is tyrosine. tyrosine helps because it converts to norepinephrine as well as other ADRENALINE (just what the adrenal glands need) precursors. It also works wonders for the libido. the general concensus on tyrosine is at least 3 grams/day but you can use up to nine grams as well. Make sure you take it along with some b6 to help the conversion to adrenaline. You can take that same dosage long term as well with no side effects.
It may be of interest for you to also supplement with some phosphatidylcholine as well as it also helps immensely with nervous system recovery. Phosphatidylcholine is derived from lecithin so you should be able to order some lecithin granules online (bodybuilding.com, etc.) for a really good price. You should be fine with a 2-4tablespoons/day of the granules.
You didn't mention any problems with your digestion or whatever but if the vit. c causes too much of a problem I would recommend about 5-20g of Glutamine/day while you do the vit. c protocol. Glutamine is wonderful for people with leaky gut and IBS so it should help maintain the integrity of your body's GI tract.
And last but definitely no least, yes i would recommend dhea. DHEA is also an adrenal hormone so, although im no expert on dhea, it will help replenish your body's natural store of dhea. the basic recommended amount is about 50g/day split in two doses (morning and afternoon). Make sure there isnt any calcium carbonate in it as well. Just look for plain "dhea" on the label.
Also whatch out for side effects like acne, excess facial hair, and whatnot. If you experience anything like that you can either lower the dose to about 10-25g/day or switch to 7-keto dhea. 7-keto dhea has pretty much most, if not all, of the positives without any negative side effects.

Well there you go. Thats what worked well for me. If you follow the above the only thing you have to worry about is getting a solid nights rest. if sleep is a problem i would highly recommend some ZMA stacked with a little valerian/ melatonin(~3-5g should do the trick).
Anyhow please dont be too skeptical as Ive been in your shoes and had no idea what to do. I even tried the licorice and whatnot. Got nothing from it. Just try the protocol out. It should help. Youve got nothing to lose and a hell of a lot to gain.

Good Luck:wave:

seanhysong
this is your very first post.
I would hope that you find time to share with us some more knowledge that I see you have.

You are hitting many supplements that were recomended after my tests at Genova Diagnostics.
I posted the here:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/77385-jansz-metabolic-analysis.html

I am planning to get more organized and focused testing sometime end of month or april.
I will do then
NutrEval
EstroEssence comprehensive 24 hr
Thyroid comprehensive panel

If you are real busy I would rather wait for results from thise new tests.

I live NJ 07054

 

[solonjk]

If i take any norepinephrine/epinephrine precursor and phosphatidyl serine i m basically sticking a magnum 45 inside my mouth and pressing the trigger.

I tested serum noradrenaline 6 months ago and was found to be in a sympathetic overdrive from training. Norepinephrine is a very devious neurotransmitter, it is highly proinflammatory and in high levels for long terms it causes the adrenals to literaly crack down. Elevates cortisol levels to unbearable extends and if not brought down can damage you like they did to me. I was told to refrain from all noradrenaline inducing stimuli, like smoking, competitive exercise, sudden/extreme cold or heat, drinking alcohol etc etc.

I was also told to jump on SSRIs and Norepinephrine Inhibitors to combat overtraining in its initial stages but i was too afraid of taking such drugs. I regret it now since i have spend a year in bed and literally my athletic career looks like it ended prematurely. After 9-10 months of fighting with my autonomic nervous system imbalance noradrenaline started to drop and my adrenals started their long healing journey. If i didnt get a stupid infection i would probably be quite better by now but i am on a very unlucky strike lately.

Regarding PC like Phosphatidylserine, its a cortisol limiting and suppresing substance why would i take that? I need cortisol as much as i need water to live on at this time.

Vitamin C is good i know, i take 2 grams at the moment with or without bioflavs i will try to increase it in the future. Also concerned about my liver with all them vitamins i am ingesting.

Are you sure you had adrenal fatigue/low DHEA/low cort? Because adrenal fatigue can be due to any significant change in DHEA/cortisol ratio. It doesnt always imply low cortisol/dhea reserves. It may be due to high morning Cortisol low dhea reserves as well.

Dhea is interesting but because i took finasteride in the past i cant take this without medical supervision since i have developed chronic prostatitis. Yet 7-keto i also read its a better choice.

Im actually thinking of pregnenolone but dont know where to find a decent source of it, its not sold around here and i always wanna do something with a doctor knowing. I ve tried self medicating it was a mistake.

 

[RBKing]

I would try Reset AD, works great. Youv'e already seen doctors who couldn't help you. It will probably take a while to
restore homeostasis for you. Palo Alto reps are a good source of knowledge and always willing to help.

 

[RBKing]

SSRIs may help but should only be taken under medical supervision. Reset AD has pregnenolone in it and its inexpensive.

 

[JanSz]

If i take any norepinephrine/epinephrine precursor and phosphatidyl serine i m basically sticking a magnum 45 inside my mouth and pressing the trigger.

I tested serum noradrenaline 6 months ago and was found to be in a sympathetic overdrive from training. Norepinephrine is a very devious neurotransmitter, it is highly proinflammatory and in high levels for long terms it causes the adrenals to literaly crack down. Elevates cortisol levels to unbearable extends and if not brought down can damage you like they did to me. I was told to refrain from all noradrenaline inducing stimuli, like smoking, competitive exercise, sudden/extreme cold or heat, drinking alcohol etc etc.

I was also told to jump on SSRIs and Norepinephrine Inhibitors to combat overtraining in its initial stages but i was too afraid of taking such drugs. I regret it now since i have spend a year in bed and literally my athletic career looks like it ended prematurely. After 9-10 months of fighting with my autonomic nervous system imbalance noradrenaline started to drop and my adrenals started their long healing journey. If i didnt get a stupid infection i would probably be quite better by now but i am on a very unlucky strike lately.

Regarding PC like Phosphatidylserine, its a cortisol limiting and suppresing substance why would i take that? I need cortisol as much as i need water to live on at this time.

Vitamin C is good i know, i take 2 grams at the moment with or without bioflavs i will try to increase it in the future. Also concerned about my liver with all them vitamins i am ingesting.

Are you sure you had adrenal fatigue/low DHEA/low cort? Because adrenal fatigue can be due to any significant change in DHEA/cortisol ratio. It doesnt always imply low cortisol/dhea reserves. It may be due to high morning Cortisol low dhea reserves as well.

Dhea is interesting but because i took finasteride in the past i cant take this without medical supervision since i have developed chronic prostatitis. Yet 7-keto i also read its a better choice.

Im actually thinking of pregnenolone but dont know where to find a decent source of it, its not sold around here and i always wanna do something with a doctor knowing. I ve tried self medicating it was a mistake.

Direct testing od neurotransmitters is useless unles brain biopsy.

Try Genova Diagnostics
Metaboilc analysis Profile.
See report on my first post here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/77385-jansz-metabolic-analysis.html
They do indirect testing there.
Also note that results of the test come with commentary and suggestions for supplements, name, dose and other tests whem appropriate.

 

[crader]

Wow I hope you start feeling better soon. I have adrenal fatigue as well and when I take Reset it helps quite a bit1

 

[seanhysong]

you may want to have youre eyesight checked next time youre in the doctors office . i was recommending phosphatidylCHOLINE not phophatidylserine. anyhow good luck with the rest of your problems.:thumbsup:

 

[solonjk]

lol, i know, it has the same action you didnt read my post well enough my friend. Ps and Pc are employed for the same reason- they have cortisol suppresing action.

 

[jinxie]

If i take any norepinephrine/epinephrine precursor and phosphatidyl serine i m basically sticking a magnum 45 inside my mouth and pressing the trigger.

I tested serum noradrenaline 6 months ago and was found to be in a sympathetic overdrive from training. Norepinephrine is a very devious neurotransmitter, it is highly proinflammatory and in high levels for long terms it causes the adrenals to literaly crack down. Elevates cortisol levels to unbearable extends and if not brought down can damage you like they did to me. I was told to refrain from all noradrenaline inducing stimuli, like smoking, competitive exercise, sudden/extreme cold or heat, drinking alcohol etc etc.

I was also told to jump on SSRIs and Norepinephrine Inhibitors to combat overtraining in its initial stages but i was too afraid of taking such drugs. I regret it now since i have spend a year in bed and literally my athletic career looks like it ended prematurely. After 9-10 months of fighting with my autonomic nervous system imbalance noradrenaline started to drop and my adrenals started their long healing journey. If i didnt get a stupid infection i would probably be quite better by now but i am on a very unlucky strike lately.

Regarding PC like Phosphatidylserine, its a cortisol limiting and suppresing substance why would i take that? I need cortisol as much as i need water to live on at this time.

Vitamin C is good i know, i take 2 grams at the moment with or without bioflavs i will try to increase it in the future. Also concerned about my liver with all them vitamins i am ingesting.

Are you sure you had adrenal fatigue/low DHEA/low cort? Because adrenal fatigue can be due to any significant change in DHEA/cortisol ratio. It doesnt always imply low cortisol/dhea reserves. It may be due to high morning Cortisol low dhea reserves as well.

Dhea is interesting but because i took finasteride in the past i cant take this without medical supervision since i have developed chronic prostatitis. Yet 7-keto i also read its a better choice.

Im actually thinking of pregnenolone but dont know where to find a decent source of it, its not sold around here and i always wanna do something with a doctor knowing. I ve tried self medicating it was a mistake.

Hi. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Sounds like DHEA may help, but you really need to see a doc experienced with adrenal fatigue. Preg could help too.

Also, you may want to look into clonidine. I just started it, to reduce evening NE spikes.

Take care and get better.
J

 

[seanhysong]

oh, whoops my mistake:blink:

 

[jinxie]

oh, whoops my mistake:blink:

I would have said PS as well for evening NE spikes, interfering with sleep. If I take Cortef in the evening, it interferes with my sleep. I take PS, and it doesnt kill me. But I probably am not as fatigued as the initiator of this thread.

 

[solonjk]

Jinxie, you are really into it as i can see.
I visited one of the worlds top endocrinologists yesterday in Athens. Professor Chrousos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Chrousos

he is the only one who looked at my problem from a medical point of view and told me that apart from hydrocortisone, pregnenolone and dhea can help.

Problem is because i took an antibiotic during my very serious adrenal fatigue problems i got into further blowing my adrenals and spiking/depleting my cortisol levels and dhea started to get shunted into production of cortisol.

This further complication caused me severe side effects and taking hydrocortisone didnt help at that point since i already had a huge cortisol repsonse to the antibiotic. I probably needed pregnenolone at that time to rebalance all adrenal hormones or best needed to give my self some rest get over the antibiotic side effects and then retry helping my adrenals.

All my problems offcourse started from NE rise, since i suffered from overtraining (sympathetic type) and NE plasma levels where skyrocketing for months causing inflammations and depleting my adrenocortical response.

You might be right to take some PS at night but i dont want to do it at this point because, i am still trying to understand some mechanisms behind my side effects.

How did you know that your NE levels are the ones who cause you cortisol spikes? Maybe its adrenaline levels? Did you get plasma catecholamines tested or did some other sort of urine test??

Who is treating you??

 

[OldGator]

DHEA Supplement

Thinking of taking DHEA supplement but dont know alot of people who have taken it to get some feedback. Anyone pls help, will a DHEA supplementation help me revive my adrenals?

For what it's worth I had always tested on the low side of the Quest DHEA-S scale (25-240), usually between 65 - 80. I tried many different supps to increase DHEA from oral "DHEA Complete" by Life Extension to transdermal "Dermacrine" by PP. At best I got my DHEA-S to 105. About a month before my last blood test in February I found an old bottle of Get Diesel's "Raw Test" laying around so I decided to try it. Each tab contains DHEA 25mg, Pregnenolone 25 mg, some magnesium, avena sativa, and ginseng. I took 2 tabs a day as directed. That was the only change in my supps between blood tests. My DHEA-S blew up to 300!

Go figure. "Raw Test" is an old product that I don't think Get Diesel even makes anymore. In fact the last ones made have an expiration date of 12/07. The ingredients don't seem special, maybe it's some type of synergistic effect. But when I saw my DHEA #'s skyrocket I tracked down some more bottles (they are still available if you look) to stock up.

I'm not suggesting you go out and buy discontinued and expired supps, I'm just relaying my story. Then again, at just $17.95 a bottle maybe it's worth tracking one down. Will raising DHEA help your adrenals? I'm really not qualified to say.

 

[jinxie]

Jinxie, you are really into it as i can see.
I visited one of the worlds top endocrinologists yesterday in Athens. Professor Chrousos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Chrousos

he is the only one who looked at my problem from a medical point of view and told me that apart from hydrocortisone, pregnenolone and dhea can help.

Problem is because i took an antibiotic during my very serious adrenal fatigue problems i got into further blowing my adrenals and spiking/depleting my cortisol levels and dhea started to get shunted into production of cortisol.

This further complication caused me severe side effects and taking hydrocortisone didnt help at that point since i already had a huge cortisol repsonse to the antibiotic. I probably needed pregnenolone at that time to rebalance all adrenal hormones or best needed to give my self some rest get over the antibiotic side effects and then retry helping my adrenals.

All my problems offcourse started from NE rise, since i suffered from overtraining (sympathetic type) and NE plasma levels where skyrocketing for months causing inflammations and depleting my adrenocortical response.

You might be right to take some PS at night but i dont want to do it at this point because, i am still trying to understand some mechanisms behind my side effects.

How did you know that your NE levels are the ones who cause you cortisol spikes? Maybe its adrenaline levels? Did you get plasma catecholamines tested or did some other sort of urine test??

Who is treating you??

Solonjk are you the guy that is attending med school in Greece? I recall I guy on the boards suffering from similiar issues, with similar depth of knowledge.

I know of my elevated catecholamines from 24-hour urine. I dont think plasma is reliable except to exclude, because the sharp poke causes an adrenal response.

I know of elevated cortisol late at night from salivary cortisol -- midnight is way beyond range, and the highest of the day.

I have a delayed sleep onset disorder. And last at night, my pulse elevates. In fact, it's elevated most of the day, irrespective of stress levels, and when I exercise, it goes through the roof. Since being on TRT, I can lift again, but I still cant do meaningful cardio as my pulse is too fast. The clonidine has helped some, but I think I need to be on a higher dose. Seeing the cardiologist next week.

Who isn't treating me? I have quite a few doctors. I've seen Dr. Mariano.

Best,
J

 

[solonjk]

Its me. Doing saliva tests today because i think i have developed cortisol shunt (which is depleting my dhea levels) due to the antibiotic use. If this is the case then it will be explaining a lot of my issues and i hope i can heal some. I will then have to supplement with DHEA or preg (still looking for the proper company ,dose, type -pills/cream etc etc)

How was marianco? I think he is one of the best around isnt he?

I finally managed to visit a top endocrinologist here (should had seen him first day after being overtrained but my family thought it was just stress and it would go away- noone !! believed me, not even doctors who put me on diazepam for months and messed up my axis more and wanted to stick me in the psych clinic since they said that everything was normal and i was depressed and saliva tests and catecholamines where not understood by endos here.
13 months later in bed i can say i found someone whos knowledge is beyond anything i ve seen before.

George P. Chrousos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I keep advertising this guy but i swear he is THAT good when it comes to stress mechanisms and pathology/endocrinology in general. I dont know what the level of his understanding is regarding neurotransmitters-cytokine-hormone relationship but i guess it must be pretty high depending on the research he has done in the past.

Anyways, he told me that i have been suffering from a suppresion of my H-H-A axis and of the whole stress mechanism - low ACTH and cortisol- (not exactly identical to adrenal fatigue which can involve all zones of the adrenal cortex and has low blood pressure exhibiting issues- but it exhibits very similar and most symptoms of AF) involving most hormones of my adrenals apart from aldosterone, thats why aldosterone causes a rebound effect and retains Na+ in my body.
I go further on thinking that the antibiotic spiked my cortisol levels more and DHEA pathway got shunted towards sustaining enough cortisol production, thats why i cant recover or feel "right"

I will see from the saliva test soon. Then i will jump on DHEA/pregnenolone as Chrousos suggested. 13 months, 80 doctors visits, endless suffering and pain, hope this gets somewhere.

Regarding catecholamine levels---> you did very good to test in urine(actually you have a thorough testing done and i am surprised, few people do that so precise) but the most sensitive test is in serum catecholamine as i have read. Dont worry about the spiking due to injection and pinching because you can do it with a catheter.

If you cant do it in serum you can find a lab to do it in plasma- i will tell you how do it.

First lie down in a bed for 10-15 minutes relax and have a measurement of all needed hormones/neurotransmitters.

Then stand up and immediately take another blood measurement.

After standing up for 10-12 minutes take another measurement.

Then get on the running belt thing (like doing a cardio test) and run progressively for 10-12 minutes and reach up to and sustain at 50-60% V02 max for a few minutes (1-2). Take another meauserement after that. If you go up to your limits then there is going to be different hormone/neurotransmitter relationship and different findings.

Last do some chin ups if you can (10-15) two sets and measure again after you do it.

Only in the first case you lie down (supine)

This is apprxmately the best test to measure levels of catecholamines and some other neurotransmitters. If you have any sort of obvious problem then your noradrenaline levels when you have stood up for 10minutes will be skyrocketing. After running they should drop a bit, if you run to your limits they could/should rise again. Its a difficult test but it is very valuable to determine the proper source of adrenal problems.

Overtrained individuals can exhibit both rise in catecholamine levels or drop, or even rise in some and drop in others depending on the type of overtraining (sympa or parasympa). You can also determine that from measuring nocturnal catecholamine levels but in general urine tests are very inconsistent and they dont show the whole picture correctly, since noone knows under what state you where during the day of collecting the specimen.

Its good if you have some sort of serious pathology (tumors like pheocromocytoma and other weird ectopic adrenal masses and in general heavy and emergent adrenal issues)

Offcourse in your case maybe it was more than just enough to do urine tests (it is for most people) but i did plasma as well to find the differences in responses during supine/standing/exercising.

Regarding the upper post and "raw test". I heard that you need a ****load of dhea to see some difference and that could have some serious sides on your liver. Maybe the pregnenolone in the mixture along with dhea made the difference, maybe ginseng had something to do with it. I dont know, yet ginseng rises blood pressure- dont wanna do that- and gives me headache so i dont know if i can take it.

 

[OldGator]

And last at night, my pulse elevates. In fact, it's elevated most of the day, irrespective of stress levels, and when I exercise, it goes through the roof. Since being on TRT, I can lift again, but I still cant do meaningful cardio as my pulse is too fast. The clonidine has helped some, but I think I need to be on a higher dose. Seeing the cardiologist next week.Best, J

J,
Have you tried Lanoxin or Toprol XL? I used to have atrial fibrillation and my pulse rate was out of control also. Lanoxin and Toprol were precribed to slow down pulse and did the trick - pulse went from crazy high to just high. (Finally I had an a-fib ablation done here at Penn - and no more a-fib).
PM me if you like.

 

[jinxie]

J,
Have you tried Lanoxin or Toprol XL? I used to have atrial fibrillation and my pulse rate was out of control also. Lanoxin and Toprol were precribed to slow down pulse and did the trick - pulse went from crazy high to just high. (Finally I had an a-fib ablation done here at Penn - and no more a-fib).
PM me if you like.

Hey Gator. Thanks. I haven't tried anything other than the Clonidine. Initially, the cardiologist prescribed nothing, writing it off as anxiety. My neurologist dismissed that as ridiculous, saying that your pulse is not elevated 24/7 because of anxiety and certainly not while exercising. Thus, he put me on the Clonidine and told me to return to the cardiologist, who is very well regarded, and insist on further treatment, and to tell the cardiologist that he should call the neurologist if he continues to suggest that my elevated pulse is from anxiety.

I guess cardiologists are like many endos, and only treat the extremes. I'm 37 and if you look at my body (5'8", 172 lbs, 10-11% body fat, 31 inch waist), you would not expect my pulse to be running 150+ from walking 3.5 MPHs on a 7% incline, but it is. To me, that is extreme. But alas, I look healthier than most of his geriatric patients. Our medical system is a damn joke.

 

[jinxie]

Its me. Doing saliva tests today because i think i have developed cortisol shunt (which is depleting my dhea levels) due to the antibiotic use. If this is the case then it will be explaining a lot of my issues and i hope i can heal some. I will then have to supplement with DHEA or preg (still looking for the proper company ,dose, type -pills/cream etc etc)

How was marianco? I think he is one of the best around isnt he?

I finally managed to visit a top endocrinologist here (should had seen him first day after being overtrained but my family thought it was just stress and it would go away- noone !! believed me, not even doctors who put me on diazepam for months and messed up my axis more and wanted to stick me in the psych clinic since they said that everything was normal and i was depressed and saliva tests and catecholamines where not understood by endos here.
13 months later in bed i can say i found someone whos knowledge is beyond anything i ve seen before.

George P. Chrousos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I keep advertising this guy but i swear he is THAT good when it comes to stress mechanisms and pathology/endocrinology in general. I dont know what the level of his understanding is regarding neurotransmitters-cytokine-hormone relationship but i guess it must be pretty high depending on the research he has done in the past.

Anyways, he told me that i have been suffering from a suppresion of my H-H-A axis and of the whole stress mechanism - low ACTH and cortisol- (not exactly identical to adrenal fatigue which can involve all zones of the adrenal cortex and has low blood pressure exhibiting issues- but it exhibits very similar and most symptoms of AF) involving most hormones of my adrenals apart from aldosterone, thats why aldosterone causes a rebound effect and retains Na+ in my body.
I go further on thinking that the antibiotic spiked my cortisol levels more and DHEA pathway got shunted towards sustaining enough cortisol production, thats why i cant recover or feel "right"

I will see from the saliva test soon. Then i will jump on DHEA/pregnenolone as Chrousos suggested. 13 months, 80 doctors visits, endless suffering and pain, hope this gets somewhere.

Regarding catecholamine levels---> you did very good to test in urine(actually you have a thorough testing done and i am surprised, few people do that so precise) but the most sensitive test is in serum catecholamine as i have read. Dont worry about the spiking due to injection and pinching because you can do it with a catheter.

If you cant do it in serum you can find a lab to do it in plasma- i will tell you how do it.

First lie down in a bed for 10-15 minutes relax and have a measurement of all needed hormones/neurotransmitters.

Then stand up and immediately take another blood measurement.

After standing up for 10-12 minutes take another measurement.

Then get on the running belt thing (like doing a cardio test) and run progressively for 10-12 minutes and reach up to and sustain at 50-60% V02 max for a few minutes (1-2). Take another meauserement after that. If you go up to your limits then there is going to be different hormone/neurotransmitter relationship and different findings.

Last do some chin ups if you can (10-15) two sets and measure again after you do it.

Only in the first case you lie down (supine)

This is apprxmately the best test to measure levels of catecholamines and some other neurotransmitters. If you have any sort of obvious problem then your noradrenaline levels when you have stood up for 10minutes will be skyrocketing. After running they should drop a bit, if you run to your limits they could/should rise again. Its a difficult test but it is very valuable to determine the proper source of adrenal problems.

Overtrained individuals can exhibit both rise in catecholamine levels or drop, or even rise in some and drop in others depending on the type of overtraining (sympa or parasympa). You can also determine that from measuring nocturnal catecholamine levels but in general urine tests are very inconsistent and they dont show the whole picture correctly, since noone knows under what state you where during the day of collecting the specimen.

Its good if you have some sort of serious pathology (tumors like pheocromocytoma and other weird ectopic adrenal masses and in general heavy and emergent adrenal issues)

Offcourse in your case maybe it was more than just enough to do urine tests (it is for most people) but i did plasma as well to find the differences in responses during supine/standing/exercising.

Regarding the upper post and "raw test". I heard that you need a ****load of dhea to see some difference and that could have some serious sides on your liver. Maybe the pregnenolone in the mixture along with dhea made the difference, maybe ginseng had something to do with it. I dont know, yet ginseng rises blood pressure- dont wanna do that- and gives me headache so i dont know if i can take it.

You're ahead of the game, if you can get this kind of testing done. Quest can barely get the blood drawn right. And they cant follow any kind of special instruction. I have to get blood drawn for aldosterone, and I'm sure they will screw it up. They lost 1/2 my urine once (3.5 l), and insisted that they didn't. And they also have mishandled several of my serum labs, requiring re-tests. They are of questionable competence, and Lab Corps is even worse, in my experience.

My catech. serum came back slightly elevated, as did metanephrines, but they didnt use a cath. I asked them to, and they said only a doctor can do that. Welcome to health care in the good old USA.

 

[thundergod]

i dont usually post but since ive had a lot of the same problems and know how helpless you can feel in that situation ill tell you what worked for me.

And last but definitely no least, yes i would recommend dhea. DHEA is also an adrenal hormone so, although im no expert on dhea, it will help replenish your body's natural store of dhea. the basic recommended amount is about 50g/day split in two doses (morning and afternoon). Make sure there isnt any calcium carbonate in it as well. Just look for plain "dhea" on the label.
Also whatch out for side effects like acne, excess facial hair, and whatnot. If you experience anything like that you can either lower the dose to about 10-25g/day or switch to 7-keto dhea. 7-keto dhea has pretty much most, if not all, of the positives without any negative side effects.

Well there you go. Thats what worked well for me. If you follow the above the only thing you have to worry about is getting a solid nights rest. if sleep is a problem i would highly recommend some ZMA stacked with a little valerian/ melatonin(~3-5g should do the trick).
Anyhow please dont be too skeptical as Ive been in your shoes and had no idea what to do. I even tried the licorice and whatnot. Got nothing from it. Just try the protocol out. It should help. Youve got nothing to lose and a hell of a lot to gain.

Good Luck:wave:

I hope those dosages were a typo! I've never heard of anyone taking 50 grams of dhea per day! I think you meant 50 MG. Milligrams = big difference! Also 3-5 grams of melatonin---NO WAY!!! 3 milligrams is recommended.

 

[jinxie]

I hope those dosages were a typo! I've never heard of anyone taking 50 grams of dhea per day! I think you meant 50 MG. Milligrams = big difference! Also 3-5 grams of melatonin---NO WAY!!! 3 milligrams is recommended.

Thus the side effect warning: "Also whatch out for side effects like acne, excess facial hair, and whatnot."

As you inferred, he clearly meant MGs.

Has anyone experienced good results from ZMA? I take Zinc and a lotta magnesium as I have a myofascial pain syndrome, as well as sleep issues. I'm wondering if there is any compelling reason to use ZMA instead. I assume not.

 

[adrenal_blast]

Some suggestions..

I have serious adrenal fatigue issues.
Its been on for a yr now.
Last 3 weeks cant get out of bed for more than a couple of hours.

Something else, do you think a major antidepressant would help? I think that my noradrenaline receptors after so manymonths into overtraining are so upregulated that a slightest stimulation blasts my adrenals badly.

Some thoughts..

For serious adrenal exhaustion kidney transplants may help but it is really a last option (india?).

Reducing stress by using stimulants (while artificially keeping ACTH low and cortisol normal may help)
[stimulants + pain killers (addiction!)] maybe useful, just read about JFF Kennedy and his addison's disease treatment).

You cannot combat adrenal exhaustion with supplements and there is lots of snake oil around there.

Suggestions:

Panax gingseng increases ACTH and is some kind of stimulant? SSRIs (safe? addiction?), histamines etc too
while doing this try to keep keep ACTH low:
maybe melatonin, statins, some smarter ways to prevent ACTH response from stimulants (pain killers??)

If your adrenals are really weak then you should probably avoid any stimulants. In this case taking Zyprexa 5mg
or something similar to lower ACTH may help but I recommend gradual titration of the dose upwards and
this is really the very last thing one should try to use.

 

[The Matrix]

Some thoughts..

For serious adrenal exhaustion kidney transplants may help but it is really a last option (india?).

Reducing stress by using stimulants (while artificially keeping ACTH low and cortisol normal may help)
[stimulants + pain killers (addiction!)] maybe useful, just read about JFF Kennedy and his addison's disease treatment).

You cannot combat adrenal exhaustion with supplements and there is lots of snake oil around there.

Suggestions:

Panax gingseng increases ACTH and is some kind of stimulant? SSRIs (safe? addiction?), histamines etc too
while doing this try to keep keep ACTH low:
maybe melatonin, statins, some smarter ways to prevent ACTH response from stimulants (pain killers??)

If your adrenals are really weak then you should probably avoid any stimulants. In this case taking Zyprexa 5mg
or something similar to lower ACTH may help but I recommend gradual titration of the dose upwards and
this is really the very last thing one should try to use.

You are little late their buddy LOL..