Normal T, low Free T, High SHBG - TRT or not?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Weight loss is prob the best option you have to normilize many function in your body.
    Hmm, potassium regulates water retension..can this be a problem?
    Have you tried a water pill?
    Here 's something:
    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

    Thoughts?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Here 's something:
    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

    Thoughts?
    Their is a gene called ACE which I see a lot.of.people have who have this issue.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Here 's something:
    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

    Thoughts?
    Their is a gene called ACE which I see a lot.of.people have who have this issue.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Their is a gene called ACE which I see a lot.of.people have who have this issue.
    You mean the serum ACE which is a lab test? My last result was 62 which is high normal.

    My renin and aldosterone is super low as is sodium. Thoughts?

    MTHFR is associated with HTN:
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22237773

  5. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Here 's something:
    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

    Thoughts?
    Let me ask you this, how high is your blood pressure?
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    You mean the serum ACE which is a lab test? My last result was 62 which is high normal.

    My renin and aldosterone is super low as is sodium. Thoughts?

    MTHFR is associated with HTN:
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22237773
    How low is sodium below 134?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Let me ask you this, how high is your blood pressure?
    Yesterday - a.m.: 148/95
    p.m. (3h pwo): 125/81

  8. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    How low is sodium below 134?
    No, actually serum was 137 which is normal; sodium urine was low: 32 - ref range: 40-220

  9. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Yesterday - a.m.: 148/95
    p.m. (3h pwo): 125/81
    That's up there
    How is your level of magnesium?
    Do you get muscle spasms?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    That's up there
    How is your level of magnesium?
    Do you get muscle spasms?
    Serum Mg is in the mid-range. Never notice spasms.

    OSA can also cause HTN as well. Like I said, I was dx'd with a mild form of OSA. I also have the MTHFR mutation which is associated with HTN as well. Double whammy. I was trying mag citrate but it gave me the runs. I am going to switch to mag glycinate.

    I actually think the fish oil helps keep BP down. It was after I stopped it and started measuring it that I noticed it was higher than usual. I resumed my dosage and now my mid-day and evening reading are much lower. Vigorous training, especially cardio, will lower it as well.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Serum Mg is in the mid-range. Never notice spasms.

    OSA can also cause HTN as well. Like I said, I was dx'd with a mild form of OSA. I also have the MTHFR mutation which is associated with HTN as well. Double whammy. I was trying mag citrate but it gave me the runs. I am going to switch to mag glycinate.

    I actually think the fish oil helps keep BP down. It was after I stopped it and started measuring it that I noticed it was higher than usual. I resumed my dosage and now my mid-day and evening reading are much lower. Vigorous training, especially cardio, will lower it as well.
    Maybe try hawthornberry. It does seem to help with blood pressure a bit.
    Mag citrate may too concentrated.
    Interesting about the fish oil.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Maybe try hawthornberry. It does seem to help with blood pressure a bit.
    Mag citrate may too concentrated.
    Interesting about the fish oil.
    I take about 5g a hawthorn daily and still awake with HTN. Not for sure on the FO unless I stop it again and measure readings.

    BP just keeps increasing for no apparent reason. Nothing is working in combination or separate (arginine, hawthorn, fish oil, magnesium, GABA, etc.). For the last 3 years I have been able to keep it in check using one or more of these as an alternative to meds. The only thing I haven't tried is incorporating a bit more carbs to see if that makes any difference. Reducing salt intake does nothing.

    Cardio is the only thing that brings it down but it's only temporary and goes back up within 4-5 hours after.

    May need to go to last resort - meds.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I take about 5g a hawthorn daily and still awake with HTN. Not for sure on the FO unless I stop it again and measure readings.

    BP just keeps increasing for no apparent reason. Nothing is working in combination or separate (arginine, hawthorn, fish oil, magnesium, GABA, etc.). For the last 3 years I have been able to keep it in check using one or more of these as an alternative to meds. The only thing I haven't tried is incorporating a bit more carbs to see if that makes any difference. Reducing salt intake does nothing.

    Cardio is the only thing that brings it down but it's only temporary and goes back up within 4-5 hours after.

    May need to go to last resort - meds.
    Ok,
    Have you looked into the blood being too thick, high cholesterol particle count, tried taking a baby aspirin a day to thin out the blood or donating some blood and see if that makes a difference?

    I mean it could be genetic but if you can do something to avoid meds it's well worth it. I heard those BP meds are down right nasty.

    One more thing, magnesium should be checked in the cell not the serum in the blood. Appearently, magnesium in the cell is much better way to check it's level. Make sure that's ok, everywhere I read blood pressure increase could be the body's way of trying to fix a problem of magnesium deficiency. I might be wrong but it's worth a shot.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Ok,
    Have you looked into the blood being too thick, high cholesterol particle count, tried taking a baby aspirin a day to thin out the blood or donating some blood and see if that makes a difference?

    I mean it could be genetic but if you can do something to avoid meds it's well worth it. I heard those BP meds are down right nasty.
    I had two blood clots last year (most likely due to too much T3) so I am very familiar with fibrinogen level as well as all the lipid issue. I do take aspirin and many other natural thinners like ginkgo, FO, garlic, etc. At first I thought it was the higher SFAs from eating paleo foods like butter and coconut oil, but that has never been proven. The only things I can think of is what I mentioned before:

    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP - solution would be to increase carbs, but not enough to undo ketosis and cause IR.

    Genetic methylation defect that is associated with HTN - of which I carry the gene - solution: natural and/or pharmaceutical hypotensives.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I had two blood clots last year (most likely due to too much T3) so I am very familiar with fibrinogen level as well as all the lipid issue. I do take aspirin and many other natural thinners like ginkgo, FO, garlic, etc. At first I thought it was the higher SFAs from eating paleo foods like butter and coconut oil, but that has never been proven. The only things I can think of is what I mentioned before:

    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP - solution would be to increase carbs, but not enough to undo ketosis and cause IR.

    Genetic methylation defect that is associated with HTN - of which I carry the gene - solution: natural and/or pharmaceutical hypotensives.
    hmm, seems like you tried everything. It's frustrating to do everything right and still no results.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    hmm, seems like you tried everything. It's frustrating to do everything right and still no results.
    Correct the expressions in the pathways would be the next thing to do..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Correct the expressions in the pathways would be the next thing to do..
    can you be more specific?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    can you be more specific?
    One could do a full days lecture on it..You can not put the complexity in a few paragraphs be impossible. Be like trying to explain on how to do open heart surgery..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Correct the expressions in the pathways would be the next thing to do..
    I'd say you right, it's just an arduous process to get to the bottom of the problem though. Food plays a crucial role in how the body behaves.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    can you be more specific?
    I think at this point the best thing for you to do and this is just a suggestion if it was me, I'd lower body fat to around 10% or as close to that as your body will allow it even if it means to do a cycle of low test and other supps to get to that point. Once that's accomplished then see where everything stands like BP, cholesterol, insulin resistance, liver etc. and look at further steps you can take to normilize it.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I think at this point the best thing for you to do and this is just a suggestion if it was me, I'd lower body fat to around 10% or as close to that as your body will allow it even if it means to do a cycle of low test and other supps to get to that point. Once that's accomplished then see where everything stands like BP, cholesterol, insulin resistance, liver etc. and look at further steps you can take to normilize it.
    Man, I can only hope it would be that simple. I have been trying like hell to get my bf down for the last 3 years naturally and I think that anything over 18% bf is a huge factor in causing these problems. I am about 22% now.

    My doc agrees with you that most of these maladies will ameliorate with TRT and CPAP (or something similar) to resolve my obstructive sleep apnea. I was recently (about 4.5 years ago) able to drop both weight by 20 lbs and bf% to 15% before (and I was not eating keto, paleo or doing IF, and was NOT taking any thyroid meds) but was physically active during the day and slept pretty well. I still could not lose that insulin resistant fat around my midsection though.

    The doc wrote me a script for a CPAP sleep alternative (nasal EPAP), 200mg test cyp w/ 100mg deca IM. As far as HGH, I will probably be on my own because my IGF-1 will mostly likely show high normal (200-250). For anti-aging (not longevity) though I always heard 300-400. Doc also wrote me a scrip for TD clonidine (patch) which transiently suppresses cortisol and increases GH, not bad sides! I've taken it before for a few days when I was stressed or had a bout of high BP. Only bad sides: dry mouth, sleepiness.
    anabolicminds.com/forum/advanced-discussion-dr/189971-clonidine.html

    I just have been paranoid of shooting T all this time because of:

    - HPTA feedback suppression
    - increased BP
    - decreased thyroid output
    - increased DHT = hair loss
    - increased water retention
    - increased E2 (aromatization)
    - testicular atrophy


    And rHGH has its own set of sides (CTS, insulin resistance, water retention, headaches, etc.).

    As to a T cycle, since I have a tendency toward estrogen dominance, don't you think an AI would be in order? And to prevent feedback suppression, HCG?

    Thoughts?

    Just curious - what are your thoughts on the following AAS stacks:
    - trenbolone
    - masteron
    - primabolin
    - equipoise

    You mentioned the very effective peptide, IGF1-lr3, a few posts back. What were your experiences, both positive and negative? What did you stack it with and what would you recommend? What are the main differences between it and straight IGF?


    Thanks for your input!

  22. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I think at this point the best thing for you to do and this is just a suggestion if it was me, I'd lower body fat to around 10% or as close to that as your body will allow it even if it means to do a cycle of low test and other supps to get to that point. Once that's accomplished then see where everything stands like BP, cholesterol, insulin resistance, liver etc. and look at further steps you can take to normilize it.
    I have determined that my liver is fine. It was too much exogenous thyroid hormone (T3) that causes a rise in SHBG which then bound up my Free Test (and E2).

    Given that, I've done everything I can.

    Getting back to doing the T cycle combo, since I have a tendency toward estrogen dominance, don't you think an AI would be in order? And to prevent feedback suppression, HCG?

    What are your thoughts about running test e instead of cyp? I hear it causes less water retention, but you're not as strong.

    And Just curious - what are your thoughts on the following AAS stacks:
    - trenbolone
    - masteron
    - primabolin
    - equipoise


    You mentioned the very effective peptide, IGF1-lr3, a few posts back. What were your experiences, both positive and negative? What did you stack it with and what would you recommend? What are the main differences between it and straight IGF?

  23. Good work in determining what was the issue with SHBG. THe point is that taking T3 in that high dosage I just dont see the benefit. Im from the old school in using as little as possible to get results and more is not better type a deal. In any case, going to to the AI scenario..yes I would always use an AI while taking test. It could be very little but since one injection will spike E2 an AI is in order.
    Test E and test cyp is basically the same. In theory Test cyp is weaker on paper but in reality both the same.
    Well...primo is the best, few sides if any no bloat nice slow clean gains. Masteron is next basically the same as primo except DHT is an issue. EQ is good, mild a good addition to a test cycle instead of deca. Tren is the strongest compound I know. Very strong with too many sides to list.

    IGF lr3 stays in your system longer than IGF and It's a double edge sword. It makes cells multiply and grow. Good for muscle but if you prone to cancer IGF is the last thing you want to do.IGFlr3 can be done alone or with GH as a bridge between anabolic cycles.
    Gains are not quickly noticeable, but if you use it for a few years on and off I will say that it def grows new muscle cells which given time to mature will grow. But then again there are other genetic factors involved too such as how well nutrients get to the cells and how are being utilized.
    Not to get off subject, what im noticing about some of the top bodybuilders today is that they will have a decent run for a few years and then they are gone once they take a break and try to come back. Im assuming that there is some kind of damage done from using all these compounds all the time without a real break. Anyway is just an observation.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Good work in determining what was the issue with SHBG. THe point is that taking T3 in that high dosage I just dont see the benefit. Im from the old school in using as little as possible to get results and more is not better type a deal. In any case, going to to the AI scenario..yes I would always use an AI while taking test. It could be very little but since one injection will spike E2 an AI is in order.
    Test E and test cyp is basically the same. In theory Test cyp is weaker on paper but in reality both the same.
    Well...primo is the best, few sides if any no bloat nice slow clean gains. Masteron is next basically the same as primo except DHT is an issue. EQ is good, mild a good addition to a test cycle instead of deca. Tren is the strongest compound I know. Very strong with too many sides to list.

    IGF lr3 stays in your system longer than IGF and It's a double edge sword. It makes cells multiply and grow. Good for muscle but if you prone to cancer IGF is the last thing you want to do.IGFlr3 can be done alone or with GH as a bridge between anabolic cycles.
    Gains are not quickly noticeable, but if you use it for a few years on and off I will say that it def grows new muscle cells which given time to mature will grow. But then again there are other genetic factors involved too such as how well nutrients get to the cells and how are being utilized.
    Not to get off subject, what im noticing about some of the top bodybuilders today is that they will have a decent run for a few years and then they are gone once they take a break and try to come back. Im assuming that there is some kind of damage done from using all these compounds all the time without a real break. Anyway is just an observation.
    Thanks for getting back. As age plays a factor in declining hormones in my case (I am 53), I really need to address the fact that even though my low free T may come back by now keeping at a lower dose of T3, it may never come back fully to what it was before T3 therapy. You agree?

    I mean, how can I lean out and build mass when free T is so low (last level 11.90) even though natural Total T is mid-range (500s). And even with Total T, can one expect to make huge gains in the mid-500s? I don't think so. I am therefore arguing a case for TRT here (I've tried to do everyone stay off it and do it natural), weighing in on the sides vs. benefits. As far as sides like hair loss, I've already pretty much maxed out on that at my age according to research - and did something about by getting my hair transplanted. Transplanted hair is supposed to be resistant to the effects of DHT.

    As for reducing the other sides of TRT, polycythemia can be managed by therapeutic phlebotomy, high blood pressure from excess E2 is managed by an AI, and HPTA suppression, by Clomid or HCG. Water retention/bloat? I'm assuming an AI will help since much of that is from excess estrogen.

    The thing some of my friends have noticed is that TRT increases appetite. I'm thinking this is due to increased protein synthesis. I know GH will do the same.

    There only a handful of exceptions to the rule that most BBers have a decent run and then blow out from abuse of AAS/PEDs. And how do we know those guys aren't still using one or more things even then.

    My doc has written me a scrip for cyp and deca, but I'm not so sure I want to always have the deca; I'd rather run them separate

    Lastly, do you see any benefit to perhaps running some other peptides as a cycle in between HGH in addition to IGF1lr3 such as mod-GRF, GHRP-2/GHRP-6 and frag?

  25. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Thanks for getting back. As age plays a factor in declining hormones in my case (I am 53), I really need to address the fact that even though my low free T may come back by now keeping at a lower dose of T3, it may never come back fully to what it was before T3 therapy. You agree?

    Not really. From experience T3 doesnt produce permanent damage. Once stopped body will adjust back to it's initial ranges.

    I mean, how can I lean out and build mass when free T is so low (last level 11.90) even though natural Total T is mid-range (500s). And even with Total T, can one expect to make huge gains in the mid-500s? I don't think so. I am therefore arguing a case for TRT here (I've tried to do everyone stay off it and do it natural), weighing in on the sides vs. benefits. As far as sides like hair loss, I've already pretty much maxed out on that at my age according to research - and did something about by getting my hair transplanted. Transplanted hair is supposed to be resistant to the effects of DHT.

    I dont see any issues with you being on TRT at this age. DHT I was talking about prostate. I will be honest teststerone will help in many way but body fat will still need to be addressed through diet.
    As for reducing the other sides of TRT, polycythemia can be managed by therapeutic phlebotomy, high blood pressure from excess E2 is managed by an AI, and HPTA suppression, by Clomid or HCG. Water retention/bloat? I'm assuming an AI will help since much of that is from excess estrogen.

    The thing some of my friends have noticed is that TRT increases appetite. I'm thinking this is due to increased protein synthesis. I know GH will do the same.

    There only a handful of exceptions to the rule that most BBers have a decent run and then blow out from abuse of AAS/PEDs. And how do we know those guys aren't still using one or more things even then.

    [B]This would not apply to you. Dosage would be much lower in your case. I was just stating an observation
    My doc has written me a scrip for cyp and deca, but I'm not so sure I want to always have the deca; I'd rather run them separate
    No, you dont want to run deca by itself. Always with test or just run test alone but never deca alone. Kills sex drive.
    Lastly, do you see any benefit to perhaps running some other peptides as a cycle in between HGH in addition to IGF1lr3 such as mod-GRF, GHRP-2/GHRP-6 and frag?
    No. Just run GH at the full peptide spectrum. GH should be run for 6-12 months at the time anyway with IGF thrown in there for 30-45 days at the time.
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