Normal T, low Free T, High SHBG - TRT or not?

[The Matrix]

Just one testosterone injection can mess up your cholesterol level:
(cut & paste link)
ergo-log.com/justonetestosteroneinjection.html

Thoughts?

If there is a medical necessity fine, or you can start looking out side factors dealing with hormones to the GI, liver, thyroid, adrenals, and immune system as well as neurotransmitters.

 

[mcs5309]

Why i suggested 23andme test. There is an app.which was designed for looking at the 23andme test designed by a doctor and his wife who have an autistic son. I am actually working on their sons case probono. there are excepted to be 1-2 million people.getting the app at 12 bucks a pop. Do the.math..not asking for one.red cent..Once I balance their son which should not be difficult..word spreads quickly. I am.already doing genetic research which will potential save thousands of.life by getting the information out there. This will.make.hrt which is a great advancement.in.medicine look like minuscule. By doing 23andme you will see why you have NASH then corrected at source. By looking at the genetic snps you will also be finding out which supplements will compatible to your body and one causing potential harm. I have done a few hundred of these reports it will not be hard to isolate where the imbalances. You are probably asking who is this smuck? LOL. I have been asked to speak at upcoming conference with the best in the field of methylation in the United States.

METHYLATION ANALYSIS (already knew I had MTHFR C677T):
Question: This is good as Yasko's?

Gene & Variation	rsID	Alleles	Result
COMT V158M	rs4680	GG	-/-
COMT H62H	rs4633	CC	-/-
COMT P199P	rs769224	GG	-/-
VDR Bsm	rs1544410	CT	+/-
VDR Taq	rs731236	AG	+/-
VDR Fok-I	not found	n/a	n/a
MAO A R297R	rs6323	T	+
ACAT1-02	rs3741049	GG	-/-
MTHFR C677T	rs1801133	AA	+/+
MTHFR 03 P39P	rs2066470	GG	-/-
MTHFR A1298C	rs1801131	TT	-/-
MTR A2756G	rs1805087	AG	+/-
MTRR A66G	rs1801394	AA	-/-
MTRR H595Y	rs10380	CC	-/-
MTRR K350A	rs162036	AA	-/-
MTRR R415T	rs2287780	CC	-/-
MTRR S257T	not found	n/a	n/a
MTRR A664A	rs1802059	AA	+/+
BHMT-01	not found	n/a	n/a
BHMT-02	rs567754	CT	+/-
BHMT-04	rs617219	AC	+/-
BHMT-08	rs651852	CT	+/-
AHCY-01	rs819147	TT	-/-
AHCY-02	rs819134	AA	-/-
AHCY-19	rs819171	TT	-/-
CBS C699T	rs234706	AG	+/-
CBS A360A	rs1801181	GG	-/-
CBS N212N	rs2298758	GG	-/-
SUOX S370S	not found	n/a	n/a
NOS3 D298E	not found	n/a	n/a
SHMT1 C1420T	rs1979277	GG	-/-

DETOX PROFILE

Gene & Variation	rsID	Alleles	Result
CYP1A1*2C A4889G	rs1048943	TT	-/-
CYP1A1 m3 T3205C	rs4986883	TT	-/-
CYP1A1 C2453A	rs1799814	GG	-/-
CYP1A2 164A>C	rs762551	AA	-/-
CYP1B1 L432V	rs1056836	CG	+/-
CYP1B1 N453S	rs1800440	TT	-/-
CYP1B1 R48G	rs10012	GG	-/-
CYP2A6*2 1799T>A	rs1801272	AA	-/-
CYP2A6*20	rs28399444	II	-/-
CYP2C9*2 C430T	rs1799853	CC	-/-
CYP2C9*3 A1075C	rs1057910	AC	+/-
CYP2C19*17	rs12248560	CT	+/-
CYP2D6 S486T	rs1135840	CG	+/-
CYP2D6 100C>T	rs1065852	GG	-/-
CYP2D6 2850C>T	rs16947	AG	+/-
CYP2E1*1B 9896C>G	rs2070676	CC	-/-
CYP2E1*1B 10023G>A	rs55897648	GG	-/-
CYP2E1*4 4768G>A	rs6413419	GG	-/-
CYP3A4*1B	rs2740574	TT	-/-
CYP3A4*2 S222P	rs55785340	AA	-/-
CYP3A4*3 M445T	rs4986910	AA	-/-
CYP3A4*16 T185S	rs12721627	GG	-/-
GSTP1 I105V	rs1695	AG	+/-
GSTP1 A114V	rs1138272	CC	-/-
SOD2 A16V	rs4880	AG	+/-
NAT1 R187Q	rs4986782	GG	-/-
NAT1 R64W	rs1805158	CC	-/-
NAT2 I114T	rs1801280	CT	+/-
NAT2 R197Q	rs1799930	GG	-/-
NAT2 G286E	rs1799931	GG	-/-
NAT2 R64Q	rs1801279	GG	-/-
NAT2 K268R	rs1208	AG	+/-

 

[The Matrix]

I intepret 23andme for.Md.and.psychiatrists. Nutragenomics has been a huge part of my practice. An App coming out will do over 250.genetic snps and will be offered through 23andme. A lot.of.my.research is.incorporated.into.that app along with a few.other.people. I am.actually training doctors.on how.to use these results.in their practice which is having a profound effect on how they are treating their patient to.get a better therapeutic out come. I have conference coming up in.New Orleans and in talks. of.going.to Australia for 3 -4 course to teach medical professionals. It has helped a lot of.younger guys to be able to.come.off trt more.successful. I am currently working with Dr Mullan on some cases which is Amy yasko colleague you is Co writing her book. Amy has done a wonderful job in getting genetic on the forefront. Her test was the first of its kind. Now 23andme has over 900,000 SNPS vs 30- 40 on yasko panel. Each week I am pulling up new information to add to the growing data base of genetic research. When it comes to genetic I am very well respected in the field..

 

[vassille]

I have been eating clean since my early 20s and stopped drinking any alcohol for good. I did eat more carbs and fruits, but the carbs were always complex, never simple. I had cut all processed foods out as well. Prior to my 20s, I ate crap. It wasn't until early last year that I went VLC paleo and then later, keto, and then after learning that fructose (even naturally-occurring in fruit) can contribute to fatty liver, cut down on fruits to the point I now only eat a handful of berries every so often and only after a meal.
What I cannot understand is how I could have developed fatty liver and IR from eating clean carbs and whole fruits (not fruit juices). That doesn't happen in a healthy person. Research shows a direct link to hypothyroidism and IR as a possible cause.

Another recent finding: Most people are way too high in n-6 FAs. I am too high in n-3 FAs from supplementation. Since you've researched inflammation, I'm assuming it is just as bad to have too much n-3s as n-6s and alone may contribute to inflammation.

Omega 6 is not a new thing. But I suppose you can over do it with Omega 3 too. Important thing is to lower the 6 and thus reduce inflamation.

Clean carbs =glucose
bad carbs=glucose
THe difference is release rates! THat's it. End result is the same.
I can tell you that I only eat on an high carb day 75g on a low carb day less than 50g.
THat's all I need.
So clean carbs vs dirty carbs is useless in this equation, quantity matters more than anything else.
It will take a while to fix some of the cellular damage but unfortunately you need to avoid complex and simple carbs for a while anyway. Stick with meat, fat and vegetables possible slightly less than maintenance. Anabolics I found to do nothing against this issue of insulin resistance.

Rule of thumb about suplementation is that once in a while is good to stop taking everything for a month or so for issues like this of over supplementation.

Problem I see with the liver is that many times the liver dumps fats into the blood stream for one reason or another,then if the body doesnt use it goes back into the liver again. But at the same time there is more fat to be dumped so at this point it is possible the liver gets overwhelmed and just starts to store it in an attempt to solve this problem.
Also, when the cells have problem using fat to make atp, it is sometimes related to thyroid function or just too much fat in the blood and enough reason to make ATP.

 

[mcs5309]

Stick with meat, fat and vegetables possible slightly less than maintenance.

That is all I have been doing. I agree with your assessment of going VLC, like <50g daily. In fact, I'm probably well under that, just getting incidental carbs from veggies and buts/seeds and a small helping of berries. The most I will "splurge" is when I will consume no more than 50g a day. I really need to stay under that to avoid triggering IR/LR.

Also, VLC/paleo is known to purge the liver of FFAs, thus the transient increase in LDL. My LDL numbers have actually improved since June of last year after being on VLC/paleo almost a year now.

As far as being at a deficit from maintenance, that is the very one thing I have not been able to determine: just what is "maintenance", as most of the online RMR calculators say I'm at about 1500. That means in order to lose weight AND bf, I have to be at a deficit of that by what, 200-300 cals? Or do I take my deficit from a different number like TDEE which is about 2500.

Or should I just pick a number, eat that much, and measure actual results at the end of a 3 week period? If I lost 3 pounds, then I am eating at a 500 calorie deficit. If I lost 1.5 pounds, I am at a 250 cal deficit, and so on. Despite all my blaming my hypothyroidism for storing bf, it still all comes down to the olde argument of cals in/cal out.

The only caveat: less food intake = body thinks it's in starvation mode = rT3 spikes = slower metabolism = less fat burned.

Protein is key to retaining lean body mass while eating at a deficit so I want to make sure to keep it up. But what should be enough to maintain anabolism and not too much to again get into trouble with an excess that will convert to glucose via gluconeogenesis?

Keto means as much as 75% fat, 20% protein, and 5% carbs, but with such little food intake, that's nowhere near enough protein for those of us that train 3-4x's a week. That means that if I want to be under maintenance my macros should look like this:

60% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs
1200 cals
Pro: 105g
Fat: 80g
CHO: 15g

There is no way I can bulk even clean at this point and not add unhealthy amounts of bodyfat. Remember, I'm not a big massive guy at 5-7, 175 - with 22% of that weight being fat! I need to recomp to half that bf which mean I should be no more than about 150-155 max. I must do a cut, but not at the expense of LBM - and that's where a anabolic cycle as you had suggested would I believe help - that and keeping protein intake no less than moderate, deriving my energy from healthy fats. Once I get to 10-11% bf, I can then do a clean bulk of say 8-10 lbs, rinse and repeat.

Sound doable?

 

[vassille]

Yes your reasoning is sound. THe fact is that when doing a low carb diet fat intake can be higher if the calorie expanditure requires it BUT protein at that point needs to be around 75g per day. Could be a little more but what happens on a high fat diet protein seems to do more with less. Too much protein and the body will start glucogenesis. So if you active by all means eat more fat.
You will not lose muscle mass if you dont eat x amount of protein, dont worry. You can also take 25 T3 during this cycle.
To be honest im not too concerned about calories that much. Eat 3 meals a day to start consisting of meat/fat/veggies and see what happens. THe important thing is to eat the same everyday so you can make adjustments to the diet if need it. If it's too much food cut down a bit or add another meal if you active that day.
Dont bulk just lose body fat for now.

Isulin resistance is a pain in the butt to fix, it will take time and perseverance.

 

[The Matrix]

Correcting gi tract corrects blood sugar metabolism

 

[mcs5309]

Yes your reasoning is sound. THe fact is that when doing a low carb diet fat intake can be higher if the calorie expanditure requires it BUT protein at that point needs to be around 75g per day. Could be a little more but what happens on a high fat diet protein seems to do more with less. Too much protein and the body will start glucogenesis. So if you active by all means eat more fat.
You will not lose muscle mass if you dont eat x amount of protein, dont worry. You can also take 25 T3 during this cycle.
To be honest im not too concerned about calories that much. Eat 3 meals a day to start consisting of meat/fat/veggies and see what happens. THe important thing is to eat the same everyday so you can make adjustments to the diet if need it. If it's too much food cut down a bit or add another meal if you active that day.
Dont bulk just lose body fat for now.

Isulin resistance is a pain in the butt to fix, it will take time and perseverance.

I actually only eat 2 meals a day because I fast 18-20 hrs. until late afternoon about 30-45 following my workouts, so not enough time to get in 3 meals. Here's a revised daily avg. macro plan. Yes, there is a protein-sparing effect with LCHF (low-carb high-fat). Let me know what you think:

70% fat, 25% protein, 5% carbs
1300 cals
Pro: 81g
Fat: 101g
CHO: 16g

Again, the only worry is whether the body thinking it's in starvation mode from less calories from carbs will down-regulate its metabolism and burn less fat. Hopefully, the T3 & the fat will offset that possibility.

 

[vassille]

I actually only eat 2 meals a day because I fast 18-20 hrs. until late afternoon about 30-45 following my workouts, so not enough time to get in 3 meals. Here's a revised daily avg. macro plan. Yes, there is a protein-sparing effect with LCHF (low-carb high-fat). Let me know what you think:

70% fat, 25% protein, 5% carbs
1300 cals
Pro: 81g
Fat: 101g
CHO: 16g

Again, the only worry is whether the body thinking it's in starvation mode from less calories from carbs will down-regulate its metabolism and burn less fat. Hopefully, the T3 & the fat will offset that possibility.

I think you worry is valid in regards to starvation mode. My fasting is usually only 12 hours. I suggest that you would go to 3 meals a day one being sometimes in the morning, 2nd in the afternoon, 3rd after the gym. So let's say from 7PM to 7Am that would be 12 hour overnight fast. Doing it like this would spare muscle since you taking t3 and avoid the starvation mode signaling.
THe food breakdown is fine. Once on anabolics the more you workout the hungrier you will get that's why is wise to keep your test levels within range or slightly elevated past 1000 and do not workout with very heavy weights.
For the goal you are chasing to lose weight and body fat, 100mg of test a week is more than enough along with 25 T3.

 

[mcs5309]

I think you worry is valid in regards to starvation mode. My fasting is usually only 12 hours. I suggest that you would go to 3 meals a day one being sometimes in the morning, 2nd in the afternoon, 3rd after the gym. So let's say from 7PM to 7Am that would be 12 hour overnight fast. Doing it like this would spare muscle since you taking t3 and avoid the starvation mode signaling.
THe food breakdown is fine. Once on anabolics the more you workout the hungrier you will get that's why is wise to keep your test levels within range or slightly elevated past 1000 and do not workout with very heavy weights.
For the goal you are chasing to lose weight and body fat, 100mg of test a week is more than enough along with 25 T3.

The whole practice of IF and the leangains 16/8 regimen in particular is to train fasted around 12pm or so with BCAAs only (to prevent catabolism) and then eat your first meal at 1pm. Or, in my case, pushing the fat-burning even farther by doing a 20/4 regimen. I can eat the same amount of calories in two meal as in 3 by adding slightly bigger portions. I would think that would prevent starvation mode?
Why not train heavy?

 

[vassille]

The whole practice of IF and the leangains 16/8 regimen in particular is to train fasted around 12pm or so with BCAAs only (to prevent catabolism) and then eat your first meal at 1pm. Or, in my case, pushing the fat-burning even farther by doing a 20/4 regimen. I can eat the same amount of calories in two meal as in 3 by adding slightly bigger portions. I would think that would prevent starvation mode?
Why not train heavy?

If you think the diet you currently employ works then stick with it. I was under the impression that is not working. I dont know if you current diet prevents starvation mode or works for you, everybody is different.
As for the heavy training, I never train heavy while trying to lose weight/fat. It incrases the chances of geting injured and also promotes higher food intake to cope with the recovery. The goal is not to get bigger on this diet but rather the opposite.

 

[mcs5309]

If you think the diet you currently employ works then stick with it. I was under the impression that is not working. I dont know if you current diet prevents starvation mode or works for you, everybody is different.
As for the heavy training, I never train heavy while trying to lose weight/fat. It incrases the chances of geting injured and also promotes higher food intake to cope with the recovery. The goal is not to get bigger on this diet but rather the opposite.

I'm in a tough spot; I've got too much bf, but not enough lean mass. Kind of a skinny fat situation. Training heavy while IFing has led to a shoulder injury and has further limited my routine, so you're assessment is correct. IFing at least keeps my calories under control.

On an even more discouraging note, no matter how hard I train and eat clean, etc., I look like I did nothing. I cannot understand what the problem is. Eating very little carbs now for the last year, I started to drop weight and fat, but I seem to have hit a plateau where my body seems to have become "comfortable" and I cannot lose weight/fat. It seems that the only way I'm going to get anywhere is to do T, GH, and whatever else to burn fat and build mass. My 20s was the last decade in which working out, diet and supps made any difference. :wtf:

 

[vassille]

I'm in a tough spot; I've got too much bf, but not enough lean mass. Kind of a skinny fat situation. Training heavy while IFing has led to a shoulder injury and has further limited my routine, so you're assessment is correct. IFing at least keeps my calories under control.

On an even more discouraging note, no matter how hard I train and eat clean, etc., I look like I did nothing. I cannot understand what the problem is. Eating very little carbs now for the last year, I started to drop weight and fat, but I seem to have hit a plateau where my body seems to have become "comfortable" and I cannot lose weight/fat. It seems that the only way I'm going to get anywhere is to do T, GH, and whatever else to burn fat and build mass. My 20s was the last decade in which working out, diet and supps made any difference. :wtf:

Dont be discouraged keep trying and you will find something that will work for you. My inclination towards your situation is to mantain what muscle mass you have and concentrate on fat loss. If you need test, gh, t3 then go for it for 3-4 months run and see what happens. I'd say that once a week I would add some carbs to your diet maybe a patatoe, fruit to shake things up. Call it a splurge meal if you want.
Your routine should keep lifting weights the same where you get a good workout but not too heavy where recovery takes more than 7 days.
It doesnt matter how much weight you lift, point is to not push too hard and get hurt.

 

[mcs5309]

Dont be discouraged keep trying and you will find something that will work for you. My inclination towards your situation is to mantain what muscle mass you have and concentrate on fat loss. If you need test, gh, t3 then go for it for 3-4 months run and see what happens. I'd say that once a week I would add some carbs to your diet maybe a patatoe, fruit to shake things up. Call it a splurge meal if you want.
Your routine should keep lifting weights the same where you get a good workout but not too heavy where recovery takes more than 7 days.
It doesnt matter how much weight you lift, point is to not push too hard and get hurt.

Morning BP is going though the roof without any known cause. Wonder if my recent stopping the omega 3's could be a factor. Any thoughts?

 

[vassille]

Morning BP is going though the roof without any known cause. Wonder if my recent stopping the omega 3's could be a factor. Any thoughts?

That's a tough one and if I had to take a stab at it would be poor sleep. Also the entire methabolic syndrome causes high BP but if I were you look into sleep. Very important factor in this equation.
Higher body fat may be a the cause of poor sleep, but without checking is hard to say but is a good candidate. Poor sleep affect hormones too, so it's like a cascade.
Dont think omega 3 has anything to do with it that I know of

 

[mcs5309]

That's a tough one and if I had to take a stab at it would be poor sleep. Also the entire methabolic syndrome causes high BP but if I were you look into sleep. Very important factor in this equation.
Higher body fat may be a the cause of poor sleep, but without checking is hard to say but is a good candidate. Poor sleep affect hormones too, so it's like a cascade.
Dont think omega 3 has anything to do with it that I know of

You must be reading my medical history!

I did a sleep study which showed mild OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) + I am getting sleepy an hour after my first meal even though little or no carbs. Lack of sleep = low GH and T = imbalanced body composition! If it wasn't for my doc urging me to do a sleep study, I would have never known.

GH itself is required to improve endothelial function + it improves blood pressure via NO pathway.

Poor hormone synthesis from sleep dysregulation + IR/LR (insulin/leptin resistance) which is part of metabolic syndrome, and, yep, there's the perfect storm for my body harboring unwanted bf and not enough lean mass! People with OSA have some of the lowest levels of growth hormone measured and this helps partially explain why most of them have body composition issues. Without supplementation, my DHEA-S level is also usually depressed.

But if my IGF-1 level was 203 (which was elevated), that would indicate plenty of GH, wouldn't it? How else to measure GH level? Stimulation test?

Also - same issue with total T vs. free T. Some say ignore free T, it's the total that's tells us more physiologically, whereas other say it's the free T that is the key one because it's what is bioavailable for function such as fat loss, lean mass, etc.

My last TT was 623, but I had less free T than a 90-year old man! In addition, to build muscle, study shows we need a TT to be around 1000. There's no way I'm, going to achieve this unless I'm doing TRT or a cycle.

Thoughts?

 

[The Matrix]

You must be reading my medical history!

I did a sleep study which showed mild OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) + I am getting sleepy an hour after my first meal even though little or no carbs. Lack of sleep = low GH and T = imbalanced body composition! If it wasn't for my doc urging me to do a sleep study, I would have never known.

GH itself is required to improve endothelial function + it improves blood pressure via NO pathway.

Poor hormone synthesis from sleep dysregulation + IR/LR (insulin/leptin resistance) which is part of metabolic syndrome, and, yep, there's the perfect storm for my body harboring unwanted bf and not enough lean mass! People with OSA have some of the lowest levels of growth hormone measured and this helps partially explain why most of them have body composition issues. Without supplementation, my DHEA-S level is also usually depressed.

But if my IGF-1 level was 203 (which was elevated), that would indicate plenty of GH, wouldn't it? How else to measure GH level? Stimulation test?

Also - same issue with total T vs. free T. Some say ignore free T, it's the total that's tells us more physiologically, whereas other say it's the free T that is the key one because it's what is bioavailable for function such as fat loss, lean mass, etc.

My last TT was 623, but I had less free T than a 90-year old man! In addition, to build muscle, study shows we need a TT to be around 1000. There's no way I'm, going to achieve this unless I'm doing TRT or a cycle.

Thoughts?

Not unless you are no turning igf-1 to GH why it crucial n these cases to get Rhein 24 hour urine done.
SHBG elevated need to have pathology ruled out as it may be a sign of something much worse which TRT will only mask.

 

[The Matrix]

23andme does not look too bad, but I see a lot of issues which need addressing. I bet you have issues with internalizing stress, might have had some ADDHD growing up. or may be your children may be having these issues ? Very few people know how to decipher these results.

 

[mcs5309]

Not unless you are no turning igf-1 to GH why it crucial n these cases to get Rhein 24 hour urine done.
SHBG elevated need to have pathology ruled out as it may be a sign of something much worse which TRT will only mask.

Thought that was the case with IGF-1. I have never done the Rhein. I did Meridian's a couple years ago:

HGH: 1931 - REF RANGE: 1065-4722
TESTOSTERONE: 42.3 REF RANGE: 20-200

I have low sodium.

Do you think Rhein is more accurate?

 

[mcs5309]

23andme does not look too bad, but I see a lot of issues which need addressing. I bet you have issues with internalizing stress, might have had some ADDHD growing up. or may be your children may be having these issues ? Very few people know how to decipher these results.

I am already on a methylation protocol for MTHFR. What else do you see? Internalizing stress? Yes. ADHD? No. Have no kids to worry about.

 

[The Matrix]

I am already on a methylation protocol for MTHFR. What else do you see? Internalizing stress? Yes. ADHD? No. Have no kids to worry about.

Need.to address.other issues first before doing methylation. Why protocols back fire.

 

[vassille]

You must be reading my medical history!

I did a sleep study which showed mild OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) + I am getting sleepy an hour after my first meal even though little or no carbs. Lack of sleep = low GH and T = imbalanced body composition! If it wasn't for my doc urging me to do a sleep study, I would have never known.

GH itself is required to improve endothelial function + it improves blood pressure via NO pathway.

Poor hormone synthesis from sleep dysregulation + IR/LR (insulin/leptin resistance) which is part of metabolic syndrome, and, yep, there's the perfect storm for my body harboring unwanted bf and not enough lean mass! People with OSA have some of the lowest levels of growth hormone measured and this helps partially explain why most of them have body composition issues. Without supplementation, my DHEA-S level is also usually depressed.

But if my IGF-1 level was 203 (which was elevated), that would indicate plenty of GH, wouldn't it? How else to measure GH level? Stimulation test?

Also - same issue with total T vs. free T. Some say ignore free T, it's the total that's tells us more physiologically, whereas other say it's the free T that is the key one because it's what is bioavailable for function such as fat loss, lean mass, etc.

My last TT was 623, but I had less free T than a 90-year old man! In addition, to build muscle, study shows we need a TT to be around 1000. There's no way I'm, going to achieve this unless I'm doing TRT or a cycle.

Thoughts?

Haha I have done extensive research on these subjects which started with my love for bodybuilding. The health and bodybuilding sort of morphed into one as I've got older. I always liked to know why and how things happen a certain way.
Honestly GH is a small part of the entire process. THere are many more hormones produced in the body while sleeping. Like I've mentioned in other posts Gh doesnt really burn fat contrary to popular belief. If you have sleep problems I'd get a hold of a machine that forces air into your nose while sleeping so you can actually get a good night sleep.Personally I wouldnt go crazy trying to keep measuring GH.
Case and point, when I was heavier my sleep was poor due to poor breathing. I used to always be tired, nap all the time. Upon losing 20 lbs my sleep is great, I dream again, and I wake up rested and feeling great.
I'd say free T is just as important as total T. Both play an important role. Normal total T and low Free T points to problems. Something along the way is robbing your free T from circulation. Usually is SHBG which it seems to point to something wrong with liver inflamation.

In your case I would try very hard to lose weight any way you can even if you have to lower your calories and increase physical activity a bit. I would predict that most of the issues you have will slowly go away and hormones may return to normal upon weight loss. Trying to treat every hormon individually is a long road.

If you want to cycle and push the process along I think in your case is a viable option. You can also do without but it wont be as easy.

 

[mcs5309]

Haha I have done extensive research on these subjects which started with my love for bodybuilding. The health and bodybuilding sort of morphed into one as I've got older. I always liked to know why and how things happen a certain way.
Honestly GH is a small part of the entire process. THere are many more hormones produced in the body while sleeping. Like I've mentioned in other posts Gh doesnt really burn fat contrary to popular belief. If you have sleep problems I'd get a hold of a machine that forces air into your nose while sleeping so you can actually get a good night sleep.Personally I wouldnt go crazy trying to keep measuring GH.
Case and point, when I was heavier my sleep was poor due to poor breathing. I used to always be tired, nap all the time. Upon losing 20 lbs my sleep is great, I dream again, and I wake up rested and feeling great.
I'd say free T is just as important as total T. Both play an important role. Normal total T and low Free T points to problems. Something along the way is robbing your free T from circulation. Usually is SHBG which it seems to point to something wrong with liver inflamation.

In your case I would try very hard to lose weight any way you can even if you have to lower your calories and increase physical activity a bit. I would predict that most of the issues you have will slowly go away and hormones may return to normal upon weight loss. Trying to treat every hormon individually is a long road.

If you want to cycle and push the process along I think in your case is a viable option. You can also do without but it wont be as easy.

Chronic inflammation has been at the root of most of these issues including body comp. The problem is that we can't determine the source(s) of the inflammation. Too much thyroid hormone is one - and is what I believed caused the latest bout of inflammation. Disrupted sleep is another. There are many. I know I have REM because I dream.

BP was worse in a.m. None of my usual concoctions worked (Arginine AKG, mag citrate, hawthorne, etc.).
Then took about 7g potassium citrate which seems to have reduced it nearly 20pts on both systolic and diastolic. This would indicate an electrolyte imbalance. Eating lots of protein also causes my system to become very acidic. Potassium is the only thing to bring it more alkaline. Increased fat (especially SFAs) I read can cause vasoconstriction which would increase BP, but that's part of the Paleo diet.

On a side note, new study shows that lifting heavy does not induce hypertrophy any differently than lifting lighter:
jap.physiology.org/content/early/2012/04/12/japplphysiol.00307.2012.abstract

 

[vassille]

Chronic inflammation has been at the root of most of these issues including body comp. The problem is that we can't determine the source(s) of the inflammation. Too much thyroid hormone is one - and is what I believed caused the latest bout of inflammation. Disrupted sleep is another. There are many. I know I have REM because I dream.

BP was worse in a.m. None of my usual concoctions worked (Arginine AKG, mag citrate, hawthorne, etc.).
Then took about 7g potassium citrate which seems to have reduced it nearly 20pts on both systolic and diastolic. This would indicate an electrolyte imbalance. Eating lots of protein also causes my system to become very acidic. Potassium is the only thing to bring it more alkaline. Increased fat (especially SFAs) I read can cause vasoconstriction which would increase BP, but that's part of the Paleo diet.

On a side note, new study shows that lifting heavy does not induce hypertrophy any differently than lifting lighter:
jap.physiology.org/content/early/2012/04/12/japplphysiol.00307.2012.abstract

Weight loss is prob the best option you have to normilize many function in your body.
Hmm, potassium regulates water retension..can this be a problem?
Have you tried a water pill?

 

[mcs5309]

Weight loss is prob the best option you have to normilize many function in your body.
Hmm, potassium regulates water retension..can this be a problem?
Have you tried a water pill?

My sodium is already low so I don't know if a diuretic would help. I was taking a special celery seed extract, but ran out a few weeks ago. Most diuretics change the ratio of sodium to potassium in the blood and as a result dangerous side effects can occur. In contrast, celery seed extract acts as a diuretic but does not change the ratio of sodium to potassium in the blood.

Also, being on Paleo, my diet contains less potassium because I limit fruits.

Compound that with a high protein diet and my acidity doubles. So far, potassium is the only supplement that eliminates that.

 

[mcs5309]

Weight loss is prob the best option you have to normilize many function in your body.
Hmm, potassium regulates water retension..can this be a problem?
Have you tried a water pill?

Here 's something:
VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

Thoughts?

 

[The Matrix]

Here 's something:
VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

Thoughts?

Their is a gene called ACE which I see a lot.of.people have who have this issue.

 

[The Matrix]

Here 's something:
VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

Thoughts?

Their is a gene called ACE which I see a lot.of.people have who have this issue.

 

[mcs5309]

Their is a gene called ACE which I see a lot.of.people have who have this issue.

You mean the serum ACE which is a lab test? My last result was 62 which is high normal.

My renin and aldosterone is super low as is sodium. Thoughts?

MTHFR is associated with HTN:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22237773

 

[vassille]

Here 's something:
VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

Thoughts?

Let me ask you this, how high is your blood pressure?

 

[vassille]

You mean the serum ACE which is a lab test? My last result was 62 which is high normal.

My renin and aldosterone is super low as is sodium. Thoughts?

MTHFR is associated with HTN:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22237773

How low is sodium below 134?

 

[mcs5309]

Let me ask you this, how high is your blood pressure?

Yesterday - a.m.: 148/95
p.m. (3h pwo): 125/81

 

[mcs5309]

How low is sodium below 134?

No, actually serum was 137 which is normal; sodium urine was low: 32 - ref range: 40-220

 

[vassille]

Yesterday - a.m.: 148/95
p.m. (3h pwo): 125/81

That's up there
How is your level of magnesium?
Do you get muscle spasms?

 

[mcs5309]

That's up there
How is your level of magnesium?
Do you get muscle spasms?

Serum Mg is in the mid-range. Never notice spasms.

OSA can also cause HTN as well. Like I said, I was dx'd with a mild form of OSA. I also have the MTHFR mutation which is associated with HTN as well. Double whammy. I was trying mag citrate but it gave me the runs. I am going to switch to mag glycinate.

I actually think the fish oil helps keep BP down. It was after I stopped it and started measuring it that I noticed it was higher than usual. I resumed my dosage and now my mid-day and evening reading are much lower. Vigorous training, especially cardio, will lower it as well.

 

[vassille]

Serum Mg is in the mid-range. Never notice spasms.

OSA can also cause HTN as well. Like I said, I was dx'd with a mild form of OSA. I also have the MTHFR mutation which is associated with HTN as well. Double whammy. I was trying mag citrate but it gave me the runs. I am going to switch to mag glycinate.

I actually think the fish oil helps keep BP down. It was after I stopped it and started measuring it that I noticed it was higher than usual. I resumed my dosage and now my mid-day and evening reading are much lower. Vigorous training, especially cardio, will lower it as well.

Maybe try hawthornberry. It does seem to help with blood pressure a bit.
Mag citrate may too concentrated.
Interesting about the fish oil.

 

[mcs5309]

Maybe try hawthornberry. It does seem to help with blood pressure a bit.
Mag citrate may too concentrated.
Interesting about the fish oil.

I take about 5g a hawthorn daily and still awake with HTN. Not for sure on the FO unless I stop it again and measure readings.

BP just keeps increasing for no apparent reason. Nothing is working in combination or separate (arginine, hawthorn, fish oil, magnesium, GABA, etc.). For the last 3 years I have been able to keep it in check using one or more of these as an alternative to meds. The only thing I haven't tried is incorporating a bit more carbs to see if that makes any difference. Reducing salt intake does nothing.

Cardio is the only thing that brings it down but it's only temporary and goes back up within 4-5 hours after.

May need to go to last resort - meds.

 

[vassille]

I take about 5g a hawthorn daily and still awake with HTN. Not for sure on the FO unless I stop it again and measure readings.

BP just keeps increasing for no apparent reason. Nothing is working in combination or separate (arginine, hawthorn, fish oil, magnesium, GABA, etc.). For the last 3 years I have been able to keep it in check using one or more of these as an alternative to meds. The only thing I haven't tried is incorporating a bit more carbs to see if that makes any difference. Reducing salt intake does nothing.

Cardio is the only thing that brings it down but it's only temporary and goes back up within 4-5 hours after.

May need to go to last resort - meds.

Ok,
Have you looked into the blood being too thick, high cholesterol particle count, tried taking a baby aspirin a day to thin out the blood or donating some blood and see if that makes a difference?

I mean it could be genetic but if you can do something to avoid meds it's well worth it. I heard those BP meds are down right nasty.

One more thing, magnesium should be checked in the cell not the serum in the blood. Appearently, magnesium in the cell is much better way to check it's level. Make sure that's ok, everywhere I read blood pressure increase could be the body's way of trying to fix a problem of magnesium deficiency. I might be wrong but it's worth a shot.

 

[mcs5309]

Ok,
Have you looked into the blood being too thick, high cholesterol particle count, tried taking a baby aspirin a day to thin out the blood or donating some blood and see if that makes a difference?

I mean it could be genetic but if you can do something to avoid meds it's well worth it. I heard those BP meds are down right nasty.

I had two blood clots last year (most likely due to too much T3) so I am very familiar with fibrinogen level as well as all the lipid issue. I do take aspirin and many other natural thinners like ginkgo, FO, garlic, etc. At first I thought it was the higher SFAs from eating paleo foods like butter and coconut oil, but that has never been proven. The only things I can think of is what I mentioned before:

VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP - solution would be to increase carbs, but not enough to undo ketosis and cause IR.

Genetic methylation defect that is associated with HTN - of which I carry the gene - solution: natural and/or pharmaceutical hypotensives.

 

[vassille]

I had two blood clots last year (most likely due to too much T3) so I am very familiar with fibrinogen level as well as all the lipid issue. I do take aspirin and many other natural thinners like ginkgo, FO, garlic, etc. At first I thought it was the higher SFAs from eating paleo foods like butter and coconut oil, but that has never been proven. The only things I can think of is what I mentioned before:

VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP - solution would be to increase carbs, but not enough to undo ketosis and cause IR.

Genetic methylation defect that is associated with HTN - of which I carry the gene - solution: natural and/or pharmaceutical hypotensives.

hmm, seems like you tried everything. It's frustrating to do everything right and still no results.

 

[The Matrix]

hmm, seems like you tried everything. It's frustrating to do everything right and still no results.

Correct the expressions in the pathways would be the next thing to do..

 

[mcs5309]

Correct the expressions in the pathways would be the next thing to do..

can you be more specific?

 

[The Matrix]

can you be more specific?

One could do a full days lecture on it..You can not put the complexity in a few paragraphs be impossible. Be like trying to explain on how to do open heart surgery..

 

[vassille]

Correct the expressions in the pathways would be the next thing to do..

I'd say you right, it's just an arduous process to get to the bottom of the problem though. Food plays a crucial role in how the body behaves.

 

[vassille]

can you be more specific?

I think at this point the best thing for you to do and this is just a suggestion if it was me, I'd lower body fat to around 10% or as close to that as your body will allow it even if it means to do a cycle of low test and other supps to get to that point. Once that's accomplished then see where everything stands like BP, cholesterol, insulin resistance, liver etc. and look at further steps you can take to normilize it.

 

[mcs5309]

I think at this point the best thing for you to do and this is just a suggestion if it was me, I'd lower body fat to around 10% or as close to that as your body will allow it even if it means to do a cycle of low test and other supps to get to that point. Once that's accomplished then see where everything stands like BP, cholesterol, insulin resistance, liver etc. and look at further steps you can take to normilize it.

Man, I can only hope it would be that simple. I have been trying like hell to get my bf down for the last 3 years naturally and I think that anything over 18% bf is a huge factor in causing these problems. I am about 22% now.

My doc agrees with you that most of these maladies will ameliorate with TRT and CPAP (or something similar) to resolve my obstructive sleep apnea. I was recently (about 4.5 years ago) able to drop both weight by 20 lbs and bf% to 15% before (and I was not eating keto, paleo or doing IF, and was NOT taking any thyroid meds) but was physically active during the day and slept pretty well. I still could not lose that insulin resistant fat around my midsection though.

The doc wrote me a script for a CPAP sleep alternative (nasal EPAP), 200mg test cyp w/ 100mg deca IM. As far as HGH, I will probably be on my own because my IGF-1 will mostly likely show high normal (200-250). For anti-aging (not longevity) though I always heard 300-400. Doc also wrote me a scrip for TD clonidine (patch) which transiently suppresses cortisol and increases GH, not bad sides! I've taken it before for a few days when I was stressed or had a bout of high BP. Only bad sides: dry mouth, sleepiness.
anabolicminds.com/forum/advanced-discussion-dr/189971-clonidine.html

I just have been paranoid of shooting T all this time because of:

- HPTA feedback suppression
- increased BP
- decreased thyroid output
- increased DHT = hair loss
- increased water retention
- increased E2 (aromatization)
- testicular atrophy

And rHGH has its own set of sides (CTS, insulin resistance, water retention, headaches, etc.).

As to a T cycle, since I have a tendency toward estrogen dominance, don't you think an AI would be in order? And to prevent feedback suppression, HCG?

Thoughts?

Just curious - what are your thoughts on the following AAS stacks:
- trenbolone
- masteron
- primabolin
- equipoise

You mentioned the very effective peptide, IGF1-lr3, a few posts back. What were your experiences, both positive and negative? What did you stack it with and what would you recommend? What are the main differences between it and straight IGF?


Thanks for your input!

 

[mcs5309]

I think at this point the best thing for you to do and this is just a suggestion if it was me, I'd lower body fat to around 10% or as close to that as your body will allow it even if it means to do a cycle of low test and other supps to get to that point. Once that's accomplished then see where everything stands like BP, cholesterol, insulin resistance, liver etc. and look at further steps you can take to normilize it.

I have determined that my liver is fine. It was too much exogenous thyroid hormone (T3) that causes a rise in SHBG which then bound up my Free Test (and E2).

Given that, I've done everything I can.

Getting back to doing the T cycle combo, since I have a tendency toward estrogen dominance, don't you think an AI would be in order? And to prevent feedback suppression, HCG?

What are your thoughts about running test e instead of cyp? I hear it causes less water retention, but you're not as strong.

And Just curious - what are your thoughts on the following AAS stacks:
- trenbolone
- masteron
- primabolin
- equipoise

You mentioned the very effective peptide, IGF1-lr3, a few posts back. What were your experiences, both positive and negative? What did you stack it with and what would you recommend? What are the main differences between it and straight IGF?

 

[vassille]

Good work in determining what was the issue with SHBG. THe point is that taking T3 in that high dosage I just dont see the benefit. Im from the old school in using as little as possible to get results and more is not better type a deal. In any case, going to to the AI scenario..yes I would always use an AI while taking test. It could be very little but since one injection will spike E2 an AI is in order.
Test E and test cyp is basically the same. In theory Test cyp is weaker on paper but in reality both the same.
Well...primo is the best, few sides if any no bloat nice slow clean gains. Masteron is next basically the same as primo except DHT is an issue. EQ is good, mild a good addition to a test cycle instead of deca. Tren is the strongest compound I know. Very strong with too many sides to list.

IGF lr3 stays in your system longer than IGF and It's a double edge sword. It makes cells multiply and grow. Good for muscle but if you prone to cancer IGF is the last thing you want to do.IGFlr3 can be done alone or with GH as a bridge between anabolic cycles.
Gains are not quickly noticeable, but if you use it for a few years on and off I will say that it def grows new muscle cells which given time to mature will grow. But then again there are other genetic factors involved too such as how well nutrients get to the cells and how are being utilized.
Not to get off subject, what im noticing about some of the top bodybuilders today is that they will have a decent run for a few years and then they are gone once they take a break and try to come back. Im assuming that there is some kind of damage done from using all these compounds all the time without a real break. Anyway is just an observation.

 

[mcs5309]

Good work in determining what was the issue with SHBG. THe point is that taking T3 in that high dosage I just dont see the benefit. Im from the old school in using as little as possible to get results and more is not better type a deal. In any case, going to to the AI scenario..yes I would always use an AI while taking test. It could be very little but since one injection will spike E2 an AI is in order.
Test E and test cyp is basically the same. In theory Test cyp is weaker on paper but in reality both the same.
Well...primo is the best, few sides if any no bloat nice slow clean gains. Masteron is next basically the same as primo except DHT is an issue. EQ is good, mild a good addition to a test cycle instead of deca. Tren is the strongest compound I know. Very strong with too many sides to list.

IGF lr3 stays in your system longer than IGF and It's a double edge sword. It makes cells multiply and grow. Good for muscle but if you prone to cancer IGF is the last thing you want to do.IGFlr3 can be done alone or with GH as a bridge between anabolic cycles.
Gains are not quickly noticeable, but if you use it for a few years on and off I will say that it def grows new muscle cells which given time to mature will grow. But then again there are other genetic factors involved too such as how well nutrients get to the cells and how are being utilized.
Not to get off subject, what im noticing about some of the top bodybuilders today is that they will have a decent run for a few years and then they are gone once they take a break and try to come back. Im assuming that there is some kind of damage done from using all these compounds all the time without a real break. Anyway is just an observation.

Thanks for getting back. As age plays a factor in declining hormones in my case (I am 53), I really need to address the fact that even though my low free T may come back by now keeping at a lower dose of T3, it may never come back fully to what it was before T3 therapy. You agree?

I mean, how can I lean out and build mass when free T is so low (last level 11.90) even though natural Total T is mid-range (500s). And even with Total T, can one expect to make huge gains in the mid-500s? I don't think so. I am therefore arguing a case for TRT here (I've tried to do everyone stay off it and do it natural), weighing in on the sides vs. benefits. As far as sides like hair loss, I've already pretty much maxed out on that at my age according to research - and did something about by getting my hair transplanted. Transplanted hair is supposed to be resistant to the effects of DHT.

As for reducing the other sides of TRT, polycythemia can be managed by therapeutic phlebotomy, high blood pressure from excess E2 is managed by an AI, and HPTA suppression, by Clomid or HCG. Water retention/bloat? I'm assuming an AI will help since much of that is from excess estrogen.

The thing some of my friends have noticed is that TRT increases appetite. I'm thinking this is due to increased protein synthesis. I know GH will do the same.

There only a handful of exceptions to the rule that most BBers have a decent run and then blow out from abuse of AAS/PEDs. And how do we know those guys aren't still using one or more things even then.

My doc has written me a scrip for cyp and deca, but I'm not so sure I want to always have the deca; I'd rather run them separate

Lastly, do you see any benefit to perhaps running some other peptides as a cycle in between HGH in addition to IGF1lr3 such as mod-GRF, GHRP-2/GHRP-6 and frag?

 

[vassille]

Thanks for getting back. As age plays a factor in declining hormones in my case (I am 53), I really need to address the fact that even though my low free T may come back by now keeping at a lower dose of T3, it may never come back fully to what it was before T3 therapy. You agree?

Not really. From experience T3 doesnt produce permanent damage. Once stopped body will adjust back to it's initial ranges.

I mean, how can I lean out and build mass when free T is so low (last level 11.90) even though natural Total T is mid-range (500s). And even with Total T, can one expect to make huge gains in the mid-500s? I don't think so. I am therefore arguing a case for TRT here (I've tried to do everyone stay off it and do it natural), weighing in on the sides vs. benefits. As far as sides like hair loss, I've already pretty much maxed out on that at my age according to research - and did something about by getting my hair transplanted. Transplanted hair is supposed to be resistant to the effects of DHT.

I dont see any issues with you being on TRT at this age. DHT I was talking about prostate. I will be honest teststerone will help in many way but body fat will still need to be addressed through diet.
As for reducing the other sides of TRT, polycythemia can be managed by therapeutic phlebotomy, high blood pressure from excess E2 is managed by an AI, and HPTA suppression, by Clomid or HCG. Water retention/bloat? I'm assuming an AI will help since much of that is from excess estrogen.

The thing some of my friends have noticed is that TRT increases appetite. I'm thinking this is due to increased protein synthesis. I know GH will do the same.

There only a handful of exceptions to the rule that most BBers have a decent run and then blow out from abuse of AAS/PEDs. And how do we know those guys aren't still using one or more things even then.

[B]This would not apply to you. Dosage would be much lower in your case. I was just stating an observation
My doc has written me a scrip for cyp and deca, but I'm not so sure I want to always have the deca; I'd rather run them separate
No, you dont want to run deca by itself. Always with test or just run test alone but never deca alone. Kills sex drive.
Lastly, do you see any benefit to perhaps running some other peptides as a cycle in between HGH in addition to IGF1lr3 such as mod-GRF, GHRP-2/GHRP-6 and frag?

No. Just run GH at the full peptide spectrum. GH should be run for 6-12 months at the time anyway with IGF thrown in there for 30-45 days at the time.