Normal T, low Free T, High SHBG - TRT or not?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    The whole practice of IF and the leangains 16/8 regimen in particular is to train fasted around 12pm or so with BCAAs only (to prevent catabolism) and then eat your first meal at 1pm. Or, in my case, pushing the fat-burning even farther by doing a 20/4 regimen. I can eat the same amount of calories in two meal as in 3 by adding slightly bigger portions. I would think that would prevent starvation mode?
    Why not train heavy?
    If you think the diet you currently employ works then stick with it. I was under the impression that is not working. I dont know if you current diet prevents starvation mode or works for you, everybody is different.
    As for the heavy training, I never train heavy while trying to lose weight/fat. It incrases the chances of geting injured and also promotes higher food intake to cope with the recovery. The goal is not to get bigger on this diet but rather the opposite.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    If you think the diet you currently employ works then stick with it. I was under the impression that is not working. I dont know if you current diet prevents starvation mode or works for you, everybody is different.
    As for the heavy training, I never train heavy while trying to lose weight/fat. It incrases the chances of geting injured and also promotes higher food intake to cope with the recovery. The goal is not to get bigger on this diet but rather the opposite.
    I'm in a tough spot; I've got too much bf, but not enough lean mass. Kind of a skinny fat situation. Training heavy while IFing has led to a shoulder injury and has further limited my routine, so you're assessment is correct. IFing at least keeps my calories under control.

    On an even more discouraging note, no matter how hard I train and eat clean, etc., I look like I did nothing. I cannot understand what the problem is. Eating very little carbs now for the last year, I started to drop weight and fat, but I seem to have hit a plateau where my body seems to have become "comfortable" and I cannot lose weight/fat. It seems that the only way I'm going to get anywhere is to do T, GH, and whatever else to burn fat and build mass. My 20s was the last decade in which working out, diet and supps made any difference.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I'm in a tough spot; I've got too much bf, but not enough lean mass. Kind of a skinny fat situation. Training heavy while IFing has led to a shoulder injury and has further limited my routine, so you're assessment is correct. IFing at least keeps my calories under control.

    On an even more discouraging note, no matter how hard I train and eat clean, etc., I look like I did nothing. I cannot understand what the problem is. Eating very little carbs now for the last year, I started to drop weight and fat, but I seem to have hit a plateau where my body seems to have become "comfortable" and I cannot lose weight/fat. It seems that the only way I'm going to get anywhere is to do T, GH, and whatever else to burn fat and build mass. My 20s was the last decade in which working out, diet and supps made any difference.
    Dont be discouraged keep trying and you will find something that will work for you. My inclination towards your situation is to mantain what muscle mass you have and concentrate on fat loss. If you need test, gh, t3 then go for it for 3-4 months run and see what happens. I'd say that once a week I would add some carbs to your diet maybe a patatoe, fruit to shake things up. Call it a splurge meal if you want.
    Your routine should keep lifting weights the same where you get a good workout but not too heavy where recovery takes more than 7 days.
    It doesnt matter how much weight you lift, point is to not push too hard and get hurt.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Dont be discouraged keep trying and you will find something that will work for you. My inclination towards your situation is to mantain what muscle mass you have and concentrate on fat loss. If you need test, gh, t3 then go for it for 3-4 months run and see what happens. I'd say that once a week I would add some carbs to your diet maybe a patatoe, fruit to shake things up. Call it a splurge meal if you want.
    Your routine should keep lifting weights the same where you get a good workout but not too heavy where recovery takes more than 7 days.
    It doesnt matter how much weight you lift, point is to not push too hard and get hurt.
    Morning BP is going though the roof without any known cause. Wonder if my recent stopping the omega 3's could be a factor. Any thoughts?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Morning BP is going though the roof without any known cause. Wonder if my recent stopping the omega 3's could be a factor. Any thoughts?
    That's a tough one and if I had to take a stab at it would be poor sleep. Also the entire methabolic syndrome causes high BP but if I were you look into sleep. Very important factor in this equation.
    Higher body fat may be a the cause of poor sleep, but without checking is hard to say but is a good candidate. Poor sleep affect hormones too, so it's like a cascade.
    Dont think omega 3 has anything to do with it that I know of

  6. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    That's a tough one and if I had to take a stab at it would be poor sleep. Also the entire methabolic syndrome causes high BP but if I were you look into sleep. Very important factor in this equation.
    Higher body fat may be a the cause of poor sleep, but without checking is hard to say but is a good candidate. Poor sleep affect hormones too, so it's like a cascade.
    Dont think omega 3 has anything to do with it that I know of
    You must be reading my medical history!

    I did a sleep study which showed mild OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) + I am getting sleepy an hour after my first meal even though little or no carbs. Lack of sleep = low GH and T = imbalanced body composition! If it wasn't for my doc urging me to do a sleep study, I would have never known.

    GH itself is required to improve endothelial function + it improves blood pressure via NO pathway.

    Poor hormone synthesis from sleep dysregulation + IR/LR (insulin/leptin resistance) which is part of metabolic syndrome, and, yep, there's the perfect storm for my body harboring unwanted bf and not enough lean mass! People with OSA have some of the lowest levels of growth hormone measured and this helps partially explain why most of them have body composition issues. Without supplementation, my DHEA-S level is also usually depressed.

    But if my IGF-1 level was 203 (which was elevated), that would indicate plenty of GH, wouldn't it? How else to measure GH level? Stimulation test?

    Also - same issue with total T vs. free T. Some say ignore free T, it's the total that's tells us more physiologically, whereas other say it's the free T that is the key one because it's what is bioavailable for function such as fat loss, lean mass, etc.

    My last TT was 623, but I had less free T than a 90-year old man! In addition, to build muscle, study shows we need a TT to be around 1000. There's no way I'm, going to achieve this unless I'm doing TRT or a cycle.

    Thoughts?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    You must be reading my medical history!

    I did a sleep study which showed mild OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) + I am getting sleepy an hour after my first meal even though little or no carbs. Lack of sleep = low GH and T = imbalanced body composition! If it wasn't for my doc urging me to do a sleep study, I would have never known.

    GH itself is required to improve endothelial function + it improves blood pressure via NO pathway.

    Poor hormone synthesis from sleep dysregulation + IR/LR (insulin/leptin resistance) which is part of metabolic syndrome, and, yep, there's the perfect storm for my body harboring unwanted bf and not enough lean mass! People with OSA have some of the lowest levels of growth hormone measured and this helps partially explain why most of them have body composition issues. Without supplementation, my DHEA-S level is also usually depressed.

    But if my IGF-1 level was 203 (which was elevated), that would indicate plenty of GH, wouldn't it? How else to measure GH level? Stimulation test?

    Also - same issue with total T vs. free T. Some say ignore free T, it's the total that's tells us more physiologically, whereas other say it's the free T that is the key one because it's what is bioavailable for function such as fat loss, lean mass, etc.

    My last TT was 623, but I had less free T than a 90-year old man! In addition, to build muscle, study shows we need a TT to be around 1000. There's no way I'm, going to achieve this unless I'm doing TRT or a cycle.

    Thoughts?
    Not unless you are no turning igf-1 to GH why it crucial n these cases to get Rhein 24 hour urine done.
    SHBG elevated need to have pathology ruled out as it may be a sign of something much worse which TRT will only mask.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  8. 23andme does not look too bad, but I see a lot of issues which need addressing. I bet you have issues with internalizing stress, might have had some ADDHD growing up. or may be your children may be having these issues ? Very few people know how to decipher these results.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Not unless you are no turning igf-1 to GH why it crucial n these cases to get Rhein 24 hour urine done.
    SHBG elevated need to have pathology ruled out as it may be a sign of something much worse which TRT will only mask.
    Thought that was the case with IGF-1. I have never done the Rhein. I did Meridian's a couple years ago:

    HGH: 1931 - REF RANGE: 1065-4722
    TESTOSTERONE: 42.3 REF RANGE: 20-200

    I have low sodium.

    Do you think Rhein is more accurate?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    23andme does not look too bad, but I see a lot of issues which need addressing. I bet you have issues with internalizing stress, might have had some ADDHD growing up. or may be your children may be having these issues ? Very few people know how to decipher these results.
    I am already on a methylation protocol for MTHFR. What else do you see? Internalizing stress? Yes. ADHD? No. Have no kids to worry about.
    •   
       


  11. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I am already on a methylation protocol for MTHFR. What else do you see? Internalizing stress? Yes. ADHD? No. Have no kids to worry about.
    Need.to address.other issues first before doing methylation. Why protocols back fire.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    You must be reading my medical history!

    I did a sleep study which showed mild OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) + I am getting sleepy an hour after my first meal even though little or no carbs. Lack of sleep = low GH and T = imbalanced body composition! If it wasn't for my doc urging me to do a sleep study, I would have never known.

    GH itself is required to improve endothelial function + it improves blood pressure via NO pathway.

    Poor hormone synthesis from sleep dysregulation + IR/LR (insulin/leptin resistance) which is part of metabolic syndrome, and, yep, there's the perfect storm for my body harboring unwanted bf and not enough lean mass! People with OSA have some of the lowest levels of growth hormone measured and this helps partially explain why most of them have body composition issues. Without supplementation, my DHEA-S level is also usually depressed.

    But if my IGF-1 level was 203 (which was elevated), that would indicate plenty of GH, wouldn't it? How else to measure GH level? Stimulation test?

    Also - same issue with total T vs. free T. Some say ignore free T, it's the total that's tells us more physiologically, whereas other say it's the free T that is the key one because it's what is bioavailable for function such as fat loss, lean mass, etc.

    My last TT was 623, but I had less free T than a 90-year old man! In addition, to build muscle, study shows we need a TT to be around 1000. There's no way I'm, going to achieve this unless I'm doing TRT or a cycle.

    Thoughts?
    Haha I have done extensive research on these subjects which started with my love for bodybuilding. The health and bodybuilding sort of morphed into one as I've got older. I always liked to know why and how things happen a certain way.
    Honestly GH is a small part of the entire process. THere are many more hormones produced in the body while sleeping. Like I've mentioned in other posts Gh doesnt really burn fat contrary to popular belief. If you have sleep problems I'd get a hold of a machine that forces air into your nose while sleeping so you can actually get a good night sleep.Personally I wouldnt go crazy trying to keep measuring GH.
    Case and point, when I was heavier my sleep was poor due to poor breathing. I used to always be tired, nap all the time. Upon losing 20 lbs my sleep is great, I dream again, and I wake up rested and feeling great.
    I'd say free T is just as important as total T. Both play an important role. Normal total T and low Free T points to problems. Something along the way is robbing your free T from circulation. Usually is SHBG which it seems to point to something wrong with liver inflamation.

    In your case I would try very hard to lose weight any way you can even if you have to lower your calories and increase physical activity a bit. I would predict that most of the issues you have will slowly go away and hormones may return to normal upon weight loss. Trying to treat every hormon individually is a long road.

    If you want to cycle and push the process along I think in your case is a viable option. You can also do without but it wont be as easy.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Haha I have done extensive research on these subjects which started with my love for bodybuilding. The health and bodybuilding sort of morphed into one as I've got older. I always liked to know why and how things happen a certain way.
    Honestly GH is a small part of the entire process. THere are many more hormones produced in the body while sleeping. Like I've mentioned in other posts Gh doesnt really burn fat contrary to popular belief. If you have sleep problems I'd get a hold of a machine that forces air into your nose while sleeping so you can actually get a good night sleep.Personally I wouldnt go crazy trying to keep measuring GH.
    Case and point, when I was heavier my sleep was poor due to poor breathing. I used to always be tired, nap all the time. Upon losing 20 lbs my sleep is great, I dream again, and I wake up rested and feeling great.
    I'd say free T is just as important as total T. Both play an important role. Normal total T and low Free T points to problems. Something along the way is robbing your free T from circulation. Usually is SHBG which it seems to point to something wrong with liver inflamation.

    In your case I would try very hard to lose weight any way you can even if you have to lower your calories and increase physical activity a bit. I would predict that most of the issues you have will slowly go away and hormones may return to normal upon weight loss. Trying to treat every hormon individually is a long road.

    If you want to cycle and push the process along I think in your case is a viable option. You can also do without but it wont be as easy.
    Chronic inflammation has been at the root of most of these issues including body comp. The problem is that we can't determine the source(s) of the inflammation. Too much thyroid hormone is one - and is what I believed caused the latest bout of inflammation. Disrupted sleep is another. There are many. I know I have REM because I dream.

    BP was worse in a.m. None of my usual concoctions worked (Arginine AKG, mag citrate, hawthorne, etc.).
    Then took about 7g potassium citrate which seems to have reduced it nearly 20pts on both systolic and diastolic. This would indicate an electrolyte imbalance. Eating lots of protein also causes my system to become very acidic. Potassium is the only thing to bring it more alkaline. Increased fat (especially SFAs) I read can cause vasoconstriction which would increase BP, but that's part of the Paleo diet.

    On a side note, new study shows that lifting heavy does not induce hypertrophy any differently than lifting lighter:
    jap.physiology.org/content/early/2012/04/12/japplphysiol.00307.2012.abstra ct

  14. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Chronic inflammation has been at the root of most of these issues including body comp. The problem is that we can't determine the source(s) of the inflammation. Too much thyroid hormone is one - and is what I believed caused the latest bout of inflammation. Disrupted sleep is another. There are many. I know I have REM because I dream.

    BP was worse in a.m. None of my usual concoctions worked (Arginine AKG, mag citrate, hawthorne, etc.).
    Then took about 7g potassium citrate which seems to have reduced it nearly 20pts on both systolic and diastolic. This would indicate an electrolyte imbalance. Eating lots of protein also causes my system to become very acidic. Potassium is the only thing to bring it more alkaline. Increased fat (especially SFAs) I read can cause vasoconstriction which would increase BP, but that's part of the Paleo diet.

    On a side note, new study shows that lifting heavy does not induce hypertrophy any differently than lifting lighter:
    jap.physiology.org/content/early/2012/04/12/japplphysiol.00307.2012.abstra ct
    Weight loss is prob the best option you have to normilize many function in your body.
    Hmm, potassium regulates water retension..can this be a problem?
    Have you tried a water pill?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Weight loss is prob the best option you have to normilize many function in your body.
    Hmm, potassium regulates water retension..can this be a problem?
    Have you tried a water pill?
    My sodium is already low so I don't know if a diuretic would help. I was taking a special celery seed extract, but ran out a few weeks ago. Most diuretics change the ratio of sodium to potassium in the blood and as a result dangerous side effects can occur. In contrast, celery seed extract acts as a diuretic but does not change the ratio of sodium to potassium in the blood.

    Also, being on Paleo, my diet contains less potassium because I limit fruits.

    Compound that with a high protein diet and my acidity doubles. So far, potassium is the only supplement that eliminates that.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Weight loss is prob the best option you have to normilize many function in your body.
    Hmm, potassium regulates water retension..can this be a problem?
    Have you tried a water pill?
    Here 's something:
    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

    Thoughts?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Here 's something:
    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

    Thoughts?
    Their is a gene called ACE which I see a lot.of.people have who have this issue.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Here 's something:
    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

    Thoughts?
    Their is a gene called ACE which I see a lot.of.people have who have this issue.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Their is a gene called ACE which I see a lot.of.people have who have this issue.
    You mean the serum ACE which is a lab test? My last result was 62 which is high normal.

    My renin and aldosterone is super low as is sodium. Thoughts?

    MTHFR is associated with HTN:
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22237773

  20. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Here 's something:
    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP

    Thoughts?
    Let me ask you this, how high is your blood pressure?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    You mean the serum ACE which is a lab test? My last result was 62 which is high normal.

    My renin and aldosterone is super low as is sodium. Thoughts?

    MTHFR is associated with HTN:
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22237773
    How low is sodium below 134?

  22. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Let me ask you this, how high is your blood pressure?
    Yesterday - a.m.: 148/95
    p.m. (3h pwo): 125/81

  23. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    How low is sodium below 134?
    No, actually serum was 137 which is normal; sodium urine was low: 32 - ref range: 40-220

  24. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Yesterday - a.m.: 148/95
    p.m. (3h pwo): 125/81
    That's up there
    How is your level of magnesium?
    Do you get muscle spasms?

  25. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    That's up there
    How is your level of magnesium?
    Do you get muscle spasms?
    Serum Mg is in the mid-range. Never notice spasms.

    OSA can also cause HTN as well. Like I said, I was dx'd with a mild form of OSA. I also have the MTHFR mutation which is associated with HTN as well. Double whammy. I was trying mag citrate but it gave me the runs. I am going to switch to mag glycinate.

    I actually think the fish oil helps keep BP down. It was after I stopped it and started measuring it that I noticed it was higher than usual. I resumed my dosage and now my mid-day and evening reading are much lower. Vigorous training, especially cardio, will lower it as well.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Serum Mg is in the mid-range. Never notice spasms.

    OSA can also cause HTN as well. Like I said, I was dx'd with a mild form of OSA. I also have the MTHFR mutation which is associated with HTN as well. Double whammy. I was trying mag citrate but it gave me the runs. I am going to switch to mag glycinate.

    I actually think the fish oil helps keep BP down. It was after I stopped it and started measuring it that I noticed it was higher than usual. I resumed my dosage and now my mid-day and evening reading are much lower. Vigorous training, especially cardio, will lower it as well.
    Maybe try hawthornberry. It does seem to help with blood pressure a bit.
    Mag citrate may too concentrated.
    Interesting about the fish oil.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Maybe try hawthornberry. It does seem to help with blood pressure a bit.
    Mag citrate may too concentrated.
    Interesting about the fish oil.
    I take about 5g a hawthorn daily and still awake with HTN. Not for sure on the FO unless I stop it again and measure readings.

    BP just keeps increasing for no apparent reason. Nothing is working in combination or separate (arginine, hawthorn, fish oil, magnesium, GABA, etc.). For the last 3 years I have been able to keep it in check using one or more of these as an alternative to meds. The only thing I haven't tried is incorporating a bit more carbs to see if that makes any difference. Reducing salt intake does nothing.

    Cardio is the only thing that brings it down but it's only temporary and goes back up within 4-5 hours after.

    May need to go to last resort - meds.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I take about 5g a hawthorn daily and still awake with HTN. Not for sure on the FO unless I stop it again and measure readings.

    BP just keeps increasing for no apparent reason. Nothing is working in combination or separate (arginine, hawthorn, fish oil, magnesium, GABA, etc.). For the last 3 years I have been able to keep it in check using one or more of these as an alternative to meds. The only thing I haven't tried is incorporating a bit more carbs to see if that makes any difference. Reducing salt intake does nothing.

    Cardio is the only thing that brings it down but it's only temporary and goes back up within 4-5 hours after.

    May need to go to last resort - meds.
    Ok,
    Have you looked into the blood being too thick, high cholesterol particle count, tried taking a baby aspirin a day to thin out the blood or donating some blood and see if that makes a difference?

    I mean it could be genetic but if you can do something to avoid meds it's well worth it. I heard those BP meds are down right nasty.

    One more thing, magnesium should be checked in the cell not the serum in the blood. Appearently, magnesium in the cell is much better way to check it's level. Make sure that's ok, everywhere I read blood pressure increase could be the body's way of trying to fix a problem of magnesium deficiency. I might be wrong but it's worth a shot.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Ok,
    Have you looked into the blood being too thick, high cholesterol particle count, tried taking a baby aspirin a day to thin out the blood or donating some blood and see if that makes a difference?

    I mean it could be genetic but if you can do something to avoid meds it's well worth it. I heard those BP meds are down right nasty.
    I had two blood clots last year (most likely due to too much T3) so I am very familiar with fibrinogen level as well as all the lipid issue. I do take aspirin and many other natural thinners like ginkgo, FO, garlic, etc. At first I thought it was the higher SFAs from eating paleo foods like butter and coconut oil, but that has never been proven. The only things I can think of is what I mentioned before:

    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP - solution would be to increase carbs, but not enough to undo ketosis and cause IR.

    Genetic methylation defect that is associated with HTN - of which I carry the gene - solution: natural and/or pharmaceutical hypotensives.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I had two blood clots last year (most likely due to too much T3) so I am very familiar with fibrinogen level as well as all the lipid issue. I do take aspirin and many other natural thinners like ginkgo, FO, garlic, etc. At first I thought it was the higher SFAs from eating paleo foods like butter and coconut oil, but that has never been proven. The only things I can think of is what I mentioned before:

    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP - solution would be to increase carbs, but not enough to undo ketosis and cause IR.

    Genetic methylation defect that is associated with HTN - of which I carry the gene - solution: natural and/or pharmaceutical hypotensives.
    hmm, seems like you tried everything. It's frustrating to do everything right and still no results.
  

  
 

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