Normal T, low Free T, High SHBG - TRT or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    You mean the serum ACE which is a lab test? My last result was 62 which is high normal.

    My renin and aldosterone is super low as is sodium. Thoughts?

    MTHFR is associated with HTN:
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22237773
    How low is sodium below 134?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Let me ask you this, how high is your blood pressure?
    Yesterday - a.m.: 148/95
    p.m. (3h pwo): 125/81
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    How low is sodium below 134?
    No, actually serum was 137 which is normal; sodium urine was low: 32 - ref range: 40-220
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Yesterday - a.m.: 148/95
    p.m. (3h pwo): 125/81
    That's up there
    How is your level of magnesium?
    Do you get muscle spasms?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    That's up there
    How is your level of magnesium?
    Do you get muscle spasms?
    Serum Mg is in the mid-range. Never notice spasms.

    OSA can also cause HTN as well. Like I said, I was dx'd with a mild form of OSA. I also have the MTHFR mutation which is associated with HTN as well. Double whammy. I was trying mag citrate but it gave me the runs. I am going to switch to mag glycinate.

    I actually think the fish oil helps keep BP down. It was after I stopped it and started measuring it that I noticed it was higher than usual. I resumed my dosage and now my mid-day and evening reading are much lower. Vigorous training, especially cardio, will lower it as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Serum Mg is in the mid-range. Never notice spasms.

    OSA can also cause HTN as well. Like I said, I was dx'd with a mild form of OSA. I also have the MTHFR mutation which is associated with HTN as well. Double whammy. I was trying mag citrate but it gave me the runs. I am going to switch to mag glycinate.

    I actually think the fish oil helps keep BP down. It was after I stopped it and started measuring it that I noticed it was higher than usual. I resumed my dosage and now my mid-day and evening reading are much lower. Vigorous training, especially cardio, will lower it as well.
    Maybe try hawthornberry. It does seem to help with blood pressure a bit.
    Mag citrate may too concentrated.
    Interesting about the fish oil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Maybe try hawthornberry. It does seem to help with blood pressure a bit.
    Mag citrate may too concentrated.
    Interesting about the fish oil.
    I take about 5g a hawthorn daily and still awake with HTN. Not for sure on the FO unless I stop it again and measure readings.

    BP just keeps increasing for no apparent reason. Nothing is working in combination or separate (arginine, hawthorn, fish oil, magnesium, GABA, etc.). For the last 3 years I have been able to keep it in check using one or more of these as an alternative to meds. The only thing I haven't tried is incorporating a bit more carbs to see if that makes any difference. Reducing salt intake does nothing.

    Cardio is the only thing that brings it down but it's only temporary and goes back up within 4-5 hours after.

    May need to go to last resort - meds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I take about 5g a hawthorn daily and still awake with HTN. Not for sure on the FO unless I stop it again and measure readings.

    BP just keeps increasing for no apparent reason. Nothing is working in combination or separate (arginine, hawthorn, fish oil, magnesium, GABA, etc.). For the last 3 years I have been able to keep it in check using one or more of these as an alternative to meds. The only thing I haven't tried is incorporating a bit more carbs to see if that makes any difference. Reducing salt intake does nothing.

    Cardio is the only thing that brings it down but it's only temporary and goes back up within 4-5 hours after.

    May need to go to last resort - meds.
    Ok,
    Have you looked into the blood being too thick, high cholesterol particle count, tried taking a baby aspirin a day to thin out the blood or donating some blood and see if that makes a difference?

    I mean it could be genetic but if you can do something to avoid meds it's well worth it. I heard those BP meds are down right nasty.

    One more thing, magnesium should be checked in the cell not the serum in the blood. Appearently, magnesium in the cell is much better way to check it's level. Make sure that's ok, everywhere I read blood pressure increase could be the body's way of trying to fix a problem of magnesium deficiency. I might be wrong but it's worth a shot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Ok,
    Have you looked into the blood being too thick, high cholesterol particle count, tried taking a baby aspirin a day to thin out the blood or donating some blood and see if that makes a difference?

    I mean it could be genetic but if you can do something to avoid meds it's well worth it. I heard those BP meds are down right nasty.
    I had two blood clots last year (most likely due to too much T3) so I am very familiar with fibrinogen level as well as all the lipid issue. I do take aspirin and many other natural thinners like ginkgo, FO, garlic, etc. At first I thought it was the higher SFAs from eating paleo foods like butter and coconut oil, but that has never been proven. The only things I can think of is what I mentioned before:

    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP - solution would be to increase carbs, but not enough to undo ketosis and cause IR.

    Genetic methylation defect that is associated with HTN - of which I carry the gene - solution: natural and/or pharmaceutical hypotensives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I had two blood clots last year (most likely due to too much T3) so I am very familiar with fibrinogen level as well as all the lipid issue. I do take aspirin and many other natural thinners like ginkgo, FO, garlic, etc. At first I thought it was the higher SFAs from eating paleo foods like butter and coconut oil, but that has never been proven. The only things I can think of is what I mentioned before:

    VLC DIET = ↑ CATECHOLAMINES (i.e. ADRENALIN) = ↑ BP - solution would be to increase carbs, but not enough to undo ketosis and cause IR.

    Genetic methylation defect that is associated with HTN - of which I carry the gene - solution: natural and/or pharmaceutical hypotensives.
    hmm, seems like you tried everything. It's frustrating to do everything right and still no results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    hmm, seems like you tried everything. It's frustrating to do everything right and still no results.
    Correct the expressions in the pathways would be the next thing to do..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Correct the expressions in the pathways would be the next thing to do..
    can you be more specific?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    can you be more specific?
    One could do a full days lecture on it..You can not put the complexity in a few paragraphs be impossible. Be like trying to explain on how to do open heart surgery..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Correct the expressions in the pathways would be the next thing to do..
    I'd say you right, it's just an arduous process to get to the bottom of the problem though. Food plays a crucial role in how the body behaves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    can you be more specific?
    I think at this point the best thing for you to do and this is just a suggestion if it was me, I'd lower body fat to around 10% or as close to that as your body will allow it even if it means to do a cycle of low test and other supps to get to that point. Once that's accomplished then see where everything stands like BP, cholesterol, insulin resistance, liver etc. and look at further steps you can take to normilize it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I think at this point the best thing for you to do and this is just a suggestion if it was me, I'd lower body fat to around 10% or as close to that as your body will allow it even if it means to do a cycle of low test and other supps to get to that point. Once that's accomplished then see where everything stands like BP, cholesterol, insulin resistance, liver etc. and look at further steps you can take to normilize it.
    Man, I can only hope it would be that simple. I have been trying like hell to get my bf down for the last 3 years naturally and I think that anything over 18% bf is a huge factor in causing these problems. I am about 22% now.

    My doc agrees with you that most of these maladies will ameliorate with TRT and CPAP (or something similar) to resolve my obstructive sleep apnea. I was recently (about 4.5 years ago) able to drop both weight by 20 lbs and bf% to 15% before (and I was not eating keto, paleo or doing IF, and was NOT taking any thyroid meds) but was physically active during the day and slept pretty well. I still could not lose that insulin resistant fat around my midsection though.

    The doc wrote me a script for a CPAP sleep alternative (nasal EPAP), 200mg test cyp w/ 100mg deca IM. As far as HGH, I will probably be on my own because my IGF-1 will mostly likely show high normal (200-250). For anti-aging (not longevity) though I always heard 300-400. Doc also wrote me a scrip for TD clonidine (patch) which transiently suppresses cortisol and increases GH, not bad sides! I've taken it before for a few days when I was stressed or had a bout of high BP. Only bad sides: dry mouth, sleepiness.
    anabolicminds.com/forum/advanced-discussion-dr/189971-clonidine.html

    I just have been paranoid of shooting T all this time because of:

    - HPTA feedback suppression
    - increased BP
    - decreased thyroid output
    - increased DHT = hair loss
    - increased water retention
    - increased E2 (aromatization)
    - testicular atrophy


    And rHGH has its own set of sides (CTS, insulin resistance, water retention, headaches, etc.).

    As to a T cycle, since I have a tendency toward estrogen dominance, don't you think an AI would be in order? And to prevent feedback suppression, HCG?

    Thoughts?

    Just curious - what are your thoughts on the following AAS stacks:
    - trenbolone
    - masteron
    - primabolin
    - equipoise

    You mentioned the very effective peptide, IGF1-lr3, a few posts back. What were your experiences, both positive and negative? What did you stack it with and what would you recommend? What are the main differences between it and straight IGF?


    Thanks for your input!
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I think at this point the best thing for you to do and this is just a suggestion if it was me, I'd lower body fat to around 10% or as close to that as your body will allow it even if it means to do a cycle of low test and other supps to get to that point. Once that's accomplished then see where everything stands like BP, cholesterol, insulin resistance, liver etc. and look at further steps you can take to normilize it.
    I have determined that my liver is fine. It was too much exogenous thyroid hormone (T3) that causes a rise in SHBG which then bound up my Free Test (and E2).

    Given that, I've done everything I can.

    Getting back to doing the T cycle combo, since I have a tendency toward estrogen dominance, don't you think an AI would be in order? And to prevent feedback suppression, HCG?

    What are your thoughts about running test e instead of cyp? I hear it causes less water retention, but you're not as strong.

    And Just curious - what are your thoughts on the following AAS stacks:
    - trenbolone
    - masteron
    - primabolin
    - equipoise


    You mentioned the very effective peptide, IGF1-lr3, a few posts back. What were your experiences, both positive and negative? What did you stack it with and what would you recommend? What are the main differences between it and straight IGF?
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    Good work in determining what was the issue with SHBG. THe point is that taking T3 in that high dosage I just dont see the benefit. Im from the old school in using as little as possible to get results and more is not better type a deal. In any case, going to to the AI scenario..yes I would always use an AI while taking test. It could be very little but since one injection will spike E2 an AI is in order.
    Test E and test cyp is basically the same. In theory Test cyp is weaker on paper but in reality both the same.
    Well...primo is the best, few sides if any no bloat nice slow clean gains. Masteron is next basically the same as primo except DHT is an issue. EQ is good, mild a good addition to a test cycle instead of deca. Tren is the strongest compound I know. Very strong with too many sides to list.

    IGF lr3 stays in your system longer than IGF and It's a double edge sword. It makes cells multiply and grow. Good for muscle but if you prone to cancer IGF is the last thing you want to do.IGFlr3 can be done alone or with GH as a bridge between anabolic cycles.
    Gains are not quickly noticeable, but if you use it for a few years on and off I will say that it def grows new muscle cells which given time to mature will grow. But then again there are other genetic factors involved too such as how well nutrients get to the cells and how are being utilized.
    Not to get off subject, what im noticing about some of the top bodybuilders today is that they will have a decent run for a few years and then they are gone once they take a break and try to come back. Im assuming that there is some kind of damage done from using all these compounds all the time without a real break. Anyway is just an observation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Good work in determining what was the issue with SHBG. THe point is that taking T3 in that high dosage I just dont see the benefit. Im from the old school in using as little as possible to get results and more is not better type a deal. In any case, going to to the AI scenario..yes I would always use an AI while taking test. It could be very little but since one injection will spike E2 an AI is in order.
    Test E and test cyp is basically the same. In theory Test cyp is weaker on paper but in reality both the same.
    Well...primo is the best, few sides if any no bloat nice slow clean gains. Masteron is next basically the same as primo except DHT is an issue. EQ is good, mild a good addition to a test cycle instead of deca. Tren is the strongest compound I know. Very strong with too many sides to list.

    IGF lr3 stays in your system longer than IGF and It's a double edge sword. It makes cells multiply and grow. Good for muscle but if you prone to cancer IGF is the last thing you want to do.IGFlr3 can be done alone or with GH as a bridge between anabolic cycles.
    Gains are not quickly noticeable, but if you use it for a few years on and off I will say that it def grows new muscle cells which given time to mature will grow. But then again there are other genetic factors involved too such as how well nutrients get to the cells and how are being utilized.
    Not to get off subject, what im noticing about some of the top bodybuilders today is that they will have a decent run for a few years and then they are gone once they take a break and try to come back. Im assuming that there is some kind of damage done from using all these compounds all the time without a real break. Anyway is just an observation.
    Thanks for getting back. As age plays a factor in declining hormones in my case (I am 53), I really need to address the fact that even though my low free T may come back by now keeping at a lower dose of T3, it may never come back fully to what it was before T3 therapy. You agree?

    I mean, how can I lean out and build mass when free T is so low (last level 11.90) even though natural Total T is mid-range (500s). And even with Total T, can one expect to make huge gains in the mid-500s? I don't think so. I am therefore arguing a case for TRT here (I've tried to do everyone stay off it and do it natural), weighing in on the sides vs. benefits. As far as sides like hair loss, I've already pretty much maxed out on that at my age according to research - and did something about by getting my hair transplanted. Transplanted hair is supposed to be resistant to the effects of DHT.

    As for reducing the other sides of TRT, polycythemia can be managed by therapeutic phlebotomy, high blood pressure from excess E2 is managed by an AI, and HPTA suppression, by Clomid or HCG. Water retention/bloat? I'm assuming an AI will help since much of that is from excess estrogen.

    The thing some of my friends have noticed is that TRT increases appetite. I'm thinking this is due to increased protein synthesis. I know GH will do the same.

    There only a handful of exceptions to the rule that most BBers have a decent run and then blow out from abuse of AAS/PEDs. And how do we know those guys aren't still using one or more things even then.

    My doc has written me a scrip for cyp and deca, but I'm not so sure I want to always have the deca; I'd rather run them separate

    Lastly, do you see any benefit to perhaps running some other peptides as a cycle in between HGH in addition to IGF1lr3 such as mod-GRF, GHRP-2/GHRP-6 and frag?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Thanks for getting back. As age plays a factor in declining hormones in my case (I am 53), I really need to address the fact that even though my low free T may come back by now keeping at a lower dose of T3, it may never come back fully to what it was before T3 therapy. You agree?

    Not really. From experience T3 doesnt produce permanent damage. Once stopped body will adjust back to it's initial ranges.

    I mean, how can I lean out and build mass when free T is so low (last level 11.90) even though natural Total T is mid-range (500s). And even with Total T, can one expect to make huge gains in the mid-500s? I don't think so. I am therefore arguing a case for TRT here (I've tried to do everyone stay off it and do it natural), weighing in on the sides vs. benefits. As far as sides like hair loss, I've already pretty much maxed out on that at my age according to research - and did something about by getting my hair transplanted. Transplanted hair is supposed to be resistant to the effects of DHT.

    I dont see any issues with you being on TRT at this age. DHT I was talking about prostate. I will be honest teststerone will help in many way but body fat will still need to be addressed through diet.
    As for reducing the other sides of TRT, polycythemia can be managed by therapeutic phlebotomy, high blood pressure from excess E2 is managed by an AI, and HPTA suppression, by Clomid or HCG. Water retention/bloat? I'm assuming an AI will help since much of that is from excess estrogen.

    The thing some of my friends have noticed is that TRT increases appetite. I'm thinking this is due to increased protein synthesis. I know GH will do the same.

    There only a handful of exceptions to the rule that most BBers have a decent run and then blow out from abuse of AAS/PEDs. And how do we know those guys aren't still using one or more things even then.

    [B]This would not apply to you. Dosage would be much lower in your case. I was just stating an observation
    My doc has written me a scrip for cyp and deca, but I'm not so sure I want to always have the deca; I'd rather run them separate
    No, you dont want to run deca by itself. Always with test or just run test alone but never deca alone. Kills sex drive.
    Lastly, do you see any benefit to perhaps running some other peptides as a cycle in between HGH in addition to IGF1lr3 such as mod-GRF, GHRP-2/GHRP-6 and frag?
    No. Just run GH at the full peptide spectrum. GH should be run for 6-12 months at the time anyway with IGF thrown in there for 30-45 days at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    No. Just run GH at the full peptide spectrum. GH should be run for 6-12 months at the time anyway with IGF thrown in there for 30-45 days at the time.
    Don't know if it makes any difference, but what do you recommend for the best quality GH? My friend said serostim is best but very expensive. Other friends use kigtropin I believe which is from China. Many advise to stay away from anything from China.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Don't know if it makes any difference, but what do you recommend for the best quality GH? My friend said serostim is best but very expensive. Other friends use kigtropin I believe which is from China. Many advise to stay away from anything from China.
    Get the one that's in powder form. Nothing wrong with GH from china if it's handled properly. Kigtropin is fine too. Blue tops if are real they fine as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Get the one that's in powder form. Nothing wrong with GH from china if it's handled properly. Kigtropin is fine too. Blue tops if are real they fine as well.
    The following gripe may be a moot point now knowing my latest free T is almost nothing (despite my total T of 557): 11.9 ref range: 09.0-46.0ng/dL. How anyone can lose fat/gain muscle with that is beyond me.

    Not surprisingly, got some disappointing news again today after doing two follow-up bf % measurements back to back:

    That neither lean mass or bf (still @ 25%) has changed at all in the last 3 years despite diet and training. No muscle was gained unless it accompanied additional fat. And when I lost weight, I proportionately lost lean mass as well, and the fat hung on no matter how hard I trained, did interval cardio, ate clean, paleo, high protein, moderate protein, low carb, keto , did IF, and lately, counted calories. No wonder it looks as if I don't even work out no matter what. The last time exercise and diet made any difference was in my mid-20s. When I see no gains over such a long period of time, it drains my energy and motivation and I think why even work out?

    I had been arguing this from day one when I joined this forum and everyone argued that it's calories in/calories out. To a certain degree, that's absolutely true when it comes to weight loss or gain in general but does NOT guarantee the desired outcome in BODY COMPOSITION (in 99.999% cases, more muscle & less fat). All bets are off when other things such as cortisol, estrogen, T (both FREE and TOTAL) and thyroid/adrenal aren't optimized - or if you have liver issues, inflammation, insulin/leptin resistance or obstructive sleep apnea which can mess up all those and more. I am living proof.

    Other than low free T, it appear that I crashed my RMR and became more hypothyroid from lowering my dose due to fear it had caused the 2 clots last year. Now I'm not sure that is the case and am looking at my mild case of sleep apnea as a possible cause. As far as 3-hr post-prandial BG - I still peak at about 130 from eating about 40g carbs. Do you still think IR is an issue??

    Bottom line: My take is that I think all of those diets and training programs can and do work really well - but only in hormone-optimized, toxin-free, non-airway-obstructed individuals. I think I have tried hard enough without intervention. Now it's time to take the leap of faith and run with it.

    My doc suggested I stick with pharmaceutical-grade GH. The question is procurement, authenticity & availability.

    What specifically are the main benefits of IGF1-lr3?

    Doc wrote a scrip for a combo of test cyp 100mg and deca 25mg. Should I run that on alternate weeks in between the test cyp by itself? I'm thinking the deca will help additionally with my shoulder impingement.
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    I will respond to your post sunday when I have more time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    The following gripe may be a moot point now knowing my latest free T is almost nothing (despite my total T of 557): 11.9 ref range: 09.0-46.0ng/dL. How anyone can lose fat/gain muscle with that is beyond me.

    Not surprisingly, got some disappointing news again today after doing two follow-up bf % measurements back to back:

    That neither lean mass or bf (still @ 25%) has changed at all in the last 3 years despite diet and training. No muscle was gained unless it accompanied additional fat. And when I lost weight, I proportionately lost lean mass as well, and the fat hung on no matter how hard I trained, did interval cardio, ate clean, paleo, high protein, moderate protein, low carb, keto , did IF, and lately, counted calories. No wonder it looks as if I don't even work out no matter what. The last time exercise and diet made any difference was in my mid-20s. When I see no gains over such a long period of time, it drains my energy and motivation and I think why even work out?

    I had been arguing this from day one when I joined this forum and everyone argued that it's calories in/calories out. To a certain degree, that's absolutely true when it comes to weight loss or gain in general but does NOT guarantee the desired outcome in BODY COMPOSITION (in 99.999% cases, more muscle & less fat). All bets are off when other things such as cortisol, estrogen, T (both FREE and TOTAL) and thyroid/adrenal aren't optimized - or if you have liver issues, inflammation, insulin/leptin resistance or obstructive sleep apnea which can mess up all those and more. I am living proof.

    Other than low free T, it appear that I crashed my RMR and became more hypothyroid from lowering my dose due to fear it had caused the 2 clots last year. Now I'm not sure that is the case and am looking at my mild case of sleep apnea as a possible cause. As far as 3-hr post-prandial BG - I still peak at about 130 from eating about 40g carbs. Do you still think IR is an issue??

    Bottom line: My take is that I think all of those diets and training programs can and do work really well - but only in hormone-optimized, toxin-free, non-airway-obstructed individuals. I think I have tried hard enough without intervention. Now it's time to take the leap of faith and run with it.

    My doc suggested I stick with pharmaceutical-grade GH. The question is procurement, authenticity & availability.

    What specifically are the main benefits of IGF1-lr3?

    Doc wrote a scrip for a combo of test cyp 100mg and deca 25mg. Should I run that on alternate weeks in between the test cyp by itself? I'm thinking the deca will help additionally with my shoulder impingement.
    ok, let me start with calories in/calorie out deal. I strongly disagree with that concept. THere is so much at work here and so many variables such as hormones and in what state the body is at any given point that overall i dont use that any longer. It's ok to monitor food intake but the rate at which the body uses it vs the amount of physical activity is different for everyone. So on this I agree with you. It will not guarantee much and results will vary based on the person and their genetic make up.

    On to your thyriod. Thyroid will send the signal to your cell to speed up methabolism however, burning adipose fat for energy is a different story. Cells must work properly for this process to happen...and it mostly happens in the presence of glucagon. If there is insulin being secreted in certain amount all the time which supresses glucagon it's very hard to use fat for energy.

    Now to the interesting part...as far as BG is concerned. When you do the 3 hours measure, what is your fasted BG, then what ar the levels 1 hour later, then 2 hour later then 3 hours?
    IR is an issue in many ppl without them knowing for years. IR is something that happens naturally in our lives especially in presence of extra food to help us store it as fat for later use. Continuous IR is the big issue here. Low or high test levels has no bearing on weight loss generally speaking. You should lose weight regardless. Test levels do help if they are optimal, and it also helps with muscle mass but as fat as weight loss is concerned it doesnt matter. Why?
    Let's say you are starving. Test levels will prob be low and the body should be able to burn fat for energy. If that doesnt happen there is something very wrong with the breakdown of adipose fat to be use for energy. Hope you get my point here!

    I would do the cyp and deca together. Both work well together. I would still do low carb and try to supress insulin as much as possible for a while and let glucagon dominate for the time being. It is very possible you do have IR...how is you cholesterol...HDL, LDL, TRIG?
    Did you ever have a lipo protein profile done?
    Being insulin resistant cause some weird abnormalities. Basically one's body can easily store fat, yet very hard to lose it. You can be hungry yet the body would preffer more food intake rather than burning adipose fat. A normal person between meals would tap into fat reserves, IR ppl will consistently have to eat to rise their energy levels. It seems that cell do not get the right signal to switch back and forth between burning glucose and adipose fat for energy. From my research cells tend to close up receptors to certain processes and it takes a lot of time to fix this problem. THis is mostly because insulin has overwhelmed these cells over many years of constant high fat high carb intake especially simple sugars.
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    This what I would do if I were you:
    Go on HRT just test and deca plus an AI.
    Keep diet low carb consisting of fresh vegetables and 2 servings of fruit a day with the occasional no carb days except vegetables. Keep fat intake middle of the road as much as need it to give you energy.
    Train 3 times a week 45 min each session with med weights..nothing heavy. Dont need your appetite to go up, eat as litttle as possble.
    See how that goes
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    I know you had asked me this in a previous post back on this thread, but here some relevant data again:

    FBG range: 86-95
    a1c: 5.3
    Fasting insulin: 5.7


    You can see the rest of my labs including lipids here: [box.com/s/iyg8sw10mfrcg1mtgq5l]
    Another question: HGH is known to cause IR in some people. What to do about this?

    Thanks again for your insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    ok, let me start with calories in/calorie out deal. I strongly disagree with that concept. THere is so much at work here and so many variables such as hormones and in what state the body is at any given point that overall i dont use that any longer. It's ok to monitor food intake but the rate at which the body uses it vs the amount of physical activity is different for everyone. So on this I agree with you. It will not guarantee much and results will vary based on the person and their genetic make up.

    On to your thyriod. Thyroid will send the signal to your cell to speed up methabolism however, burning adipose fat for energy is a different story. Cells must work properly for this process to happen...and it mostly happens in the presence of glucagon. If there is insulin being secreted in certain amount all the time which supresses glucagon it's very hard to use fat for energy.

    Now to the interesting part...as far as BG is concerned. When you do the 3 hours measure, what is your fasted BG, then what ar the levels 1 hour later, then 2 hour later then 3 hours?

    IR is an issue in many ppl without them knowing for years. IR is something that happens naturally in our lives especially in presence of extra food to help us store it as fat for later use. Continuous IR is the big issue here. Low or high test levels has no bearing on weight loss generally speaking. You should lose weight regardless. Test levels do help if they are optimal, and it also helps with muscle mass but as fat as weight loss is concerned it doesnt matter. Why?
    Let's say you are starving. Test levels will prob be low and the body should be able to burn fat for energy. If that doesnt happen there is something very wrong with the breakdown of adipose fat to be use for energy. Hope you get my point here!

    I would do the cyp and deca together. Both work well together. I would still do low carb and try to supress insulin as much as possible for a while and let glucagon dominate for the time being. It is very possible you do have IR...how is you cholesterol...HDL, LDL, TRIG?
    Did you ever have a lipo protein profile done?
    Being insulin resistant cause some weird abnormalities. Basically one's body can easily store fat, yet very hard to lose it. You can be hungry yet the body would preffer more food intake rather than burning adipose fat. A normal person between meals would tap into fat reserves, IR ppl will consistently have to eat to rise their energy levels. It seems that cell do not get the right signal to switch back and forth between burning glucose and adipose fat for energy. From my research cells tend to close up receptors to certain processes and it takes a lot of time to fix this problem. THis is mostly because insulin has overwhelmed these cells over many years of constant high fat high carb intake especially simple sugars.
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    FBG range: 86-95
    a1c: 5.3
    Fasting insulin: 5.7


    NP
    That's not too bad. Your concern is that your BG goes up with carb intake. Try to check it for example with 1-2 cups of rice at 1,2,3 hour intervals. Eat rice and protein low fat. See how high your BG goes and how long it take to get back to baseline.
    As far as lipids are concerned your LDL-P is very high at over 3000. Small LDL-P at 2200 that means your lipids are comprised mostly of low density particles. That along with high CRP is not good. LDL particles need to come down. These small LDL particles should be less than 500. No more than 20% of the total particles and yours are around 50%.
    There isnt much to do about IR when taking GH besides taking a small dose of T3 which you already are taking.
    DO the experiment with eating rice and protein low fat and measure your BG. It will tell more of what is going on and we can discuss.

    From my experience, and i dont know if this holds true for everybody but if the liver makes way too many LDL-P particles especially the small density ones it affects cells insulin uptake. Im just learning more abouot this but I have seen improvement in BG with lower particle numbers. Just some food for thought
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    I have seen my 2-3 hr post-prandial BG go from the mid 90s to 140s from eating most any carbs especially if I don't suppress it with vinegar. I also take chromium, vanadium, and black coffee bean supplements.

    Yes, I realize it's my LDL-P that is the problem, but if I've made some pretty good improvement in lowering it since June of last year. I attribute that to diet and taking 1g of berberine daily. I had also tried slow-release niacin, but that causes its own problems in me. And APO B is still a problem (which is pretty much same as LDL-P). Choline helps with the fatty liver as do many other supps I'm taking. My doc thinks I will see improvement with the testosterone and GH, but we'll see.

    These issues did not start yesterday (hypothyroid, fatty liver, IR, etc.). It would be my guess that I had had them without knowing for the last 20 years. Obstructive sleep apnea has probably only been the case in the last 2 years.

    In contrast, a friend of mine gains 15lbs with less than 1% of fat. But then again, he's on TRT. If I gained 15lbs, I bet at least half of that would be fat, no matter what my macro profile is, even low carb, high protein! Why is my RMR so impaired?

    Since my RMR is 1500, based on my age, height & weight, I would need to consume no more than 1350 cals/day in order to lose enough bf. If I consume more than this, I will do nothing but add more bf. I will admit that it has been real hard to stick to that level unless I really decrease dietary fat.

    Outside of HRT/TRT, I still believe I can drop bf if I drop weight, as I was able to get to around 15-17% bf about 5 years ago - when I was 15lbs lighter than today. That proves that I can do it. HRT/TRT will just help me get there faster.

    What specifically are the main benefits of IGF1-lr3?



    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    FBG range: 86-95
    a1c: 5.3
    Fasting insulin: 5.7


    NP
    That's not too bad. Your concern is that your BG goes up with carb intake. Try to check it for example with 1-2 cups of rice at 1,2,3 hour intervals. Eat rice and protein low fat. See how high your BG goes and how long it take to get back to baseline.
    As far as lipids are concerned your LDL-P is very high at over 3000. Small LDL-P at 2200 that means your lipids are comprised mostly of low density particles. That along with high CRP is not good. LDL particles need to come down. These small LDL particles should be less than 500. No more than 20% of the total particles and yours are around 50%.
    There isnt much to do about IR when taking GH besides taking a small dose of T3 which you already are taking.
    DO the experiment with eating rice and protein low fat and measure your BG. It will tell more of what is going on and we can discuss.

    From my experience, and i dont know if this holds true for everybody but if the liver makes way too many LDL-P particles especially the small density ones it affects cells insulin uptake. Im just learning more abouot this but I have seen improvement in BG with lower particle numbers. Just some food for thought
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    I think you RMR is impaired because of the muscle cells inability to function properly. In your case the liver either through malfuntion or it's just geting the signal makes too many cholesterol particles. Cholesterol numbers means nothing, is how many particles the liver makes to transport that cholesterol around. In other words If the liver needs 3000 particles instead of 1000 particles to transport a totat cholesterol of 175 it means the 3000 particles are either filled half way or there is other compounds filling them up. Then the liver to make it;s quota of cholesterol since it's geting a signal from the cells it keeps making more and more. Through this process it just clogs up arteries and cell receptors thus slowing everything down.

    This also applies to insulin. The more cloged up the system is the less effective insulin is as well. So you can see that lowering those particle numbers is really important. Red yeast rice in conjunction with regular "no flush niacin" works wonders to restore lipid balance. Trust me it works. THe slow release niacin is not good..too toxic. If you need prescription meds go for it I dont think you have much of a choice.

    Indirectly TRT through muscle building will make more receptors available for nutrient uptake and fat burning. I dont believe testosterone alone will make a direct impact but it will help.
    IGF benefit from mypoint of view is cell division. Through this process it does burn some fat but in a normal working cell. I dont think will help insulin resistance to be honest but you can try it if you wish.

    AS far as RMR being slow is sometimes genetic as well. To improve that build as much muscle as you can and then that will def help.
    Mine went up to the point where eating is my second job
    Right now im trying to put on a few lbs hiting it heavy in the gym and just counted my daily caloric intake at about4300 cal and I think is not enough but I'll give it few more weeks till I add another meal in there.
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    Thanks for your assistance on putting the pieces of the puzzle together.

    Like statins, I never tried RYR because it can cause rhabdomyolysis. I was using extended-release niacin, not slow-release which has had problems with toxicity. But too much niacin in general is bad for me because of methylation defect (miacin can slow down methylation). Thoughts?

    VL carb diets like paleo and keto and taking supps like choline can cause the liver to release FFAs, like a purging effect, and temporarily raising TC and LDL, especially in fatty liver. Maybe it just takes a long time to resolve.

    The reason I brought up HGH before is because one of the sides is that it can cause IR. Thoughts?

    Looks like a big cause of dyslipidemia and IR goes back to thyroid function: [voices.yahoo.com/reverse-insulin-resistance-treat-t3-bioidentical-6479270.html].

    I am going to be adding natural dessicated thyroid to my T3. I think having the other components (T1, T2, calcitonin) will help + I had no problem converting T4 to T3 when I took T4 alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I think you RMR is impaired because of the muscle cells inability to function properly. In your case the liver either through malfuntion or it's just geting the signal makes too many cholesterol particles. Cholesterol numbers means nothing, is how many particles the liver makes to transport that cholesterol around. In other words If the liver needs 3000 particles instead of 1000 particles to transport a totat cholesterol of 175 it means the 3000 particles are either filled half way or there is other compounds filling them up. Then the liver to make it;s quota of cholesterol since it's geting a signal from the cells it keeps making more and more. Through this process it just clogs up arteries and cell receptors thus slowing everything down.

    This also applies to insulin. The more cloged up the system is the less effective insulin is as well. So you can see that lowering those particle numbers is really important. Red yeast rice in conjunction with regular "no flush niacin" works wonders to restore lipid balance. Trust me it works. THe slow release niacin is not good..too toxic. If you need prescription meds go for it I dont think you have much of a choice.

    Indirectly TRT through muscle building will make more receptors available for nutrient uptake and fat burning. I dont believe testosterone alone will make a direct impact but it will help.
    IGF benefit from mypoint of view is cell division. Through this process it does burn some fat but in a normal working cell. I dont think will help insulin resistance to be honest but you can try it if you wish.

    AS far as RMR being slow is sometimes genetic as well. To improve that build as much muscle as you can and then that will def help.
    Mine went up to the point where eating is my second job
    Right now im trying to put on a few lbs hiting it heavy in the gym and just counted my daily caloric intake at about4300 cal and I think is not enough but I'll give it few more weeks till I add another meal in there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Thanks for your assistance on putting the pieces of the puzzle together.

    Like statins, I never tried RYR because it can cause rhabdomyolysis. I was using extended-release niacin, not slow-release which has had problems with toxicity. But too much niacin in general is bad for me because of methylation defect (miacin can slow down methylation). Thoughts?
    Im not aware of any issue to speak of from the use of RYR and niacin. All bloodwork comes out fine everytime. Have you tried regular no flush niacin and RYR and you have had problems? Are you on statins?

    VL carb diets like paleo and keto and taking supps like choline can cause the liver to release FFAs, like a purging effect, and temporarily raising TC and LDL, especially in fatty liver. Maybe it just takes a long time to resolve.
    Valid approach however if your cells are impaired there is no need to release too much FFA and create much of the same problem.My advise is to approach the cells first then the rest will reesolve itself later. Less particles traveling around the better to fix your issue. The liver will take care itself as you lose weight anyway.

    The reason I brought up HGH before is because one of the sides is that it can cause IR. Thoughts?
    Yes it does. I would not use GH to lose body fat I would use it if you need to sleep better. I personally lose body fat a lot quicker without GH. GH actually makes me hold some water and I get bigger on it..i suppose it's dose dependent too.

    Looks like a big cause of dyslipidemia and IR goes back to thyroid function: [voices.yahoo.com/reverse-insulin-resistance-treat-t3-bioidentical-6479270.html].

    I am going to be adding natural dessicated thyroid to my T3. I think having the other components (T1, T2, calcitonin) will help + I had no problem converting T4 to T3 when I took T4 alone.
    THe thing with T3 is not to take too much of it, just take enough to do the job. THe main issue is this...does T3 really gets to the cells and does the cells respond to it?
    From my understanding muscle cells and other cells in general if they are bombarded with certain substances it will shut down receptor sites to basically protect themselves from damage. The entire approach that worked for me was to
    1. reduce glucose thus reducing insulin release and increase glucagon production and help receptor and cell healing
    2. thin out the blood and lower the signal load to these cells, like ldl particles, trigs, chemicals.
    So, basically eating tons of vegetables, goods fats, low carbs daily for months at the time along with vits and minerals did the trick. At one point I was eatin so low carb that my liver was dumping a bunch of glucose in my blood stream. THat;s a good sign, then you know the liver is steping up its processes to make glucose instead of making trigs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    THe thing with T3 is not to take too much of it, just take enough to do the job. THe main issue is this...does T3 really gets to the cells and does the cells respond to it?
    From my understanding muscle cells and other cells in general if they are bombarded with certain substances it will shut down receptor sites to basically protect themselves from damage. The entire approach that worked for me was to
    1. reduce glucose thus reducing insulin release and increase glucagon production and help receptor and cell healing
    2. thin out the blood and lower the signal load to these cells, like ldl particles, trigs, chemicals.
    So, basically eating tons of vegetables, goods fats, low carbs daily for months at the time along with vits and minerals did the trick. At one point I was eatin so low carb that my liver was dumping a bunch of glucose in my blood stream. THat;s a good sign, then you know the liver is steping up its processes to make glucose instead of making trigs.
    I am taking 50mcg of T3 currently. I am going to be experimenting with NDT (natural dessicated thyroid) which has T1, T2, T3, T4, calcitonin, and combining it with a lower dose of T3 to see if it will be more effective than T3 alone. Last year, I converted from T4 to T3 too well and suppressed my TSH to 0.09 (which is a bit too low) - even better than when I was on T3 alone. Running an AAS like test cyp and deca will prevent the catabolic effects of T3, something I did not have before.

    Not on statins nor ever will be. Unless you have genetic tendency (i.e. familial hypercholesterolemia), this can be fixed by diet and lifestyle modification. Will be trying straight niacin in future, probably a much lower dose though, like 50-100mg. No-flush niacin (inositol hexonicotinate) has no effect on lipids [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23351578].

    Regarding the exo HGH, by my taking proper steps, I mean eating right, eating VL carb and not eating any carbs right after a GH injection, I think I can mute the IR. How can I become IR if I keep my carbs >50g? The IR rom HGH can be reversed by eating low carb for a while or by using metformin to decrease the insulin response the body has to carbs for a duration of time to restore the body's sensitivity to insulin. As long as you are getting your glucose levels tested and they are showing fine then you don't have anything to worry about. HGH, as I recall, is also catabolic BIGTIME to adipose tissue to site injections and will keep fat from accumulating in that area. I know this for a fact because I experienced it myself when I used GH 10 years ago, but in minute amounts. Also - I would limit usage to only do a 4-6 mos. cycle. As we already spoke of my stack using test cyp/deca and HGH, I think that if I take more insulin-sensitizing agents like green coffee, ALA, or even metformin during GH injections, that should help reduce any effects of IR.
    I need the lipolytic effects and the better protein synthesis that HGH can provide.
    Also testosterone itself will help reduce IR: [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16728551] which will help offset the IR effects from HGH as well.

    To sum up, this is what I read:
    For the insulin resistance that is possible:
    conservative - 300mg of Alpha Lipoic Acid and 200 - 300mcgs of Chromium Picolinate
    moderate - 15mg of Actos - a prescription med to increase insulin sensitivity, Glucophage (Metformin) to dispose of excess glucose and increase uptake in muscles. [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14983408]
    aggressive - add a few IU's of insulin to your HGH cycle

    I wonder if adding IGF1-lr3 would work in suppressing IR also?


    Also, as I posted on earlier - to avoid a prolonged release pattern that can lead the user towards type II diabetes, due to chronic elevations in blood glucose, GH should be pulsed every 4-5 hours, using IM injections as opposed to subq, with at least one day off, every other day. The side effects of GH use can be ameliorated by utilizing the correct dosing protocol.

    Supplements: I take handfuls of them daily - all for specific purposes, and many are necessary because I have a genetic methylation defect. It is all based on blood work, never randomly. But since you brought up the issue of muscle cells and that if they are bombarded with certain substances, such will shut down receptor sites to basically protect themselves from damage. - I wonder if so many supps could be clogging them up, making it harder for the liver to process fats. Don't know if this is even possible. I can cycle off some., but I need to stay on the essentials daily. I also use many supplements to help anticoagulate my blood.

    What macro amounts and calories would you think I should be at?
    I'm thinking this based on these stats:

    Age: 53
    Ht: 5-7
    Wt: 175
    BF: 25%-29%

    Calories: 1600
    PRO: 40% - 160g
    CHO: 10% - 40g (or less)
    FAT: 50% - 89g

    Sort of a semi-keto diet, but the protein is much higher and fats more moderate because I lost some lean mass and gained fat for the same weight. For the last year, I train fasted and only take 10-20g BCAAs to help burn fat stores and don't eat until pwo. But if my cells are impaired as you say, this may be why I can't even burn fat in a fed state.

    What are your thoughts on HIIT cardio? When I was much younger, I leaned out quickly doing cardio. Not any longer.

    Observation: After drinking a homemade brew today for lowering blood pressure (celery/beet juice/1 tsp pomegranate concentrate, etc.), within 30 min. my BG shot up to nearly 160. I drank a couple oz. of apple cider vinegar and brought it down to 97 within 30 min.




    25 T3 daily (optional) but recomnded with GH - why?


    What I cannot understand is how I could have developed fatty liver and IR from eating clean carbs and whole fruits (not fruit juices). That doesn't happen in a healthy person.
    The only cause then could be chronic hypothyroidism over many years leading to decreased insulin sensitivity and then IR. Sound plausible?
    [hindawi.com/journals/jtr/2011/152850/]

    Since my a1c and FBG have been very normal, but my LDL-P/APO B is still elevated, I wonder if Glucophage XL (extended release metformin) would help restore insulin sensitvity, reducing the amount of glucose my intestines absorb, and turning down my liver's glucose production. Lower blood sugar means lower insulin, which means my body stores less fat, and is now burning my fat stores for fuel! Only problem is that it looks like Metformin can lower T as some studies have shown.

    Also -for an AI, would you recommend raloxifene over adex?

    What do you think?
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    I am taking 50mcg of T3 currently. I am going to be experimenting with NDT (natural dessicated thyroid) which has T1, T2, T3, T4, calcitonin, and combining it with a lower dose of T3 to see if it will be more effective than T3 alone. Last year, I converted from T4 to T3 too well and suppressed my TSH to 0.09 (which is a bit too low) - even better than when I was on T3 alone. Running an AAS like test cyp and deca will prevent the catabolic effects of T3, something I did not have before.

    Not on statins nor ever will be. Unless you have genetic tendency (i.e. familial hypercholesterolemia), this can be fixed by diet and lifestyle modification. Will be trying straight niacin in future, probably a much lower dose though, like 50-100mg. No-flush niacin (inositol hexonicotinate) has no effect on lipids [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23351578].

    Regarding the exo HGH, by my taking proper steps, I mean eating right, eating VL carb and not eating any carbs right after a GH injection, I think I can mute the IR. How can I become IR if I keep my carbs <50g? The IR rom HGH can be reversed by eating low carb for a while or by using metformin to decrease the insulin response the body has to carbs for a duration of time to restore the body's sensitivity to insulin. As long as you are getting your glucose levels tested and they are showing fine then you don't have anything to worry about. HGH, as I recall, is also catabolic BIGTIME to adipose tissue to site injections and will keep fat from accumulating in that area. I know this for a fact because I experienced it myself when I used GH 10 years ago, but in minute amounts. Also - I would limit usage to only do a 4-6 mos. cycle. As we already spoke of my stack using test cyp/deca and HGH, I think that if I take more insulin-sensitizing agents like green coffee, ALA, or even metformin during GH injections, that should help reduce any effects of IR.
    I need the lipolytic effects and the better protein synthesis that HGH can provide.
    Also testosterone itself will help reduce IR: [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16728551] which will help offset the IR effects from HGH as well.

    To sum up, this is what I read:
    For the insulin resistance that is possible:
    conservative - 300mg of Alpha Lipoic Acid and 200 - 300mcgs of Chromium Picolinate
    moderate - 15mg of Actos - a prescription med to increase insulin sensitivity, Glucophage (Metformin) to dispose of excess glucose and increase uptake in muscles. [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14983408]
    aggressive - add a few IU's of insulin to your HGH cycle

    I wonder if adding IGF1-lr3 would work in suppressing IR also?

    Also, as I posted on earlier - to avoid a prolonged release pattern that can lead the user towards type II diabetes, due to chronic elevations in blood glucose, GH should be pulsed every 4-5 hours, using IM injections as opposed to subq, with at least one day off, every other day. The side effects of GH use can be ameliorated by utilizing the correct dosing protocol.

    Supplements: I take handfuls of them daily - all for specific purposes, and many are necessary because I have a genetic methylation defect. It is all based on blood work, never randomly. But since you brought up the issue of muscle cells and that if they are bombarded with certain substances, such will shut down receptor sites to basically protect themselves from damage. - I wonder if so many supps could be clogging them up, making it harder for the liver to process fats. Don't know if this is even possible. I can cycle off some., but I need to stay on the essentials daily. I also use many supplements to help anticoagulate my blood.

    What macro amounts and calories would you think I should be at?
    I'm thinking this based on these stats:

    Age: 53
    Ht: 5-7
    Wt: 175
    BF: 25%-29%

    Calories: 1600
    PRO: 40% - 160g
    CHO: 10% - 40g (or less)
    FAT: 50% - 89g


    Sort of a semi-keto diet, but the protein is much higher and fats more moderate because I lost some lean mass and gained fat for the same weight. For the last year, I train fasted and only take 10-20g BCAAs to help burn fat stores and don't eat until pwo. But if my cells are impaired as you say, this may be why I can't even burn fat in a fed state.

    What are your thoughts on HIIT cardio? When I was much younger, I leaned out quickly doing cardio. Not any longer.

    Observation: After drinking a homemade brew today for lowering blood pressure (celery/beet juice/1 tsp pomegranate concentrate, etc.), within 30 min. my BG shot up to nearly 160. I drank a couple oz. of apple cider vinegar and brought it down to 97 within 30 min.

    You mentioned that T3 daily is recommended with GH. I've read that T4 is needed, not T3, as HGH increases the conversion rate of T4 into T3.

    What I cannot understand is how I could have developed fatty liver and IR from eating clean carbs and whole fruits (not fruit juices). That doesn't happen in a healthy person.
    The only cause then could be chronic hypothyroidism over many years leading to decreased insulin sensitivity and then IR. Sound plausible?
    [hindawi.com/journals/jtr/2011/152850/]

    Since my a1c and FBG have been very normal, but my LDL-P/APO B is still elevated, I wonder if Glucophage XL (extended release metformin) would help restore insulin sensitvity, reducing the amount of glucose my intestines absorb, and turning down my liver's glucose production. Lower blood sugar means lower insulin, which means my body stores less fat, and is now burning my fat stores for fuel! Only problem is that it looks like Metformin can lower T as some studies have shown.

    Also -for an AI, would you recommend raloxifene over adex?

    Bottom line is that your body can't store fat unless your blood sugar levels are elevated. So you don't have to count calories until you get to really low body fat levels.

    What do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    THe thing with T3 is not to take too much of it, just take enough to do the job. THe main issue is this...does T3 really gets to the cells and does the cells respond to it?
    From my understanding muscle cells and other cells in general if they are bombarded with certain substances it will shut down receptor sites to basically protect themselves from damage. The entire approach that worked for me was to
    1. reduce glucose thus reducing insulin release and increase glucagon production and help receptor and cell healing
    2. thin out the blood and lower the signal load to these cells, like ldl particles, trigs, chemicals.
    So, basically eating tons of vegetables, goods fats, low carbs daily for months at the time along with vits and minerals did the trick. At one point I was eatin so low carb that my liver was dumping a bunch of glucose in my blood stream. THat;s a good sign, then you know the liver is steping up its processes to make glucose instead of making trigs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    THe thing with T3 is not to take too much of it, just take enough to do the job. THe main issue is this...does T3 really gets to the cells and does the cells respond to it?
    From my understanding muscle cells and other cells in general if they are bombarded with certain substances it will shut down receptor sites to basically protect themselves from damage. The entire approach that worked for me was to
    1. reduce glucose thus reducing insulin release and increase glucagon production and help receptor and cell healing
    2. thin out the blood and lower the signal load to these cells, like ldl particles, trigs, chemicals.
    So, basically eating tons of vegetables, goods fats, low carbs daily for months at the time along with vits and minerals did the trick. At one point I was eatin so low carb that my liver was dumping a bunch of glucose in my blood stream. THat;s a good sign, then you know the liver is steping up its processes to make glucose instead of making trigs.
    I spent the last couple days researching IR, as I think it could be a major player in my inability to lose bf. I went into it in detail in this thread:
    [ allthingsmale.com/forum/showthread.php?22631-Stubborn-fat-loss-insulin-resistance-amp-metformin ]

    As I concluded in that thread, the problem is that in theory it's easy to point to IR, yet, in my case, the evidence suggests otherwise (normal a1c and FBG) - with the exception of my lipids, in particular LDL-P/APO B. So, if IR wasn't an issue, then why are these still elevated?

    When you've ruled everything else out as to cause (i.e. diet, activity level, thyroid, adrenal, testosterone, estrogen issues), where does that leave me?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    I am taking 50mcg of T3 currently. I am going to be experimenting with NDT (natural dessicated thyroid) which has T1, T2, T3, T4, calcitonin, and combining it with a lower dose of T3 to see if it will be more effective than T3 alone. Last year, I converted from T4 to T3 too well and suppressed my TSH to 0.09 (which is a bit too low) - even better than when I was on T3 alone. Running an AAS like test cyp and deca will prevent the catabolic effects of T3, something I did not have before.
    if you are going to take 50mg T3 an anabolic will def help with the catabolic effects. Im not all that sure you need to take 50mg T3. THat seems a very high dose to me. 25mg is more along what I consider higher end zone for prolong use. But this is me


    Not on statins nor ever will be. Unless you have genetic tendency (i.e. familial hypercholesterolemia), this can be fixed by diet and lifestyle modification. Will be trying straight niacin in future, probably a much lower dose though, like 50-100mg. No-flush niacin (inositol hexonicotinate) has no effect on lipids [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23351578].
    It's up to you. Im not crazy about statins either that's why I take RYR and works just fine. Niacin I take to lower LDL. It works with RYR

    Regarding the exo HGH, by my taking proper steps, I mean eating right, eating VL carb and not eating any carbs right after a GH injection, I think I can mute the IR. How can I become IR if I keep my carbs >50g? The IR rom HGH can be reversed by eating low carb for a while or by using metformin to decrease the insulin response the body has to carbs for a duration of time to restore the body's sensitivity to insulin. As long as you are getting your glucose levels tested and they are showing fine then you don't have anything to worry about. HGH, as I recall, is also catabolic BIGTIME to adipose tissue to site injections and will keep fat from accumulating in that area. I know this for a fact because I experienced it myself when I used GH 10 years ago, but in minute amounts. Also - I would limit usage to only do a 4-6 mos. cycle. As we already spoke of my stack using test cyp/deca and HGH, I think that if I take more insulin-sensitizing agents like green coffee, ALA, or even metformin during GH injections, that should help reduce any effects of IR.
    I need the lipolytic effects and the better protein synthesis that HGH can provide.
    Also testosterone itself will help reduce IR: [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16728551] which will help offset the IR effects from HGH as well.
    Yes you right limit the use of GH to 5 on 2 off for 4-6 months and you will be ok. What dosage are you running GH at?

    To sum up, this is what I read:
    For the insulin resistance that is possible:
    conservative - 300mg of Alpha Lipoic Acid and 200 - 300mcgs of Chromium Picolinate
    moderate - 15mg of Actos - a prescription med to increase insulin sensitivity, Glucophage (Metformin) to dispose of excess glucose and increase uptake in muscles. [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14983408]
    aggressive - add a few IU's of insulin to your HGH cycle
    That sums it up. I like that aggressive choice.

    I wonder if adding IGF1-lr3 would work in suppressing IR also?
    I doubt but im only 90% sure on this one


    Also, as I posted on earlier - to avoid a prolonged release pattern that can lead the user towards type II diabetes, due to chronic elevations in blood glucose, GH should be pulsed every 4-5 hours, using IM injections as opposed to subq, with at least one day off, every other day. The side effects of GH use can be ameliorated by utilizing the correct dosing protocol.
    Correct, use IM injections and do your shots post workout.

    Supplements: I take handfuls of them daily - all for specific purposes, and many are necessary because I have a genetic methylation defect. It is all based on blood work, never randomly. But since you brought up the issue of muscle cells and that if they are bombarded with certain substances, such will shut down receptor sites to basically protect themselves from damage. - I wonder if so many supps could be clogging them up, making it harder for the liver to process fats. Don't know if this is even possible. I can cycle off some., but I need to stay on the essentials daily. I also use many supplements to help anticoagulate my blood.
    It is possible. Cycling on/off of them is a good idea.

    What macro amounts and calories would you think I should be at?
    I'm thinking this based on these stats:

    Age: 53
    Ht: 5-7
    Wt: 175
    BF: 25%-29%

    Calories: 1600
    PRO: 40% - 160g
    CHO: 10% - 40g (or less)
    FAT: 50% - 89g

    Sort of a semi-keto diet, but the protein is much higher and fats more moderate because I lost some lean mass and gained fat for the same weight. For the last year, I train fasted and only take 10-20g BCAAs to help burn fat stores and don't eat until pwo. But if my cells are impaired as you say, this may be why I can't even burn fat in a fed state.
    THis could be the case. Im inclined to think that you are IR and heading towards type 2. Sometimes blood work may take a while to catch up. For all we know the pancreas may need to put out more insulin that has less effect. The fact that your BG spikes to 160 is heading for diabetes.

    What are your thoughts on HIIT cardio? When I was much younger, I leaned out quickly doing cardio. Not any longer.
    It is good for heart health, and it does help with some fat loss. It wont hurt to do it

    Observation: After drinking a homemade brew today for lowering blood pressure (celery/beet juice/1 tsp pomegranate concentrate, etc.), within 30 min. my BG shot up to nearly 160. I drank a couple oz. of apple cider vinegar and brought it down to 97 within 30 min.
    You should not be drinking any juice or simple sugars at all. If you have doubts about type 2 or IR this experiment basically just nailed it. For that BG to come down that quick something is not right unless your pancreas just dumped a ton of insulin which at this fast rate most of that sugar became fat.How many grams of sugar do you think was in that drink? I heard about apple cider vinegar helping with blood glucose but I dont know enough about it in how it works to advise on it. Nonetheless, your BG should not spike that high.




    25 T3 daily (optional) but recomnded with GH - why?
    HGH and anabolics for that matter down regulates T3. High HGH levels are observed in starving ppl which also means lower t3 to preserve energy. Since you want to trick the body you have to add T3.


    What I cannot understand is how I could have developed fatty liver and IR from eating clean carbs and whole fruits (not fruit juices). That doesn't happen in a healthy person.
    You are right it doesnt happen in healthy ppl who can process glucose. For some reason you cant process glucose very well. Bad lipid panel tells a story and so it's you inability to lose weight. Im not sure why this happens..maybe genetic, too much food intake, and liver producing too many trigs through an imbalance. It takes years to get here and will take a while to reverse it. Good news is that it's reversible. It may take a while but you can do it.
    The only cause then could be chronic hypothyroidism over many years leading to decreased insulin sensitivity and then IR. Sound plausible?
    [hindawi.com/journals/jtr/2011/152850/]
    Possible. Thyroid does play a role in chlesterol maintenance and cell methabolism.

    Since my a1c and FBG have been very normal, but my LDL-P/APO B is still elevated, I wonder if Glucophage XL (extended release metformin) would help restore insulin sensitvity, reducing the amount of glucose my intestines absorb, and turning down my liver's glucose production. Lower blood sugar means lower insulin, which means my body stores less fat, and is now burning my fat stores for fuel! Only problem is that it looks like Metformin can lower T as some studies have shown.
    Sounds like a down the road tool to use if you not successul with the HGH, Cyp combo. If you keep your liver glycogen stores on the low side it wont be able to dump all that much glucose.


    Also -for an AI, would you recommend raloxifene over adex?
    Adex

    What do you think?
    I think you def can benefit from HGH, cyp,deca adex combo. It is imperative to control your cholesterol any way you preffer before you start. Anabolics will elevate it further if not under control. If you are going to take anabolics, increase protein intake to 250g or even 300g daily. Between the anabolics and HGH protein synthesis will go up a lot. Use good fats for energy. Fat doesnt have any barriers to be utilized by cells as energy. Eat some carbs the amount is up to you, I suggest 50-75 daily with 2 days a week no carbs. You should also increase you total caloric intake on anbolics starting with 2500/day and see how it goes. Dont worry if the weight initially goes up. If it;s muscle that's good. Then later once fat loss occurs weight will drop.
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    Bottom line is that your body can't store fat unless your blood sugar levels are elevated. So you don't have to count calories until you get to really low body fat levels.

    Bingo!!! That is correct.To store fat one needs insulin to open the door of the fat cell. To burn fat then you need glucagon. That's the other key. And when you get to lower body fat calories are not lowered but the cho/pro/fat ratios will be changed. As your body fat gets lower calories will need to be increased somewhat actually as your methabolism speeds up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I think you def can benefit from HGH, cyp,deca adex combo. It is imperative to control your cholesterol any way you preffer before you start. Anabolics will elevate it further if not under control. If you are going to take anabolics, increase protein intake to 250g or even 300g daily. Between the anabolics and HGH protein synthesis will go up a lot. Use good fats for energy. Fat doesnt have any barriers to be utilized by cells as energy. Eat some carbs the amount is up to you, I suggest 50-75 daily with 2 days a week no carbs. You should also increase you total caloric intake on anbolics starting with 2500/day and see how it goes. Dont worry if the weight initially goes up. If it;s muscle that's good. Then later once fat loss occurs weight will drop.
    Right now, 50mcg T3 seems to be necessary to get enough T3 into the cells and get my FT3 levels where they need to be. I will be adding dessicated thyroid to help since it has T1, T2, T3, and T4 and probably cutting back on the T3 since I don't have a problem converting T4 to T3. Also, since testosterone & rhGH will depress thyroid function, I need to keep my levels in check, I will probably always need to keep on some for or combination of thyroid HRT.

    Are you using hexonicotinate or regular niacin and how much?

    I'm thinking to front load the GH to start the lipolysis, I should start with 4iu and then taper down. What do you think? It's amazing how many using it have no clue about the IR it can cause. I will hope my low carb diet will suffice. If not, then I might need to try metformin.

    Regarding an effective AI with the LEAST amount of sides, do you still recommend adex? Raloxifene is a SERM that is supposed to be very effective in helping reduce up breast tissue. It also lowers LDL:
    [musclediscussion.com/steroid-profiles/50402-raloxifene.html]

    The thing I can't understand is that my last E2 was only 6, yet I still have a LOT of breast tissue that looks like gyno, but I think it's more just fat accumulation. Here are some prior thread in which I posted some upper torso pics:
    [allthingsmale.com/forum/showthread.php?21363-Stubborn-man-boobs&highlight=stubborn+man+b oobs]
    [forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148779483&p=9 61276073#post961276073]

    The bottom line is that if I have a genetic tendency to store a lot of breast fat, I think I may have a tendency to develop gyno from AAS since I already have man boobs. [bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/steroids/20125-raloxifene-great-solution-gyno.html]

    Again, if you look at my free T & E2 is practically non-existent, probably because the SHBG is too high: [box.com/s/iyg8sw10mfrcg1mtgq5l] and it's the FREE T that is the more biologically important vs TOTAL T - yet another stron argument why my fat loss and muscle gain has been lacking!
    HERE IS MY FREE & BIO T CALCULATION: [box.com/files/0/f/913527540/1/f_8390318894]

    What do you think?

    I recently began juicing fresh celery and other veggies to bring down my BP as a therapeutic measure. Maybe use less and will measure BG again. That drink that shot it up to 160 was way too much juice. You asked how many grams of natural sugar in that drink. I would estimate maybe 20g. ACV helps block digestive enzymes that convert carbohydrates into sugar. It works in me. What I should do next time is use less AND use about 2-3 oz. ACV and then measure BG to see if much of a spike.

    Regarding using deca along with T - Shouldn't I still be concerned with even HPTA suppression than with test alone? A friend of mine just recently finished a cycle of T along with tren and after stopping it, feels like he lost his libido and other symptoms. Thoughts?

    BTW, just happened on this article that berberine (which I'm already taking @ 1g daily) is better than metformin: [life-enhancement.com/magazine/article/2439-berberine-is-superior-to-metformin]

    I repeated the fresh celery/cucumber juice experiment. Conclusion: 30pt spike in 30 min., then dropped back to baseline within 45 min. Only thing that could've skewed this is the berberine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Right now, 50mcg T3 seems to be necessary to get enough T3 into the cells and get my FT3 levels where they need to be. I will be adding dessicated thyroid to help since it has T1, T2, T3, and T4 and probably cutting back on the T3 since I don't have a problem converting T4 to T3. Also, since testosterone & rhGH will depress thyroid function, I need to keep my levels in check, I will probably always need to keep on some for or combination of thyroid HRT.
    Interesting, I know someone who takes T4 and T3 combined. Increased T3 to 25mg and lost 10lbs and now it stopped. We discussed obtions and decided to lower it down to 12.5 for 8 weeks and see what happens then maybe increase it again to 25. I'll keep you posted of the results. At this point do what you need to do to keep levels stable

    Are you using hexonicotinate or regular niacin and how much?
    Hexaniacinate. 1500mg daily Or 3 capsules

    I'm thinking to front load the GH to start the lipolysis, I should start with 4iu and then taper down. What do you think? It's amazing how many using it have no clue about the IR it can cause. I will hope my low carb diet will suffice. If not, then I might need to try metformin.
    hmm, no. THe other way around. Start low and slowly build up to desired dosage. Take a few weeks between upping the dose. I know many ppl just dont read enough or care all that much to properly do something like this.They just do it

    Regarding an effective AI with the LEAST amount of sides, do you still recommend adex? Raloxifene is a SERM that is supposed to be very effective in helping reduce up breast tissue. It also lowers LDL:
    [musclediscussion.com/steroid-profiles/50402-raloxifene.html]
    Adex in small amounts is fine. If you worry about lipids aromasin is better. Relox is a SERM, besically it does nothing to reduce the production of estrogen only binds to breast tissue receptors. Not all that good for your purpose.

    The thing I can't understand is that my last E2 was only 6, yet I still have a LOT of breast tissue that looks like gyno, but I think it's more just fat accumulation. Here are some prior thread in which I posted some upper torso pics:
    [allthingsmale.com/forum/showthread.php?21363-Stubborn-man-boobs&highlight=stubborn+man+b oobs]
    [forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148779483&p=9 61276073#post961276073]
    Fat is fat it will go away when you lower the entire body fat. E2 will go up with anabolics but doesnt necessarely means only E2 will give you man boobs. Fat gain will do that on its own.

    The bottom line is that if I have a genetic tendency to store a lot of breast fat, I think I may have a tendency to develop gyno from AAS since I already have man boobs. [bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/steroids/20125-raloxifene-great-solution-gyno.html]
    You can take relox if you want but still need adex or aromasin.

    Again, if you look at my free T & E2 is practically non-existent, probably because the SHBG is too high: [box.com/s/iyg8sw10mfrcg1mtgq5l] and it's the FREE T that is the more biologically important vs TOTAL T - yet another stron argument why my fat loss and muscle gain has been lacking!
    HERE IS MY FREE & BIO T CALCULATION: [box.com/files/0/f/913527540/1/f_8390318894]
    Im not sure why E2 is so low, however once you will be taking anabolics the increase T will yield more E2. If you want start your cycle first then test E2 and see.

    What do you think?

    I recently began juicing fresh celery and other veggies to bring down my BP as a therapeutic measure. Maybe use less and will measure BG again. That drink that shot it up to 160 was way too much juice. You asked how many grams of natural sugar in that drink. I would estimate maybe 20g. ACV helps block digestive enzymes that convert carbohydrates into sugar. It works in me. What I should do next time is use less AND use about 2-3 oz. ACV and then measure BG to see if much of a spike.
    160 is a bit on the high side so you just have to watch it if it spikes that high I would reconsider drinking it even if it helps with other factors. THe IR is maybe the cause of many problems you are trying to fix.

    Regarding using deca along with T - Shouldn't I still be concerned with even HPTA suppression than with test alone? A friend of mine just recently finished a cycle of T along with tren and after stopping it, feels like he lost his libido and other symptoms. Thoughts?
    yeah, get caber or dostinex. It helps with prolactin from deca, and gives the natural test a slight boost.

    BTW, just happened on this article that berberine (which I'm already taking @ 1g daily) is better than metformin: [life-enhancement.com/magazine/article/2439-berberine-is-superior-to-metformin]
    I have to look into it. thanks

    I repeated the fresh celery/cucumber juice experiment. Conclusion: 30pt spike in 30 min., then dropped back to baseline within 45 min. Only thing that could've skewed this is the berberine.
    so 30pt means it went up to 130? Hmm so the only thing different was the berberine?
    How many gr of sugar is in this drink?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    so 30pt means it went up to 130? Hmm so the only thing different was the berberine?
    How many gr of sugar is in this drink?
    Sorry, the FBG was 91 and spiked to 121. Not too bad, I thought, but then the natural sugar content is very low, around 15g I would say.

    Tell me more about caber and dostinex; hate adding more drugs, not familiar with either.
  

  
 

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