Normal T, low Free T, High SHBG - TRT or not?

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  1. ah, now I have a much better picture of what you did.
    First off, you are starting to cross over from HRT to bodybuilding. If you want to lean out like that and build up your physique I think bodybuilding is better suited. You dont have to go crazy but the approach need to be a bit different.
    Doing 75 T3 without anabolics most definitely burned muscle unfortunately. You also have a rebounding effect from that so my advice is to slowly cut back on the t3 all the way to nothing and stop it. Let the body bounce back.
    Procure some test and HGH if you want to get into it like that and do a cycle. Once on the cycle you can do;
    250mg of test per week
    .25 arimidex
    1IU GH daily (5on 2 off)
    25 T3 daily (optional) but recomnded with GH

    And yes, you may have to lower your food intake for a while till thyroid is bouncing back if you dont want to get too fat.

    With the diet already in check and cardio you should have some nice results.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    ah, now I have a much better picture of what you did.
    First off, you are starting to cross over from HRT to bodybuilding. If you want to lean out like that and build up your physique I think bodybuilding is better suited. You dont have to go crazy but the approach need to be a bit different.
    Doing 75 T3 without anabolics most definitely burned muscle unfortunately. You also have a rebounding effect from that so my advice is to slowly cut back on the t3 all the way to nothing and stop it. Let the body bounce back.
    Procure some test and HGH if you want to get into it like that and do a cycle. Once on the cycle you can do;
    250mg of test per week
    .25 arimidex
    1IU GH daily (5on 2 off)
    25 T3 daily (optional) but recomnded with GH

    And yes, you may have to lower your food intake for a while till thyroid is bouncing back if you dont want to get too fat.

    With the diet already in check and cardio you should have some nice results.
    Thanks for always responding, V. I really appreciate your insight. I can always use more no matter how much research I do.

    Well, actually, my only HRT was running T3 if you conisder that HRT. That's it. The goal was to optimize thyroid function and metabolism by clearing out excess rT3 and suppressing TSH - both accomplished finally after 2.5 years of taking sustained-release T3, and then straight T3 as of late. As far as BBing - I've been resistance training since the age of 24 when I was my leanest and lightest. Had pretty good definition and vascularity. But I never trained hard enough and had many stumbling blocks, problems with diet, food allergies, gut infections, etc. and then major business-related stress - all of which took me off course from really getting into training. Now that all that crap is behind me - with the exception of some manageable health issues - I am back full circle, picking BBing back up where I left off in my mid-20s - but now at 53.

    I have a buddy doing a GHRP-2/GHRP-6/Mod-GRF stack per my suggestion. He was previously running rHGH @ 2IUs and then stopped and started the peptide combo when I convinced him (and myself even though I'm not on anything as of yet) that it's much more effective and safe to use secretagogues that stimulate the pituitary to makes it's own GH in a pulsatile fashion as opposed to injecting frank rHGH daily (many may disagree and tell me to go with the real deal, but there are many sides with it). My buddy's baseline IGF-1 was sub 200. On rHGH it raised to mid 200s. On the peptide combo, it spiked to mid 400s! He's also running a test cyp/prop/phenylprop combo once every couple weeks (but his E2 is too high and his TT shot down from 1500 to 350! He is getting HPTA suppression, I'd say. Should be using some HCG or Clomid, shouldn't he? He's 9 years younger than me and his bf is 13%.

    Have you run any of the GHRPs and GHRHs and compared body comp with using rHGH? Some argue that peptides aren't as effective for older guys like me, but I think they're referring to sermorelin which is pretty much useless by itself since the GH spike last only seconds.

    In any case, yes, I was ALWAYS concerned over the catabolic effects of T3 and that you should never run it w/o AAS. But my "specialty" doc didn't say much to that, probably because he doesn't know this. My local HRT doc, however, loves test cyp, takes it himself (as well as HGH), and prescribes it with a small dose of deca (nandrolone). He has been suggesting it for a while and especially with my almost non-existent FT - as has every friend of mine.

    But again - looking at my normal TT and my pathetic FT levels (see my first post)- and taking into account the fact that there is no way in hell I can build the body I want no matter how hard I train and eat clean when the chemistry (FT) isn't available for adding lean mass and burning fat. You agree? Same goes for my IGF-1 which is around 200. Everything I've read says that TT levels needs to be at as close to 1000 and FT levels at the top of the range in order to add lean mass. My E2 is too low right now. That will change when I cycle up. I have some adex, but never had to use it.

    I never went full-bore on HRT (TRT and GHRT). I think I'm well past the point of needing to go for it. Heck, I'm 53, after all. Yes, my TT is not bad hovering between the mid 400s to 600s - but that means nothing if the FT is too low which it is. BUT - I've been reluctant to go on TRT because I'm paranoid I will permanently screw up something that needs no help: my libido and my sexual function. I think running HCG as Dr Crisler recommends would be the way to go to prevent testicular atrophy, hair loss, and long-term axis suppression. Also, exogenous T is know to suppress adrenal and thyroid function. Everybody jokes that I'm a professional procrastinator, but I just want to be very cautious because I've had a lot of health issues plague me over the years and I certainly don't need to do some irreparable harm to myself.

    What do you think?
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  3. Honestly I think you should go the BBing approach and do a 10week cycle thus keeping yourself away from TRT but still riping the benefits of aas.
    There are some interesting thoughts you went through but the difference between your body making something and taking externally is like night and day. If you want higher IGF levels take IGF-LR2, if you want higher test levels take test. The problem with stimulating your own body to produce something in excess is that there are feedback mechanisms that will prevent that from happening on a large scale. For this reason I really was never interested in any other peptides than HGH and IGF. Those 2 I can say, especially HGH made the biggest difference in growth.
    The story with GH is that our bodies seem to always bounce back from using it much better than testosterone. Not sure really why but it does. Thyroid seem to do the same.
    The part that you really need to pay close attention is the fatty liver and your diet. Now, just because you can tolerate low carb doesnt mean you shouldnt eat some fruit, veggies and occasional starch once in a while. I think youhave 2 goals right now, immediate goal is to pay close attention to your diet and liver values and longer term to loose body fat and change body composition.
    You def doing the research which is a great start.
    I really dont see the need for you to mess with those peptides you have mentioned or HCG. Those peptides are for ppl who cant afford or cant get real growth hormone imho. No offense to anybody
    Im sure they swear it works and what not but Im one of those ppl who looks at measuring results and sticks with compounds which are able to deliver time and time again and it's easy to control and understand.
    Those peptides are hardly researched and can cause more harm than good.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Honestly I think you should go the BBing approach and do a 10week cycle thus keeping yourself away from TRT but still riping the benefits of aas.
    But TRT is an AAS and you suggested it as part of a cycle above. I'm confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    The problem with stimulating your own body to produce something in excess is that there are feedback mechanisms that will prevent that from happening on a large scale. For this reason I really was never interested in any other peptides than HGH and IGF. Those 2 I can say, especially HGH made the biggest difference in growth.
    But the mechanism of negative feedback is why the science behind peptide secretatogogues makes so much more sense and is safer than running rHGH.

  5. Testosterone therapy is keeping levels within normal ranges. In bodybuilding, doing a cycle one would go beyond the normal ranges in order to accelerate the progress. That's why a cycle is only 10 weeks long then you would let your body normalize.

    When you say safer, based on what science? You stimulating an organ to produce something so in the scheme of things you still disrupting the normal function of the respctive body part. Dont be fooled by the up talk of some of these compounds as being safer, they are not.
    For example HCG, ok it stimulates the testies to make more testosterone so on paper is an great thing but is it? No it's not.It is very disruptive.
    The thing is that once you get into using these compounds yourself things are not as they appear to be on paper.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Testosterone therapy is keeping levels within normal ranges. In bodybuilding, doing a cycle one would go beyond the normal ranges in order to accelerate the progress. That's why a cycle is only 10 weeks long then you would let your body normalize.

    When you say safer, based on what science? You stimulating an organ to produce something so in the scheme of things you still disrupting the normal function of the respctive body part. Dont be fooled by the up talk of some of these compounds as being safer, they are not.
    For example HCG, ok it stimulates the testies to make more testosterone so on paper is an great thing but is it? No it's not.It is very disruptive.
    The thing is that once you get into using these compounds yourself things are not as they appear to be on paper.
    Understood what you mean now - that's why it's called a "cycle". Had a friend that did the following:
    test prop; 1cc im/per 7 days for 4wks then 1cc per 5 days for 3wks then 1cc per 3 days for 3wks then back to 1cc per 5 days for 3 weeks and then back to 1cc per 7 days...still there. The pyramid avoids the need for estrogen blockers.

    I hear what you're saying with some compounds, however, if I had to pick the lesser of two evils, I still think it would be peptides. Why? Because synthetic 22kDa GH has excessive duration and thus is vastly less healthy and safe than GHRH/GHRP. Again, the main pro argument on peptides is that they seem to enhance the body's own natural production of GH vs taking exogenous GH. It pulses as your body does naturally, so your body isn't doing anything unnatural. The con is that many report peptides being nowhere near as effective in recomping when compared to rHGH. Peptides themselves are not GH, and have a different side effect profile from actual GH itself in a bleed pattern. However it stands that those sides (cortisol, prolactin, hunger, gastric motility in some cases) are negligible in most people unlike synthetic GH sides. Peptides like Mod Grf (1-29)/GHRP allow for our bodies to release GH in the natural ordered pulsatile manner; rHGH, especially in high amounts, can keep systemic levels of GH elevated for prolonged periods of time. It is in this scenario that one could begin to experience unwanted signs and symptoms (CTS, antibodies to GH, water retention, elevated glucose, etc.). Also, with GH ,you are not getting the complete gh hormone, only part of it. Dat's forum is probably the most extensive for peptide research.

    Also - don't you mean IGF1LR3? Never heard of IGF1LR2.

    Then there are SARMs as a better alternative to T (no androgenic sides). Any thoughts on this as well?

    At the end of the day, this is all a science done through experimentation - and each of us has to commit to being the lab rat or not. Sounds like I will have to go through a long process to find out what works best for me, hopefully not at the expense of my health, as that would be defeating the very purpose of what I'm trying to do here.

  7. yes igflr3 and the more potent one igf-des. Got the number wrong.I think they do have an LR2 but that's not what I meant regardless.
    THat cycle is very inneficient. I can understand the approach about the no need of an AI but the ups and downs would be irritating to say the least.
    About GH, synthetic gh is fine if used correctly. I really didnt see any sides or damage from its use. Benefits have been awesome. It is also noted that injecting GH sub-q or IM does affect absorbtion rates and it is very easy to mimic the normal pulsing effect the body.



    As far as sarms, they work ok to rise test levels a little but from a bodybuilding perspective not strong enough. They also have their sides. Im not a fan of them but occasionally are a good bridge.

    I think, like you said you need to weigh the pros and cons of every approach and decide if the bodybuilding approach or HRT is a better fit for you. In the end, both have their challanges, and it's up to you how you want to mitigate the risks and rewards part of the equation.
    Regardless of the approach, if you look at the body as a full circle, at some point either approach will tap into that balance somewhere. With that said, my approach has been to tap at the tail end of this balance much like the finished product such as testosterone,GH, IGF. You want to tap into the signaling between hypothalmus and pituitary or somewhere around that area. To be honest the jury is still out on that, as far as the dosage and how safe that would be. Im not sure how easy would be to burn receptors on the pituitary or hypothalumus with peptides. For this reasons I dont touch stuff I dont know the full effect and the mechanism by which it works.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    yes igflr3 and the more potent one igf-des. Got the number wrong.I think they do have an LR2 but that's not what I meant regardless.
    THat cycle is very inneficient. I can understand the approach about the no need of an AI but the ups and downs would be irritating to say the least.
    About GH, synthetic gh is fine if used correctly. I really didnt see any sides or damage from its use. Benefits have been awesome. It is also noted that injecting GH sub-q or IM does affect absorbtion rates and it is very easy to mimic the normal pulsing effect the body.

    As far as sarms, they work ok to rise test levels a little but from a bodybuilding perspective not strong enough. They also have their sides. Im not a fan of them but occasionally are a good bridge.

    I think, like you said you need to weigh the pros and cons of every approach and decide if the bodybuilding approach or HRT is a better fit for you. In the end, both have their challanges, and it's up to you how you want to mitigate the risks and rewards part of the equation.
    Regardless of the approach, if you look at the body as a full circle, at some point either approach will tap into that balance somewhere. With that said, my approach has been to tap at the tail end of this balance much like the finished product such as testosterone,GH, IGF. You want to tap into the signaling between hypothalmus and pituitary or somewhere around that area. To be honest the jury is still out on that, as far as the dosage and how safe that would be. Im not sure how easy would be to burn receptors on the pituitary or hypothalumus with peptides. For this reasons I dont touch stuff I dont know the full effect and the mechanism by which it works.
    All points well taken.

    Can you post some links about the rHGH absorption rates and that it can mimic the natural pulsatile rhythms? The problem is the long bleed of GH:
    "SubQ injects (as the doctor would tell you to take your GH) creates a prolonged release pattern that can lead the user towards type II diabetes, due to chronic elevations in blood glucose. GH should be pulsed every 4-5 hours, using IM injections, whith at least one day off, every other day. The side effects of GH use can be ameliorated by utilizing the correct dosing protocol."

    This is a major contraindication against rhGH and is again the basis for why I was sold on peptides as a replacement, as a good GHRP/GHRH combo does not create this problem. Secretagogue peptides pose no long-term risk to pituitary gland function, nor is there any risk of overdose.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    yes igflr3 and the more potent one igf-des. Got the number wrong.I think they do have an LR2 but that's not what I meant regardless.
    THat cycle is very inneficient. I can understand the approach about the no need of an AI but the ups and downs would be irritating to say the least.
    About GH, synthetic gh is fine if used correctly. I really didnt see any sides or damage from its use. Benefits have been awesome. It is also noted that injecting GH sub-q or IM does affect absorbtion rates and it is very easy to mimic the normal pulsing effect the body.



    As far as sarms, they work ok to rise test levels a little but from a bodybuilding perspective not strong enough. They also have their sides. Im not a fan of them but occasionally are a good bridge.

    I think, like you said you need to weigh the pros and cons of every approach and decide if the bodybuilding approach or HRT is a better fit for you. In the end, both have their challanges, and it's up to you how you want to mitigate the risks and rewards part of the equation.
    Regardless of the approach, if you look at the body as a full circle, at some point either approach will tap into that balance somewhere. With that said, my approach has been to tap at the tail end of this balance much like the finished product such as testosterone,GH, IGF. You want to tap into the signaling between hypothalmus and pituitary or somewhere around that area. To be honest the jury is still out on that, as far as the dosage and how safe that would be. Im not sure how easy would be to burn receptors on the pituitary or hypothalumus with peptides. For this reasons I dont touch stuff I dont know the full effect and the mechanism by which it works.
    What were your before and after results with IGF-lr3? I've heard a lot of good things.

    Also - how long do you stay off cycle and what do you do for PCT? I'm assuming you cycle rHGH as well?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    All points well taken.

    Can you post some links about the rHGH absorption rates and that it can mimic the natural pulsatile rhythms? The problem is the long bleed of GH:
    "SubQ injects (as the doctor would tell you to take your GH) creates a prolonged release pattern that can lead the user towards type II diabetes, due to chronic elevations in blood glucose. GH should be pulsed every 4-5 hours, using IM injections, whith at least one day off, every other day. The side effects of GH use can be ameliorated by utilizing the correct dosing protocol."

    This is a major contraindication against rhGH and is again the basis for why I was sold on peptides as a replacement, as a good GHRP/GHRH combo does not create this problem. Secretagogue peptides pose no long-term risk to pituitary gland function, nor is there any risk of overdose.
    There are 2 ways to take GH.
    One way is to take a lower amount over extended periods of time (6-whatever months), the other is to take a greater amount over a shorter period (4-6 weeks).
    Im injections I find to be the best regardless, by trial and error and monitorting blood glucose one can see how the GH relesease.

    Problem is this, GH works well to preserve mass under low food intake. What ppl do is take GH and eat up a storm which brings the blood glucose into the equation as possible side effect. In that case, insulin can be used to deal with that issue but that's a more complicated matter all together.
    I think that some ppl dont understand the ramifications of these compounds in how it affects the body. When designing a cycle all these factors need to be considered. THat's why I think there is a lot of confusion about of what protocol works best.
    I dont save stuff I read about, it's from trial and error that I make my decissions on how I design cycles, and feedback from some ppl I know.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    What were your before and after results with IGF-lr3? I've heard a lot of good things.

    Also - how long do you stay off cycle and what do you do for PCT? I'm assuming you cycle rHGH as well?
    cant say what the results are per say because IGF is part of a broader cycle. It does however helps with sleep, making lean gains and fulness.
    Typical cycle 4-5 weeks and that's on top of taking HG along side. There is no PCT. It works better taking in conjunction with HGH, that's basically the PCT.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    cant say what the results are per say because IGF is part of a broader cycle. It does however helps with sleep, making lean gains and fulness.
    Typical cycle 4-5 weeks and that's on top of taking HG along side. There is no PCT. It works better taking in conjunction with HGH, that's basically the PCT.
    You can see from my body comp stats above that I need to drop a lot of fat. Do you think this cycle will help with eliminating the puffy or bloated look I've had since my early 30s and not lose LBM? I've never been able to get as lean as in my 20s no matter what diet or training program. And when I try to add mass, I add way more bf no matter how clean I eat. That has been my dilemma.

    Also - when on T and/or GH, I need to watch the following:

    - both exogenous T and GH can depress hormone and adrenal function
    - definitely the glycemic response to exogenous GH

  13. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    You can see from my body comp stats above that I need to drop a lot of fat. Do you think this cycle will help with eliminating the puffy or bloated look I've had since my early 30s and not lose LBM? I've never been able to get as lean as in my 20s no matter what diet or training program. And when I try to add mass, I add way more bf no matter how clean I eat. That has been my dilemma.

    Also - when on T and/or GH, I need to watch the following:

    - both exogenous T and GH can depress hormone and adrenal function
    - definitely the glycemic response to exogenous GH
    I understand your dilemma, however i can honestly say that your success is comprised 90% from your diet. Gh is not as big a factor in fat loss opposite of what ppl think. It helps but if you diet is the wrong diet GH wont do anything for you. Now, T will help especially free T is the one to watch out. Being bloated has to do with gut imbalances and inflamation. This can be corrected through both hormone manipulation and specific dietary needs.
    With the right combination of anabolics, exercises and a diet that matches your needs a lot of progress can be made and in time the bloat will go away as body fat decreases.

    What cycle are you thinking of doing?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I understand your dilemma, however i can honestly say that your success is comprised 90% from your diet. Gh is not as big a factor in fat loss opposite of what ppl think. It helps but if you diet is the wrong diet GH wont do anything for you. Now, T will help especially free T is the one to watch out. Being bloated has to do with gut imbalances and inflamation. This can be corrected through both hormone manipulation and specific dietary needs.
    With the right combination of anabolics, exercises and a diet that matches your needs a lot of progress can be made and in time the bloat will go away as body fat decreases.

    What cycle are you thinking of doing?
    I meant water or fat bloat, not digestive. My diet has been clean:
    Protein: 110-120g
    Carbs: <50g
    Fats: 80-90g

    Basically, paleo/keto. I do a 18hr IF & train fasted. I agree diet is 90%. Despite all this, I'm still SOFT. You would think with that low carb & keto, I'd be ripped. Neither I nor any of my friends can understand. I don't think age is as much a factor since I've been like this since my 30s. Could never get dry and hard no matter what I eat. The only thing I can think of that I haven't done is count calories so as to be certain I am at a deficit. Other than that, I have no idea what could be allowing me to store so much bodyfat other than consistently having a lack of free T for all this time. For some reason my metabolism must still not be partitioning macros efficiently otherwise I wouldn't be holding onto fat, let alone creating bodyfat with this type of diet. My gut feeling is that even if I consumed no more than 1000 calories a day - which is not sustainable as an ongoing diet - I still would not get my bf to even 15%. This tells me it's other factors. My first thought was that it was from having a sluggish thyroid. So even when I got my TSH down to the lowest it's ever been and my rT3 cleared using T3, the fat would quickly drop off. It didn't. Very frustrating. What's next? Sometimes I think I'm just screwed genetically.

    I would start test cyp possibly with a small dose of deca ( my doc actually prescribes this combo). Still not sure I'd do rhGH until giving the peptides a shot first. I heard the deca will help with tissue injury (shoulder bursitis) as well as T and GH, of course.

  15. I understand your frustration. Sometimes it's like a puzzle trying to figure this whole thing out.
    Bloat will go away with fat loss it's not a big deal however uncomfortable it may seem now.
    I believe that you are insulin resistant and have been for sometime now. At the same time, as the fat deposits grew larger it also impeded your body's ability to produce and use the right amount of hormones.

    From that food breakdown you dont eat a lot. This tells me that cells inside your body are shut down to normal nutrient partitioning as you mentioned, and that is a big problem. Normally, t3 does have an effect on geting them moving but perhaps is just an worse case of cellular damage than other cases.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I understand your frustration. Sometimes it's like a puzzle trying to figure this whole thing out.
    Bloat will go away with fat loss it's not a big deal however uncomfortable it may seem now.
    I believe that you are insulin resistant and have been for sometime now. At the same time, as the fat deposits grew larger it also impeded your body's ability to produce and use the right amount of hormones.

    From that food breakdown you dont eat a lot. This tells me that cells inside your body are shut down to normal nutrient partitioning as you mentioned, and that is a big problem. Normally, t3 does have an effect on geting them moving but perhaps is just an worse case of cellular damage than other cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I understand your frustration. Sometimes it's like a puzzle trying to figure this whole thing out.
    Bloat will go away with fat loss it's not a big deal however uncomfortable it may seem now.
    I believe that you are insulin resistant and have been for sometime now. At the same time, as the fat deposits grew larger it also impeded your body's ability to produce and use the right amount of hormones.

    From that food breakdown you dont eat a lot. This tells me that cells inside your body are shut down to normal nutrient partitioning as you mentioned, and that is a big problem. Normally, t3 does have an effect on geting them moving but perhaps is just an worse case of cellular damage than other cases.
    Good assessment on all! Now we're getting somewhere. Into the real nuts and bolts.

    Insulin resistance and behind it, leptin resistance, many of us have it. What exactly led you to think IR is a problem for me?

    This is another reason why I'm on VLC paleo/keto, the best diet for IR/LR. I read up a lot from Jack Kruse, the expert on this. And yes, increased adipocytes = increased inflammation = hormone imbalance (i.e. estrogen dominance, etc.). But if my a1c and FBG are good as you have seen, my post-prandial BG never goes higher than 130 (unless I eat >50g carbs in one meal), both my fasting insulin and leptin are very low -then why would this still be a problem? BTW, if rHGH increases insulin resistance, that's a problem. I need to increase insulin sensitivity.
    Becoming keto-adapted means that I've successfully replaced carbs with fat as my main source of fuel, and fat does not illicit an insulin response which is the key to remaining in ketosis. Perhaps eating too much protein? That will drive up insulin levels via gluconeogenesis.

    The diet I previously outlined is about 1350-1400 cals. My RMR is about 1500 give or take. My TDEE is about 2200 according to a calorimetry test I recently had done. That test also said my metabolism is...FAST. Go figure. On some days, my calorie intake will go up to 1800, mostly from fat. That still should be at a deficit. Somewhere along the line, my numbers are OFF and I must be still eating at a SURPLUS.

    When you're talking "cellular shutdown" or damage what exactly does that mean? Dysregulated nutrient partitioning? If we look at my not firing on all 8 cylinders, then we're talking about hypometabolism. Throw in chronic inflammation - which slows metabolism - and then that's a problem. My elevated CRP reflects some kind of chronic unknown inflammation we cannot identify, so this has also been an issue. Just read that the overall level of inflammation in the body is determined by the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fats in cell membranes. Due to regular fish oil supplementation, I have a surplus of n-3 EFAs (EPA./DHA) over n-6.

    But talking strictly about my RMR and macronutrient synthesis, you'd think T3 would come to the rescue, but it didn't do much by way of lipolysis. And when I upped the dose, I got some short and long-term sides, the worst being two blood clots in both legs within the last year which I attribute to too much T3 (and studies will back me up on this since I have zero genetic tendencies for this). IF should definitely help with nutrient partitioning. I think it all comes down to IR and tendency toward metabolic syndrome.

    Now, here's something else I should mention. And whether this factors into the equation even though my hormone levels fall within normal ranges is unknown. I was dx'd with ESS when I had an MRI of my brain done a few years back: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001389/ (add the www since I am unable to post links still).

    All the docs I've talked to says it's not an issue unless the pituitary doesn't function. Mine functions fine, otherwise, I'd be hypogonadal, etc., but who knows.

    On a side note, my diet when I was at my leanest in my med-20s was very similar in terms of types of foods, but consisted of a lot more carbs and calories than my current diet + I ate 3 meals then instead of 2 meals I'm doing now. Looks like I partitioned a lot better then than now.

    As you can see, I'm doing everything possible to be in a lipolytic state as opposed to a lipogenic state.
    Again, the only thing I have not done is consistently make sure my calories are under my RMR nor have I started a cycle of anything to this day. I lied. I tried Genotropin rhGH 10 years ago, but the dose was subpar (0.2mg) and all I recall it doing was cause localized lipolysis at the injection site. That's not even a cycle.

    I think the key is this: The more insulin "sensitive" you are, the better nutrients are partitioned in your favor.

    And you are right - this has been around a long time as evidenced by the dx of fatty liver (NAFLD) 3 years ago. It's going to take some time to reverse the damage. It is taking a lot longer than I though to purge all those FFAs from the liver than I thought. I'm hoping the T and GH will help escalate things in the right direction, however the insulin issue with GH is of concern.

    My body looks as if I ate crap, lots of carbs, and hardly worked out - certainly not the case which is highly discouraging. Again, this wan't the case in my 20s in which my hard work showed.

  17. Why i suggested 23andme test. There is an app.which was designed for looking at the 23andme test designed by a doctor and his wife who have an autistic son. I am actually working on their sons case probono. there are excepted to be 1-2 million people.getting the app at 12 bucks a pop. Do the.math..not asking for one.red cent..Once I balance their son which should not be difficult..word spreads quickly. I am.already doing genetic research which will potential save thousands of.life by getting the information out there. This will.make.hrt which is a great advancement.in.medicine look like minuscule. By doing 23andme you will see why you have NASH then corrected at source. By looking at the genetic snps you will also be finding out which supplements will compatible to your body and one causing potential harm. I have done a few hundred of these reports it will not be hard to isolate where the imbalances. You are probably asking who is this smuck? LOL. I have been asked to speak at upcoming conference with the best in the field of methylation in the United States.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Good assessment on all! Now we're getting somewhere. Into the real nuts and bolts.

    Insulin resistance and behind it, leptin resistance, many of us have it. What exactly led you to think IR is a problem for me?

    This is another reason why I'm on VLC paleo/keto, the best diet for IR/LR. I read up a lot from Jack Kruse, the expert on this. And yes, increased adipocytes = increased inflammation = hormone imbalance (i.e. estrogen dominance, etc.). But if my a1c and FBG are good as you have seen, my post-prandial BG never goes higher than 130 (unless I eat >50g carbs in one meal), both my fasting insulin and leptin are very low -then why would this still be a problem? BTW, if rHGH increases insulin resistance, that's a problem. I need to increase insulin sensitivity.
    Becoming keto-adapted means that I've successfully replaced carbs with fat as my main source of fuel, and fat does not illicit an insulin response which is the key to remaining in ketosis. Perhaps eating too much protein? That will drive up insulin levels via gluconeogenesis.

    The diet I previously outlined is about 1350-1400 cals. My RMR is about 1500 give or take. My TDEE is about 2200 according to a calorimetry test I recently had done. That test also said my metabolism is...FAST. Go figure. On some days, my calorie intake will go up to 1800, mostly from fat. That still should be at a deficit. Somewhere along the line, my numbers are OFF and I must be still eating at a SURPLUS.

    When you're talking "cellular shutdown" or damage what exactly does that mean? Dysregulated nutrient partitioning? If we look at my not firing on all 8 cylinders, then we're talking about hypometabolism. Throw in chronic inflammation - which slows metabolism - and then that's a problem. My elevated CRP reflects some kind of chronic unknown inflammation we cannot identify, so this has also been an issue. Just read that the overall level of inflammation in the body is determined by the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fats in cell membranes. Due to regular fish oil supplementation, I have a surplus of n-3 EFAs (EPA./DHA) over n-6.

    But talking strictly about my RMR and macronutrient synthesis, you'd think T3 would come to the rescue, but it didn't do much by way of lipolysis. And when I upped the dose, I got some short and long-term sides, the worst being two blood clots in both legs within the last year which I attribute to too much T3 (and studies will back me up on this since I have zero genetic tendencies for this). IF should definitely help with nutrient partitioning. I think it all comes down to IR and tendency toward metabolic syndrome.

    Now, here's something else I should mention. And whether this factors into the equation even though my hormone levels fall within normal ranges is unknown. I was dx'd with ESS when I had an MRI of my brain done a few years back: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001389/ (add the www since I am unable to post links still).

    All the docs I've talked to says it's not an issue unless the pituitary doesn't function. Mine functions fine, otherwise, I'd be hypogonadal, etc., but who knows.

    On a side note, my diet when I was at my leanest in my med-20s was very similar in terms of types of foods, but consisted of a lot more carbs and calories than my current diet + I ate 3 meals then instead of 2 meals I'm doing now. Looks like I partitioned a lot better then than now.

    As you can see, I'm doing everything possible to be in a lipolytic state as opposed to a lipogenic state.
    Again, the only thing I have not done is consistently make sure my calories are under my RMR nor have I started a cycle of anything to this day. I lied. I tried Genotropin rhGH 10 years ago, but the dose was subpar (0.2mg) and all I recall it doing was cause localized lipolysis at the injection site. That's not even a cycle.

    I think the key is this: The more insulin "sensitive" you are, the better nutrients are partitioned in your favor.
    And you are right - this has been around a long time as evidenced by the dx of fatty liver (NAFLD) 3 years ago. It's going to take some time to reverse the damage. It is taking a lot longer than I though to purge all those FFAs from the liver than I thought. I'm hoping the T and GH will help escalate things in the right direction, however the insulin issue with GH is of concern.

    My body looks as if I ate crap, lots of carbs, and hardly worked out - certainly not the case which is highly discouraging. Again, this wan't the case in my 20s in which my hard work showed.
    Finally we are geting to the bottom of this.
    I started to suspect insulin resistance after the t3 chronicle, and after you posted the food break down it confirmed it.
    That is correct what you said about being insulin sensitive working in your favor.
    I've done extensive research into inflamation and insulin resistance so much so, that I ended up taking a hard look into biochemistry to understand how and why part. WHat happens is that there are some pathways all cels in our body follows under different circumstances. What ppl do is upseting that balance through our diets favoring excessive food intake...especially carbs.
    When cells are bombarded with excessive carbohydrates and fructose things get really messy. Protein is ok and so it's fat intake but carbs are the issue. it is hard to explain how the cell works but in a nutshell, cells under the stress of too much glucose instead of making more ATP, it circumvents this process by shuting down insulin receptors and by passing nutrients directly to fats. Fructose, adds fuel to the fire because it doesnt need insulin to be processed! It goes to the liver to be broken down. Too much fructose then the liver dumps the glucose in the blood and stores it around itself(fatty liver). Also, fructose can pass through the cell and if not used for ATP production and it goes straight to fat storage (adipose fat). Once a person is in this state, cells are more concerned avoiding cellular damage rather than normal nutrient partitioning.
    Overall, humans are not meant to eat all these carbohydrates, period.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Finally we are geting to the bottom of this.
    I started to suspect insulin resistance after the t3 chronicle, and after you posted the food break down it confirmed it.
    That is correct what you said about being insulin sensitive working in your favor.
    I've done extensive research into inflamation and insulin resistance so much so, that I ended up taking a hard look into biochemistry to understand how and why part. WHat happens is that there are some pathways all cels in our body follows under different circumstances. What ppl do is upseting that balance through our diets favoring excessive food intake...especially carbs.
    When cells are bombarded with excessive carbohydrates and fructose things get really messy. Protein is ok and so it's fat intake but carbs are the issue. it is hard to explain how the cell works but in a nutshell, cells under the stress of too much glucose instead of making more ATP, it circumvents this process by shuting down insulin receptors and by passing nutrients directly to fats. Fructose, adds fuel to the fire because it doesnt need insulin to be processed! It goes to the liver to be broken down. Too much fructose then the liver dumps the glucose in the blood and stores it around itself(fatty liver). Also, fructose can pass through the cell and if not used for ATP production and it goes straight to fat storage (adipose fat). Once a person is in this state, cells are more concerned avoiding cellular damage rather than normal nutrient partitioning.
    Overall, humans are not meant to eat all these carbohydrates, period.
    I have been eating clean since my early 20s and stopped drinking any alcohol for good. I did eat more carbs and fruits, but the carbs were always complex, never simple. I had cut all processed foods out as well. Prior to my 20s, I ate crap. It wasn't until early last year that I went VLC paleo and then later, keto, and then after learning that fructose (even naturally-occurring in fruit) can contribute to fatty liver, cut down on fruits to the point I now only eat a handful of berries every so often and only after a meal.
    What I cannot understand is how I could have developed fatty liver and IR from eating clean carbs and whole fruits (not fruit juices). That doesn't happen in a healthy person. Research shows a direct link to hypothyroidism and IR as a possible cause.

    Another recent finding: Most people are way too high in n-6 FAs. I am too high in n-3 FAs from supplementation. Since you've researched inflammation, I'm assuming it is just as bad to have too much n-3s as n-6s and alone may contribute to inflammation.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    Another recent finding: Most people are way too high in n-6 FAs. I am too high in n-3 FAs from supplemetation.
    How many mgs of EPA/DHA did you supplement daily?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    How many mgs of EPA/DHA did you supplement daily?
    It varied. As much as 4g daily - and then went to maintenance between 2g and still was elevated. Everyone who supplements should take this test because you will never know otherwise. You may be getting way more than you need which may be causing other problems.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    It varied. As much as 4g daily - and then went to maintenance between 2g and still was elevated. Everyone who supplements should take this test because you will never know otherwise. You may be getting way more than you need which may be causing other problems.
    Amen been saying this for several years people.are over doing on fish oils which is.making people.have insulin issues. People and.drs have very.little.under standing of.how.nutrition impact cell.function..why i.never follow current trends and go against the grain.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Amen been saying this for several years people.are over doing on fish oils which is.making people.have insulin issues. People and.drs have very.little.under standing of.how.nutrition impact cell.function..why i.never follow current trends and go against the grain.
    COPY & PASTE THESE LINKS SINCE I'M UNABLE TO POST LINKS STILL:
    suppversity.blogspot.com/2011/05/too-much-of-good-thing-when-fish-oil.html
    suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/02/tta-fish-oil-fat-burning-superfats-or.html
    chriskresser.com/when-it-comes-to-fish-oil-more-is-not-better
    collectivewizdom.com/IsTooMuchFishOilDangerousforYo urHealth.html

  24. Quote Originally Posted by mcs5309 View Post
    COPY & PASTE THESE LINKS SINCE I'M UNABLE TO POST LINKS STILL:
    suppversity.blogspot.com/2011/05/too-much-of-good-thing-when-fish-oil.html
    suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/02/tta-fish-oil-fat-burning-superfats-or.html
    chriskresser.com/when-it-comes-to-fish-oil-more-is-not-better
    collectivewizdom.com/IsTooMuchFishOilDangerousforYo urHealth.html
    Long Readbut Will Make You Think Twice About Fish Oils !!

    Then you have polquiin pushing 40 grams of fish oils a day !! WTF ....
    Many people ha e very little clue about how.efa metabolism works. Too much fish oil or.metabolic factors from pathogens or.toxicity can.impact a protocol. I have experienced this first hand as I was a patients of Dr Kane her self. I knew the physiology before going into.her. I.just needed the am.results which where what already predicted. Just use this same principle.on a case where an MD contributed.me.to possible saving a life of her patient.which was enigma to every medical Dr. The.information.the fatty acid profile shows has been. game.changer.in my.life as.well as the doctor's patients I have the.opportunity to work along with.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Finally we are geting to the bottom of this.
    I started to suspect insulin resistance after the t3 chronicle, and after you posted the food break down it confirmed it.
    That is correct what you said about being insulin sensitive working in your favor.
    I've done extensive research into inflamation and insulin resistance so much so, that I ended up taking a hard look into biochemistry to understand how and why part. WHat happens is that there are some pathways all cels in our body follows under different circumstances. What ppl do is upseting that balance through our diets favoring excessive food intake...especially carbs.
    When cells are bombarded with excessive carbohydrates and fructose things get really messy. Protein is ok and so it's fat intake but carbs are the issue. it is hard to explain how the cell works but in a nutshell, cells under the stress of too much glucose instead of making more ATP, it circumvents this process by shuting down insulin receptors and by passing nutrients directly to fats. Fructose, adds fuel to the fire because it doesnt need insulin to be processed! It goes to the liver to be broken down. Too much fructose then the liver dumps the glucose in the blood and stores it around itself(fatty liver). Also, fructose can pass through the cell and if not used for ATP production and it goes straight to fat storage (adipose fat). Once a person is in this state, cells are more concerned avoiding cellular damage rather than normal nutrient partitioning.
    Overall, humans are not meant to eat all these carbohydrates, period.
    Just one testosterone injection can mess up your cholesterol level:
    (cut & paste link)
    ergo-log.com/justonetestosteroneinjection.h tml

    Thoughts?
  •   

      
     

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