Normal T, low Free T, High SHBG - TRT or not?
- 02-09-2013, 02:05 AM
test prop; 1cc im/per 7 days for 4wks then 1cc per 5 days for 3wks then 1cc per 3 days for 3wks then back to 1cc per 5 days for 3 weeks and then back to 1cc per 7 days...still there. The pyramid avoids the need for estrogen blockers.
I hear what you're saying with some compounds, however, if I had to pick the lesser of two evils, I still think it would be peptides. Why? Because synthetic 22kDa GH has excessive duration and thus is vastly less healthy and safe than GHRH/GHRP. Again, the main pro argument on peptides is that they seem to enhance the body's own natural production of GH vs taking exogenous GH. It pulses as your body does naturally, so your body isn't doing anything unnatural. The con is that many report peptides being nowhere near as effective in recomping when compared to rHGH. Peptides themselves are not GH, and have a different side effect profile from actual GH itself in a bleed pattern. However it stands that those sides (cortisol, prolactin, hunger, gastric motility in some cases) are negligible in most people unlike synthetic GH sides. Peptides like Mod Grf (1-29)/GHRP allow for our bodies to release GH in the natural ordered pulsatile manner; rHGH, especially in high amounts, can keep systemic levels of GH elevated for prolonged periods of time. It is in this scenario that one could begin to experience unwanted signs and symptoms (CTS, antibodies to GH, water retention, elevated glucose, etc.). Also, with GH ,you are not getting the complete gh hormone, only part of it. Dat's forum is probably the most extensive for peptide research.
Also - don't you mean IGF1LR3? Never heard of IGF1LR2.
Then there are SARMs as a better alternative to T (no androgenic sides). Any thoughts on this as well?
At the end of the day, this is all a science done through experimentation - and each of us has to commit to being the lab rat or not. Sounds like I will have to go through a long process to find out what works best for me, hopefully not at the expense of my health, as that would be defeating the very purpose of what I'm trying to do here.
- 02-09-2013, 10:15 AM
yes igflr3 and the more potent one igf-des. Got the number wrong.I think they do have an LR2 but that's not what I meant regardless.
THat cycle is very inneficient. I can understand the approach about the no need of an AI but the ups and downs would be irritating to say the least.
About GH, synthetic gh is fine if used correctly. I really didnt see any sides or damage from its use. Benefits have been awesome. It is also noted that injecting GH sub-q or IM does affect absorbtion rates and it is very easy to mimic the normal pulsing effect the body.
As far as sarms, they work ok to rise test levels a little but from a bodybuilding perspective not strong enough. They also have their sides. Im not a fan of them but occasionally are a good bridge.
I think, like you said you need to weigh the pros and cons of every approach and decide if the bodybuilding approach or HRT is a better fit for you. In the end, both have their challanges, and it's up to you how you want to mitigate the risks and rewards part of the equation.
Regardless of the approach, if you look at the body as a full circle, at some point either approach will tap into that balance somewhere. With that said, my approach has been to tap at the tail end of this balance much like the finished product such as testosterone,GH, IGF. You want to tap into the signaling between hypothalmus and pituitary or somewhere around that area. To be honest the jury is still out on that, as far as the dosage and how safe that would be. Im not sure how easy would be to burn receptors on the pituitary or hypothalumus with peptides. For this reasons I dont touch stuff I dont know the full effect and the mechanism by which it works.
02-09-2013, 03:59 PM
Can you post some links about the rHGH absorption rates and that it can mimic the natural pulsatile rhythms? The problem is the long bleed of GH:
"SubQ injects (as the doctor would tell you to take your GH) creates a prolonged release pattern that can lead the user towards type II diabetes, due to chronic elevations in blood glucose. GH should be pulsed every 4-5 hours, using IM injections, whith at least one day off, every other day. The side effects of GH use can be ameliorated by utilizing the correct dosing protocol."
This is a major contraindication against rhGH and is again the basis for why I was sold on peptides as a replacement, as a good GHRP/GHRH combo does not create this problem. Secretagogue peptides pose no long-term risk to pituitary gland function, nor is there any risk of overdose.
02-09-2013, 07:44 PM
02-10-2013, 09:41 AM
One way is to take a lower amount over extended periods of time (6-whatever months), the other is to take a greater amount over a shorter period (4-6 weeks).
Im injections I find to be the best regardless, by trial and error and monitorting blood glucose one can see how the GH relesease.
Problem is this, GH works well to preserve mass under low food intake. What ppl do is take GH and eat up a storm which brings the blood glucose into the equation as possible side effect. In that case, insulin can be used to deal with that issue but that's a more complicated matter all together.
I think that some ppl dont understand the ramifications of these compounds in how it affects the body. When designing a cycle all these factors need to be considered. THat's why I think there is a lot of confusion about of what protocol works best.
I dont save stuff I read about, it's from trial and error that I make my decissions on how I design cycles, and feedback from some ppl I know.
02-10-2013, 09:47 AM
Typical cycle 4-5 weeks and that's on top of taking HG along side. There is no PCT. It works better taking in conjunction with HGH, that's basically the PCT.
02-10-2013, 01:20 PM
Also - when on T and/or GH, I need to watch the following:
- both exogenous T and GH can depress hormone and adrenal function
- definitely the glycemic response to exogenous GH
02-10-2013, 03:54 PM
With the right combination of anabolics, exercises and a diet that matches your needs a lot of progress can be made and in time the bloat will go away as body fat decreases.
What cycle are you thinking of doing?
02-10-2013, 06:46 PM
Basically, paleo/keto. I do a 18hr IF & train fasted. I agree diet is 90%. Despite all this, I'm still SOFT. You would think with that low carb & keto, I'd be ripped. Neither I nor any of my friends can understand. I don't think age is as much a factor since I've been like this since my 30s. Could never get dry and hard no matter what I eat. The only thing I can think of that I haven't done is count calories so as to be certain I am at a deficit. Other than that, I have no idea what could be allowing me to store so much bodyfat other than consistently having a lack of free T for all this time. For some reason my metabolism must still not be partitioning macros efficiently otherwise I wouldn't be holding onto fat, let alone creating bodyfat with this type of diet. My gut feeling is that even if I consumed no more than 1000 calories a day - which is not sustainable as an ongoing diet - I still would not get my bf to even 15%. This tells me it's other factors. My first thought was that it was from having a sluggish thyroid. So even when I got my TSH down to the lowest it's ever been and my rT3 cleared using T3, the fat would quickly drop off. It didn't. Very frustrating. What's next? Sometimes I think I'm just screwed genetically.
I would start test cyp possibly with a small dose of deca ( my doc actually prescribes this combo). Still not sure I'd do rhGH until giving the peptides a shot first. I heard the deca will help with tissue injury (shoulder bursitis) as well as T and GH, of course.
02-10-2013, 10:13 PM
I understand your frustration. Sometimes it's like a puzzle trying to figure this whole thing out.
Bloat will go away with fat loss it's not a big deal however uncomfortable it may seem now.
I believe that you are insulin resistant and have been for sometime now. At the same time, as the fat deposits grew larger it also impeded your body's ability to produce and use the right amount of hormones.
From that food breakdown you dont eat a lot. This tells me that cells inside your body are shut down to normal nutrient partitioning as you mentioned, and that is a big problem. Normally, t3 does have an effect on geting them moving but perhaps is just an worse case of cellular damage than other cases.
02-11-2013, 12:22 AM
Insulin resistance and behind it, leptin resistance, many of us have it. What exactly led you to think IR is a problem for me?
This is another reason why I'm on VLC paleo/keto, the best diet for IR/LR. I read up a lot from Jack Kruse, the expert on this. And yes, increased adipocytes = increased inflammation = hormone imbalance (i.e. estrogen dominance, etc.). But if my a1c and FBG are good as you have seen, my post-prandial BG never goes higher than 130 (unless I eat >50g carbs in one meal), both my fasting insulin and leptin are very low -then why would this still be a problem? BTW, if rHGH increases insulin resistance, that's a problem. I need to increase insulin sensitivity.
Becoming keto-adapted means that I've successfully replaced carbs with fat as my main source of fuel, and fat does not illicit an insulin response which is the key to remaining in ketosis. Perhaps eating too much protein? That will drive up insulin levels via gluconeogenesis.
The diet I previously outlined is about 1350-1400 cals. My RMR is about 1500 give or take. My TDEE is about 2200 according to a calorimetry test I recently had done. That test also said my metabolism is...FAST. Go figure. On some days, my calorie intake will go up to 1800, mostly from fat. That still should be at a deficit. Somewhere along the line, my numbers are OFF and I must be still eating at a SURPLUS.
When you're talking "cellular shutdown" or damage what exactly does that mean? Dysregulated nutrient partitioning? If we look at my not firing on all 8 cylinders, then we're talking about hypometabolism. Throw in chronic inflammation - which slows metabolism - and then that's a problem. My elevated CRP reflects some kind of chronic unknown inflammation we cannot identify, so this has also been an issue. Just read that the overall level of inflammation in the body is determined by the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fats in cell membranes. Due to regular fish oil supplementation, I have a surplus of n-3 EFAs (EPA./DHA) over n-6.
But talking strictly about my RMR and macronutrient synthesis, you'd think T3 would come to the rescue, but it didn't do much by way of lipolysis. And when I upped the dose, I got some short and long-term sides, the worst being two blood clots in both legs within the last year which I attribute to too much T3 (and studies will back me up on this since I have zero genetic tendencies for this). IF should definitely help with nutrient partitioning. I think it all comes down to IR and tendency toward metabolic syndrome.
Now, here's something else I should mention. And whether this factors into the equation even though my hormone levels fall within normal ranges is unknown. I was dx'd with ESS when I had an MRI of my brain done a few years back: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001389/ (add the www since I am unable to post links still).
All the docs I've talked to says it's not an issue unless the pituitary doesn't function. Mine functions fine, otherwise, I'd be hypogonadal, etc., but who knows.
On a side note, my diet when I was at my leanest in my med-20s was very similar in terms of types of foods, but consisted of a lot more carbs and calories than my current diet + I ate 3 meals then instead of 2 meals I'm doing now. Looks like I partitioned a lot better then than now.
As you can see, I'm doing everything possible to be in a lipolytic state as opposed to a lipogenic state.
Again, the only thing I have not done is consistently make sure my calories are under my RMR nor have I started a cycle of anything to this day. I lied. I tried Genotropin rhGH 10 years ago, but the dose was subpar (0.2mg) and all I recall it doing was cause localized lipolysis at the injection site. That's not even a cycle.
I think the key is this: The more insulin "sensitive" you are, the better nutrients are partitioned in your favor.
And you are right - this has been around a long time as evidenced by the dx of fatty liver (NAFLD) 3 years ago. It's going to take some time to reverse the damage. It is taking a lot longer than I though to purge all those FFAs from the liver than I thought. I'm hoping the T and GH will help escalate things in the right direction, however the insulin issue with GH is of concern.
My body looks as if I ate crap, lots of carbs, and hardly worked out - certainly not the case which is highly discouraging. Again, this wan't the case in my 20s in which my hard work showed.
02-11-2013, 08:31 AM
Why i suggested 23andme test. There is an app.which was designed for looking at the 23andme test designed by a doctor and his wife who have an autistic son. I am actually working on their sons case probono. there are excepted to be 1-2 million people.getting the app at 12 bucks a pop. Do the.math..not asking for one.red cent..Once I balance their son which should not be difficult..word spreads quickly. I am.already doing genetic research which will potential save thousands of.life by getting the information out there. This will.make.hrt which is a great advancement.in.medicine look like minuscule. By doing 23andme you will see why you have NASH then corrected at source. By looking at the genetic snps you will also be finding out which supplements will compatible to your body and one causing potential harm. I have done a few hundred of these reports it will not be hard to isolate where the imbalances. You are probably asking who is this smuck? LOL. I have been asked to speak at upcoming conference with the best in the field of methylation in the United States.
I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
02-11-2013, 11:35 AM
I started to suspect insulin resistance after the t3 chronicle, and after you posted the food break down it confirmed it.
That is correct what you said about being insulin sensitive working in your favor.
I've done extensive research into inflamation and insulin resistance so much so, that I ended up taking a hard look into biochemistry to understand how and why part. WHat happens is that there are some pathways all cels in our body follows under different circumstances. What ppl do is upseting that balance through our diets favoring excessive food intake...especially carbs.
When cells are bombarded with excessive carbohydrates and fructose things get really messy. Protein is ok and so it's fat intake but carbs are the issue. it is hard to explain how the cell works but in a nutshell, cells under the stress of too much glucose instead of making more ATP, it circumvents this process by shuting down insulin receptors and by passing nutrients directly to fats. Fructose, adds fuel to the fire because it doesnt need insulin to be processed! It goes to the liver to be broken down. Too much fructose then the liver dumps the glucose in the blood and stores it around itself(fatty liver). Also, fructose can pass through the cell and if not used for ATP production and it goes straight to fat storage (adipose fat). Once a person is in this state, cells are more concerned avoiding cellular damage rather than normal nutrient partitioning.
Overall, humans are not meant to eat all these carbohydrates, period.
02-11-2013, 01:22 PM
What I cannot understand is how I could have developed fatty liver and IR from eating clean carbs and whole fruits (not fruit juices). That doesn't happen in a healthy person. Research shows a direct link to hypothyroidism and IR as a possible cause.
Another recent finding: Most people are way too high in n-6 FAs. I am too high in n-3 FAs from supplementation. Since you've researched inflammation, I'm assuming it is just as bad to have too much n-3s as n-6s and alone may contribute to inflammation.
02-11-2013, 01:56 PM
02-11-2013, 01:59 PM
02-11-2013, 02:54 PM
I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
02-11-2013, 04:03 PM
02-11-2013, 05:20 PM
Long Readbut Will Make You Think Twice About Fish Oils !!
Then you have polquiin pushing 40 grams of fish oils a day !! WTF ....
Many people ha e very little clue about how.efa metabolism works. Too much fish oil or.metabolic factors from pathogens or.toxicity can.impact a protocol. I have experienced this first hand as I was a patients of Dr Kane her self. I knew the physiology before going into.her. I.just needed the am.results which where what already predicted. Just use this same principle.on a case where an MD contributed.me.to possible saving a life of her patient.which was enigma to every medical Dr. The.information.the fatty acid profile shows has been. game.changer.in my.life as.well as the doctor's patients I have the.opportunity to work along with.
02-12-2013, 03:14 PM
02-12-2013, 05:01 PM
02-14-2013, 01:42 AM
Question: This is good as Yasko's?
Gene & Variation
rsID Alleles Result COMT V158M rs4680 GG -/- COMT H62H rs4633 CC -/- COMT P199P rs769224 GG -/- VDR Bsm rs1544410 CT +/- VDR Taq rs731236 AG +/- VDR Fok-I not found n/a n/a MAO A R297R rs6323 T + ACAT1-02 rs3741049 GG -/- MTHFR C677T rs1801133 AA +/+ MTHFR 03 P39P rs2066470 GG -/- MTHFR A1298C rs1801131 TT -/- MTR A2756G rs1805087 AG +/- MTRR A66G rs1801394 AA -/- MTRR H595Y rs10380 CC -/- MTRR K350A rs162036 AA -/- MTRR R415T rs2287780 CC -/- MTRR S257T not found n/a n/a MTRR A664A rs1802059 AA +/+ BHMT-01 not found n/a n/a BHMT-02 rs567754 CT +/- BHMT-04 rs617219 AC +/- BHMT-08 rs651852 CT +/- AHCY-01 rs819147 TT -/- AHCY-02 rs819134 AA -/- AHCY-19 rs819171 TT -/- CBS C699T rs234706 AG +/- CBS A360A rs1801181 GG -/- CBS N212N rs2298758 GG -/- SUOX S370S not found n/a n/a NOS3 D298E not found n/a n/a SHMT1 C1420T rs1979277 GG -/-
Gene & Variation
rsID Alleles Result
CYP1A1*2C A4889G rs1048943 TT -/- CYP1A1 m3 T3205C rs4986883 TT -/- CYP1A1 C2453A rs1799814 GG -/- CYP1A2 164A>C rs762551 AA -/- CYP1B1 L432V rs1056836 CG +/- CYP1B1 N453S rs1800440 TT -/- CYP1B1 R48G rs10012 GG -/- CYP2A6*2 1799T>A rs1801272 AA -/- CYP2A6*20 rs28399444 II -/- CYP2C9*2 C430T rs1799853 CC -/- CYP2C9*3 A1075C rs1057910 AC +/- CYP2C19*17 rs12248560 CT +/- CYP2D6 S486T rs1135840 CG +/- CYP2D6 100C>T rs1065852 GG -/- CYP2D6 2850C>T rs16947 AG +/- CYP2E1*1B 9896C>G rs2070676 CC -/- CYP2E1*1B 10023G>A rs55897648 GG -/- CYP2E1*4 4768G>A rs6413419 GG -/- CYP3A4*1B rs2740574 TT -/- CYP3A4*2 S222P rs55785340 AA -/- CYP3A4*3 M445T rs4986910 AA -/- CYP3A4*16 T185S rs12721627 GG -/- GSTP1 I105V rs1695 AG +/- GSTP1 A114V rs1138272 CC -/- SOD2 A16V rs4880 AG +/- NAT1 R187Q rs4986782 GG -/- NAT1 R64W rs1805158 CC -/- NAT2 I114T rs1801280 CT +/- NAT2 R197Q rs1799930 GG -/- NAT2 G286E rs1799931 GG -/- NAT2 R64Q rs1801279 GG -/- NAT2 K268R rs1208 AG +/-
02-14-2013, 08:02 AM
I intepret 23andme for.Md.and.psychiatrists. Nutragenomics has been a huge part of my practice. An App coming out will do over 250.genetic snps and will be offered through 23andme. A lot.of.my.research is.incorporated.into.that app along with a few.other.people. I am.actually training doctors.on how.to use these results.in their practice which is having a profound effect on how they are treating their patient to.get a better therapeutic out come. I have conference coming up in.New Orleans and in talks. of.going.to Australia for 3 -4 course to teach medical professionals. It has helped a lot of.younger guys to be able to.come.off trt more.successful. I am currently working with Dr Mullan on some cases which is Amy yasko colleague you is Co writing her book. Amy has done a wonderful job in getting genetic on the forefront. Her test was the first of its kind. Now 23andme has over 900,000 SNPS vs 30- 40 on yasko panel. Each week I am pulling up new information to add to the growing data base of genetic research. When it comes to genetic I am very well respected in the field..
02-15-2013, 12:16 AM
Clean carbs =glucose
THe difference is release rates! THat's it. End result is the same.
I can tell you that I only eat on an high carb day 75g on a low carb day less than 50g.
THat's all I need.
So clean carbs vs dirty carbs is useless in this equation, quantity matters more than anything else.
It will take a while to fix some of the cellular damage but unfortunately you need to avoid complex and simple carbs for a while anyway. Stick with meat, fat and vegetables possible slightly less than maintenance. Anabolics I found to do nothing against this issue of insulin resistance.
Rule of thumb about suplementation is that once in a while is good to stop taking everything for a month or so for issues like this of over supplementation.
Problem I see with the liver is that many times the liver dumps fats into the blood stream for one reason or another,then if the body doesnt use it goes back into the liver again. But at the same time there is more fat to be dumped so at this point it is possible the liver gets overwhelmed and just starts to store it in an attempt to solve this problem.
Also, when the cells have problem using fat to make atp, it is sometimes related to thyroid function or just too much fat in the blood and enough reason to make ATP.
02-15-2013, 02:06 AM
Also, VLC/paleo is known to purge the liver of FFAs, thus the transient increase in LDL. My LDL numbers have actually improved since June of last year after being on VLC/paleo almost a year now.
As far as being at a deficit from maintenance, that is the very one thing I have not been able to determine: just what is "maintenance", as most of the online RMR calculators say I'm at about 1500. That means in order to lose weight AND bf, I have to be at a deficit of that by what, 200-300 cals? Or do I take my deficit from a different number like TDEE which is about 2500.
Or should I just pick a number, eat that much, and measure actual results at the end of a 3 week period? If I lost 3 pounds, then I am eating at a 500 calorie deficit. If I lost 1.5 pounds, I am at a 250 cal deficit, and so on. Despite all my blaming my hypothyroidism for storing bf, it still all comes down to the olde argument of cals in/cal out.
The only caveat: less food intake = body thinks it's in starvation mode = rT3 spikes = slower metabolism = less fat burned.
Protein is key to retaining lean body mass while eating at a deficit so I want to make sure to keep it up. But what should be enough to maintain anabolism and not too much to again get into trouble with an excess that will convert to glucose via gluconeogenesis?
Keto means as much as 75% fat, 20% protein, and 5% carbs, but with such little food intake, that's nowhere near enough protein for those of us that train 3-4x's a week. That means that if I want to be under maintenance my macros should look like this:
60% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs
There is no way I can bulk even clean at this point and not add unhealthy amounts of bodyfat. Remember, I'm not a big massive guy at 5-7, 175 - with 22% of that weight being fat! I need to recomp to half that bf which mean I should be no more than about 150-155 max. I must do a cut, but not at the expense of LBM - and that's where a anabolic cycle as you had suggested would I believe help - that and keeping protein intake no less than moderate, deriving my energy from healthy fats. Once I get to 10-11% bf, I can then do a clean bulk of say 8-10 lbs, rinse and repeat.
02-16-2013, 12:45 AM
Yes your reasoning is sound. THe fact is that when doing a low carb diet fat intake can be higher if the calorie expanditure requires it BUT protein at that point needs to be around 75g per day. Could be a little more but what happens on a high fat diet protein seems to do more with less. Too much protein and the body will start glucogenesis. So if you active by all means eat more fat.
You will not lose muscle mass if you dont eat x amount of protein, dont worry. You can also take 25 T3 during this cycle.
To be honest im not too concerned about calories that much. Eat 3 meals a day to start consisting of meat/fat/veggies and see what happens. THe important thing is to eat the same everyday so you can make adjustments to the diet if need it. If it's too much food cut down a bit or add another meal if you active that day.
Dont bulk just lose body fat for now.
Isulin resistance is a pain in the butt to fix, it will take time and perseverance.
02-16-2013, 08:56 AM
Correcting gi tract corrects blood sugar metabolism
02-17-2013, 03:39 AM
70% fat, 25% protein, 5% carbs
Again, the only worry is whether the body thinking it's in starvation mode from less calories from carbs will down-regulate its metabolism and burn less fat. Hopefully, the T3 & the fat will offset that possibility.
02-17-2013, 11:38 AM
THe food breakdown is fine. Once on anabolics the more you workout the hungrier you will get that's why is wise to keep your test levels within range or slightly elevated past 1000 and do not workout with very heavy weights.
For the goal you are chasing to lose weight and body fat, 100mg of test a week is more than enough along with 25 T3.
02-17-2013, 02:45 PM
Why not train heavy?
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