25 Year old UK guy, low testosterone / adrenal dysfunction?
- 11-12-2012, 08:37 AM
- 11-12-2012, 10:35 AM
Your cortisol levels are near their upper limits during the day. This can tax your adenal glands, and deplete your progesterone levels and
DHEA. At night cortisol normally drops to almost nothing anyway, but if you are depleting your prehormones to cortisol, your levels may
be getting really super low. Next, you may be having HISTAMINE problems. During the day your high cortisol is suppressing the symptoms,
but at night, when your cortisol is naturally low, the uncleared histamine causes swelling.
After you test the nighttime OTC antihistame, if it works, 500mg of vitamin C, before bed, may solve your problem.
I use liposomal vitamin C for this same problem. HISTAME also helps.
11-20-2012, 08:26 AM
Qwerty, can I ask how you performed the blood tests with Geneva. Like how u drew blood and sent the samples. Also how did u get around it asking for practitioner id, could u pm me this if possible, I'm just thinking ahead to the future
11-20-2012, 10:41 AM
If its for the NutrEval you will need to go and have it drawn in Harley St so it can be centrifuged etc.
I personally have a close friend who is consultant and he simply registered with Genova for me and also drew the blood which I then posted. (Genova send you the vacutainer / needle etc)
I'd either ask your GP to register or you can order quite a few of the Genova tests through Smart Nutrition (google it I can't post links)
11-20-2012, 10:48 AM
To update my own situation:
I've had my 23andme genetic results gone over and its clear I've got a few problems with methylation.
Major ones being being an MTHFR mutation a CBS mutation and COMT mutation. I'm now on a low sulfur diet (cut out onions, garlic, cruciferous veg, dairy) and been on a new supplement package for the last 5 days. No changes as of yet but its early days.
I'll be having my Testosterone levels checked next Monday, at which point I'll have been on Test Cyp x 2 per week for just over 3 1/2 weeks.
Still no libido to report or any improvement in symptoms. Have got to imagine its going to come back high and confirm low T is not the real cause of my symptoms.
11-21-2012, 09:06 AM
If you're interested in a brief presentation in how blockages in methylation can contribute towards lower T levels, depression, anxiety, CFS etc then have a look at this:
11-21-2012, 01:22 PM
11-21-2012, 04:11 PM
Hey subbin in here for some good info. 2 quick questions, and excuse my ignorance if they were discussed in the last 13 pages. Why were you avoiding caffeine along with gluten and alcohol? I have done the same but am a caffeine junkie. And have you researched methyl folic acid?
11-21-2012, 05:36 PM
Yeah - the presentation there talks about 5MTHF methylfolate (note- note methyl folic acid, no such thing). That is one supplement which I have started.
Avoided caffeine as I was getting crashes after drinking it. Ostensibly I did it as its not supposed to be great for adrenals. I'd imagine if / when I get things sorted I will have black coffee in moderate quantities again as I enjoy it.
Alcohol for similar reasons and because its obviously another toxin for your body to process. When your body is struggling to methylate it is also not detoxify properly as I understand it. I'd also found that, and having never had problems with it in the past, since I've been ill the morning after drinking alcohol I would have pronounced anxiety / agitation. Strangely though I would have a hint of libido, which would otherwise never be present. I believe this is to do with problems with dopamine - possibly not breaking it down quickly enough once made, but conversely not making enough day to day to have normal mood / libido.
Again I'm hoping that once methylation is working properly I can go back to enjoying some drinks.
Gluten - I cut it out on Matrix's suggestion. I've since had two tests show no real problem with gluten sensitivity but have decided to keep it out as since I cut out bread / cereal/ pasta I've noticed I never crave foods and I don't think its an essential food to keep in when I eat plenty of veg/ fruit / meat /seafood.
I don't subscribe to the view that its the devil - I'm sure many people can get away with it fine, but I'm not sure how great it is for the gut overall. I used to eat a lot of it as carbohydrate around training / matches when I was fit but if / when I'm better I don't think I'll go back to eating it. Will get my carbs through potatos / s potatos / fruit in the main and save it for the odd treat like pizza or what have you.
11-22-2012, 10:25 AM
Outstanding... 5MTHF has become of serious interest to me. Forgive me for dumbing the name down, you clearly know your stuff. I've been told this supplement can take up to two months to really take effect. And the caffeine issue should have been a no brainer as it aggravates adrenal fatigue. I am going through a lot of similar things right now as well. I definently have a gluten intolerance though, previously drank heavily, and have hyperthyroidism. My endocrine system is so messed up I had a test level of 214 and 3 weeks later 608. Keep us posted on things. Good luck.Originally Posted by qwerty42
Edit: Mucuna Pruriens is a very versatile bean and has personally helped me with mood, libido, anxiety, and sexual stamina. The stuff is cheap and very effective. Don't know how much you already know of it but there is a lot of info here and online. Never seen any side effects at 500 mg to several grams daily.
11-22-2012, 11:04 AM
Quite alright - I am definitely no expert, just learning myself out of necessity!
Yeah I don't think it would be a quick fix with it - if methylation hasn't been working for a while then you may even get worse first as I understand it.
I think it would be important to test first and find out where you are at.
Interesting that you mentioned Muccuna Pruriens - I think it is a precursor to dopamine so would make sense that it helps you. The problem with me is I think my production of dopamine is not working, so whether supplementing precursors would help or not is possibly questionable.
If you're not working with a natural practitioner then I would recommend Matrix. He may have his detractors but I believe he knows his stuff and hes been great with me.Time will tell with my situation I guess.
11-22-2012, 12:34 PM
I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
11-22-2012, 01:35 PM
11-22-2012, 03:04 PM
All in - including the intepretation consultation and posting it back it cost me around $500
If it works then its worth it - the theory seems sound, just hoping to see some changes soon.
11-26-2012, 03:15 PM
Had some new labs back which tend to support problems with my methylation and b-vitamin usage, namely sky high serum B12 and over range Folate (Not entirely sure HOW high folate is as the lab doesn't measure past 20. My iron also seems to be creeping up again after last giving blood to get it down in April. Matrix can correct me if wrong but I believe this is because the body doesn't deal well with build up of iron when methylation isn't working.
Serum B12: 1940 ng/L (211 - 911)
Serum folate: >20 ug/L (4.6 - 18.7)
Ferritin 95 ug/L (30-330)
Serum TIBC 52 umol/L (40-70)
Serum iron level 30 (10-30)
Saturation iron binding capacity 58%
11-26-2012, 05:36 PM
11-26-2012, 10:38 PM
11-27-2012, 12:45 AM
Depends on.whose Interpreting them. majority of.times its black or white. Most of cases are.in the gray ..Originally Posted by kateean2
11-28-2012, 12:28 PM
Getting my T level results at the end of the week. I'll have been injected 50mg x 2 per week sub q and so far not feeling any different.
Had quite an interesting chat with a really helpful guy at the clinic doing the bloods - it was a steroid harm reduction clinic that do free bloods, so he tests upwards of 50 guys a week.
He said that hes got a couple of natty high level bodybuilders who come to get levels done out interest and they test around 12nmol (350 US) and they don't report any symptoms of low T, libido is fine etc and they carry a fair amount of mass.
He also said that on average he doesn't see that many people above 20 - 21.
Admittedly the majority of people attending have at some point used AAS so may not be a good reflection but he doesn't use and said hes tested himself multiple times when hes had odd symptoms, such as reduced libido and his T has always been a consistent 14-15 (406 - 450) and he feels fine the majority of the time.
Just thought it was quite good food for thought - chasing the golden 700 - 800 may well not be the magic bullet for a lot of guys.
11-28-2012, 02:08 PM
Qwerty is this the manchester exchange . Did you have the right post code. Can you pm me your experience of using the clinic and how you got an appointment, if it cost, weekday only. This may be a usefull resource if I trial Clomid next year, just to like yous see if higher test levels are the magic bullet to feeling good or not
11-28-2012, 02:20 PM
11-28-2012, 02:21 PM
12-03-2012, 07:19 AM
No real positive changes to report as of yet. Still feeling awful.
I'm wondering if a main problem for me really is low noepinepherine. Two of the markers for its urinary metabolites 3methyl-4-OHphenylglycol and vanillyl mandelic acid are both low on my nutreval and only just in range in comparison to the serotonin and dopamine ones which seem at good levels.
Low mood, no libido, low energy, difficulty concentrating, low body temperature in the prescence of goodl thyroid / adrenals, temperature that drops following exercise, mild hypotension on rising from a chair quickly, and sinus congestion could quite neatly fit under low NE symptoms could they not?
And just further to that I'm additionally thinking low NE over low dopamine due to the fact my prolactin is always in range and low - middle.
12-03-2012, 07:23 AM
12-04-2012, 06:42 AM
Got my T level results back over the phone from the clinic. Pretty confusing. Testosterone is only at 16 (464) after 3.5 weeks at injecting 50mg x 2 per week. Estrogen has risen but still in range 94 (28 - 156)
My LH and FSH have dropped but are still detectable and my nuts have shrunk further so I think it is genuine T.
Obviously I don't feel any different so I'm wondering whats happening.
a) underdosed? should I increase to 75mg x 2
b) body chewing through Testosterone and using it up quickly?
The other part of me is thinking that I should just get off it and run a PCT as we think its unlikely T is the cause of my problems with a baseline of 417.
12-04-2012, 07:51 AM
12-04-2012, 08:39 AM
12-05-2012, 11:18 AM
Testosterone bumped to 62.5mg x 2 per week for a few weeks.
If no change in how I'm feeling then going to look to transition off as its pretty clear low T is not the primary cause of my symptoms.
Have HCG, Clomid, Torem and DAA if / when it comes to that.
Am also mindful that last month prior to starting TRT my Estrogen was 20pmol/l (28 - 156) and 4 weeks into TRT it is 94pmol/l so have added 0.5mg Arimidex x 2 per week while I am still using the Test.
01-03-2013, 05:49 AM
Ok so as an update.
Felt no benefits from the Testosterone and had my levels re-checked, they were at 23.5 or 680. Libido was unchanged. (See the bottom of the post for a little study I performed)
Transitioned off it onto HCG 1500iu EOD + 1mg Arimidex for the last couple of weeks along with TOCO 8 (Vit E supp) & Dopa Mucuna (15% L-Dopa)
Finished the HCG and in the first week of DAA and Torem which I'm running at 3g and 120/90/60/30 respectively. Adex dropped to 1/2mg Mon / Thurs.
Testicle size doesn't seem to have grown much - maybe a little. Have felt some hints of libido when on the HCG.
Symptoms remain pretty much unchanged with eyes being the most pressing. Physical energy is not as bad as it was but mental acuity is terrible compared to what it was - memory especially poor and 'brain fog' quite apparent.
Last week I saw an opthamologist regarding my photophobic / dry eyes / floaters and he suggested a diagnosis of blepharitis but couldn't suggesta cause. He has suggested bathing them morning and night which I am trying. Doesn't seem like a particularly accurate diagnosis however..
I have also had the results of two more tests back - urinary heavy metals and leaky gut testing.
My gut is ok and the heavy metal I was suspecting - lead (in a way hoping - by way of an answer) is within the reference range.
The only toxic elements outside the reference range are:
Thallium: 0.468 (<=0.273)
Gadolinium 0.027 (<=0.019)
Cesium 10.89 (<=10.10)
Rubidium 2,674 (<= 2,486)
I'm not sure how pressing they are or if they could even affect my symptoms.
My sulfur levels are now consistently down to around 400 mg/L and I have been following the methylation protocol as laid out. No positive changes to report so far really.
I have continued to try and add 120 - 130 bpm cardio in on a stationary bike, sometimes with a sweatsuit, and don't feel any worse for doing it. In fact quite the opposite, I feel better after doing it and don't seem to encounter any delayed fatigue as a result.
I would also note that over the Xmas period I spent more time with friends and, having not drank for 8 months, allowed myself several drinks on one or two nights. I felt much better during - sharper, more like my old self and didn't suffer any ill effects other than the usual foggy head in the morning - I definitely noticed libido upon waking. The rest of my symptoms were no better or worse for having a few drinks.
I definitely think that a dopamine / noepineiphrine problem has something to do with my symptoms.
Un-related but interesting study:
A few of my close friends who have seen how much I've been struggling and know a lot of the ins and outs of it decided to get their T levels checked with me. It has definitely re-inforced one and for all that people shouldn't wholly chase numbers when it comes to Testosterone.
Its obviously not scientific but we all had blood drawn at roughly the same time in the AM and had all been to bed at a normal time the night before with no alcohol consumed. None of them have used AAS before and none of them have had T levels checked. We are all mid twenties.
Friend 1: Rugby player - heavily muscled, not that lean but very strong , drinks a fair bit. Single but gets through a lot of women - self reported libido is very high. T level - 16 (464)
Friend 2: Non - exerciser and pretty weak in general, average build, verging on overweight, in a long term relationship. Libido is so - so but no problems. Very confident demeanour. T level - 23 (667)
Friend 3: Gym goer - lean and fit with a good amount of muscle. Eats well etc Reported libido very high and have shared a flat with him so can attest to this. T level - 12 (350)
Obviously non of the above is scientific and I am relying on their reported information but I thought it was interesting neverthless.
01-03-2013, 07:51 AM
There may be a way just to.neurotransmitter from.neuroscience done. One of colleagues showed me a may to be able us the system. Sounds to.me kavinace may be the a big help since alcohol boost ups gaba which would.help.to offset the.norephinpherine. Methylation is a huge piece of the puzzle but typically people.need neurotransmiter support to.get the synergistic.effect.
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