25 Year old UK guy, low testosterone / adrenal dysfunction?

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  1. Registered User
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    Posted the above links to help out with testing etc.

    I have had cfs/me now for 11 yrs after 3 infections(cmv/ebv/chickenpox) within probably 6 months and i fit into a subgroup of cfs/me that respond to treating herpes infections.

    My initial couple of years i could exercise quite well with relapse or crashes as i call them and then recover again and this cycle repeated itself a few times until it became more constant.

    I have improved using antivirals meds, immune modulators as well as doing adrenal fatigue treatments.

    It can be hard to treat these conditions as you are finding out.

    I also have chronic sinusitis, my doc says that staph infections are very common causes of chronic sinusitis in cfs/me. I have been unable to cure sinusitis but doxycycline has helped alot. It can be hard sometimes to pick up that its sinusitis doing these things as many think it presents like a cold. For me sinusitis worsens sleep and i wake very early mornings with bad headaches, probably because of poor sinus drainage lying down, also get very dry eyes, and post nasal drip which is really annoying and the fatigue can drop me as bad as my cfs/me symptoms prior to antivirals. Worth looking into for sure or a trial of doxycycline for a few weeks.
    Immunovor which is an immune modulator helps improve immune function and natural killer cells which could also be helpful for sinus infections.

    good luck mate,
    cheers!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    Un-related but interesting study:

    A few of my close friends who have seen how much I've been struggling and know a lot of the ins and outs of it decided to get their T levels checked with me. It has definitely re-inforced one and for all that people shouldn't wholly chase numbers when it comes to Testosterone.

    Its obviously not scientific but we all had blood drawn at roughly the same time in the AM and had all been to bed at a normal time the night before with no alcohol consumed. None of them have used AAS before and none of them have had T levels checked. We are all mid twenties.

    Friend 1: Rugby player - heavily muscled, not that lean but very strong , drinks a fair bit. Single but gets through a lot of women - self reported libido is very high. T level - 16 (464)

    Friend 2: Non - exerciser and pretty weak in general, average build, verging on overweight, in a long term relationship. Libido is so - so but no problems. Very confident demeanour. T level - 23 (667)

    Friend 3: Gym goer - lean and fit with a good amount of muscle. Eats well etc Reported libido very high and have shared a flat with him so can attest to this. T level - 12 (350)

    Obviously non of the above is scientific and I am relying on their reported information but I thought it was interesting neverthless.
    THIS has by far been the most interesting post to me in this thread so far, and like you said (and Matrix alluded to) we really can't be chasing after numbers where Test is concerced. I mean come on! The two most "Testosterone-sounding" guys (friends 1 and 3) having the lowest levels; while the "ordinary" guy (friend 2) has the highest??? What gives??? Just goes to show I guess.....
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    Being a trainer for 20 years, i have seen all.kinds of t.levels in natural.people. One report I.read.most NFL player and other athletes level are 350-500 on average. One natural freak i trained had t of 400 but.optimal gh thyroid adrenal function ..One word Bioindividuality ..People are chasing numbers and looking at T levels which in majority of.younger guys is a symptom of a deeper cause. Why I.stress look.for underlying pathology by first.looking at life styles nutrition sleep patterns and hidden daily hidden stresses before going looking into hormones chasing your tail..Common sense is.usually is where the answer is found, but.highly overlooked in.medicine.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    ..People are chasing numbers and looking at T levels which in majority of.younger guys is a symptom of a deeper cause. .
    Matrix, although I suspect I already know what your answer will be, what might be the "deeper cause" for guys chasing down Test levels and numbers?
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    Toxicity and inflammation which leads to.compromise immune systems resulting in adrenal, thyroid and hormones in the first place. Hidden stressors have to be identified. So the root cause can be addressed. The key is having a detailed history of the person and just using common sense. Not saying trt doesn't have it.place. Saying further evaluations needs to.be conducted.in guys < 30-35 because it.may be masking something more health threatening.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Toxicity and inflammation which leads to.compromise immune systems resulting in adrenal, thyroid and hormones in the first place. Hidden stressors have to be identified. So the root cause can be addressed. The key is having a detailed history of the person and just using common sense. Not saying trt doesn't have it.place. Saying further evaluations needs to.be conducted.in guys < 30-35 because it.may be masking something more health threatening.
    Would "hidden stressors" mainly be the toxicity and inflammation that you refer to, or could there be others? Like? And I"m sure you've probably discussed this elsewhere, but what are good ways to go about assessing whether there are possibly such stressors affecting us? (If there's a forum topic on it -which I suspect there is- feel free to point me to it. Inbox me if you prefer. Thanks!).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blingzip View Post
    Would "hidden stressors" mainly be the toxicity and inflammation that you refer to, or could there be others? Like? And I"m sure you've probably discussed this elsewhere, but what are good ways to go about assessing whether there are possibly such stressors affecting us? (If there's a forum topic on it -which I suspect there is- feel free to point me to it. Inbox me if you prefer. Thanks!).
    I look at these things in this order in relationship to stressors
    1. Lifestyles (sleep hygiene, stress management, ect)
    2. Nutrition
    3. environmental
    4. Genetic
    5. Biological/structural
    6. Neurological

    Proper evaluations depends on the underlying pathology. The proper testing needs to be conducted based upon the budget one is comfortable with. Its the skill of the pracitioner which dictates the testing needed to get the proper information.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Update -

    I'm in week 3 of my SERMs of Toremifine Citrate @ 60mg and Clomid at 25mg BID. Prior to that I did 8 shots of 1500iu of HCG spread over 2 weeks with 1mg Adex on the day of the shots. I've also been taking 3g DAA and a serving of TOCO 8 (Vit E Supplement) each day.

    Just had bloods back drawn 7 days ago:

    FSH 10.6 (2.0 - 14)
    LH 11.4 (2.0 - 14)
    Oestradiol <50 (28 - 156)
    SHBG 28 nmol/l (15-47)
    Testosterone 13.5 nmol/l (392 US units) (Was 14.4 back in Nov prior to trying TRT)
    Prolactin 136 (86 - 324)
    Progesterone 2.6 (0.95 - 3.82)
    Vitamin D 169 nmol/l (>75) (Checking the web optimal is 150 - 180)

    TSH 1.9 (0.2 - 5.0)
    FT4 17.0 (9.0 - 24)
    LDL Cholesterole 1.83 mmol/l (0 - 2.0)
    HDL 1.5 No range mmol/l
    Cholesterol 3.7 mmol/l (0 - 4)
    Chol / HDL ratio 2.47
    Albumin 44 g/l (34 - 48)


    So it looks like I'm recovered back to where I was prior to the trial of Testosterone replacement which is a relief. I'll continue to run it for the remainder of the planned 4 weeks.

    One good piece of news is my Vitamin D, which was 83nmol/l back in Nov 11 then 74 nmol/l when checked is April 2012 is now well into the optimal range. I have been supplementing with 5000iu for around 18 months now so can only conclude that my body is now absorbing it and fats in general more efficiently now. I think my cholesterol numbers would support this as well.

    I have also tapered up to 5000mcg of B12 and 3000mcg of 5-Methlfolate; supplements to support the methylation cycle. Having felt no discernible difference I have dropped back to 1000mcg of each.

    I am still off work. My GP, while supporting, cannot prescribe Wellbutrin in the UK, not even off label, so any hopes of a trial of that are out of the window. I broached the topic of a trial of an SNRI (Effexor of Cymbalta) but while willing to try in the future, he does not thinking I present as particularly depressed.

    I have now got an appointment to see the ENT specialist again regarding my sinuses in February. When I last saw him he suggested I may need Septoplasty, SMD and Outfracture of the turbinates. My GP and I are both keen for me to have this done on the off chance that it improves my eyes and energy levels in general.

    Symptom wise I am pretty much unchanged in terms of tiredness, visual problems, concentration and libido. Psychologically I would say I am better than where I was before Christmas. Getting out with my friends and having a few drinks for the first time in a long time has definitely helped that, but unfortunately it has not changed the rest. Still, important to keep track of the positives.

    I have also been able to do some light exercise. Checking my heart rate the morning after with the orthostatic test, I am recovering fine from it. Definitely not 'overtrained' in the classic sense any more. Have lifted some light weights and also tried hot yoga (not that light!) which I enjoyed and had some interesting benefits as well. I felt immeasurably better when I had finished and for the couple of hours afterwards. On checking my body temperature it was around 98.6 whereas at most other times the highest it gets is 97.7.

    This brings me back to the concept of Wilson's Temperature Syndrome:

    -I've got the thyroid symptoms - dry eyes, dry brittle hair (changed from thick and full), cold extremeties, low normal serum T, no libido, brain fog and low body temp but obviously my FT3, FT4, Rt3 are ok
    -I've got the perfect history - chronic dieting / overtraining with stressful period and noticeable crash
    -I now know one or two professionals personally who have people who have sorted themselves through it, coming from similar backgrounds.
    -I've excluded so much else and WTS is definitely a diagnosis of exclusion.


    I have managed to find a UK GP who treats this now, based on Harley Street, and am hoping to get enough money together to be able to see him. I have enough Cytomel to try it myself but would be unsure and better to defer to a Dr. It would seemingly also be the first time a qualified doctor in the UK has actually had a clue what may be wrong.

    It may be a longshot and I know Matrix disagrees with the use of T3 like this and I respect his opinion wholeheartedly, but I am running out of options really and don't seem to be improving currently.

    If anyone has any experience of people undergoing WTS therapy I would appreciate experiences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    Update -

    I'm in week 3 of my SERMs of Toremifine Citrate @ 60mg and Clomid at 25mg BID. Prior to that I did 8 shots of 1500iu of HCG spread over 2 weeks with 1mg Adex on the day of the shots. I've also been taking 3g DAA and a serving of TOCO 8 (Vit E Supplement) each day.

    Just had bloods back drawn 7 days ago:

    FSH 10.6 (2.0 - 14)
    LH 11.4 (2.0 - 14)
    Oestradiol <50 (28 - 156)
    SHBG 28 nmol/l (15-47)
    Testosterone 13.5 nmol/l (392 US units) (Was 14.4 back in Nov prior to trying TRT)
    Prolactin 136 (86 - 324)
    Progesterone 2.6 (0.95 - 3.82)
    Vitamin D 169 nmol/l (>75) (Checking the web optimal is 150 - 180)

    TSH 1.9 (0.2 - 5.0)
    FT4 17.0 (9.0 - 24)
    LDL Cholesterole 1.83 mmol/l (0 - 2.0)
    HDL 1.5 No range mmol/l
    Cholesterol 3.7 mmol/l (0 - 4)
    Chol / HDL ratio 2.47
    Albumin 44 g/l (34 - 48)


    So it looks like I'm recovered back to where I was prior to the trial of Testosterone replacement which is a relief. I'll continue to run it for the remainder of the planned 4 weeks.

    One good piece of news is my Vitamin D, which was 83nmol/l back in Nov 11 then 74 nmol/l when checked is April 2012 is now well into the optimal range. I have been supplementing with 5000iu for around 18 months now so can only conclude that my body is now absorbing it and fats in general more efficiently now. I think my cholesterol numbers would support this as well.

    I have also tapered up to 5000mcg of B12 and 3000mcg of 5-Methlfolate; supplements to support the methylation cycle. Having felt no discernible difference I have dropped back to 1000mcg of each.

    I am still off work. My GP, while supporting, cannot prescribe Wellbutrin in the UK, not even off label, so any hopes of a trial of that are out of the window. I broached the topic of a trial of an SNRI (Effexor of Cymbalta) but while willing to try in the future, he does not thinking I present as particularly depressed.

    I have now got an appointment to see the ENT specialist again regarding my sinuses in February. When I last saw him he suggested I may need Septoplasty, SMD and Outfracture of the turbinates. My GP and I are both keen for me to have this done on the off chance that it improves my eyes and energy levels in general.

    Symptom wise I am pretty much unchanged in terms of tiredness, visual problems, concentration and libido. Psychologically I would say I am better than where I was before Christmas. Getting out with my friends and having a few drinks for the first time in a long time has definitely helped that, but unfortunately it has not changed the rest. Still, important to keep track of the positives.

    I have also been able to do some light exercise. Checking my heart rate the morning after with the orthostatic test, I am recovering fine from it. Definitely not 'overtrained' in the classic sense any more. Have lifted some light weights and also tried hot yoga (not that light!) which I enjoyed and had some interesting benefits as well. I felt immeasurably better when I had finished and for the couple of hours afterwards. On checking my body temperature it was around 98.6 whereas at most other times the highest it gets is 97.7.

    This brings me back to the concept of Wilson's Temperature Syndrome:

    -I've got the thyroid symptoms - dry eyes, dry brittle hair (changed from thick and full), cold extremeties, low normal serum T, no libido, brain fog and low body temp but obviously my FT3, FT4, Rt3 are ok
    -I've got the perfect history - chronic dieting / overtraining with stressful period and noticeable crash
    -I now know one or two professionals personally who have people who have sorted themselves through it, coming from similar backgrounds.
    -I've excluded so much else and WTS is definitely a diagnosis of exclusion.


    I have managed to find a UK GP who treats this now, based on Harley Street, and am hoping to get enough money together to be able to see him. I have enough Cytomel to try it myself but would be unsure and better to defer to a Dr. It would seemingly also be the first time a qualified doctor in the UK has actually had a clue what may be wrong.

    It may be a longshot and I know Matrix disagrees with the use of T3 like this and I respect his opinion wholeheartedly, but I am running out of options really and don't seem to be improving currently.

    If anyone has any experience of people undergoing WTS therapy I would appreciate experiences.
    Low dosage would not hurt. Its the idiots using >25 mcgs and over which I am referring too. 10-15 mcgs may not be as bad to try. Concern is the impact in adrenal function. I have an endo and Gi Dr in london I am working on with a case right now as trial. We are making good progress. It is crucial to have a team of open minded medical doctors on board with similar cases.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    It would be interesting to see if my response to T3 was better this time, now we have resolved the CBS pathway and been on the methylation supps for a while. Hebsie who I believe you have been speaking to has intimated he has had good fortune with B12 improving his T3 use.

    The Vit D level is surely good news for my VDR taq SNP as well, so hats off for the suggestion to supplement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    It would be interesting to see if my response to T3 was better this time, now we have resolved the CBS pathway and been on the methylation supps for a while. Hebsie who I believe you have been speaking to has intimated he has had good fortune with B12 improving his T3 use.

    The Vit D level is surely good news for my VDR taq SNP as well, so hats off for the suggestion to supplement.
    Yes Hebsie is next. When I get time. I back filled 2 weeks with people plus educating Dr's one on one just not enough time in the day. I comment when I can. My fear with him he's going to get cycle spinning to fast will be another victim of honeymoon effect then crash. Going to refer him to Sterling then have him get back to me..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    If you take an antihistamine at bedtime would you not wake up with this swelling??
    Your cortisol levels are near their upper limits during the day. This can tax your adenal glands, and deplete your progesterone levels and
    DHEA. At night cortisol normally drops to almost nothing anyway, but if you are depleting your prehormones to cortisol, your levels may
    be getting really super low. Next, you may be having HISTAMINE problems. During the day your high cortisol is suppressing the symptoms,
    but at night, when your cortisol is naturally low, the uncleared histamine causes swelling.
    After you test the nighttime OTC antihistame, if it works, 500mg of vitamin C, before bed, may solve your problem.
    I use liposomal vitamin C for this same problem. HISTAME also helps.
    I am sure your thoughts are appreciated, but please allow me to add that it seems one needs enough cortisol to sleep well. Dr. Paul Chek says that a person who sleeps better after exercising in the evening, for example, is a person for whom the cortisol increase aids sleep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogrick2 View Post
    I am sure your thoughts are appreciated, but please allow me to add that it seems one needs enough cortisol to sleep well. Dr. Paul Chek says that a person who sleeps better after exercising in the evening, for example, is a person for whom the cortisol increase aids sleep.
    More.likely the.neurotransmitter effect it may have. I work with people with sleep issues all the time. correct the sleep cortisol and testosteronehad a greater chance to returning to.normal. Numerous young guys on trt probably do not need it if Dr would.address other areas like sleep hygiene and simple lifestyle changes. Amazing what can happen..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Should also add to the above that I've trialled Dopa Mucuna at 1600mg BID for the last 3 weeks but no tangible positive effect on libido.

    I'm now a few days into starting T3 and although my temperature is a little higher it is still around 96.9 orally on waking and 96.7 underarm with the exception of the below..

    However something interesting happeend over the weekend. I woke up on Saturday with the above temperatures but my appetite which has been entirely absent for the best part of a year now, no real hunger cues etc kicked into overdrive. I can only assume it was the T3 as I consumed A LOT, it was a curry night at a friends and including the day time eating I must have easily clocked up 4000 - 5000 calories without feeling full. (I only weigh 150lb and am 5' 7 so thats got to be a fair amount in excess)

    I woke up Sunday morning and my basal temperature was 97.8, extremeties were warm and pink, testicles fuller and hanging lower and I had a sense of libido as well.

    Weighed in this morning and despite the massive amounts of food and carbohydrate consumed I'm down a 1lb from Friday.

    I've read Matt Stones work over at 180 Metabolism and Leigh Peeles Metabolism repair book but wonder if there could be something in it. I'd be loathed to put on fat for the sake of it, but I am now wondering if I can't get my temperature to increase with T3, whether it is worth trying heavily overfeeding on carbohydrate for 4 - 6 weeks to see if symptoms and temperatures improve.
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    As an update. I've tapered up to 50mcg of T3 taken at night and am now 10 days into it. As a caveat, I appreciate this goes against the advice of Matrix.

    My basal underarm temperature is still 97.1 and hasn't really budged despite the T3. Symptom wise I haven't felt any worse or better. Noteably I haven't experienced any classically low cortisol symptoms which is good so far apart from..

    Again though on Saturday, similar to last weekend, I had a large amount of food and this time also had some alcohol as well. Didn't do basal temperature on the Sunday but by the afternoon it had got to 98.6 and by the evening was 99. I didn't feel hyper at all and, despite feeling hungover, felt great. Sharper mind, noticeable libido, eyes not so dry.

    So is it the large calorie surplus or is it the alcohol, or a mixture of both that drives my temperature up?

    Today I had a little N1 experiment.

    Basal temperature - 97.1
    4.20pm temperature - 98.0
    4.30pm 1 25ml measure of Johnny Walker whiskey
    5.00pm temperature 98.5

    Everything I have read in the literature suggests that alcohol depresses body temperature. This would seem to suggest otherwise.
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    Reason for rt3 in.first place is starvation and.preservation. carbs and.hypercalories can lower rt3
    hint during high school we used to sip on JD to stay warm and the bus stop.
    Too many factors over lap.when. it.comes to.symptoms
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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