25 Year old UK guy, low testosterone / adrenal dysfunction?

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  1. Can you just give us a rundown of what supplements are working for you?? It isn't for us to copy your protocol or anything bc everyone is indeed different. But it can help us learn and give us food for thought.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by tenntarheel View Post
    Can you just give us a rundown of what supplements are working for you?? It isn't for us to copy your protocol or anything bc everyone is indeed different. But it can help us learn and give us food for thought.
    I work with people from all over the world as well as many on here and other health forums. Due to forum rules I told them not to tell who they are working with and give only the main parts. This is not to hide anything from any one, but to protect people from killing them selves. Dealing with hormones is nothing compared to correcting neurological and enzymatic pathways. I get 1-2 calls a week where people are suicidal because of just the OTC supplements which were recommended. Simple the wrong combination of a few over the counter supplementation in the wrong environment could be not a good scenario. He has gotten the proper testing which is now opening doors to why TRT is not working as many others are finding out, but just are not saying much. To give you a good analogy. Its like giving a child a match and a stick of TNT. This is nothing to be fooled with unless you know what you are doing. Currently he is not on any supplements at this time, but soon will working to balance out his detoxification system, neurotransmitters, and other genetic road blocks ..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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  3. I understand not wanting people to hurt themselves but I don't see anything wrong with divulging such info. We are all here to learn. It doesn't have to be a mystery.

  4. Proper testing? In addition to this thread?

  5. As an update-

    I've had the Metametrix GI Effects stool test done and no real problems were found there; no chronic infections etc I do have some malabsorption of fats.

    I've had hair tissue mineral analysis and no real levels of toxic metals have been found.

    I've also had Lyme testing done that was negative. Can't really ever remember a rash or tick bite anyway.

    I've had up to date endocrine bloods done and they look OK. Testosterone still on the low side but everything else fine.

    Blood test 11/01/12
    SHBG 23 nmol/l (13 - 71)
    LH 7.60 iu/L
    FSH 7.50 iu/L (No range given)
    Total Testosterone 14.4 nmol/l (8.50 - 29.0)
    FT4 15 pmol/l (8 - 21pmol/l)
    FT3 4.8pmol/l (2.50 - 6.50pmol/l)
    TSH 1.80 mu/L (0.4 - 4.5)
    Oestradiol 20pmol/l (<80 in men)
    AM cortisol 670nmol/l (0-700)

    Reverse T3 0.36 pmol/ mL (0.15 - 0.54 - ideal less than 0.48)

    Sample1: 22.4 nmol/l (12-22) 97.0F 60BPM
    Sample2: 4.6 nmol/l (5-9) 98.2F 74 BPM
    Sample3: 6.9 nmol/l (3-7) 97.9F 68BPM (Had 30 minute nap immediately after this sample)
    Sample4: 2.3 nmol/l (1-3) 98.1F 80 BPM


    DHEA Mean: 0.75 nmol/l (0.40 - 1.47)
    DHEA : Cortisol Ratio: 2.07 (2-6)

    Total daily cortisol 36.2 (21-41 nmol/l)


    Notably my thyroid is fine, the RT3 has come down, which makes me wonder why I'm still experiencing low body temperature in addition to the rest of my symptoms.

    Current symptoms are:

    * Low mood. This is not been a problem for the whole of the 18 months really but now starting to get tearful randomly and think pretty dark thoughts. Wouldn't self harm but also feeling like I wouldn't be too bothered if I didn't wake up.

    * Agonizingly dry & photophobic right eye -specifically the right one, left seems ok.

    * Fatigue throughout the day and brain fog / difficulty concentrating. No exercise capacity.

    * Sinus congestion during the night. Wake up 3-30 -4 AM every night completely congested and incredibly thirsty. Pint of water eases the congestion.

    * Still no libido at all. Not even an inkling. No random erections, sporadic weak morning wood. Flaccid size is markedly reduced to the tune of less than half the usual size. Testicles also half the size they were before symptoms began 18 months ago.


    I've just had my 23andme results back and will be going over them with Matrix. I'm really hoping that they can shed some light on things as I'm not sure there is much else left to test for. With a bit of luck my SNP wills reveal something glaringly obvious that is likely to be wrong with my methylation cycle and can be corrected.

    My complete lack of libido despite a relatively normal testosterone level is making me think it is a neurotransmitter issue, with them possibly not being made properly due to dysfunctional methylation. I appreciate it is not an ideal level of testosterone but people do get by with that level I couldn't have less libido if I tried!

    Symptoms have progressed to the point where I'm now off work, so in a way I'm glad theres not much left to test for.

    Don't really want to approach GP with the low mood as they're likely to try and pin all of the physical symptoms on it- even though I've had the other symptoms for 18 + months and I'm only starting to really struggle psychologically now.

    To discover once and for all whether it is the low normal testosterone causing symptoms (I doubt it now) I started last week on self prescribed Test Cyp 40mg x 2 per week injecting sub-q. So far nothing but I will be getting my Testosterone level checked in a couple of weeks - I honestly imagine it is going to come back fairly high though.

    Its not a matter of secrecy - I just don't understand enough about it to be able to tell you what is what!

    I have come to realize that it is more complicated than just giving B12 and Folate, but this isn't a bad thing to read in terms of understanding the methylation cycle can cause quite a few problems - (Can't post links so search: Dr Sarah Myhill Methylation Cycle)

    I can tell you that one of the 23andme results I do understand is that I have the MTHFR enzyme deficiency and as a result folic acid is pretty bad for me - body struggles to convert. I'm off all supplementation completely as of 10 days ago but had been taking 400mcg in my multi and 400mcg in my B-complex.

    I've been gluten, caffeine and alcohol free for 8 months now and I can tell you that doesn't seemed to have helped. From my reading I don't think gluten is particularly great for anyone though and I don't miss it that much. Diet is just vegetables, fruit, meat and some seafood really. I have organic butter but not milk. I also use coconut oil liberally to cook with.

    Hope this answers some questions. I think an important realization is that my thyroid numbers are fine and my adrenals are OK yet I still have low / fluctuating body temperature. Something is going wrong with energy production at the cellular level I believe and that is where methylation and the Krebs cycle come into play, I believe.

    I've spent the last 18 months learning about hormones and I've always had an interest in diet and nutrition following the likes of Alan Aragon and Lyle Mcdonald, but the epigenetics is a whole new ball game, way over my head and I'm looking forward to having Matrix guide me on it.

    Hope this helps some people.
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  6. I would first try taking a CHOLINE BITARTRATE supplement.
    After 2 days add some MOLYBDENUM.
    Then add B6(5P5), B9(Metafolin), M-B12 (methlycobalamin), and AD-B12(dibencozide).

    See if that helps with the nightly congestion.

    I think you could use 5mg of DHEA, ED.

  7. Thanks for the input - I'm having my consultation tomorrow though so will being going off suggestions thoroughly. Will try and keep this thread more up to date. I would say, from what I now understand, I think I'd have been better off doing some of the testing the other way round. They're expensive tests and in hindsight should have done

    1st. 23andme
    2nd. NutrEval
    3rd. Gi Effects

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    I would first try taking a CHOLINE BITARTRATE supplement.
    After 2 days add some MOLYBDENUM.
    Then add B6(5P5), B9(Metafolin), M-B12 (methlycobalamin), and AD-B12(dibencozide).

    See if that helps with the nightly congestion.

    I think you could use 5mg of DHEA, ED.
    Again in a wrong situation these recommendation can cause major issues. So these recommendations are actually can be counter productive in his case. People have good intentions, but until knowing the what the testing results one find out why certain things have not been working in the past.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by acidvoodoo View Post
    Proper testing? In addition to this thread?
    Yeah man..... it just depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

    This thread has been pretty comprehensive (let's be honest...he's going so far as genetic testing through 23andMe).

    That said, in addition to the above there's still more you can test like food sensitivities, gluten cross reactivity, infectious diseases, autoimmunity,etc.
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca

  10. Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    Thanks for the input - I'm having my consultation tomorrow though so will being going off suggestions thoroughly. Will try and keep this thread more up to date. I would say, from what I now understand, I think I'd have been better off doing some of the testing the other way round. They're expensive tests and in hindsight should have done

    1st. 23andme
    2nd. NutrEval
    3rd. Gi Effects
    I don't know if it's available where you're at, but there might be some other things you can look at.

    A relatively new company has started to do testing for gut permiability, gluten sensitivity (more comprehensive than just Transglutaminase and deamidated gliadin.... they're testing for IgA and IgG responses to other parts of the wheat kernel), gluten cross reactivity, and autoimmune testing related to gluten sensitivity.

    Google: Cyrex Labs
    Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
    -Seneca

  11. Have you been checked for MAIS??

  12. Sinus congestion during the night. Wake up 3-30 -4 AM every night completely congested and incredibly thirsty. Pint of water eases the congestion.
    I'm really stuck on this one. CONGESTION?(mucus) or ANGIOEDEMA(nasal swelling)? Water is a fast cure?
    I have no personal, common, experiences..... how can water cure anything? (I'm thinking out loud here)

    Do you have PROGESTERONE levels? IgE?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by tenntarheel View Post
    Have you been checked for MAIS??
    His issues is outside hormones as many younger guys are. Low testosterone is just an expression alterations in genetic imbalances..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  14. Yeah, but MAIS is definitely a more severe type of hormone imbalance that can cause all types of issues that vary greatly from one person to another. It was just a thought but now that I think of it, I think they typically have HIGH Test and LH, not low test with higher LH. Oh well

  15. are the bulk of your blood tests still through the NHS? do you consult an Endo or a GP? how do you get around them just saying everything is "in range" yet you still feel like crap. i'm the same age as you and my last blooddraw was 11.4nmol, docs of course dont want to help. Tried to start my own thread but it said it needed approval, how many posts do you need to start a thread? anyone know?

  16. Thanks for the suggestion. In terms of gluten sensitivity, I've had two basic tests one from Genova FACT and the Metametrix GI Effects show no real problems with gluten. Having said that I have cut out gluten anyway for the last 8 months, very strictly, but can't really report any improvements.

    I would say, and I don't know whether this is related to a low metabolism or low dopamine instead of food choices, but since I switched to this way of eating strictly with no gluten, I don't crave any foods anymore. I remember back when I used to eat cereals, breads etc I would crave them horrendously. Not particularly relevant but interestingly never the less.

    acidvoodoo - my endocrine bloods have mostly been through the NHS, although each Dr will generally only check hormone levels once every 6 months - hence some are from an endo, some are from my initial GP and I just changed GP to get the latest ones. It is a farce the hoops we have to jump through.

    It might be worthwhile you ringing your Primary Care Trust to find out if there is a needle exchange with steroid clinic in your area. They should check your Testosterone levels for free and Liver function tests and they only take your initials and phone you with the results. Doesn't go on file and your GP doesn't find out. I'm NW based and am going to travel to Manchester to get it done.

    If you've read my thread you'll understand my contempt for the NHS as a whole. If you want to try and get treatment however, then you should print out the UK Guidelines for Management of Androgen Deficiency in Men which state that a Testosterone level between 8-12 nmol/l WITH symptoms of low testosterone can be considered for a 6 month trial of TRT.

    However - at your age I'd do some more reading of the forum and look for reasons you may be low. There are countless and my thread documents a lot of them. TRT at our age is, short of structural endocrine failure, not the best idea IMO.

    As far as I know you should be able to start your own thread - hope this helps.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
    Sinus congestion during the night. Wake up 3-30 -4 AM every night completely congested and incredibly thirsty. Pint of water eases the congestion.
    I'm really stuck on this one. CONGESTION?(mucus) or ANGIOEDEMA(nasal swelling)? Water is a fast cure?
    I have no personal, common, experiences..... how can water cure anything? (I'm thinking out loud here)

    Do you have PROGESTERONE levels? IgE?
    Sorry hadn't seen this Mr TT.

    Its no mucus but swelling instead. With a post nasal drip as well. Water does help it and it actually hasn't been as pronounced the last 3-4 nights.

    (The changes I've made in the last 10 days include dropping all supplementation and starting Test - Cyp )

  18. Yes I deffo do not want trt. Like you I'm trying to get to the root of it. First I'm looking at adrenals and awaiting an ultra sound. Thenn I think ill have to explore thyroid and liver function.

    My current gp was like a temp, and thus why he was willing to give me the extensive tests as it wasn't his practice so he didn't care about the precious budget. So you think its reasonable to request refferal to an endo based on my 11.4 reading. Even if the endo does nothing but allow Mr to track my levels like you have, while working out the root cause.

    Will try and get my own thread up

  19. I'd definitely request an endo consultation. They're not great but they can perform ultrasounds / MRIs to rule out structural problems with your pituitary or testicles.

    If there is damage to either then you may well need TRT, if not however then I'd keep digging.

  20. There is one in my area that at least seems to have some published work on hypogonadism, and looks like he wrote an article saying measures of less then 11 need further investigation. Any idea if the NHS let's you request a specific consultant? Going to see a diabetes endo seems pointless imo

  21. Sounds promising but don't get your hopes up.

    Latest endo I saw was Professor and on the board of Androgen Society in the UK. Thought I was fine with a level of 9.9 ...

    Hope you have better luck!

  22. Quote Originally Posted by qwerty42 View Post
    Sorry hadn't seen this Mr TT.

    Its no mucus but swelling instead. With a post nasal drip as well. Water does help it and it actually hasn't been as pronounced the last 3-4 nights.

    (The changes I've made in the last 10 days include dropping all supplementation and starting Test - Cyp )
    If you take an antihistamine at bedtime would you not wake up with this swelling??
    Your cortisol levels are near their upper limits during the day. This can tax your adenal glands, and deplete your progesterone levels and
    DHEA. At night cortisol normally drops to almost nothing anyway, but if you are depleting your prehormones to cortisol, your levels may
    be getting really super low. Next, you may be having HISTAMINE problems. During the day your high cortisol is suppressing the symptoms,
    but at night, when your cortisol is naturally low, the uncleared histamine causes swelling.
    After you test the nighttime OTC antihistame, if it works, 500mg of vitamin C, before bed, may solve your problem.
    I use liposomal vitamin C for this same problem. HISTAME also helps.

  23. Qwerty, can I ask how you performed the blood tests with Geneva. Like how u drew blood and sent the samples. Also how did u get around it asking for practitioner id, could u pm me this if possible, I'm just thinking ahead to the future

  24. If its for the NutrEval you will need to go and have it drawn in Harley St so it can be centrifuged etc.

    I personally have a close friend who is consultant and he simply registered with Genova for me and also drew the blood which I then posted. (Genova send you the vacutainer / needle etc)

    I'd either ask your GP to register or you can order quite a few of the Genova tests through Smart Nutrition (google it I can't post links)

  25. To update my own situation:

    I've had my 23andme genetic results gone over and its clear I've got a few problems with methylation.

    Major ones being being an MTHFR mutation a CBS mutation and COMT mutation. I'm now on a low sulfur diet (cut out onions, garlic, cruciferous veg, dairy) and been on a new supplement package for the last 5 days. No changes as of yet but its early days.

    I'll be having my Testosterone levels checked next Monday, at which point I'll have been on Test Cyp x 2 per week for just over 3 1/2 weeks.

    Still no libido to report or any improvement in symptoms. Have got to imagine its going to come back high and confirm low T is not the real cause of my symptoms.
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