25 Year old UK guy, low testosterone / adrenal dysfunction?
- 05-03-2012, 03:54 PM
- 05-03-2012, 03:54 PM
- 05-03-2012, 03:54 PM
05-03-2012, 03:54 PM
My NutrEval has just come through! Would really appreciate everyones help with having a look at it, especially yours Matrix.
I haven't uploaded the FACT1 part as I have zero food allergies or even intolerences to report. I'm fine with wheat and dairy which are two things I'd cut out but may not need to have.
The main body of the report though suggests I have a serious Vitamin C deficiency, a-lipoic acid deficiency and Lead only just within the reference range.
I moved into a new flat 01/10/10 and began to get ill 25/12/10. I finally moved out of the new flat 25/02/12 as my job is under the threat due to illness. Blood for the Nutreval was drawn 13/04/12 giving a few weeks for levels to fall and be just within the reference range.
I don't want to jump to conclusions but could this be the answer all along - lead poisoning. I eat 7 or 8 servings of fruit and veg per day so should be fine for Vit C, but doesn't Vit C get used up removing heavy metals?
Download link to the report is below if anyone is good with them. There are some othere values slightly high and low but lead would seem to be the stand out one due to its toxicity - explaining the RT3?
Also, my second adrenal stress index came back (first one earlier in the thread was December when cortisol was low) and now cortisol is HIGH! if anything. Pours further fire on the idea of adrenal 'fatigue'
05-03-2012, 03:58 PM
05-03-2012, 04:54 PM
I was listening all along my good man I just did not have the finances to get the nutreval done until now. How do I go about removing this lead then? Just increase vitamin C to a high dose? Or do I need to investigate chelation therapies?
05-03-2012, 09:20 PM
Lead would be least of my concerns ....you have the evidence do not go on wild goose chase..Originally Posted by qwerty42
05-04-2012, 01:12 AM
Ok if lead is the least of my concerns then I am completely lost - can you clear some inbox space so I can PM you re: a consultation. Thanks
05-04-2012, 07:12 AM
DoneOriginally Posted by qwerty42
05-04-2012, 08:24 AM
Have just got my latest bloods back from my endo as well. Taken at 1:15pm which I know is not optimum for measuring testosterone but its rock bottom neverthless.
Cortisol over the top of the range which ties in with my salivary cortisol results. ACTH also firing to full capacity. So much for exhausted adrenals.
Testosterone 9.8nmol/l (9-40)
Cortisol 590 nmol/l (140-500) *
ACTH 11pmol/l (2.0-11)
SHBG 20 nmol/l (12-78)
IGF1 40nmol/l (15-64)
TSH 1.2 mU/l (0.3 -6.00)
FT4 15.6 pmol/l (10-22)
A’dione 3.4 nmol/l (1.0-8.5)
DHEAS 10.6umol/l (0.3-12.0)
LH 3.8 U/L (No range given)
FSH 5.7 U/L (No range given)
Progesterone 2.6 nmol/l (No range given)
Oestradiol <50pmol/l (No range given)
Prolactin 121 mU/l (<350)
Urea & Electrolytes
Sodium 142 mmol/L (133 – 146)
Potassium 4.2 mmol/l (3.5 – 5.3)
Chloride 102 mmol/l (95-108)
Bicarbonate 29 mmol/l (22-29)
Urea 7.8 mmol/l (2.5-7.8)
Creatinine 101 umol/l (50-130)
eGFR 77 ml/min1.73m^2>60
Anion Gap 15 mmol/L (6-16)
Total CK 137 U/L (40-320)
CRP <5 mg/L (<5)
Total LDH 311 U/L (0-450)
Albumin 50 g/l (35-50)
Total Pro 69 g/l (60-80)
Globulin 19 g/L (19-35)
Alk Phos’ase 56 U/L (30-130)
Bilirubin Total 7 umol/l (<21)
ALT 32 U/L (<35)
Gamma GT 13 U/L (<50)
HB 14.5 g/dl (13.0- 16.7)
Haematocrit 40.0 % (39-50)
Mean Cell Volume 95.5 fl (80-100)
Platelets 223 x10^9/l (150-400)
WBC 5.3 x10^9/l (3.5 -11)
Neutrophilis 2.6 x10^9/l (2.0-7.5)
Lymphocytes 1.9 x10^9/l (1.0-3.5)
Monocytes 0.5 x10^9/l (0.2-0.8)
Eosinophils 0.3 x10^9/l (0.0-0.4)
Basophils 0.0 x10^9/l (0.0 – 0.2)
05-09-2012, 10:54 AM
For anyone still following along I read this article which briefly explains the gut - thyroid connection.
The theory I'm currently considering:
Overtraining and calorie restriction drives up my cortisol and RT3 resulting in lowered immunity and low body temperature. Some form of dysbiosis / candida etc (don't know enough about them yet) starts spreading in my gut which would normally have been killed off at a normal body temperature with normal immunity.
They precipitate continued impaired conversion of T4 to T3 as explained in that article and continually disrupt proper absorption of nutrients resulting in continued lower immunity, hence the continued sinus problems I have been having. Now the dysbiosis remains despite good diet / no training / lots of sleep and hence me possibly chasing the wrong stressor in the overtraining, which is obviously no longer going on now.
The question is how to remove it iif it is there? One option,I am theorising, is just to use T3 for a time to increase body temperature to normal, removing the right envorinment (low temperature) for it to live.
There are of course pro biotics, things to 'heal' the gut wall, elimination diets etc but I'm not well versed in any of them. (I'm obviously not particularly well versed in T3 or the thyroid either, but its what I've focused the bulk of my research on along with the rest of the endocrine system)
I guess that is why we employ the experts, looking forward to getting matrix take on it in my consultation.
05-09-2012, 11:08 AM
A few things I can add are definitely don't go with just T3-only. I did that (100mcg T3/day for 10 weeks) and it crushed my rT3 (out of range low) and brought my TSH to technically hyperthyroidism (though I didn't experience any of the symptoms), but it also dropped my T4 levels low out of range, which isn't good. It also didn't bring my body temp up to 98.6 or over it, ever.
An elimination diet might not be a bad idea. I still haven't done one (aside from going gluten free and not touching anything with yeast since early January), but I may.
I'll be interested in what Shawn (The Matrix) has to say to you. I'm still working through all of my stuff, as well. Just know I'll be fighting this battle with you, buddy.
Psalm 34:10 - "The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing."
EvoMuse Rep | Inspire to Evolve
05-09-2012, 11:24 AM
Thanks man- interesting to know about your experience with the T3 - as you say its likely not time to try that.
The other half of my nutreval test confirmed I have zero allergies or intolerances, including to gluten, grains or dairy. I, like you, have cut out all bread etc anyway as I don't feel its a great source of carbohydrate anyway.
The Candida diet seems to suggest a zero sugar, including fructose, diet at all to starve any growths in the stomach and there does not seem to be massive success with it anyway. I'm sure there must be a better way as fruits are too nutritious to cut out.
Cheers for the kind words, will keep updating the thread as we go.
05-09-2012, 11:58 AM
FYI the biggest mistakes made by people is going after the wrong sequence of events. You need to address the GI tract first get things moving before going after methylation or you will put your self into a potential dangerous situation..this is why havong case history is crucial. Amazing the reaction when first question out of my mouth is "how are your bowel moments"..KODAK MOMENT, but that will dicate what happens first in any case. Go back and read my post 30% of people who have altered intestinal permeablity are shown to have no Gi related issues. This is why these test are crucial it picks up hidden things.
I tried this approach and ended up bed righten for almost a week.
Your pouring draino into a toilet full of SHIZT, you need to stop crapping in it first before the draino can do its good.
05-09-2012, 01:09 PM
Have pm'd you as have not got mail yet?
I'm bowing to you on this one, as I've done zero research into the gut really or methylation. All of my effort has been spent trying to learn about hormones this past 12 months so I'm fresh out of mental energy!
You were right to call the gut early on, I just was unsure as I have good sized, frequent stools, no gas or constipation etc but the Nutreval says otherwise so its over to you!
05-09-2012, 01:20 PM
05-30-2012, 12:47 PM
Just to update - I haven't been on in a couple of weeks as I've been trying to zone out from all the researching and reading as a means of chilling out on the stress of the whole situation.
But I am only 10 days into some of the changes that I discussed with Shawn (some of which JanSZ noted) and some of my symptoms have shown improvements already. I'm slowly adding in supplements in and logging any changes for better or worse.
As said I won't be discussing specifics supplement recommendations which may work for me may not work for others and because of individual chemistry. There is no cookie cutter approach; every ones body is different and my case seems particularly complex.
With that said we are adressing my fatty acid balance, cutting out EPA for now and upping ALA sources of Hemp Butter & Walnut oil, adding supplements to target the bacterial dysbiosis and heal the GI system and adding precursors to boost gluthatione levels.
In terms of how which symptoms have shown change already:
*Dry & Photophobic eyes - have to wear sunglasses using screens and was putting liquid tear solution in every hour. 14 days in and I'm no longer having to apply the gel as they are not really dry, just still sensitive to light. This is pretty major as it is the symptom that was most likely to stop me from working and thus paying for further treament / tests. So a definite plus.
*Fatigue - no where near as tired already, can make it 6am - 10pm with no nap and Shawn had me gradually add in some exercise. I'm currently doing 40 min 130bmp cardio (low intensity) in a sauna suit to get some sweating on to help detoxify aid the immune system. On a scale of 1-10 with 1 being bed bound and 10 peforming in added time of high level sport (where I used to be) I'd say I've gone from a 4 to a 6 in two weeks.
*Mood is better - I think because I've finally had someone explain things to me and how everything can explain some of the worrying symptoms I'd had like the previous anxiety etc
*Libido - Although no real desire or checking out women or anywhere near back to the previous v high libido I had, given it was 0% as in nothing, it makes it easy to notice a a 5-10% increase already. Weak but consistent morning erections now and flaccid member size is closer to previous usual size, and it and testicles hanging a little bit lower / more freely. Not sure about their size, never really noticed their size pre-getting sick so couldn't comment.
Some symptoms have shown no change yet - still waking at night and I'm still congested most of the time but for less than 2 full weeks in I'm very hopeful of continuing to make progress.
Matrix/Shawn sometimes doesn't come across well grammatically on the forums but the difference in person is night and day. He is articulate and really good at breaking things down. Most notably he has made me realise that unless one has a structural defect causing the low hormones then there are so many paths to investigate before jumping on HRT.
Hopefully this is the begining of some real progress for me, will keep updating.
05-31-2012, 09:59 PM
Thanks for the update, I've been following along as I think I may have some gut problems as well. Earlier you mentioned you found out your high level of lead was causing a vitamin C deficiency, and matrix suggesting lead should not be your concern... this confused me. Is that not related to the gut-thyroid thing you are investigating with matrix?
06-01-2012, 07:42 AM
11-10-2012, 08:37 AM
Would love an update on this. Feel I may be in a similar situation but reading all your protocols has been very interesting
11-10-2012, 02:27 PM
Can you just give us a rundown of what supplements are working for you?? It isn't for us to copy your protocol or anything bc everyone is indeed different. But it can help us learn and give us food for thought.
11-10-2012, 04:25 PM
11-10-2012, 11:29 PM
I understand not wanting people to hurt themselves but I don't see anything wrong with divulging such info. We are all here to learn. It doesn't have to be a mystery.
11-11-2012, 05:55 AM
11-11-2012, 03:20 PM
As an update-
I've had the Metametrix GI Effects stool test done and no real problems were found there; no chronic infections etc I do have some malabsorption of fats.
I've had hair tissue mineral analysis and no real levels of toxic metals have been found.
I've also had Lyme testing done that was negative. Can't really ever remember a rash or tick bite anyway.
I've had up to date endocrine bloods done and they look OK. Testosterone still on the low side but everything else fine.
Blood test 11/01/12
SHBG 23 nmol/l (13 - 71)
LH 7.60 iu/L
FSH 7.50 iu/L (No range given)
Total Testosterone 14.4 nmol/l (8.50 - 29.0)
FT4 15 pmol/l (8 - 21pmol/l)
FT3 4.8pmol/l (2.50 - 6.50pmol/l)
TSH 1.80 mu/L (0.4 - 4.5)
Oestradiol 20pmol/l (<80 in men)
AM cortisol 670nmol/l (0-700)
Reverse T3 0.36 pmol/ mL (0.15 - 0.54 - ideal less than 0.48)
Sample1: 22.4 nmol/l (12-22) 97.0F 60BPM
Sample2: 4.6 nmol/l (5-9) 98.2F 74 BPM
Sample3: 6.9 nmol/l (3-7) 97.9F 68BPM (Had 30 minute nap immediately after this sample)
Sample4: 2.3 nmol/l (1-3) 98.1F 80 BPM
DHEA Mean: 0.75 nmol/l (0.40 - 1.47)
DHEA : Cortisol Ratio: 2.07 (2-6)
Total daily cortisol 36.2 (21-41 nmol/l)
Notably my thyroid is fine, the RT3 has come down, which makes me wonder why I'm still experiencing low body temperature in addition to the rest of my symptoms.
Current symptoms are:
* Low mood. This is not been a problem for the whole of the 18 months really but now starting to get tearful randomly and think pretty dark thoughts. Wouldn't self harm but also feeling like I wouldn't be too bothered if I didn't wake up.
* Agonizingly dry & photophobic right eye -specifically the right one, left seems ok.
* Fatigue throughout the day and brain fog / difficulty concentrating. No exercise capacity.
* Sinus congestion during the night. Wake up 3-30 -4 AM every night completely congested and incredibly thirsty. Pint of water eases the congestion.
* Still no libido at all. Not even an inkling. No random erections, sporadic weak morning wood. Flaccid size is markedly reduced to the tune of less than half the usual size. Testicles also half the size they were before symptoms began 18 months ago.
I've just had my 23andme results back and will be going over them with Matrix. I'm really hoping that they can shed some light on things as I'm not sure there is much else left to test for. With a bit of luck my SNP wills reveal something glaringly obvious that is likely to be wrong with my methylation cycle and can be corrected.
My complete lack of libido despite a relatively normal testosterone level is making me think it is a neurotransmitter issue, with them possibly not being made properly due to dysfunctional methylation. I appreciate it is not an ideal level of testosterone but people do get by with that level I couldn't have less libido if I tried!
Symptoms have progressed to the point where I'm now off work, so in a way I'm glad theres not much left to test for.
Don't really want to approach GP with the low mood as they're likely to try and pin all of the physical symptoms on it- even though I've had the other symptoms for 18 + months and I'm only starting to really struggle psychologically now.
To discover once and for all whether it is the low normal testosterone causing symptoms (I doubt it now) I started last week on self prescribed Test Cyp 40mg x 2 per week injecting sub-q. So far nothing but I will be getting my Testosterone level checked in a couple of weeks - I honestly imagine it is going to come back fairly high though.
Its not a matter of secrecy - I just don't understand enough about it to be able to tell you what is what!
I have come to realize that it is more complicated than just giving B12 and Folate, but this isn't a bad thing to read in terms of understanding the methylation cycle can cause quite a few problems - (Can't post links so search: Dr Sarah Myhill Methylation Cycle)
I can tell you that one of the 23andme results I do understand is that I have the MTHFR enzyme deficiency and as a result folic acid is pretty bad for me - body struggles to convert. I'm off all supplementation completely as of 10 days ago but had been taking 400mcg in my multi and 400mcg in my B-complex.
I've been gluten, caffeine and alcohol free for 8 months now and I can tell you that doesn't seemed to have helped. From my reading I don't think gluten is particularly great for anyone though and I don't miss it that much. Diet is just vegetables, fruit, meat and some seafood really. I have organic butter but not milk. I also use coconut oil liberally to cook with.
Hope this answers some questions. I think an important realization is that my thyroid numbers are fine and my adrenals are OK yet I still have low / fluctuating body temperature. Something is going wrong with energy production at the cellular level I believe and that is where methylation and the Krebs cycle come into play, I believe.
I've spent the last 18 months learning about hormones and I've always had an interest in diet and nutrition following the likes of Alan Aragon and Lyle Mcdonald, but the epigenetics is a whole new ball game, way over my head and I'm looking forward to having Matrix guide me on it.
Hope this helps some people.
11-11-2012, 04:19 PM
I would first try taking a CHOLINE BITARTRATE supplement.
After 2 days add some MOLYBDENUM.
Then add B6(5P5), B9(Metafolin), M-B12 (methlycobalamin), and AD-B12(dibencozide).
See if that helps with the nightly congestion.
I think you could use 5mg of DHEA, ED.
11-11-2012, 04:26 PM
Thanks for the input - I'm having my consultation tomorrow though so will being going off suggestions thoroughly. Will try and keep this thread more up to date. I would say, from what I now understand, I think I'd have been better off doing some of the testing the other way round. They're expensive tests and in hindsight should have done
3rd. Gi Effects
11-11-2012, 04:39 PM
11-11-2012, 04:54 PM
This thread has been pretty comprehensive (let's be honest...he's going so far as genetic testing through 23andMe).
That said, in addition to the above there's still more you can test like food sensitivities, gluten cross reactivity, infectious diseases, autoimmunity,etc.
Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
11-11-2012, 04:58 PM
A relatively new company has started to do testing for gut permiability, gluten sensitivity (more comprehensive than just Transglutaminase and deamidated gliadin.... they're testing for IgA and IgG responses to other parts of the wheat kernel), gluten cross reactivity, and autoimmune testing related to gluten sensitivity.
Google: Cyrex Labs
Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.
11-11-2012, 07:03 PM
11-11-2012, 09:17 PM
Sinus congestion during the night. Wake up 3-30 -4 AM every night completely congested and incredibly thirsty. Pint of water eases the congestion.
I'm really stuck on this one. CONGESTION?(mucus) or ANGIOEDEMA(nasal swelling)? Water is a fast cure?
I have no personal, common, experiences..... how can water cure anything? (I'm thinking out loud here)
Do you have PROGESTERONE levels? IgE?
11-11-2012, 11:57 PM
11-12-2012, 01:03 AM
Yeah, but MAIS is definitely a more severe type of hormone imbalance that can cause all types of issues that vary greatly from one person to another. It was just a thought but now that I think of it, I think they typically have HIGH Test and LH, not low test with higher LH. Oh well
11-12-2012, 02:44 AM
are the bulk of your blood tests still through the NHS? do you consult an Endo or a GP? how do you get around them just saying everything is "in range" yet you still feel like crap. i'm the same age as you and my last blooddraw was 11.4nmol, docs of course dont want to help. Tried to start my own thread but it said it needed approval, how many posts do you need to start a thread? anyone know?
11-12-2012, 07:40 AM
Thanks for the suggestion. In terms of gluten sensitivity, I've had two basic tests one from Genova FACT and the Metametrix GI Effects show no real problems with gluten. Having said that I have cut out gluten anyway for the last 8 months, very strictly, but can't really report any improvements.
I would say, and I don't know whether this is related to a low metabolism or low dopamine instead of food choices, but since I switched to this way of eating strictly with no gluten, I don't crave any foods anymore. I remember back when I used to eat cereals, breads etc I would crave them horrendously. Not particularly relevant but interestingly never the less.
acidvoodoo - my endocrine bloods have mostly been through the NHS, although each Dr will generally only check hormone levels once every 6 months - hence some are from an endo, some are from my initial GP and I just changed GP to get the latest ones. It is a farce the hoops we have to jump through.
It might be worthwhile you ringing your Primary Care Trust to find out if there is a needle exchange with steroid clinic in your area. They should check your Testosterone levels for free and Liver function tests and they only take your initials and phone you with the results. Doesn't go on file and your GP doesn't find out. I'm NW based and am going to travel to Manchester to get it done.
If you've read my thread you'll understand my contempt for the NHS as a whole. If you want to try and get treatment however, then you should print out the UK Guidelines for Management of Androgen Deficiency in Men which state that a Testosterone level between 8-12 nmol/l WITH symptoms of low testosterone can be considered for a 6 month trial of TRT.
However - at your age I'd do some more reading of the forum and look for reasons you may be low. There are countless and my thread documents a lot of them. TRT at our age is, short of structural endocrine failure, not the best idea IMO.
As far as I know you should be able to start your own thread - hope this helps.
11-12-2012, 07:44 AM
Its no mucus but swelling instead. With a post nasal drip as well. Water does help it and it actually hasn't been as pronounced the last 3-4 nights.
(The changes I've made in the last 10 days include dropping all supplementation and starting Test - Cyp )
11-12-2012, 08:15 AM
Yes I deffo do not want trt. Like you I'm trying to get to the root of it. First I'm looking at adrenals and awaiting an ultra sound. Thenn I think ill have to explore thyroid and liver function.
My current gp was like a temp, and thus why he was willing to give me the extensive tests as it wasn't his practice so he didn't care about the precious budget. So you think its reasonable to request refferal to an endo based on my 11.4 reading. Even if the endo does nothing but allow Mr to track my levels like you have, while working out the root cause.
Will try and get my own thread up
11-12-2012, 08:25 AM
I'd definitely request an endo consultation. They're not great but they can perform ultrasounds / MRIs to rule out structural problems with your pituitary or testicles.
If there is damage to either then you may well need TRT, if not however then I'd keep digging.
11-12-2012, 08:30 AM
There is one in my area that at least seems to have some published work on hypogonadism, and looks like he wrote an article saying measures of less then 11 need further investigation. Any idea if the NHS let's you request a specific consultant? Going to see a diabetes endo seems pointless imo
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