WHY does test convert into estrogen

[MakaveliThaDon]

We all know it does via aromatase. The one cause I know of is bodyfat. However let's take a male who is in extremely good shape, single digit bodyfat percentage, who is suffering from low testosterone and high estrogen. Now an AI WILL help out, but you aren't fixing the problem, your just covering it up. What would an actual clinical reason be for someone in such good shape having all his testosterone be converted into estrogen?

 

[bashman]

because he has a vagina

 

[RedwolfWV]

Does this guy exist? Or is this a hypothetical question.

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

Does this guy exist? Or is this a hypothetical question.

it's a hypothetical question just for me to get a better grasp on the testosterone to estrogen connection. I've read hundreds of articles on the fact that it does convert into estrogen, I've just never heard an actual reason for why it happens. Like perhaps a pituitary disorder or something...

 

[The Matrix]

Genetics
ability to detoxify estrogens through the metabolic pathways (cytochrome p450)
amount of adipose tissue
thyroid and adrenal function
xenoestrogen exposure from environment
phytonutrients from food consumption
ect ect ect

 

[Harry Manback]

Genetics
ability to detoxify estrogens through the metabolic pathways (cytochrome p450)
amount of adipose tissue
thyroid and adrenal function
xenoestrogen exposure from environment
phytonutrients from food consumption
ect ect ect

Hmm. Well it seems like you know what you are talking about. But riddle me this one, if the moon were made of cheese..would you eat it?

 

[EasyEJL]

it's a hypothetical question just for me to get a better grasp on the testosterone to estrogen connection. I've read hundreds of articles on the fact that it does convert into estrogen, I've just never heard an actual reason for why it happens. Like perhaps a pituitary disorder or something...

If you are looking for "why" its because estrogen is a necessary hormone in men as well. Knock your estrogen to 0 for a short time and you'll develop a number of health issues. Just as testosterone is a necessary hormone for women.

 

[The Matrix]

Hmm. Well it seems like you know what you are talking about. But riddle me this one, if the moon were made of cheese..would you eat it?

The cows would have to be able to jump over the moon then I may consider it. Better I need to wait for the cows to come home first :yup:

 

[Harry Manback]

The cows would have to be able to jump over the moon then I may consider it. Better I need to wait for the cows to come home first :yup:

You sir have my respect.

 

[Bry17]

We all know it does via aromatase. The one cause I know of is bodyfat. However let's take a male who is in extremely good shape, single digit bodyfat percentage, who is suffering from low testosterone and high estrogen. Now an AI WILL help out, but you aren't fixing the problem, your just covering it up. What would an actual clinical reason be for someone in such good shape having all his testosterone be converted into estrogen?

Real world answer:
Estrogen, much like Dihydrotestosterone and testosterone, is needed to maintain sexual function, psychosexual function, HPTA balance, muscle repair and functionality, and a lot of other bodily mechanisms. Test metabolizes to both because it's a necessary human condition for the quality of life.

Scientific answer:
Test undergoes oxidative metabolism (in vivo) of the C19 methyl group to eventually leave a hydrogen at C10. Pi bonds are then formed from CYP450 aromatase and subsequent hydrogen ion subtractions at ring A to produce the 3 bonds that characterize estradiol.

 

[RedwolfWV]

We all know it does via aromatase. The one cause I know of is bodyfat. However let's take a male who is in extremely good shape, single digit bodyfat percentage, who is suffering from low testosterone and high estrogen. Now an AI WILL help out, but you aren't fixing the problem, your just covering it up. What would an actual clinical reason be for someone in such good shape having all his testosterone be converted into estrogen?

Ok.. Well I guess I just dont see this happening... Even hypothetically. I dont think this guy would be that lean, and in "extremely good shape"... Not with High estrogen levels and low test. Maybe in decent shape and average bodyfat, but not single digits

 

[Bry17]

Scientific answer:
Test undergoes oxidative metabolism (in vivo) of the C19 methyl group to eventually leave a hydrogen at C10. Pi bonds are then formed from CYP450 aromatase and subsequent hydrogen ion subtractions at ring A to produce the 3 bonds that characterize estradiol.

^Also, I left out 3b-HSD reduction to a hydroxyl group at C3.

 

[hardknock]

We all know it does via aromatase. The one cause I know of is bodyfat. However let's take a male who is in extremely good shape, single digit bodyfat percentage, who is suffering from low testosterone and high estrogen. Now an AI WILL help out, but you aren't fixing the problem, your just covering it up. What would an actual clinical reason be for someone in such good shape having all his testosterone be converted into estrogen?

I am not sure I follow you. I am assuming you mean "good shape" in terms of having substantial muscle mass? So, I ask the question, how would he have "ALL" of his test convert to estro if he has all of this harden muscle form? Oxy. But in all sense, the body is designed for balance and it does everything possible to keep that homeostasis

 

[hardknock]

Real world answer:
Estrogen, much like Dihydrotestosterone and testosterone, is needed to maintain sexual function, psychosexual function, HPTA balance, muscle repair and functionality, and a lot of other bodily mechanisms. Test metabolizes to both because it's a necessary human condition for the quality of life.

Scientific answer:
Test undergoes oxidative metabolism (in vivo) of the C19 methyl group to eventually leave a hydrogen at C10. Pi bonds are then formed from CYP450 aromatase and subsequent hydrogen ion subtractions at ring A to produce the 3 bonds that characterize estradiol.

Your real world answer speaks more volume than the scientific one. The science one speaks on what, the real world answer speaks on why which is much more usable.

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

When you guys say homeostatis, and you have to humor me here with this basic question. But is homeostasis a constant for all people? For instance maybe the hormonal homeostasis of my body is different than yours. Maybe it's normal for my body to have low testosterone, and so therefore a rise in test levels with illicit a quick rise in estrogen to try and reach MY homeostasis which is somewhat low testosterone.

While in another person, maybe his hormonal homeostasis is a bit different, maybe his is having naturally high levels of testosterone, and a boost in test levels for him would not bring about such a great spike in estrogen to combat it.

I'm really just thinking out loud here, I read a decent post over at allthingsmale about E2 and SHBG being the bodys defense mechanisms to reduce high T. And that's what got me curious about how some of these all fit together.

But surely homeostasis can't be the same for every person across the board?

 

[EasyEJL]

No, homeostasis is individual. My personal "normal" levels for test were 280, with E2 at 45 and SHBG pretty low

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

No, homeostasis is individual. My personal "normal" levels for test were 280, with E2 at 45 and SHBG pretty low

thanks for the response bro. That E2 is pretty high. You mentioned before you are on test cyp, something like 150-200 every 2 weeks? I'm assuming this is to bring your normal level of 280 up to at least an average level. You did not have any problems with E2 or SHBG increasing even further when you started this?

 

[EasyEJL]

My shbg has stayed low, and E2 has gone over 60 but i'm not experiencing issues from that. I was at 200/wk on test cyp, but i've lowered it to 100 a week now to sit like that for a while and see how it goes as the 200 a week isn't necessary for sure

 

[The Matrix]

When you guys say homeostatis, and you have to humor me here with this basic question. But is homeostasis a constant for all people? For instance maybe the hormonal homeostasis of my body is different than yours. Maybe it's normal for my body to have low testosterone, and so therefore a rise in test levels with illicit a quick rise in estrogen to try and reach MY homeostasis which is somewhat low testosterone.

While in another person, maybe his hormonal homeostasis is a bit different, maybe his is having naturally high levels of testosterone, and a boost in test levels for him would not bring about such a great spike in estrogen to combat it.

I'm really just thinking out loud here, I read a decent post over at allthingsmale about E2 and SHBG being the bodys defense mechanisms to reduce high T. And that's what got me curious about how some of these all fit together.

But surely homeostasis can't be the same for every person across the board?

One word answer "bioindviduality"
Some people can not get that simple concept and worse off drs totally ignore it. Then they wonder why people have symptoms in the normal ranges..

 

[The Matrix]

Real world answer:
Estrogen, much like Dihydrotestosterone and testosterone, is needed to maintain sexual function, psychosexual function, HPTA balance, muscle repair and functionality, and a lot of other bodily mechanisms. Test metabolizes to both because it's a necessary human condition for the quality of life.

Scientific answer:
Test undergoes oxidative metabolism (in vivo) of the C19 methyl group to eventually leave a hydrogen at C10. Pi bonds are then formed from CYP450 aromatase and subsequent hydrogen ion subtractions at ring A to produce the 3 bonds that characterize estradiol.

And what did I mention in my first post?
:blink:

 

[Bry17]

And what did I mention in my first post?
:blink:

I dunno.

 

[The Matrix]

Alterations in cyp1a1 and other cytochrome p450 enzymes. This is how I resolve alot of guys e2 issue by balancing the enzymatic pathways in the liver.

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

One word answer "bioindviduality"
Some people can not get that simple concept and worse off drs totally ignore it. Then they wonder why people have symptoms in the normal ranges..

Bioindividuality. I like it. That really explains it about as good as you can right there.

 

[The Matrix]

Bioindividuality. I like it. That really explains it about as good as you can right there.

The typical analogy I use with Dr's is

"The one shoe fits all approach"
Trying to fit some one who is a 11 into a size 5. It just does not work.

I still do not understand why they do not get this concept.


The best one to piss a dr off is this one .

"Dr you play golf right?
Dr : YEP

"You are teeing off and I am your caddy . I hand you a driver"
I hand the dr a driver is 18 inches long

Dr: What am I suppose to do with this?

You asked for a driver so I gave you a driver to tee off
Dr: How am I suppose to tee off with this thing?

Dr hands it back to me I reach in and give him one that is 6 ft long.:rasp:

Dr: What the hell is this? onder:
Its a driver for you to tee off.
Dr: This thing is useless, and has no purpose

Finally,
I reach in and pull out this club, you can see the gleem in Dr's eye hes happy as a clam as well in his zone. :veryhappy:

Dr: Now this is the one I have been looking for, it feels just right, great grip, and very stiff,

"Now you know how my dik is suppose to feel"

 

[Bob Jones]

matrix , I think the same is with diet . Everyone has different needs and handle foods differently. it has taken a while for me to get my diet right , and I am still working on it .

 

[The Matrix]

matrix , I think the same is with diet . Everyone has different needs and handle foods differently. it has taken a while for me to get my diet right , and I am still working on it .

Its not dieting or eating patterns, but the fact that a person inner terrain is all out of balance which take the food that nourishes us and turns it into a poison. I have done hundreds of comprehensive nutritional evaluations that revealed that majority of what you are eating is not being absorbed properly.
I am a master of the gut and liver pathways. People that are on HRT hormones are perfect, thyroid, adrenals incheck still feel like crap (libido, deperssion,ect) are the majority of people I deal with. The one that slips thorugh the cracks and are still seeking answer. Fix the gut and balance the liver majority of issues tend to resolve them selve over time. I just smile when people how well they eat, but when I look at their biochemistry they are end up poisoning them seves never evening knowing it. I learned all this from my own personal experience dealing with idiot drs and took matters in my own hands. Now I am able to help people that dr's are clueless about.

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

Are estrogen related side effects directly related to only the estrogen value? Or are they directly related to the T to E ratio in your body?

For instance if your E2 is up in 45-low 50 range (which is obviously high) but your T is also up on the high side, would the decent T to E ratio minimize estrogen related side effects?

As opposed to if your E2 was up in that high end range, but your T was on the low end of the spectrum down into the 250-350 range. Would this worse T to E ratio make the E2 have a much more pronounced effect on things such as weight gain/bloat/etc...?

I hope I was able to explain what I mean, lol.

 

[EasyEJL]

my levels naturally were the way you describe in the second scenario (low T high E2) and other than possibly fat retention distribution I had no estrogenic sides