Slin-Sane v2

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Smitty answered the question perfectly, though I must ask, do you have a link to the half-life on norvaline. All the data I've seen indicate a short half-life but extended after-effects on the urea cycle.
    My apologies, I didn't do the simple math; half-life is estimated at ~3 hours:
    http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.58608.html (Properties, EPISuite)
    HYBRID Performance Nutrition
    Mike ~ R/D


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
    Banaba and gymnema both have short half-lives (banaba is 20 mins., actually, and gymnema isn't too much longer); norvaline is active for about 6 hours. The nutrients of that meal are moved along very quickly, not necessarily over the next hour, but SS's ingredients work in concert to keep things continuous.
    I am sure I missing something major here, but I am not sure I understand how banaba and gymnema can work in concert with other ingredients if they are only active for 20 minutes. Could you please explain that? Thanks.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
    My apologies, I didn't do the simple math; half-life is estimated at ~3 hours:
    http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.58608.html (Properties, EPISuite)
    That's the atmospheric half-life predicted based on reactions with hydroxyl radicals. The biological half-life is different, and it's been a while since I looked into it, but I recall it being <1 hour in theory.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I haven't looked into the novel ingredient in SSv2, but the Na-R-ALA/banaba will increase insulin sensitivity and provide insulinomimetic action...
    What is an "insulinomimetic action?" Does it fool the body into thinking that it releases insulin when no actual insulin (or a decreased dosage) has actually been released by the body?

    The gymnema in v1 is great for proper pancreatic function and serves as a carb blocker as well.
    When you say "a carb blocker," do you mean that it blocks any carbs regardless of the source? The reason I ask is because, Phase 2 (White Bean Extract), for example, also blocks carbs, but only starches.

    I am still a bit confused about the real purpose behind using GDAs in general and something like SS (v1 or v2) in particular. Here is how I understand this whole thing: If something - in this case gymnema - blocks carbs and something else - in this case Na-R-ALA/banaba - minimizes insulin release, then it sounds like perfect supplement for someone who wants to minimize the impact of carbs on the body. That is great, but if the purpose is to block carbs and minimize insulin release, how is it beneficial for muscle building? That is what I do not understand. I mean, it sounds like a supplement for somebody who wants to "cheat" on a low-carb diet and, for the most part, get away with it. There is nothing wrong with that, I just want to make sure that I understand correctly what this supplement is for.

    Please explain. Thank you.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by John33 View Post
    What is an "insulinomimetic action?" Does it fool the body into thinking that it releases insulin when no actual insulin (or a decreased dosage) has actually been released by the body?

    When you say "a carb blocker," do you mean that it blocks any carbs regardless of the source? The reason I ask is because, Phase 2 (White Bean Extract), for example, also blocks carbs, but only starches.

    I am still a bit confused about the real purpose behind using GDAs in general and something like SS (v1 or v2) in particular. Here is how I understand this whole thing: If something - in this case gymnema - blocks carbs and something else - in this case Na-R-ALA/banaba - minimizes insulin release, then it sounds like perfect supplement for someone who wants to minimize the impact of carbs on the body. That is great, but if the purpose is to block carbs and minimize insulin release, how is it beneficial for muscle building? That is what I do not understand. I mean, it sounds like a supplement for somebody who wants to "cheat" on a low-carb diet and, for the most part, get away with it. There is nothing wrong with that, I just want to make sure that I understand correctly what this supplement is for.

    Please explain. Thank you.
    "Fool" is the improper term. It simply disposes of blood glucose, much like insulin, but without the feedback on other bodily processes (for the most part).

    Gymnema is a glucose blocker, and since glucose comprises the majority of all foods we are consuming (unless pounding soda rich in HFCS and milk rich in galactose), it blocks a rather broad category of carbs.

    The carb-blockers are more for people who are cutting/cheating, but improving insulin sensitivity is more of a health thing. The impact of a GDA (note: GDA, not carb blocker) on muscle building will be minimal.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    The carb-blockers are more for people who are cutting/cheating, but improving insulin sensitivity is more of a health thing. The impact of a GDA (note: GDA, not carb blocker) on muscle building will be minimal.
    What is the purpose of taking a GDA and then consuming a lot of carbs? The reason I ask is because it says on all GDA products to take a serving of a given GDA supplement and then, 15 to 20 minutes later, to consume a lot of carbs before a workout? If a given GDA basically minimizes the impact of carbs on the body, then why take it in the first place?

    Also, why do people say that after taking a GDA and then consuming carbs, their muscles feel "fuller" (as if the muscles are pumped)? Is it just a placebo?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by John33 View Post
    What is the purpose of taking a GDA and then consuming a lot of carbs? The reason I ask is because it says on all GDA products to take a serving of a given GDA supplement and then, 15 to 20 minutes later, to consume a lot of carbs before a workout? If a given GDA basically minimizes the impact of carbs on the body, then why take it in the first place?

    Also, why do people say that after taking a GDA and then consuming carbs, their muscles feel "fuller" (as if the muscles are pumped)? Is it just a placebo?
    I'll let Smitty take it from here. I've been hounding this thread long enough .

    I'll just end with:

    A. The impact of carbs on the body is FAR from limited to simple insulin secretion.

    B. Muscles feeling fuller could be due to increased glycogen storage.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    That's the atmospheric half-life predicted based on reactions with hydroxyl radicals. The biological half-life is different, and it's been a while since I looked into it, but I recall it being <1 hour in theory.
    You always know how to set me straight, sir... Even if less than an hour, that glucose translocation process is well underway.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    The carb-blockers are more for people who are cutting/cheating, but improving insulin sensitivity is more of a health thing. The impact of a GDA (note: GDA, not carb blocker) on muscle building will be minimal.
    I think the indirect effect is what most people are looking for when answering this type of question for the casual consumer...

    Simply stated, John, what most will notice is that using a GDA prior to a meal will leave you with less of a full/bloated feeling. This, in turn, would allow you to consume more calories. We know an excess of calories = bulk, provided you're eating the right types of calories. Some might have this misconception that popping a cap and polishing off a half-gallon of ice cream is a safe zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by John33 View Post
    What is the purpose of taking a GDA and then consuming a lot of carbs? The reason I ask is because it says on all GDA products to take a serving of a given GDA supplement and then, 15 to 20 minutes later, to consume a lot of carbs before a workout? If a given GDA basically minimizes the impact of carbs on the body, then why take it in the first place?

    Also, why do people say that after taking a GDA and then consuming carbs, their muscles feel "fuller" (as if the muscles are pumped)? Is it just a placebo?
    To answer your second question first, Coop nailed it. It's due to glycogen storage. This pump that people experience when training is due specifically to that; you would get a pump if consuming carbs pre-WO anyhow. A GDA expedites the process, is all.

    But, yes, it's a general health supplement that has a number of indirect benefits that relate more to feeding: intra-WO endurance will improve, as will recovery because your body is making better use of the carbohydrates; improved insulin sensitivity and, with the addition of several new ingredients to SSv2, it's even more of a general health supplement, with additional cardioprotective and anti-oxidant properties, immune system support and neuroprotective effects.

    We want consumers to know that the GDA category isn't to be exploited by companies who are making false and superfluous claims of what the product is capable of doing.
    HYBRID Performance Nutrition
    Mike ~ R/D

  9. Very pleased with the knowledge going on here right now. Two thumbs up for smitty n genomyx - and coop as always

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
    But, yes, it's a general health supplement that has a number of indirect benefits that relate more to feeding: intra-WO endurance will improve, as will recovery because your body is making better use of the carbohydrates; improved insulin sensitivity and, with the addition of several new ingredients to SSv2, it's even more of a general health supplement, with additional cardioprotective and anti-oxidant properties, immune system support and neuroprotective effects.
    Thank you for answering my questions. When is the SSv2 going to be available?

  11. Looking at 3 weeks or less
    Hybrid Performance Nutrition
    GetHybrid.net
    U.S. ARMY MP(CID)

  12. Props to Coop and Smitty for the in depth scientific discussion.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
    Jiaogulan (98% Gypenosides) - 185mg
    Na-R-ALA - 143mg
    Banaba PE (1% Corosolic acid) - 100mg
    L-Norvaline - 100mg
    Biotin - 1mg
    What are your thought on a water-soluble extract of Cinnamon (something like Cinnulin PF, for example) and Bitter Melon. I wonder why they did not make the grade to be included in the new formula.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by John33 View Post
    What are your thought on a water-soluble extract of Cinnamon (something like Cinnulin PF, for example) and Bitter Melon. I wonder why they did not make the grade to be included in the new formula.
    The clinical data on cinnamon is too choppy for us to have gambled on its inclusion; personally, I believe there are far superior ingredients that actually accomplish what cinnamon is proposed to do. Banaba and Na-R-ALA are two such ingredients.

    Bitter melon, while well documented (aside from the comprehensive review found in Cochrane; PMID: 20166099), just couldn't find a home amidst this formula. This isn't to say that we'd never consider using it, as it's a fine ingredient, but we wanted a formula that could perform better than the original, retain that same dosing versatility, and that wouldn't be too potent to prevent users from taking more than one capsule at a time. We couldn't combine a number of anti-diabetic/insulino-mimetic elements and accomplish what we set out to do with this formula; hence why gymnema was omitted.

    However, we hope that the smarter and more curious customers, such as yourself, look into jiaogulan's benefits... then it'll be known why it trumped almost any other ingredient.

    You're keeping me on my toes, John... I appreciate it.
    HYBRID Performance Nutrition
    Mike ~ R/D

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
    However, we hope that the smarter and more curious customers, such as yourself, look into jiaogulan's benefits... then it'll be known why it trumped almost any other ingredient.
    Jiaogulan is a Southern Ginseng, right? If yes, what is the potency of the extract? Is it 10:1, 12:1? Does it contain at least 20% of naturally occurring gypenosides? Thanks.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by John33 View Post
    Jiaogulan is a Southern Ginseng, right? If yes, what is the potency of the extract? Is it 10:1, 12:1? Does it contain at least 20% of naturally occurring gypenosides? Thanks.
    That's the English name, yes... 98% gypenosides.
    HYBRID Performance Nutrition
    Mike ~ R/D

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Smitty77

    That's the English name, yes... 98% gypenosides.
    I like ginseng.. I've used e bol with great results- has 333mg of Korean red ginseng for 10%

  18. Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza View Post
    I like ginseng.. I've used e bol with great results- has 333mg of Korean red ginseng for 10%
    It's certainly a species (ginseng in general) that offers a number of great properties... Which reminds me; below is a very comprehensive outline of what jiaogulan can do. Plenty of research to support the contents, but this provides a great overview:

    http://www.ijrpbsonline.com/files/RV12.pdf
    HYBRID Performance Nutrition
    Mike ~ R/D

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
    It's certainly a species (ginseng in general) that offers a number of great properties... Which reminds me; below is a very comprehensive outline of what jiaogulan can do. Plenty of research to support the contents, but this provides a great overview:

    http://www.ijrpbsonline.com/files/RV12.pdf
    Definitely looks interesting and well worth the swap.
    E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns

  20. Very interesting profile. Jiaogulan is a great herb, I take it daily.
    Xtreme Formulations Forum Rep www.xfmuscle.com

  21. Quote Originally Posted by SupremeMMA View Post
    Very interesting profile. Jiaogulan is a great herb, I take it daily.
    How are you liking it, dude? Been taking it for a while?
    HYBRID Performance Nutrition
    Mike ~ R/D

  22. How does V2 fit in to daily health? I would be interested in using it for overall health.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    How does V2 fit in to daily health? I would be interested in using it for overall health.
    Aside from glucose modulation, the ingredients offer a number of other benefits: anti-oxidant, anti-inflammatory, cardio- and neuro-protective, immune system support. It's also somewhat ergogenic and antihyperlipidemic... If you go back a page, I posted a link to a meta-write up on jiaogulan that discloses all documented benefits.
    HYBRID Performance Nutrition
    Mike ~ R/D

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
    Aside from glucose modulation, the ingredients offer a number of other benefits: anti-oxidant, anti-inflammatory, cardio- and neuro-protective, immune system support. It's also somewhat ergogenic and antihyperlipidemic... If you go back a page, I posted a link to a meta-write up on jiaogulan that discloses all documented benefits.
    Thanks, Smitty. I really don't think I would purposely use it for glucose modulation, but it wouldn't hurt. I'll check back and read some of those links. What would be the potential dosing for just health benefits? Would I still dose it pre-workout?

  25. Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Thanks, Smitty. I really don't think I would purposely use it for glucose modulation, but it wouldn't hurt. I'll check back and read some of those links. What would be the potential dosing for just health benefits? Would I still dose it pre-workout?
    You won't be able to ignore the effects on serum glucose levels, but the dosages aren't to the point where it's going to be powerful enough to induce hypoglycemia, which is nice... but, for health benefits, you'd want 2 capsules/day. Pre-WO would be one of those times to take advantage of certain formulaic properties. One capsule, 15-20 minutes before a meal/snack/shake with about 25-35g of carbohydrates would be perfect.

    Timing of the second dose will generally depend on diet and how we do with the pre-bed testing, which the reps will be doing when they receive their bottles.
    HYBRID Performance Nutrition
    Mike ~ R/D
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