Dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    And if this god exists, and is what anybody claims he is, then he will understand why I also withhold my belief until it is explained sufficiently.

    To me, it all comes down to justice...universally.
    OK, then blame me, I have failed you D. I know Him well so I should be able to explain it much better that I have. But unless you have prayed and asked Him to explain Himself to you, don't hold it against Him. He won't force Himself on you, if He did He would be just as guilty as the men we're talking about. But if you ask Him about it, He is ready to answer and explain it to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    OK, then blame me, I have failed you D. I know Him well so I should be able to explain it much better that I have. But unless you have prayed and asked Him to explain Himself to you, don't hold it against Him. He won't force Himself on you, if He did He would be just as guilty as the men we're talking about. But if you ask Him about it, He is ready to answer and explain it to you.
    Been there, done that. I have been through many hard experiences, and begged/prayed many times for anwswers...with nothing but silence in reply.

    In the end, it was my own strength and determination to create what, in my own mind, was my own purpose in accordance with rational morality, did I begin to succeed.

    Now, to anticipate the answer of "well, that WAS god answering you", I invoke Occam's razor again and say that there is no reason to add a god into the equation.

    My answer, in the end, is "not enough information to decide", and since I do not have enough evidence to believe in a god (theism) I have no other way to describe myself than "atheist".

    As a scientist, if objective evidence were to be offered then I would adapt and modify my belief system. Until then, there is no reason to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Been there, done that. I have been through many hard experiences, and begged/prayed many times for anwswers...with nothing but silence in reply.

    In the end, it was my own strength and determination to create what, in my own mind, was my own purpose in accordance with rational morality, did I begin to succeed.

    Now, to anticipate the answer of "well, that WAS god answering you", I invoke Occam's razor again and say that there is no reason to add a god into the equation.

    My answer, in the end, is "not enough information to decide", and since I do not have enough evidence to believe in a god (theism) I have no other way to describe myself than "atheist".

    As a scientist, if objective evidence were to be offered then I would adapt and modify my belief system. Until then, there is no reason to.
    OK, I understand your situation D. If you have prayed and received no answer, I don't know what else to tell you. God says seek and keep seeking. Maybe you did, maybe you were persistent in prayer and still didn't receive an answer. Or, maybe you got an answer that you just didn't like. Mankind is a crop. I know the Bible says that the weeds (bad stuff) grow along side the crop itself, and there is only separation at the time of the harvest. The weeds get watered too of course and He can't pull them up because it would disrupt the root system of the crop itself and lower the ultimate yield. One day there will be a harvest though and all pain and suffering will be over.
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    I would like to mention that these two last posts seem to be the most relative to the whole "debate" of the "God" issue.

    Two comments;

    Matt, you have a very sound and logical basis for your conclusion. You and I have gone through these matches before...gloves off at times. Your case is still very sound and I have tremendous respect for you and your ability to make your 'counter argument'. The evdience is just not there. It's a fact. If I looked at the "tangiable" evidence I would be sitting right next to you in your argument.

    The evidence that I have is in my heart. I can't put it in yours. Even if I could it ain't my job. Maybe one day you will have it or maybe you won't. Still, I respect the soundness of your argument.

    Dr. D: What are you gonna do? I can use my knees and elbows in the prone position to pray that they find the evdience that we found. It is not yours to give. There is really only one who can place the evdidence in the heart of a man.

    I like the way these last two posts have pretty clearly exposed the gist of the matter of belief or disbelief. Both of your guys are right. I respect both of you tremendously. Peace.
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    I'd just like to ask one question of the believers:

    is there any evidence that would convince you that there is no God?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    I'd just like to ask one question of the believers:

    is there any evidence that would convince you that there is no God?
    Actually, I was thinking about it when you asked earlier and honestly I couldn't come up with anything...
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    Ive been on both sides of the fence and what could convince me that there was no God:NOTHING


    Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths . Proverbs 3:5-6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmowry View Post
    Ive been on both sides of the fence and what could convince me that there was no God:NOTHING
    "Actually, I was thinking about it when you asked earlier and honestly I couldn't come up with anything..."

    Basically this tells me that you guys aren't rational, and thus there is no point in debating anything with you.
    If you gave me evidence (real evidence!) that there was a God, I would believe...you guys on the otherhand wouldn't be convinced by anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    "Actually, I was thinking about it when you asked earlier and honestly I couldn't come up with anything..."

    Basically this tells me that you guys aren't rational, and thus there is no point in debating anything with you.
    If you gave me evidence (real evidence!) that there was a God, I would believe...you guys on the otherhand wouldn't be convinced by anything.
    That is the conclusion on both sides.You are here in this thread to state a belief system as am I and calling us irrational is unnecessary.

    Again I respect everyones faith system(even though they differ) just for the sheer fact that you stand up for it.There are far too many nowadays who wont take a stand for anything.


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    Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    If you gave me evidence (real evidence!) that there was a God, I would believe...you guys on the otherhand wouldn't be convinced by anything.
    No it's only fair, because no matter what kind of proof we give you, you will always try come up with an excuse or some kind of explanation that it's not possible or true. Only if you experience it for yourself and only for yourself, you'll be able to believe...

    When you ask for evidence, what kind of evidence are you looking for?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI View Post
    No it's only fair, because no matter what kind of proof we give you, you will always try come up with an excuse or some kind of explanation that it's not possible or true. Only if you experience it for yourself and only for yourself, you'll be able to believe...

    When you ask for evidence, what kind of evidence are you looking for?
    something I can see...If some REAL miracle happened, I would probably believe.
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    Isaac Newton, had invited a scientist-friend of his, a man who professed atheism to dine with him. Seeking to corner his friend with his own arguments, Newton placed a model of the solar system on his table and invited his friend to view it.Upon examining it, Newton
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmowry View Post
    That is the conclusion on both sides.You are here in this thread to state a belief system as am I and calling us irrational is unnecessary.

    Again I respect everyones faith system(even though they differ) just for the sheer fact that you stand up for it.There are far too many nowadays who wont take a stand for anything.
    I don't have a belief system, it's a lack of belief.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    something I can see...If some REAL miracle happened, I would probably believe.
    Can you be more specific? And don't tell me if amputee grows a leg back and if it doesn't happen it means God don't exist.
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    then newton s friend was amazes by th emodel and he said what a wonderful model craftmanship, who fashioned this exquise model?
    newton said this model has no maker , it materilized from nuthin
    then he said what u mean and newton replied with a smile how can u my friend insist that this mode has to have a maker while u deny the existense of almighty god who created the whol solar system!
    Moral: If a model of the solar system must have a creator then what about the gigantic solar system itself? Let us worship that Creator who has created you and me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naseem View Post
    Moral: If a model of the solar system must have a creator then what about the gigantic solar system itself? Let us worship that Creator who has created you and me
    Tired argument # 75's challenge:

    If something as complex as the universe must have a creator, then whatever created it must be even more complex....which means IT would in turn require a creator...ad infinitum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI View Post
    Can you be more specific? And don't tell me if amputee grows a leg back and if it doesn't happen it means God don't exist.
    how about someone dying (and it being verified) and then coming back to life?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Tired argument # 75's challenge:

    If something as complex as the universe must have a creator, then whatever created it must be even more complex....which means IT would in turn require a creator...ad infinitum.
    yes dsade sumthin more complex its called god tehr is nuthin like him to compare with it on the whole uvivers he is jsut unique!
    and to u r question sumthin created god !u mean so who created god?
    THE ANSWER to u r question iif sumthing got created it means it has a begining date of creation but almighty god has no begening and no end? HE IS JUST THE ETERNITY
    thats whole secret of faith ! to believe like u see him we dont c god but we c the prove through what he created !
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    Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    how about someone dying (and it being verified) and then coming back to life?
    I was watching some show about ER few months ago and many of those guys believe in some kind of supernatural force even if they technically don't believe in God. Because they've seen tons of unexplained things, when people who had no chance of surviving lived...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naseem View Post
    thats whole secret of faith ! to believe like u see him we dont c god but we c the prove through what he created !
    You mean like the AIDS virus, Bloodworms, Hookworms, Bubonic Plague? You mean like Polio? You mean like Multiple Sclerosis?
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    "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty"
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    You mean like the AIDS virus, Bloodworms, Hookworms, Bubonic Plague? You mean like Polio? You mean like Multiple Sclerosis?
    THE AIDS" its sensitive question it should get a thread on its own cuz many" anyway viruses and ilness in general!
    1st when god let sumthin bad happen it doesnt mean that he likes it, god test ppl through many stuff deaseses even through gettin rich !...ect but know sumthin always tehre is a solution virus and the anti virus
    did u ever heard that ppl recovred from AIDS?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naseem View Post
    THE AIDS" its sensitive question it should get a thread on its own cuz many" anyway viruses and ilness in general!
    1st when god let sumthin bad happen it doesnt mean that he likes it, god test ppl through many stuff deaseses even through gettin rich !...ect but know sumthin always tehre is a solution virus and the anti virus
    did u ever heard that ppl recovred from AIDS?
    Did you ever hear of babies being born with AIDS? Again, innocents being punished.
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    Something that I find challenging as a Christian myself is when others Christians (God believers) start speaking for God. Please guys. Your opinion is your opinion.

    Intelligent people like those in hear will blow you out of the water every time. You have a faith. This does not make your speculation truth of what God has planned or in store. We know not the mind of God and should not be claiming to.

    I have been a Christian for 20 yrs this coming Nov. There are answers to things that I will never have the answer too. There are things that don't add up. Speculating or embracing a doctrine that meets my speculations does not then make it true or fact. Stand on the Word to defend your faith. Do not make up your own word.

    As is detailed in scripture (believe it devine or not) when Jesus was confronted by Satan in the desert after fasting for 40 days and nights he countered Satan with the Word. Nothing else. Satan flead. If it was good enough for Him it is good enough for you. He did not express His opinion or speculate on a concept. He spoke the Word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Did you ever hear of babies being born with AIDS? Again, innocents being punished.
    hey deside seriously dont get me wrong ! but when u say that its same way that stanic luciferians talk tehy ll tell what u r god did...ect nuthin! so come worship lucifer since men way is evil..ect crap like that!

    when sum one born with AIDS it dsnet mean he is being punished but tested and test his parent through that when god test u he hounor u! and ll be rewarded for taht !

    also remeber sumthin if u dont worship god u ll worship sumthin else like sume take the money as god otehr take sex...ect !
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    Something that I find challenging as a Christian myself is when others Christians (God believers) start speaking for God. Please guys. Your opinion is your opinion.

    Intelligent people like those in hear will blow you out of the water every time. You have a faith. This does not make your speculation truth of what God has planned or in store. We know not the mind of God and should not be claiming to.

    I have been a Christian for 20 yrs this coming Nov. There are answers to things that I will never have the answer too. There are things that don't add up. Speculating or embracing a doctrine that meets my speculations does not then make it true or fact. Stand on the Word to defend your faith. Do not make up your own word.

    As is detailed in scripture (believe it devine or not) when Jesus was confronted by Satan in the desert after fasting for 40 days and nights he countered Satan with the Word. Nothing else. Satan flead. If it was good enough for Him it is good enough for you. He did not express His opinion or speculate on a concept. He spoke the Word.
    DO NOT MAKE U R OWN WORD! what u said here is extremly important ! cuz if u make u r own word u ll get far from the truth and juss get lost and traped by the EVIL!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI View Post
    I just started thinking, if someone here reading right now have AIDS, Brian I work with just said, he might be able to help to get rid of it. He's never helped anyone with AIDS before, but feels pretty confident it can be done. If someone has it or know someone and wants help, send me an e-mail. DmitryBLR@yahoo.com
    And I will keep this confident, if you'd like.
    Now you are going too far. Please go away, and take your insanity with you.

    And a respectful word to all those that DO believe...if you find this person ridiculous...WHY? What he is saying is absolutely consistent with what SHOULD be possible with faith...but would you go so far as to recommend someone with AIDS skip medical treatment and go to a faith healer? Ask and it shall be given, right?

    Would not seeking medical treatment show a LACK of faith?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Now you are going too far. Please go away, and take your insanity with you.

    And a respectful word to all those that DO believe...if you find this person ridiculous...WHY? What he is saying is absolutely consistent with what SHOULD be possible with faith...but would you go so far as to recommend someone with AIDS skip medical treatment and go to a faith healer? Ask and it shall be given, right?

    Would not seeking medical treatment show a LACK of faith?
    I never said you should not seek medical treatment. Alternative healing combined with modern medicine can be really powerfull thing. You don't know anything about it so don't attack me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bludevil View Post
    I would have no issues at all with my kids going to this museum. I also think creationism should be taught in school along side of evolution. Evolution is only a scientific theory, so the theory that is depicted in the Bible should be taught as well. It's funny how the scientific are so liberal in their thinking and ways, but when it comes to the Bible their so close-minded.
    Okay; this is a misconception.

    Proof, as in 100% proof, is pretty much impossible in many areas. So, when scientists refer to the "theory" of evolution, they mean the theory that in all likelihood is correct.

    The theory of evolution is about as close to "proven" as anything can possibly get.

    What is ridiculous is that people see evolution all of the time, yet deny it. Look at insects and resistance to pesticides or pathogens and resistance to medicine. We treat insects and pathogens, and they evolve through a process of natural selection. Evolution occurs over long periods of time, so major evolution takes a VERY long time.

    Just read.
    What is the evidence for evolution?
    talk.origins newsgroup

    I'm sorry, but as far as the biblical account of creationism goes, unless you're looking at it symbolically it really has no merit to it whatsoever.

    God may be our creator, but he didn't do it how the bible says he did it.

    This "museum" is absolutely ridiculous.

    "Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved." <-- The nonsense addressed far better than I could ever address it.

    First, we should clarify what "evolution" means. Like so many other words, it has more than one meaning. Its strict biological definition is "a change in allele frequencies over time." By that definition, evolution is an indisputable fact. Most people seem to associate the word "evolution" mainly with common descent, the theory that all life arose from one common ancestor. Many people believe that there is enough evidence to call this a fact, too. However, common descent is still not the theory of evolution, but just a fraction of it (and a part of several quite different theories as well). The theory of evolution not only says that life evolved, it also includes mechanisms, like mutations, natural selection, and genetic drift, which go a long way towards explaining how life evolved.

    Calling the theory of evolution "only a theory" is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. The argument rests on a confusion between what "theory" means in informal usage and in a scientific context. A theory, in the scientific sense, is "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory mainly because of the last point; it makes few or no specific claims about what we would expect to find, so it can't be used for anything. When it does make falsifiable predictions, they prove to be false.)

    Lack of proof isn't a weakness, either. On the contrary, claiming infallibility for one's conclusions is a sign of hubris. Nothing in the real world has ever been rigorously proved, or ever will be. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you're operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence. The more and better evidence we have for something, the more certainty we assign to it; when there is enough evidence, we label the something a fact, even though it still isn't 100% certain.

    What evolution has is what any good scientific claim has--evidence, and lots of it. Evolution is supported by a wide range of observations throughout the fields of genetics, anatomy, ecology, animal behavior, paleontology, and others. If you wish to challenge the theory of evolution, you must address that evidence. You must show that the evidence is either wrong or irrelevant or that it fits another theory better. Of course, to do this, you must know both the theory and the evidence.

    Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution
    Last edited by kwyckemynd00; 06-07-2007 at 03:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI View Post
    I just started thinking, if someone here reading right now have AIDS, Brian I work with just said, he might be able to help to get rid of it. He's never helped anyone with AIDS before, but feels pretty confident it can be done. If someone has it or know someone and wants help, send me an e-mail. DmitryBLR@yahoo.com
    And I will keep this confident, if you'd like.
    In the history of AIDS there has been ONE SINGLE CASE of a complete destruction of the virus by the body. Just one, and it was a genetic component that did it. Not medicine, not faith, no herbal remedy, etc. It was an inherent resistance. He was an unmarried homosexual man, too, so based off biblical passages I don't think he was on God's good side.

    Dmitry, dude....before you start claiming that you believe your buddy can cure AIDS, I'd highly recommend he actually try it. This sounds more ludicrous that almost anything I've ever heard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI View Post
    I was watching some show about ER few months ago and many of those guys believe in some kind of supernatural force even if they technically don't believe in God. Because they've seen tons of unexplained things, when people who had no chance of surviving lived...
    Many scientists are not "athiests", but agnostic.

    Knowing what we know, its very hard to take the bible literally. Also knowing what we know, we have no idea what could be responsible for everything and we know God cannot be disproven.

    There may be a God, and I personally have faith there is some sort of supernatural power out there that one could liken to God, but I sure as hell don't believe in the biblical version of him for a multitude of reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Been there, done that. I have been through many hard experiences, and begged/prayed many times for anwswers...with nothing but silence in reply.
    Note - From my reading and studying of the King James Bible, this is MY opinion on DSADE's situation.

    God is not going to answer any prayers for non-believers. Before God can even hear your prayers, you have to be a believer. Once you accept Christ in your life, then you will see prayers being answered.
  33. I know nothing...
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    That's funny how many people here keep talking how many things are wrong in the world and how unfair God is to them, but when God offers His help, you refuse to take it. I'm not talking about this situation here, but in general... I bet if God would show up on Earth again people would kill Him just like 2000 years ago. Nothing really changed since then, if you think about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00 View Post
    Okay; this is a misconception.

    Proof, as in 100% proof, is pretty much impossible in many areas. So, when scientists refer to the "theory" of evolution, they mean the theory that in all likelihood is correct.

    The theory of evolution is about as close to "proven" as anything can possibly get.

    What is ridiculous is that people see evolution all of the time, yet deny it. Look at insects and resistance to pesticides or pathogens and resistance to medicine. We treat insects and pathogens, and they evolve through a process of natural selection. Evolution occurs over long periods of time, so major evolution takes a VERY long time.

    Just read.
    What is the evidence for evolution?
    talk.origins newsgroup

    I'm sorry, but as far as the biblical account of creationism goes, unless you're looking at it symbolically it really has no merit to it whatsoever.

    God may be our creator, but he didn't do it how the bible says he did it.

    This "museum" is absolutely ridiculous.

    "Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved." <-- The nonsense addressed far better than I could ever address it.

    First, we should clarify what "evolution" means. Like so many other words, it has more than one meaning. Its strict biological definition is "a change in allele frequencies over time." By that definition, evolution is an indisputable fact. Most people seem to associate the word "evolution" mainly with common descent, the theory that all life arose from one common ancestor. Many people believe that there is enough evidence to call this a fact, too. However, common descent is still not the theory of evolution, but just a fraction of it (and a part of several quite different theories as well). The theory of evolution not only says that life evolved, it also includes mechanisms, like mutations, natural selection, and genetic drift, which go a long way towards explaining how life evolved.

    Calling the theory of evolution "only a theory" is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. The argument rests on a confusion between what "theory" means in informal usage and in a scientific context. A theory, in the scientific sense, is "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory mainly because of the last point; it makes few or no specific claims about what we would expect to find, so it can't be used for anything. When it does make falsifiable predictions, they prove to be false.)

    Lack of proof isn't a weakness, either. On the contrary, claiming infallibility for one's conclusions is a sign of hubris. Nothing in the real world has ever been rigorously proved, or ever will be. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you're operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence. The more and better evidence we have for something, the more certainty we assign to it; when there is enough evidence, we label the something a fact, even though it still isn't 100% certain.

    What evolution has is what any good scientific claim has--evidence, and lots of it. Evolution is supported by a wide range of observations throughout the fields of genetics, anatomy, ecology, animal behavior, paleontology, and others. If you wish to challenge the theory of evolution, you must address that evidence. You must show that the evidence is either wrong or irrelevant or that it fits another theory better. Of course, to do this, you must know both the theory and the evidence.

    Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution
    There's no point in debating this with true believers...
    (I have tried)
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    I thought Jesus (the son of god) was the one killed 2000 yrs ago?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRUNCH View Post
    I thought Jesus (the son of god) was the one killed 2000 yrs ago?
    Yes, and after 3 days, he arose from the grave. It is from this resurrection that we believe in life after death.
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    'Irreducible Complexity' is Reducible Afterall

    Wednesday, June 06, 2007 7:49 AM By Sharon Begley

    Now that evolution has become an issue in the presidential campaign (in the May 3 debate among Republican presidential hopefuls, when moderator Chris Matthews asked if any candidates did not “believe in” evolution, three hands—Tom Tancredo’s, Sam Brownback’s and Mike Huckabee’s—shot up), it is always amusing when biologists put another brick in the solid wall that is evolution. The latest comes from a study in which researchers discovered clues to the evolutionary origins of the nervous system.

    For anyone who just arrived from Neptune, the “nuanced” stance against evolution—that is, the one that doesn’t make you look like a complete Neanderthal—is to note that of course you know that microevolution occurs, with bacteria evolving resistance to antibiotics and mosquitoes to pesticides, for instance. It’s macroevolution—in which one species evolves into another—that gives you pause since, after all, who has seen such a thing?

    The intelligent design camp also argues that some biological structures are just too darn sophisticated to have evolved through random mutation and natural selection. They must therefore have been designed by an intelligent agent. In particular, since complex structures have lots of components, how could the components have been just hanging around for eons waiting for the final component to emerge? Think of it this way: if you don’t already have all the other components of a mousetrap, why would you keep a spring around? A spring is only useful if you also have the base, the bar and the rest. This is the argument called “irreducible complexity,” and it has proved very persuasive to the public.

    It’s always dangerous to base your argument on some version of “scientists have never found X” (with X in this case being components of a complex structure existing and serving a function before the rest of the components showed up). That’s because those darn scientists keep making discoveries. If you want to say they “have never found . . . ,” you’d better understand that what you really mean is “they haven’t found it yet.”

    Which brings us to the latest discovery in evolution: DNA needed to make synapses, the sophisticated junctions between neurons, in none other than the lowly sea sponge. Considered among the most primitive and ancient of all animals, sea sponges have no nervous system (or internal organs of any kind, for that matter), notes Todd Oakley, assistant professor in the Department of Ecology, Evolution and Marine Biology at the University of California, Santa Barbara. But, he adds, they “have most of the genetic components of synapses.”

    The first neurons and synapses appeared something like 600 million years ago, in a group of animals called cnidarians which, today, include hydra, sea anemones and jellyfish. Sea sponges are even older. “We look at the evolutionary period between sponges and cnidarians as the period when the nervous system came into existence, about 600 million years ago,” says Ken Kosik, co-director of UCSB’s Neuroscience Research Institute.

    He, Oakley and the rest of the team listed all the genes known to be operative in synapses in the human nervous system. They then examined the sponge genome. “That was when the surprise hit,” said Kosik. “We found a lot of genes to make a nervous system present in the sponge.”

    What were genes for synapses doing in a sponge, which has no neurons and therefore no synapses? This is where the irreducible-complexity crowd makes a fatal error: they assume that whatever the function of a biological component (gene, protein, biochemical pathway . . . ) today must have been its function in the past. Maybe you noticed that my mouse trap example above wasn’t very persuasive; even without a base and a bar, a spring can be a useful little device. So it goes with biological systems. For instance, of the 42 proteins known to make up the bacterial flagellum, 40 have been found to serve as ion channels or something else in bacteria. It is therefore perfectly plausible that they really were hanging around—serving some function that would have allowed evolution and natural selection to keep them around generation after generation—until they all got together and formed a flagellum.

    So it seems to be with the genes for synapses. The sea sponge did not use them for their current purpose, but that doesn’t mean the genes had no use. “We found this mysterious unknown structure in the sponge, and it is clear that evolution was able to take this entire structure and, with small modifications, direct its use toward a new function,” said Kosik. “Evolution can take these ‘off the shelf’ components and put them together in new and interesting ways.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI View Post
    I've never claimed he will do it, but he said he could try. I didn't believe when he said he can help with cancer, but he successfully help several people and no I believe it's possible. I won't believe it till I see it for myself either, but just because it never happened before doesn't mean it's not possible. I mentioned it in several posts, it's not Brian who does it, but God works through him. If you believe in God, then you should know there's nothing impossible for Him.
    I know you didn't say he "will". But, you have faith in him and he believe he "can" do it (even though he's never done it before). Its still ridiculous.

    And, I believe anything is possible. Some things are just highly improbable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    There's no point in debating this with true believers...
    (I have tried)
    I wasn't trying to convince; only to frustrate
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    What if "god"/the creator is just beyond our realm of understanding. What if God created this world and then evolution took place. What if god doesn't answer prayers because you only pray when you need something. What if the bible was written to help keep the faith in God but was not 100% completely true (it was written by man remember, not to mention back in a time when wine was a very popular drink). What if you sat back and thought, most religions have many common grounds, perhaps they all just believe in "a creator" and some take it to far. What if God created a virus that evolved just like everything else (AIDS). What if prayers won't cure diseases, but just possibly someone out theres brain has evolved enough to come up with a cure(the brain we were given after god started this whole mess).
    What if Evolutionist and Creationist both had their good points...
  

  
 

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