Best Overall Chest Development Excercise
- 11-29-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by judge-mental
I love compound movements, but I also like isolation to pre-exhaust or for a general change of pace. And since all other pec movements heavily recruit anterior delts (at least) and most recruit some medial delt and/or tris, the supinated flys serve a purpose.
I appreciate your input.
- 11-29-2004, 04:14 PM
11-29-2004, 06:09 PM
Well, you're right about no delts, but pull overs recruit some triceps, and some lats. And the decline fly - yeah, that's more iso than most. I don't have a decline at home, but you're right about the movement itself. Probably a small amount of anterior delt, but less than a flat fly, bench press, or any other arm adduction.Originally Posted by vafla
11-30-2004, 04:22 AM
pullover = no tricpes (pronated grip)Originally Posted by ZackMurphy
decline fly= absolutley no delts, unless youre skeleton and muscualature is not human.
nice thing about pullover is it aslo brings up you intercostals, pretty muscle IMO
12-07-2004, 07:00 PM
Sorry for the delay - haven't been online much. I was going to come back to this faster but got sidetracked.Originally Posted by judge-mental
I don't know much about the bursa and the fluid sac there - is that what you're suggesting would take a beating from this movement? Why? Except for the supination, it's not different from any pec fly.
The way I'm doing this move, I start fully abducted, supinated grip, and I keep the grip supinated. No elbow bend. So there's no real internal rotation. At least not the way I'm picturing it.
And I agree you'd start with a shorter pectoralis major if you began the movement internally rotated, but you're not - your arms are out like a regular fly, just supinated. If anything, the supination should lengthen the pectoral slightly.
You know? Enlighten me. Thanks.
12-08-2004, 06:05 AM
just like a regular fly just supinated? youre arms are spinated in a regular fly.
man i thought you meant pronated earlier cause that would get the front delts out and that was your purpose.
suppinated is palms up --> regular flys
12-08-2004, 11:48 AM
Just like a regular fly, but with the palms fully supinated.Originally Posted by judge-mental
Regular flyes, 99/100 guys have their palms facing inward, toward each other. Usually slightly supinated at the start, then not supinated at all. Most guys. You may do them differently, but you'd be the exception to the rule.
This variation is most easily done with a cable crossover machine, laying on a bench on the middle with the pulleys at bench height. You can use any handles that are comfortable, and lead with your elbows. Most flyes you'd do the "hug the tree motion". Not these. These, you finish the motion with your lower arms parallel to each other. This removes the medial delt almost completely, and puts the anterior delt in a position where it really can't help much. Consequently, you don't need to use much weight.
You cannot do these with DBs. You MUST keep the palms fully supinated the whole time. It's essential. But the movement hits the pecs in a way unlike anything most guys have ever felt. You can do them VERY light - 10-20# max, and you'll feel your chest in a whole new light.
But having the palms pronated would still allow anterior and medial delt recruitment. You'd still get pecs, of course, too.
Anyway, I'm always interested in potential chronic issues, but I didn't really see a problem with this one.
These were not my idea. A trainer in Utah I know advocates a number of interesting movements to isolate previously un-isolatable groups (lats, pecs), and damned if they don't work. Not that we should ONLY be isolating - just a movement to augment a chest routine. Try it - if you do it right, you'll be amazed.
12-08-2004, 12:40 PM
ok lets get this straight
suppination happens in the elbow
external rotation happens in the shoulder
so suppiantion in terms of flys is meaningless if you want to be exact
the question is if your shoulder is externaly rotated (you can answer by "palms facing X")
12-08-2004, 04:52 PM
Yes, supination happens at the elbows, but it's evidenced by the postion of the palms, so I reference the palms. But supination, when full, DOES impact the upper arm slightly. At least, it slightly turns my upper arm along with my lower arm. Yours, too, I would imagine.Originally Posted by judge-mental
In terms of the adduction of the arm, the supination has little overall impact, but it changes the physiology of the ability of the deltoids to contribute to the motion, since they're now at a mechanical disadvantage. Much like when the biceps brachii takes a back seat during hammer curls (with the palm mostly or totally pronated). It just can't help as much as with the pronation as it can with the palms supinated. Same thing here, but it pulls the deltoids out of the mix.
Anyway, my point is simply that with the supination, you decrease the ability of the delts to help. And THAT, in turn, amps up the pec impact.
Know what I mean?
Truly not trying to be argumentative - I love this stuff, and I'm thinking out loud as much as I am typing it out.
12-08-2004, 06:05 PM
so are you palms facing each other? facing your head? your legs?...
still didnt get it.
external or internal rotation...
12-08-2004, 07:08 PM
In the normal pec fly position, but supinated, so palms facing my "up", my head.Originally Posted by judge-mental
And the flexion isn't a rotation - it's just adduction. Just like a traditional pec fly.
12-09-2004, 06:42 AM
damn you'd flunk any biomecanics course. your shoulder is maximaly externaly rotated
anyway I got you. you dont get the deltoid out, you just make it work harder.
I don't want to continue beating this to death. if your going straight sidewais I see no injury in the horizon but imbalance looming
just do a regular fly
12-09-2004, 10:09 AM
WTF.Originally Posted by judge-mental
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying about the rotation - of course you start the motion in an externally rotated position, but you don't internally rotate it at all during the flexion/extension. That's why I'm saying there's no rotation. But I appreciate your taking the time to throw out the insult anyway.
Whatever, man. Sorry to have bothered you.
12-09-2004, 10:53 AM
that was in a freindly manner, because I didnt seem to get to you. take it easy.
lets go over anatomy:
horizontal adductors (agonists in flys) - anterior delt, pec
external rotation in shoulder - both relatively being( as they are internal rotators) stretched and in a dissadvantage. thus both work harder.
suppination and external rotation go hand in hand but do not equal each other.
12-14-2004, 01:38 AM
I like doing dumbells on a swiss ball You need to really work hard to stabilize those bitches, and it hits your chest REALLY hard.
01-14-2005, 04:04 PM
i hear ya bro,if not carefull the 1st time you do these you will end up with a dumbbell in your face.excellent for stablizer work.
02-05-2005, 11:44 AM
meh, i benched for yrs, and never really got a huge chest. I did gain a lot of strength though.
But, when i started doing bench cable cross overs, and flat dumbell press/inclined dumbell presses, my chest just started kinda growing over a period...really impressive.
I'd rather those than barbell benches any day of the week...
---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---
02-25-2005, 12:12 AM
MaNiaK flyes....about to hit the hay so I might come on here tomorrow to explain but I explain in detail in my pic section and on NP.com in the exercise forum!
03-11-2005, 10:50 PM
03-14-2005, 08:21 PM
i like doing them towards the end. incline > flat/decline > dips > flysOriginally Posted by nolinenowait
03-21-2005, 11:39 AM
I really like Weighted Dips, leaning forward to isolate more on the chest. It also will help you get your max up on the bench press. Just my 2c
03-21-2005, 06:40 PM
04-03-2005, 11:24 PM
Ha boy this is an old thread. Kinda funny the first two posters are both banned from anabolicminds LOL
04-05-2005, 12:19 AM
04-05-2005, 12:27 AM
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