precontest prep... first comp...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdg76 View Post
    Losing a small amount of muscle while cutting is inevitable. Wether you cut carbs or not.
    Where do you get there is sugar in whey? Studies have been shown that whey DOES in fact cause an insulin response. Again I do not agree that you can lose only BF and keep your carbs high. You said that the more carbs you eat the more carbs it burns an to keep fats as low as possible. That is just opposite of what I have done and seen many do. If I were to up my carbs, strictly eating sweet potatos, brown rice, and oats and were to lower my fats. What would happen is my test levels would lower i.e. low fat intake, and I would start putting on BF from too many carbs. Good fats do not make you fat, simple carbs and/or to many 'good' do.
    And where is your info on a few things...

    1) That whey, a protein, causes insulin release? (The sugars from lactose and added sweeteners in the whey mix will cause the insulin response, not protein. Where are the studies?

    2) That low fats cause low test levels...? And if there is a connection here, is it a low enough drop to merit NOT eating a low-fat diet? And also, for those on PH's and steroids, this point is very, very moot.

    3) That (within reason) a healthy amount of slow releasing carbs will cause fat gain, rather than speeding up the metabolism? Reference please.

    I'm tired of bro science/pseudo science. It doesn't work. Cutting calories below maintenance levels cause muscle loss in equal amounts to fat loss, which in turn slows down the metabolism. So as you lose mass, to keep seeing weight loss you must continue to cut more and more calories. And as you cut calories, the more muscle you lose..and so it goes. Skinny and weak.

    Now we could look at how Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman and others do it. Which is eat more carbs (and I mean Clean carbs), high proteins, extremely high fiber content and low fats). They start packing on muscle, which in turn demands more calories. And as they eat more calories they continue to pack on muscle which continues to ramp up the metabolism. It's the exact opposite of the approach that people on these boards do. Such approach is why most aren't going to be pro bodybuilders at any level - not because of steroids and GH use. They already use those on these boards.

    Here is some reference on my behalf:

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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion

    Now we could look at how Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman and others do it. Which is eat more carbs (and I mean Clean carbs), high proteins, extremely high fiber content and low fats). They start packing on muscle, which in turn demands more calories. And as they eat more calories they continue to pack on muscle which continues to ramp up the metabolism. It's the exact opposite of the approach that people on these boards do. Such approach is why most aren't going to be pro bodybuilders at any level - not because of steroids and GH use. They already use those on these boards.
    Using IFBB pros as examples (and great ones at that) is a terrible example in my opinion. Not saying you're wrong, just saying bad examples....

    I am really enjoying this debate however.......
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    me too... but im not willing to try and increase my carb intake right now lol
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    It's a long read but you'll get the point.

    1.By Jerry Brainum

    Milk protein consists of two primary proteins: casein and whey, with casein accounting for 80 percent and whey 20 percent. In recent years studies have shown that both proteins have varying uptake rates in the body. Whey digests rapidly, reaches peak blood uptake in about 90 minutes,and then rapidly declines. In contrast, casein curdles In the stomach,leading to an extended release of amino acids lasting for up to seven hours.

    Based on those findings, scientists have suggested that whey protein is superior to casein for purposes of stimulating muscle protein synthesis. The reason is that the high essential amino-acid content of whey, including branched-chain amino acids, spurs muscle protein synthesis with one particular BCAA, leucine, perhaps the most important player of all in relation to muscle protein synthesis. Scientists also suggest that casein, because of its relatively slow release of essential amino acids, is better than whey for generating an extended anticatabolic effect. Since muscle growth is based on a balance between increased protein synthesis and rejoiced catabolism, it would appear that whey and casein provide the perfect synergistic combination for helping build muscle when combined with weight training.

    One problem with studies that originally revealed the properties of casein and whey was that they measured whole-body protein synthesis, which differs from muscle protein synthesis specifically. Would the findings about casein and whey be confirmed if the focus was only on muscle protein synthesis? That was the major focus of a new study.1 Seventeen healthy young men, average age 28, were randomly chosen to participate in either of two protein trials or in a control group that didn't take any supplemental protein. Immediately after a weight workout, the men in the protein groups drank a whey or casein drink at a dose of gram per kilogram of body mass. The controls got a calorie-free drink. To measure amino behavior and rate of muscle protein synthesis, researchers tagged leucine and the proteins with radioactive tracers.

    The primary finding was that both whey and casein stimulated about the same level of muscle protein synthesis over a one-to six-hour period. Whey, however, did it more rapidly, a result that confirmed previous studies. Casein showed a more moderate but prolonged increase in muscle protein synthesis. Measures of downstream muscle-protein-synthesis signals revealed similar responses to the two proteins, except for one factor that responded more strongly to whey.

    The type of experimental casein used made a difference. This study used calcium caseinate; another form, micellar casein, produces a more prolonged release of amino acids. One reason is that the micellar form retains certain peptides, which are short chains of amino acids, that help partition the release of amino acids over an extended
    time.

    'Taken together," the authors note, "it could be argued that the combination of whey and casein would be an optimal choice post exercise, as whey stimulates the protein synthesis machinery with its high digestibility and consequently high peak concentrations of insulin and amino acids, including a high proportion of leucine in its composition. Casein provides amino acids for a prolonged time, fulfilling the amino acid need for the increased protein synthesis machinery." They also confirm that whereas whey is the protein of choice immediately after a workout, the ideal supplement would contain a 50/50 blend of casein and whey.

    While leucine is considered a key amino acid in muscle protein synthesis, the authors note that adding leucine to a postworkout protein-and-carb combo doesn't extend the effects in subjects of any age. It does, however, appear to uptick whole-body protein synthesis, which, as noted above, doesn't directly translate to increased muscle protein synthesis. Additional leucine does increase muscle protein synthesis in older people-but only under resting, not post exercise conditions.

    All this suggests that you don't need supplemental leucine and probably not branched-chain amino acids if you use a supplement that contains both whey and casein, preferably micellar casein. Any excess leucine will simply be oxidized in the liver and not used to synthesize muscle protein. One interesting effect observed in the new study was that the cheaper form of casein, calcium caseinate, brings on an insulin release, while micellar casein does not. That's moot if you use a whey-and-casein combo because whey produces a pronounced insulin release. In the presence of a high blood count of amino acids, insulin leads to muscle protein synthesis, but otherwise it's more involved in keeping muscle from breaking down. The study reported here measured muscle protein synthesis only, not anticatabolic activity, but found that after about six hours muscle protein synthesis was similar for both whey and casein, with whey being better than casein in that respect.

    Speaking of leucine, a few more newly published studies have found some interesting effects related to it and other amino acids. One study compared plasma leucine in men and women following sprinting.2 In some respects sprinting is similar to high intensity weight training because both involve high-intensity activity followed by brief rests. Men produce more ammonia than women after either type of exercise. One reason is that ammonia is produced as waste product of the metabolism of adenosine triphosphate, the immediate energy source for muscle contraction, and men have more muscle and ATP than women. They also have more type 2 muscle fibers, making for larger muscles, and ammonia is produced mainly in type 2 muscle fibers.

    Women produce less ammonia than men during exercise for another reason. It turns out that after high-intensity exercise, excess ammonia is taken up in fat tissue, where it is buffered and converted into glutamine. Since women usually have more fat tissue than men, more ammonia buffering goes on in their bodies after exercise. Meanwhile, men experience twice the decrease of plasma leucine than women after exercise.

    The significance is that the drop in blood or plasma leucine directly correlates to blood ammonia, and because women produce less ammonia, their plasma leucine drops less after exercise. Estrogen comes into the picture as well; when men are given estrogen, they show decreased leucine oxidation after exercise. The higher leucine counts in women after sprinting has implications for muscle growth, since only women show increased mass after sprinting exercise alone. That's based on the higher leucine retention in women than men after that activity.

    References


    1 Reitelseder, S" et ai, (2011), Whey and casein labeled with L[1-13CJ leucine and muscle protein synthesis: Effect of resistance exercise and protein ingestion, Am J Physiol Endoerinol Metabol, 300(1 ):E231-42,
    2 Esbjornsson, M" et al. (2010), Reduction in plasma leucine after sprint exercise is greater in males than In females, Seand J Med Sei Sports, In press,
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    Low fat and test levels

    Section: malegrams Registered Trademarkhealthwatch
    Unfortunately, shedding fat may also mean a drop in your manliest hormone
    Lowering your fat intake is generally a good thing. It helps you lose the love handles, corral the cholesterol levels and win knowing glances from those women in Bally's commercials. But if you want to build more strength and muscle mass, you may want to keep just a little lard in your diet. Researchers have found that extremely low-fat diets can reduce muscle-friendly testosterone--almost to preadolescent levels! Penn State researchers monitored the diets and hormone levels of a group of resistance trainers for 17 days. "The subjects with the lowest fat intake had the lowest testosterone levels," says researcher Jeff Volek, M.S., R.D.
    How low is low? "You start seeing real changes when the fat intake drops to about 10 percent," he says. It's worse if you're overtraining, because you're already sapping your testosterone levels. Adopt a draconian no-fat diet and you compound the problem. This can ultimately hamper your immune system, endurance capacity and ability to build muscle. Eat healthfully, but try to keep your fat levels between 20 and 30 percent of your diet, says Volek.
    ~~~~~~~~
    EDITED BY RON GERACI AND DUANE SWIERCZYNSKI
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    I'll pull up a few more later. And as stated above neither YOU or I am even close to being in shape as Cutler, Coleman or any one else in that stage of bodybuilding. You can not use them as examples.
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    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;90(6):3550-9. Epub 2005 Mar 1.
    Low-fat high-fiber diet decreased serum and urine androgens in men.

    Wang C, Catlin DH, Starcevic B, Heber D, Ambler C, Berman N, Lucas G, Leung A, Schramm K, Lee PW, Hull L, Swerdloff RS.
    Source

    Department of Medicine and Pediatrics and the General Clinical Research Center, Harbor-University of California at Los Angeles Medical Center and Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute, Torrance, California 90509, USA. wang@labiomed.org

    Abstract

    To validate our hypothesis that reduction in dietary fat may result in changes in androgen metabolism, 39 middle-aged, white, healthy men (50-60 yr of age) were studied while they were consuming their usual high-fat, low-fiber diet and after 8 wk modulation to an isocaloric low-fat, high-fiber diet. Mean body weight decreased by 1 kg, whereas total caloric intake, energy expenditure, and activity index were not changed. After diet modulation, mean serum testosterone (T) concentration fell (P < 0.0001), accompanied by small but significant decreases in serum free T (P = 0.0045), 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (P = 0.0053), and adrenal androgens (androstendione, P = 0.0135; dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, P = 0.0011). Serum estradiol and SHBG showed smaller decreases. Parallel decreases in urinary excretion of some testicular and adrenal androgens were demonstrated. Metabolic clearance rates of T were not changed, and production rates for T showed a downward trend while on low-fat diet modulation. We conclude that reduction in dietary fat intake (and increase in fiber) results in 12% consistent lowering of circulating androgen levels without changing the clearance.
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    I dont even know where to start in this thread
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Regarding protein debate:

    I agree that whey protein causes muscle protein synthesis, but that isn't what insulin is or does. As it says in the simple explanation on wikipedia -

    Insulin
    is a hormone, produced by the pancreas, which is central to regulating carbohydrate and fat metabolism in the body. Insulin causes cells in the liver, muscle, and fat tissue to take up glucose from the blood, storing it as glycogen inside these tissues.

    Insulin stops the use of fat as an energy source by inhibiting the release of glucagon. With the exception of the metabolic disorder diabetes mellitus and metabolic syndrome, insulin is provided within the body in a constant proportion to remove excess glucose from the blood, which otherwise would be toxic. When blood glucose levels fall below a certain level, the body begins to use stored sugar as an energy source through glycogenolysis, which breaks down the glycogen stored in the liver and muscles into glucose, which can then be utilized as an energy source. (aka amino acids stored in the muscle cells) As a central metabolic control mechanism, its status is also used as a control signal to other body systems (such as amino acid uptake by body cells). In addition, it has several other anabolic effects throughout the body.

    There is not evidence that protein, all by itself, causes insulin release. It just doesn't. Glucose does.
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    I'm on my phone so this will be short. But you seriuosly are going to use a wikepedia reference?
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    Regarding the fat studies, I haven't decided if I want to consider the info or not. Pseudo science reigns in colleges these days because it would simply cost too much time and money to actually find the exact relationship between fats and testosterone.

    Since one of testosterone's main duties is to mobilize fat cells to be used for energy, I can believe that one's free test levels would decrease in a low-fat diet since the need for such is reduced. Granted, this might also be why pro bodybuilder's decided to make steroids a key ingredient to their diets, allowing them to stay away from fats yet still have their T-levels high. This would allow them to become very lean without losing strength, stamina and lean mass.

    But anyways, the point to my argument was not to just "lower fat intake", quite honestly 20% of daily intake would be fine, which is what everyone seems to shoot for anyways (40/40/20). But the point was to lower fat intake and simultaneously increase starchy and fibrous carb intake to make up for the loss in calories. Do cardio ED or EOD and continue to include high protein, high starchy carb and fibrous carb intake in every meal. Lastly, consuming MCT's as a replacement dietary fat for increased energy. It's not a crazy concept. It's a concept that allows you to maintain all of your muscle and lose the fat. That's all I'm trying to suggest. You don't have to lose muscle in the process, all-natural or not!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdg76 View Post
    I'm on my phone so this will be short. But you seriuosly are going to use a wikepedia reference?
    ok, so you don't believe what it says? Let me go find another reference. It's all the same. Just because professor's dont like it doesn't mean that its not good. They reference their finding on wiki.

    Insulin is a hormone that has profound effects on metabolism. Insulin causes cells in the liver, muscle, and fat tissue to take up glucose from the blood, storing it as glycogen in the liver and muscle, and stopping use of fat as an energy source. When insulin is absent (or low), glucose is not taken up by body cells, and the body begins to use fat as an energy source, for example, by transfer of lipids from adipose tissue to the liver for mobilization as an energy source. As its level is a central metabolic control mechanism, its status is also used as a control signal to other body systems (such as amino acid uptake by body cells). In addition, it has several other anabolic effects throughout the body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdg76 View Post
    I'm on my phone so this will be short. But you seriuosly are going to use a wikepedia reference?
    Regardless of my source, I feel it shouldn't even be necessary to explain the point. Insulin is to carbs, not protein. This is commonly known to any half-educated individual in medical science.
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    Completely agree with trying to keep as much lean muscle as possible whole dieting. But to say you are tired of bro science and then try to tell me a low fat diet will not effect test levels is bro science in itself. And besides what looks like a magazine article I haven't seen any studies showing if you increase your Carb intake you can lower bf?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdg76 View Post
    I'm on my phone so this will be short. But you seriuosly are going to use a wikepedia reference?
    and more from "How it works"

    The activity of lipoprotein lipases depends upon the levels of insulin in the body. If insulin is high, then the lipases are highly active; if insulin is low, the lipases are inactive.
    The fatty acids are then absorbed from the blood into fat cells, muscle cells and liver cells. In these cells, under stimulation by insulin, fatty acids are made into fat molecules and stored as fat droplets.
    It is also possible for fat cells to take up glucose and amino acids, which have been absorbed into the bloodstream after a meal, and convert those into fat molecules. The conversion of carbohydrates or protein into fat is 10 times less efficient than simply storing fat in a fat cell, but the body can do it. If you have 100 extra calories in fat (about 11 grams) floating in your bloodstream, fat cells can store it using only 2.5 calories of energy. On the other hand, if you have 100 extra calories in glucose (about 25 grams) floating in your bloodstream, it takes 23 calories of energy to convert the glucose into fat and then store it. Given a choice, a fat cell will grab the fat and store it rather than the carbohydrates because fat is so much easier to store.
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    Insulin is to carbs. I agree. But i is also shown they whey can spike insulin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdg76 View Post
    Insulin is to carbs. I agree. But i is also shown they whey can spike insulin.
    "whey" or protein?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post

    There is not evidence that protein, all by itself, causes insulin release. It just doesn't. Glucose does.
    1. Wikipedia is not an acceptable reference

    2. PRO intake does illicit an insulin response.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    "whey" or protein?
    another good thing to look at:

    http://health.howstuffworks.com/well...s/weight-loss/do-high-fat-low-carb-diets-work.htm

    And to sum it up: It's the "whey" part of whey protein that causes insulin release, which isn't really a spike either, just a release. It's the insulinotropic properties that cause such and this is exclusive to milk proteins. To argue with me about a very particular protein causing insulin release does not in any way defeat my purpose of having whole food proteins coming in at a 1.5:1 ratio of protein to carbs, measure in grams. Best results happen there.

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/80/5/1246.full


    1.5g/lb of body weight in protein and 1g/lb of body weight in carbs. Eat mostly fibrous carbs to get even more ripped. For me, it'd look like this

    225g protein
    150g carbs
    30-40g dietary fats
    35g of MCT's (which are fats BTW)

    That puts me at roughly 2100-2200 calories/day @ 150lbs of mass. I'd recommend the same proportions to anyone training for a comp since getting shredded is the key. However, I wouldn't do this ratio longer than 4-5 weeks since going that low on carbs is hard on the body especially when you are doing alot of cardio.
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    The whole challenge to my point was how does the ratio of protein to carbs matter? How does protein play a key role in glucagon release? Read here:

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post

    1. Wikipedia is not an acceptable reference

    2. PRO intake does illicit an insulin response.
    Even if it is correct? What's the point of having a reference if the recipient isn't willing to accept accurate information? I believe at this point it seems more important to this community of people to just be right, rather than actually learning something new.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post

    And to sum it up: It's the "whey" part of whey protein that causes insulin release, which isn't really a spike either, just a release. It's the insulinotropic properties that cause such and this is exclusive to milk proteins. To argue with me about a very particular protein causing insulin release does not in any way defeat my purpose of having whole food proteins coming in at a 1.5:1 ratio of protein to carbs, measure in grams. Best results happen there.
    nope, ALL dietary protein will illicit some sort of insulin response. It is not exclusive to whey. Obviously the response is going to be like the response from CHO intake but a response will still occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Even if it is correct? What's the point of having a reference if the recipient isn't willing to accept accurate information? I believe at this point it seems more important to this community of people to just be right, rather than actually learning something new.
    Point is it is not an acceptable reference. Show actual data and not just someones opinion.

    And no, I dont have a need to be right as I have no problem with changing my belief and stance if I am presented with compelling evidence, what I do have is a problem with people spreading misinformation.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    You previuosly asked me to show you a study where whey caused an increase in insulin and now you are showing me a study saying "whey can increase insulin"?

    I'm done for now. You continue to change your argument as I make my points. When I can get to a computer ill continue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    nope, ALL dietary protein will illicit some sort of insulin response. It is not exclusive to whey. Obviously the response is going to be like the response from CHO intake but a response will still occur.



    Point is it is not an acceptable reference. Show actual data and not just someones opinion.

    And no, I dont have a need to be right as I have no problem with changing my belief and stance if I am presented with compelling evidence, what I do have is a problem with people spreading misinformation.
    ok. But does arguing with me about whey and whether or not protein causes insulin release really conflict with the point of my argument? I never wanted to camp out on insulin response to protein, I wanted to camp out on insulin response to carbs (and whether or not high carb diets cause fat accumulation). And I also had a decent argument about fats calories being more likely to store up into fat droplets when compared to carbs. In fact, they are 10 times more likely to store up as fat cells to be exact. All of this was in attempt to suggest to the OP that low carb dieting isn't the way to go and that there are ways to lose the fat without sacrificing muscle mass.

    While you guys are winning the argument about whey protein causing an insulin response, you've completely diverted attention away from the point of my post, which had nothing to do with proteins alone, but more to do with insulin and glucagon response.

    Man I'm sorry to stir up trouble. Seems when someone tries to go against the grain they get a lot of push-back in here. I'm tired of pioneering to be honest. I'll just shut up and go away for you guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    The whole challenge to my point was how does the ratio of protein to carbs matter? How does protein play a key role in glucagon release? Read here:
    In the excerpt you posted (attached) the author states one should keep their fat intake at 5% of their total caloric intake.

    Throw the book away
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    ok. But does arguing with me about whey and whether or not protein causes insulin release really conflict with the point of my argument? I never wanted to camp out on insulin response to protein,
    it was the discussion when I stumbled into the thread. There was too many post and so much nonsense to go back and quote it all


    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I wanted to camp out on insulin response to carbs (and whether or not high carb diets cause fat accumulation). And I also had a decent argument about fats calories being more likely to store up into fat droplets when compared to carbs.

    In fact, they are 10 times more likely to store up as fat cells to be exact.
    No single macro is going to lead to fat automatic fat gain on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    All of this was in attempt to suggest to the OP that low carb dieting isn't the way to go and that there are ways to lose the fat without sacrificing muscle mass.
    lowering carb intake does not necessarily mean you are going to loose muscle.

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Man I'm sorry to stir up trouble. Seems when someone tries to go against the grain they get a lot of push-back in here. I'm tired of pioneering to be honest. I'll just shut up and go away for you guys.
    Pioneering what? lol.. Your post arent against the grain, they are the grain. High carb/low fat is better is what the popular belief is. Lowering carbs and higherig fat i take is the stance thy goes against conventional beliefs
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    Ok. so where to start........


    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    ok, so you don't believe what it says? Let me go find another reference. It's all the same. Just because professor's dont like it doesn't mean that its not good. They reference their finding on wiki.

    Insulin is a . Insulin causes cells in the liver, muscle, and fat tissue to take up glucose from the blood, storing it as glycogen in the liver and muscle, and stopping use of fat as an energy source. When insulin is absent (or low), glucose is not taken up by body cells, and the body begins to use fat as an energy source, for example, by transfer of lipids from adipose tissue to the liver for mobilization as an energy source. As its level is a central metabolic control mechanism, its status is also used as a control signal to other body systems (such as amino acid uptake by body cells). In addition, it has several other anabolic effects throughout the body.

    The bolded above that you posted shows that if you keep your carbs lower, which in return keeps insulin low your body will turn to fat to burn energy, and in return use adipose tissue. You will drop BF by lowering your carbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Regardless of my source, I feel it shouldn't even be necessary to explain the point. Insulin is to carbs, not protein. This is commonly known to any half-educated individual in medical science.
    I honestly do not know why you keep showing the definition of insulin in the first place. It neither proves me wrong that whey will raise it, nor proves your theory right that by raising it with more carbs it will help you lose weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Even if it is correct? What's the point of having a reference if the recipient isn't willing to accept accurate information? I believe at this point it seems more important to this community of people to just be right, rather than actually learning something new.
    I just don't like the idea of using wikipedia when my 11 year old son can go in and edit it. Granted a lot of it is correct, I will not use a source from it to argue a point.


    Most discussions like this are because both parties think they are right. You have your opinion, as do I. It doesn't make this forum one sided just because someone wants to argue a point.

    You stated in the beggining of this discussion that you wanted to see sources showing the realationship between low fats and low testosterone. And that whey has the ability to raise insulin. I showed my side of it. I also see that this discussion can go on and on because there will always be conflicting studies.

    So I will leave it alone from here. All I ask is if you are going to ask someone to show studies to back up what they are stating that you do the same. I never seen a study saying raising your carbs will help you burn more carbs and lose BF or that lowering your fats will not affect your test levels.
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    Also discussions like this help, more than they hurt because studies can be shown and the affects of different supplementation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion
    You will drop weight if u cut carbs. That is true. Unless u have ample amount of calories for ur muscle, part of that weight loss is lean muscle mass. And as u lose muscle mass, ur metabolism also decreases since ur energy expenditures decrease.

    If u convert ur carbs to "clean" carbs, including fiber and protein in the presence of every meal will mitigate almost all fat accumulations.

    Protein doesn't cause insulin release. Sugar does, Which is present in every whey product.

    Regardless of cutting or bulking, the body needs a certain amount of calories to maintain its current lean body mass. When ur macro layout has a higher amount of protein and lower amount of carbs (while not cutting calories), ur body tends to have a higher amount of glucagon in the blood stream thus leading toward a more favorable environment for cutting. The solution isnt to cut calories, but rather to avoid fat accumulation while ramping up fat burning activities.

    Carbs only store up as fat cells when u eat too many carbs at once, causing a large insulin spike. Such a spike occurs when u eat refined carbs and simple carbs. If carbs are causing fat accumulation then its because ur diet isnt top notch and could use improvements.

    This is why I say avoid a high fat diet and avoid refined and simple carbs that tend to be stored up as fat. Also, fructose, which is in virtually all fruits, almost exclusively stores up as fats.

    This isnt theory. This is science. Everyone's body has the same processes. Some have a more sensitive hormone system than others - thisbis true. But what takes place in my body is for the most part the same as it is with urs.

    Here is a link for starters -

    download the link and enjoy.
    Top notch brotha.
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    Would it be safe to say that the ultra high level pro bodybuilders are using test, growth hormone, and insulin to prepare for contests? Thus, giving them the ability to eat higher carbs lower fat without gaining the fat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by emantest View Post
    Would it be safe to say that the ultra high level pro bodybuilders are using test, growth hormone, and insulin to prepare for contests? Thus, giving them the ability to eat higher carbs lower fat without gaining the fat?
    Yes sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by emantest View Post
    Would it be safe to say that the ultra high level pro bodybuilders are using test, growth hormone, and insulin to prepare for contests? Thus, giving them the ability to eat higher carbs lower fat without gaining the fat?
    Haha, they literally use the kitchen sink bro. Gh, test, every anabolic you can imagine, orals, insulin, peptides, seo, tanning agents, thyroid medications, stimulants, relaxants, pain medications, all in high doses, and all YEAR round. When they say "genetics" they aren't referring to their bicep peak or quad sweep. They are referring to their ability to handle all of these drugs with their health still somewhat in tact. It is a sad truth my friend, but it is the truth. To answer your question though, yes they all play a role(super supps) but the main ones for high carbs and eating crazy amounts of food and stil getting to 4% body fat, are GH, t3, clen, and DNP. DNP actually INCREASES thermogenesis when you eat more carbs. Meaning, it enahcnes fat loss MORE with MORE carbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    You will drop weight if u cut carbs(yes, WATER weight and FAT, NOT muscle). That is true. Unless u have ample amount of calories for ur muscle, part of that weight loss is lean muscle mass. And as u lose muscle mass, ur metabolism also decreases since ur energy expenditures decrease. (You will NOT lose muscle mass in the first place, as long as you increase your protein intake, to compensate for your carb reduction. It is very basic macrunitrient manipulation.)
    If u convert ur carbs to "clean" carbs, including fiber and protein in the presence of every meal will mitigate almost all fat accumulations. (So will a ketogenic diet, but it will do it FASTER. You cannot beat a diet that has your body burning FAT as it's primary energy source.)

    Protein doesn't cause insulin release. (Wow, YES it DOES.) Sugar does, Which is present in every whey product. (INCORRECT, ever see Isopure Zero Carb and MANY other Zero sugar, Zero carb whey proteins?)
    Regardless of cutting or bulking, the body needs a certain amount of calories to maintain its current lean body mass. When ur macro layout has a higher amount of protein and lower amount of carbs (while not cutting calories), ur body tends to have a higher amount of glucagon in the blood stream thus leading toward a more favorable environment for cutting. The solution isnt to cut calories, but rather to avoid fat accumulation while ramping up fat burning activities.

    Carbs only store up as fat cells when u eat too many carbs at once(OR many carbs, with high fats as well), causing a large insulin spike. Such a spike occurs when u eat refined carbs and simple carbs.If carbs are causing fat accumulation then its because ur diet isnt top notch and could use improvements.

    This is why I say avoid a high fat diet and avoid refined and simple carbs that tend to be stored up as fat. Also, fructose, which is in virtually all fruits, almost exclusively stores up as fats. (FALSE, If that was true, how did I gt to my current 4.6% bodyfat while eating fruit at 3 of my 6 meals daily?)

    This isnt theory. This is science. Everyone's body has the same processes. Some have a more sensitive hormone system than others - thisbis true. But what takes place in my body is for the most part the same as it is with urs. (COMPLETELY WRONG)

    Here is a link for starters - http://www.parrillo.com/sng.asp

    download the link and enjoy.

    You clearly have read a lot, but you also clearly don't have a lot of real world experience. Ever heard of Dave Palumbo? Yea, well he does HIGH FAT and LOW carb diets with all his clients, some are IFBB pros, and he is an IFBB pro. Even in his off-season, he ONLY had 50g carbs pre and post workout. Well tell me something, did he lose muscle mass? I am currently doing keto right now in my contest prep with STELLAR results. I'm leaner AND GAINED muscle mass over these past 12 weeks. If you don't know about nutrition, macronutrients, nutrient timing, PROPER cardio whuile ON a keto diet, etc, then yes, you will lose muscle and look like garbage. If you DO know about the PROPER way to utilize a HIGH FAT and LOW CARB diet, you will be golden. There are MANY ways to skin a cat, and your hinting that keto and any other low carb diet is crap, is just ridiculous. You do NOT NEED a higher carb, higher fiber diet to get shredded AND gain muscle mass, PERIOD. I wouldn't be so condescending if it wasn't for your choise of words and thinking you know everything there is to know about nutrition.
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    Do I look like I lost muscle to you?

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    Sorry for the hijack OP. In my personal opinion, which is ONLY my opinion, is that you need to know YOUR body to decide which diet is best for you. Keto isn't the BEST diet for everyone, and neither is a carb cycling diet, or higher carb, very low fat diet. EVERYONE responds differently to EVERY SINGLE THING. When you eat 50g complex carbs for example, do you get bloated? If so, chances are you are pretty sensitive to insulin, meaning keto would be a great approach for you, or carb cycling, but in a different way, where you only have carbs ever OTHER meal on workout days, then on non-wo days, you only have ONE carb meal. There is NO end all be all diet, and NO set plan will EVER work the SAME for ANY 2 people. EVERYBODY is different. Take a 220lb male bodybuilder, take another 220lb male bodybuilder. Have them train exactly the same way, eat exactly the same way, and diet exactly the same way, they will NOT look the same, have the same bodyfat % at the end of the diet, weigh the same, nor feel the same on said program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    ok. But does arguing with me about whey and whether or not protein causes insulin release really conflict with the point of my argument? (you were insisting how you were correct, using studies, etc, now that you are proven WRONG, you're saying it isn't a big deal in the big picture? if you are not 100% sure of something, then don't preach about it.) I never wanted to camp out on insulin response to protein, I wanted to camp out on insulin response to carbs (and whether or not high carb diets cause fat accumulation). (Which they can, if your fat is not low enough) And I also had a decent argument about fats calories being more likely to store up into fat droplets when compared to carbs. (No, not really, because it just is not true. It is the MACROS that matter, NOT just the GENERAL statement that fat is more liekly to cause fat gain than carbs. That is COMPLETELY FALSE. Eating fat does NOT make you gain fat, that is a very naive statement. You generalize things way too much.) In fact, they are 10 times more likely to store up as fat cells to be exact. (DEPENDING on the OTHER macros involved in the equation. If you have 100g carbs per meal and 100g fat, of COURSE you will get fat from that. If you have 20g fat per meal and 25g carbs, you will NOT get fat) All of this was in attempt to suggest to the OP that low carb dieting isn't the way to go and that there are ways to lose the fat without sacrificing muscle mass. (You are NOT the person to be telling the OP this, as you are not educated enough, nor are you aware that NOT EVERYONE'S BODY IS THE SAME, NOR DOES IT RESPOND THE SAME TO EVERYTHING)
    While you guys are winning the argument about whey protein causing an insulin response, you've completely diverted attention away from the point of my post, which had nothing to do with proteins alone, but more to do with insulin and glucagon response.

    Man I'm sorry to stir up trouble. Seems when someone tries to go against the grain they get a lot of push-back in here. I'm tired of pioneering to be honest. I'll just shut up and go away for you guys.
    You are not pioneering, you are spewing tales of fallacy and broscience, that are total nonsense.
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