precontest prep... first comp...

[fueledpassion]

Regarding the fat studies, I haven't decided if I want to consider the info or not. Pseudo science reigns in colleges these days because it would simply cost too much time and money to actually find the exact relationship between fats and testosterone.

Since one of testosterone's main duties is to mobilize fat cells to be used for energy, I can believe that one's free test levels would decrease in a low-fat diet since the need for such is reduced. Granted, this might also be why pro bodybuilder's decided to make steroids a key ingredient to their diets, allowing them to stay away from fats yet still have their T-levels high. This would allow them to become very lean without losing strength, stamina and lean mass.

But anyways, the point to my argument was not to just "lower fat intake", quite honestly 20% of daily intake would be fine, which is what everyone seems to shoot for anyways (40/40/20). But the point was to lower fat intake and simultaneously increase starchy and fibrous carb intake to make up for the loss in calories. Do cardio ED or EOD and continue to include high protein, high starchy carb and fibrous carb intake in every meal. Lastly, consuming MCT's as a replacement dietary fat for increased energy. It's not a crazy concept. It's a concept that allows you to maintain all of your muscle and lose the fat. That's all I'm trying to suggest. You don't have to lose muscle in the process, all-natural or not!

 

[fueledpassion]

I'm on my phone so this will be short. But you seriuosly are going to use a wikepedia reference? :laugh2:

ok, so you don't believe what it says? Let me go find another reference. It's all the same. Just because professor's dont like it doesn't mean that its not good. They reference their finding on wiki.

Insulin is a hormone that has profound effects on metabolism. Insulin causes cells in the liver, muscle, and fat tissue to take up glucose from the blood, storing it as glycogen in the liver and muscle, and stopping use of fat as an energy source. When insulin is absent (or low), glucose is not taken up by body cells, and the body begins to use fat as an energy source, for example, by transfer of lipids from adipose tissue to the liver for mobilization as an energy source. As its level is a central metabolic control mechanism, its status is also used as a control signal to other body systems (such as amino acid uptake by body cells). In addition, it has several other anabolic effects throughout the body.

 

[fueledpassion]

I'm on my phone so this will be short. But you seriuosly are going to use a wikepedia reference? :laugh2:

Regardless of my source, I feel it shouldn't even be necessary to explain the point. Insulin is to carbs, not protein. This is commonly known to any half-educated individual in medical science.

 

[jdg76]

Completely agree with trying to keep as much lean muscle as possible whole dieting. But to say you are tired of bro science and then try to tell me a low fat diet will not effect test levels is bro science in itself. And besides what looks like a magazine article I haven't seen any studies showing if you increase your Carb intake you can lower bf?

 

[fueledpassion]

I'm on my phone so this will be short. But you seriuosly are going to use a wikepedia reference? :laugh2:

and more from "How it works"

The activity of lipoprotein lipases depends upon the levels of insulin in the body. If insulin is high, then the lipases are highly active; if insulin is low, the lipases are inactive.
The fatty acids are then absorbed from the blood into fat cells, muscle cells and liver cells. In these cells, under stimulation by insulin, fatty acids are made into fat molecules and stored as fat droplets.
It is also possible for fat cells to take up glucose and amino acids, which have been absorbed into the bloodstream after a meal, and convert those into fat molecules. The conversion of carbohydrates or protein into fat is 10 times less efficient than simply storing fat in a fat cell, but the body can do it. If you have 100 extra calories in fat (about 11 grams) floating in your bloodstream, fat cells can store it using only 2.5 calories of energy. On the other hand, if you have 100 extra calories in glucose (about 25 grams) floating in your bloodstream, it takes 23 calories of energy to convert the glucose into fat and then store it. Given a choice, a fat cell will grab the fat and store it rather than the carbohydrates because fat is so much easier to store.

 

[jdg76]

Insulin is to carbs. I agree. But i is also shown they whey can spike insulin.

 

[fueledpassion]

Insulin is to carbs. I agree. But i is also shown they whey can spike insulin.

"whey" or protein?

 

[JudoJosh]

There is not evidence that protein, all by itself, causes insulin release. It just doesn't. Glucose does.

1. Wikipedia is not an acceptable reference

2. PRO intake does illicit an insulin response.

 

[fueledpassion]

"whey" or protein?

another good thing to look at:

http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/diet-fitness/weight-loss/do-high-fat-low-carb-diets-work.htm

And to sum it up: It's the "whey" part of whey protein that causes insulin release, which isn't really a spike either, just a release. It's the insulinotropic properties that cause such and this is exclusive to milk proteins. To argue with me about a very particular protein causing insulin release does not in any way defeat my purpose of having whole food proteins coming in at a 1.5:1 ratio of protein to carbs, measure in grams. Best results happen there.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/80/5/1246.full


1.5g/lb of body weight in protein and 1g/lb of body weight in carbs. Eat mostly fibrous carbs to get even more ripped. For me, it'd look like this

225g protein
150g carbs
30-40g dietary fats
35g of MCT's (which are fats BTW)

That puts me at roughly 2100-2200 calories/day @ 150lbs of mass. I'd recommend the same proportions to anyone training for a comp since getting shredded is the key. However, I wouldn't do this ratio longer than 4-5 weeks since going that low on carbs is hard on the body especially when you are doing alot of cardio.

 

[fueledpassion]

The whole challenge to my point was how does the ratio of protein to carbs matter? How does protein play a key role in glucagon release? Read here:

 

[fueledpassion]

1. Wikipedia is not an acceptable reference

2. PRO intake does illicit an insulin response.

Even if it is correct? What's the point of having a reference if the recipient isn't willing to accept accurate information? I believe at this point it seems more important to this community of people to just be right, rather than actually learning something new.

 

[JudoJosh]

And to sum it up: It's the "whey" part of whey protein that causes insulin release, which isn't really a spike either, just a release. It's the insulinotropic properties that cause such and this is exclusive to milk proteins. To argue with me about a very particular protein causing insulin release does not in any way defeat my purpose of having whole food proteins coming in at a 1.5:1 ratio of protein to carbs, measure in grams. Best results happen there.

nope, ALL dietary protein will illicit some sort of insulin response. It is not exclusive to whey. Obviously the response is going to be like the response from CHO intake but a response will still occur.

Even if it is correct? What's the point of having a reference if the recipient isn't willing to accept accurate information? I believe at this point it seems more important to this community of people to just be right, rather than actually learning something new.

Point is it is not an acceptable reference. Show actual data and not just someones opinion.

And no, I dont have a need to be right as I have no problem with changing my belief and stance if I am presented with compelling evidence, what I do have is a problem with people spreading misinformation.

 

[jdg76]

You previuosly asked me to show you a study where whey caused an increase in insulin and now you are showing me a study saying "whey can increase insulin"?

I'm done for now. You continue to change your argument as I make my points. When I can get to a computer ill continue.

 

[fueledpassion]

nope, ALL dietary protein will illicit some sort of insulin response. It is not exclusive to whey. Obviously the response is going to be like the response from CHO intake but a response will still occur.



Point is it is not an acceptable reference. Show actual data and not just someones opinion.

And no, I dont have a need to be right as I have no problem with changing my belief and stance if I am presented with compelling evidence, what I do have is a problem with people spreading misinformation.

ok. But does arguing with me about whey and whether or not protein causes insulin release really conflict with the point of my argument? I never wanted to camp out on insulin response to protein, I wanted to camp out on insulin response to carbs (and whether or not high carb diets cause fat accumulation). And I also had a decent argument about fats calories being more likely to store up into fat droplets when compared to carbs. In fact, they are 10 times more likely to store up as fat cells to be exact. All of this was in attempt to suggest to the OP that low carb dieting isn't the way to go and that there are ways to lose the fat without sacrificing muscle mass.

While you guys are winning the argument about whey protein causing an insulin response, you've completely diverted attention away from the point of my post, which had nothing to do with proteins alone, but more to do with insulin and glucagon response.

Man I'm sorry to stir up trouble. Seems when someone tries to go against the grain they get a lot of push-back in here. I'm tired of pioneering to be honest. I'll just shut up and go away for you guys.

 

[JudoJosh]

The whole challenge to my point was how does the ratio of protein to carbs matter? How does protein play a key role in glucagon release? Read here:

In the excerpt you posted (attached) the author states one should keep their fat intake at 5% of their total caloric intake.

Throw the book away

 

[JudoJosh]

ok. But does arguing with me about whey and whether or not protein causes insulin release really conflict with the point of my argument? I never wanted to camp out on insulin response to protein,

it was the discussion when I stumbled into the thread. There was too many post and so much nonsense to go back and quote it all

I wanted to camp out on insulin response to carbs (and whether or not high carb diets cause fat accumulation). And I also had a decent argument about fats calories being more likely to store up into fat droplets when compared to carbs.

In fact, they are 10 times more likely to store up as fat cells to be exact.

No single macro is going to lead to fat automatic fat gain on its own.

All of this was in attempt to suggest to the OP that low carb dieting isn't the way to go and that there are ways to lose the fat without sacrificing muscle mass.

lowering carb intake does not necessarily mean you are going to loose muscle.

Man I'm sorry to stir up trouble. Seems when someone tries to go against the grain they get a lot of push-back in here. I'm tired of pioneering to be honest. I'll just shut up and go away for you guys.

Pioneering what? lol.. Your post arent against the grain, they are the grain. High carb/low fat is better is what the popular belief is. Lowering carbs and higherig fat i take is the stance thy goes against conventional beliefs

 

[jdg76]

Ok. so where to start........

ok, so you don't believe what it says? Let me go find another reference. It's all the same. Just because professor's dont like it doesn't mean that its not good. They reference their finding on wiki.

Insulin is a . Insulin causes cells in the liver, muscle, and fat tissue to take up glucose from the blood, storing it as glycogen in the liver and muscle, and stopping use of fat as an energy source. When insulin is absent (or low), glucose is not taken up by body cells, and the body begins to use fat as an energy source, for example, by transfer of lipids from adipose tissue to the liver for mobilization as an energy source. As its level is a central metabolic control mechanism, its status is also used as a control signal to other body systems (such as amino acid uptake by body cells). In addition, it has several other anabolic effects throughout the body.

The bolded above that you posted shows that if you keep your carbs lower, which in return keeps insulin low your body will turn to fat to burn energy, and in return use adipose tissue. You will drop BF by lowering your carbs.

Regardless of my source, I feel it shouldn't even be necessary to explain the point. Insulin is to carbs, not protein. This is commonly known to any half-educated individual in medical science.

I honestly do not know why you keep showing the definition of insulin in the first place. It neither proves me wrong that whey will raise it, nor proves your theory right that by raising it with more carbs it will help you lose weight.

Even if it is correct? What's the point of having a reference if the recipient isn't willing to accept accurate information? I believe at this point it seems more important to this community of people to just be right, rather than actually learning something new.

I just don't like the idea of using wikipedia when my 11 year old son can go in and edit it. Granted a lot of it is correct, I will not use a source from it to argue a point.


Most discussions like this are because both parties think they are right. You have your opinion, as do I. It doesn't make this forum one sided just because someone wants to argue a point.

You stated in the beggining of this discussion that you wanted to see sources showing the realationship between low fats and low testosterone. And that whey has the ability to raise insulin. I showed my side of it. I also see that this discussion can go on and on because there will always be conflicting studies.

So I will leave it alone from here. All I ask is if you are going to ask someone to show studies to back up what they are stating that you do the same. I never seen a study saying raising your carbs will help you burn more carbs and lose BF or that lowering your fats will not affect your test levels.

 

[jdg76]

Also discussions like this help, more than they hurt because studies can be shown and the affects of different supplementation.

 

[bruiser74]

You will drop weight if u cut carbs. That is true. Unless u have ample amount of calories for ur muscle, part of that weight loss is lean muscle mass. And as u lose muscle mass, ur metabolism also decreases since ur energy expenditures decrease.

If u convert ur carbs to "clean" carbs, including fiber and protein in the presence of every meal will mitigate almost all fat accumulations.

Protein doesn't cause insulin release. Sugar does, Which is present in every whey product.

Regardless of cutting or bulking, the body needs a certain amount of calories to maintain its current lean body mass. When ur macro layout has a higher amount of protein and lower amount of carbs (while not cutting calories), ur body tends to have a higher amount of glucagon in the blood stream thus leading toward a more favorable environment for cutting. The solution isnt to cut calories, but rather to avoid fat accumulation while ramping up fat burning activities.

Carbs only store up as fat cells when u eat too many carbs at once, causing a large insulin spike. Such a spike occurs when u eat refined carbs and simple carbs. If carbs are causing fat accumulation then its because ur diet isnt top notch and could use improvements.

This is why I say avoid a high fat diet and avoid refined and simple carbs that tend to be stored up as fat. Also, fructose, which is in virtually all fruits, almost exclusively stores up as fats.

This isnt theory. This is science. Everyone's body has the same processes. Some have a more sensitive hormone system than others - thisbis true. But what takes place in my body is for the most part the same as it is with urs.

Here is a link for starters -

download the link and enjoy.

Top notch brotha.

 

[emantest]

Would it be safe to say that the ultra high level pro bodybuilders are using test, growth hormone, and insulin to prepare for contests? Thus, giving them the ability to eat higher carbs lower fat without gaining the fat?

 

[jdg76]

Would it be safe to say that the ultra high level pro bodybuilders are using test, growth hormone, and insulin to prepare for contests? Thus, giving them the ability to eat higher carbs lower fat without gaining the fat?

Yes sir

 

[JayDee6]

Would it be safe to say that the ultra high level pro bodybuilders are using test, growth hormone, and insulin to prepare for contests? Thus, giving them the ability to eat higher carbs lower fat without gaining the fat?

Haha, they literally use the kitchen sink bro. Gh, test, every anabolic you can imagine, orals, insulin, peptides, seo, tanning agents, thyroid medications, stimulants, relaxants, pain medications, all in high doses, and all YEAR round. When they say "genetics" they aren't referring to their bicep peak or quad sweep. They are referring to their ability to handle all of these drugs with their health still somewhat in tact. It is a sad truth my friend, but it is the truth. To answer your question though, yes they all play a role(super supps) but the main ones for high carbs and eating crazy amounts of food and stil getting to 4% body fat, are GH, t3, clen, and DNP. DNP actually INCREASES thermogenesis when you eat more carbs. Meaning, it enahcnes fat loss MORE with MORE carbs.

 

[JayDee6]

You will drop weight if u cut carbs(yes, WATER weight and FAT, NOT muscle). That is true. Unless u have ample amount of calories for ur muscle, part of that weight loss is lean muscle mass. And as u lose muscle mass, ur metabolism also decreases since ur energy expenditures decrease. (You will NOT lose muscle mass in the first place, as long as you increase your protein intake, to compensate for your carb reduction. It is very basic macrunitrient manipulation.)
If u convert ur carbs to "clean" carbs, including fiber and protein in the presence of every meal will mitigate almost all fat accumulations. (So will a ketogenic diet, but it will do it FASTER. You cannot beat a diet that has your body burning FAT as it's primary energy source.)

Protein doesn't cause insulin release. (Wow, YES it DOES.) Sugar does, Which is present in every whey product. (INCORRECT, ever see Isopure Zero Carb and MANY other Zero sugar, Zero carb whey proteins?)
Regardless of cutting or bulking, the body needs a certain amount of calories to maintain its current lean body mass. When ur macro layout has a higher amount of protein and lower amount of carbs (while not cutting calories), ur body tends to have a higher amount of glucagon in the blood stream thus leading toward a more favorable environment for cutting. The solution isnt to cut calories, but rather to avoid fat accumulation while ramping up fat burning activities.

Carbs only store up as fat cells when u eat too many carbs at once(OR many carbs, with high fats as well), causing a large insulin spike. Such a spike occurs when u eat refined carbs and simple carbs.If carbs are causing fat accumulation then its because ur diet isnt top notch and could use improvements.

This is why I say avoid a high fat diet and avoid refined and simple carbs that tend to be stored up as fat. Also, fructose, which is in virtually all fruits, almost exclusively stores up as fats. (FALSE, If that was true, how did I gt to my current 4.6% bodyfat while eating fruit at 3 of my 6 meals daily?)

This isnt theory. This is science. Everyone's body has the same processes. Some have a more sensitive hormone system than others - thisbis true. But what takes place in my body is for the most part the same as it is with urs. (COMPLETELY WRONG)

Here is a link for starters - http://www.parrillo.com/sng.asp

download the link and enjoy.

You clearly have read a lot, but you also clearly don't have a lot of real world experience. Ever heard of Dave Palumbo? Yea, well he does HIGH FAT and LOW carb diets with all his clients, some are IFBB pros, and he is an IFBB pro. Even in his off-season, he ONLY had 50g carbs pre and post workout. Well tell me something, did he lose muscle mass? I am currently doing keto right now in my contest prep with STELLAR results. I'm leaner AND GAINED muscle mass over these past 12 weeks. If you don't know about nutrition, macronutrients, nutrient timing, PROPER cardio whuile ON a keto diet, etc, then yes, you will lose muscle and look like garbage. If you DO know about the PROPER way to utilize a HIGH FAT and LOW CARB diet, you will be golden. There are MANY ways to skin a cat, and your hinting that keto and any other low carb diet is crap, is just ridiculous. You do NOT NEED a higher carb, higher fiber diet to get shredded AND gain muscle mass, PERIOD. I wouldn't be so condescending if it wasn't for your choise of words and thinking you know everything there is to know about nutrition.

 

[JayDee6]

Do I look like I lost muscle to you?

 

[JayDee6]

Sorry for the hijack OP. In my personal opinion, which is ONLY my opinion, is that you need to know YOUR body to decide which diet is best for you. Keto isn't the BEST diet for everyone, and neither is a carb cycling diet, or higher carb, very low fat diet. EVERYONE responds differently to EVERY SINGLE THING. When you eat 50g complex carbs for example, do you get bloated? If so, chances are you are pretty sensitive to insulin, meaning keto would be a great approach for you, or carb cycling, but in a different way, where you only have carbs ever OTHER meal on workout days, then on non-wo days, you only have ONE carb meal. There is NO end all be all diet, and NO set plan will EVER work the SAME for ANY 2 people. EVERYBODY is different. Take a 220lb male bodybuilder, take another 220lb male bodybuilder. Have them train exactly the same way, eat exactly the same way, and diet exactly the same way, they will NOT look the same, have the same bodyfat % at the end of the diet, weigh the same, nor feel the same on said program.

 

[JayDee6]

ok. But does arguing with me about whey and whether or not protein causes insulin release really conflict with the point of my argument? (you were insisting how you were correct, using studies, etc, now that you are proven WRONG, you're saying it isn't a big deal in the big picture? if you are not 100% sure of something, then don't preach about it.) I never wanted to camp out on insulin response to protein, I wanted to camp out on insulin response to carbs (and whether or not high carb diets cause fat accumulation). (Which they can, if your fat is not low enough) And I also had a decent argument about fats calories being more likely to store up into fat droplets when compared to carbs. (No, not really, because it just is not true. It is the MACROS that matter, NOT just the GENERAL statement that fat is more liekly to cause fat gain than carbs. That is COMPLETELY FALSE. Eating fat does NOT make you gain fat, that is a very naive statement. You generalize things way too much.) In fact, they are 10 times more likely to store up as fat cells to be exact. (DEPENDING on the OTHER macros involved in the equation. If you have 100g carbs per meal and 100g fat, of COURSE you will get fat from that. If you have 20g fat per meal and 25g carbs, you will NOT get fat) All of this was in attempt to suggest to the OP that low carb dieting isn't the way to go and that there are ways to lose the fat without sacrificing muscle mass. (You are NOT the person to be telling the OP this, as you are not educated enough, nor are you aware that NOT EVERYONE'S BODY IS THE SAME, NOR DOES IT RESPOND THE SAME TO EVERYTHING)
While you guys are winning the argument about whey protein causing an insulin response, you've completely diverted attention away from the point of my post, which had nothing to do with proteins alone, but more to do with insulin and glucagon response.

Man I'm sorry to stir up trouble. Seems when someone tries to go against the grain they get a lot of push-back in here. I'm tired of pioneering to be honest. I'll just shut up and go away for you guys.

You are not pioneering, you are spewing tales of fallacy and broscience, that are total nonsense.