- 10-26-2011, 10:15 PM
- 11-01-2011, 12:57 AM
Reply for PA
What I know about it right now:
1) Dendramine is naturally occurring in D. Nobile - along with several other homologs. I'm guessing these compounds will be found in many other species of Dendrobium (fair to say they are).
2) In addition to being used to treat some eye disorders in China, the stems and roots of this plant are decocted into "tea" that
has been used by TCM doctors to treat (this does not really translate perfectly into English) "lack of energy while having sex" is pretty literal I guess. Other uses for this herb (with or without some other herbs in combination) include:
"In traditional Chinese medicine, dendrobium is used primarily to replenish fluids. It is commonly used as a yin tonic to moisten the stomach and lungs, and has also been traditionally used as a tea to replace kidney yin jing. It is very effective for treating conditions such as dry mouth, stomach pain, mouth sores, sunstroke, and other conditions caused by dry weather, pollution or smoke.
Additionally, dendrobium is used to enhance skin quality. Dendrobium keeps the skin moist; constant drinking of dendrobium tea is believed to result in soft, beautiful skin."
Wikipedia has a nice list of other orchids in this genus should you be so inclined.
3) You can purchase tea bags with D. Nobile all over China as well as in many Chinese markets in states. In NJ, the Kam Man market in Edison sells two brands of Chinese tea that I could find over the weekend with this in it. The Great Wall Chinese Market in Franklin Park, NJ also carries it. I usually visit both of these markets (as well as a few others up by Rutgers in Highland Park) twice a month so my wife can purchase foods she likes that aren't available in Wegman's and places I shop. I'd be happy to buy a box of tea for you Pat and mail it to you if you want?
4) Because of item #3 this pretty much IMHO makes the stuff DSHEA Compliant. It's sold openly in the United States as a food and not even a dietary supplement. I'd argue you probably do not even need an NDI filed to sell it or put it in a dietary supplement as its "found in food."
5) I have no personal first hand use experiences with "pure Dendramine salts" so I have zero idea what they do at various doses. Might improve eyesight, turn me into a sexual dynamo, who knows? Maybe the effects at whatever dose Matt and his team are using it at or in some special combination he worked on make it suitable as a pre-workout thing? I don't know.
6) Geranamine, if it is DSHEA compliant, is not going to be based on that "Chinese study" that was sent around. They also did not find geranamine in that experiment, it was a "mistranslation" from Mandarin to English. They found something more akin to "geranamide" - this does not mean gerrie is not compliant, it does mean this Chinese study is not going to be useful for supporting it. Take a look on the table in that study of compound identified. Look at the 2D structure vs. what they translator calls it. That is not an amine. That is an amide. Clearly. Notice the ketone on the 2D diagram in the Chinese study. Where is there a ketone off a carbon in 4-methyl-2-hexanamine?
Personally, based on what I have heard while at SSW in Vegas, I do not think gerrie is long for the dietary supplement marketplace so kudos for Matt in trying to find something else which is clearly established beyond any doubt in the food chain as an alternative or replacement. If I had to speculate, I do not think FDA will force recalls but I think they have place for making an announcement in the Federal Register that will read on it not being allowed for sale after a certain date. My opinion of course, is just that...it is not law or what is going to happen. It's merely my speculation.
The stuff is banned in Canada, New Zealand and parts of Europe already so no shocker its going to be gone in the USA soon enough.
11-01-2011, 01:09 AM
A few examples: amfecloral, benzphetamine, clobenzorex, famprofazone, fencamine, fenethylline, fenproporex, furfenorex, mefenorex, prenylamine, and even selegiline.
Personally? Me thinks any messing around with the alpha carbon is going to end up very badly for the people selling it.
For the record, I do not agree with Pat (or Shulgin) that you need to have an alkyl group on the alpha carbon - or something big and bulky like it - in order to make a phenylethylamine work really well. Shulgin and his wife seemed far more interested in ethneogenic or entactogenic effects of these things as opposed to whether or not they were appetite suppressants or had other "non-trippy, touchy, feely effects."
Sometimes, synthesizing something and using it once (N = 1) does not really mean the compound sucks. Just because one guy used it on one day (or even for a week!) does not mean the stuff has no really good use.
While clearly sticking something off the alpha carbon yields the best and most fruit it is not the only mod that "works." Hordenine has no alpha carbon mod and it has an effect when used orally at 25-50mg for sure (and I do not mean the MAOI effect either).
I am not sure this is DSHEA "kosher" but the beta-methoxy stuff also seems to work pretty darn well also as a sympathomimetic.
I can't find a good argument for this stuff being compliant but maybe the folks selling it have? If so, kudos for them. Stuff works!
There are a few other "pureplay" PEA derivatives I bet that will make it to market soon as well as a bunch of tryptamines (which are even more hit or miss IMHO). No I am not inclined to list any of them here or anywhere else!
11-01-2011, 02:15 AM
11-05-2011, 05:43 PM
well, hordenine has a para hydroxyl. it's a pretty dirty stimulant, similar to tyramine: ineffective and ineffecient.
11-05-2011, 07:25 PM
if you look at the structure of dmaa in the right way you see why it works. it has the isopropylamine side chain (another way of saying the side chain has the alpha methyl) . However instead of a phenyl group it has a carbon isopropyl group it connects off of ( a bulky substituent though of course not quite as bulky as a phenyl). It really kinda makes sense why it works when you analyze the structure right
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
11-05-2011, 08:56 PM
yeah, its been known for awhile that the phenyl configuration is not necessary to induce considerable adrenergic activity (i.e. propylhexadrine, cyclopentamine, tuaminoheptane).
11-05-2011, 09:19 PM
its interesting, but if you think you are gonna find the next ephedrine or dmaa from the info provided dont get your hopes up. nonetheless, its valuable info
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
11-06-2011, 03:31 AM
You can probably run "some interference" against monoamine oxidase by incorporating a methyl, ethyl, methoxy at the amino terminal.
I'd also bet the beta carbon on the ethyl chain, if you can stick on something chunky enough (methoxy seems to work but again, not sure of compliance) seems to be ripe. Of course a hydroxyl (phenylethanolamine) seems to be crummy and makes things worse more often than not but I would not refer to that as "chunky or bulky."
Hordenine and tyramine may be "dirty" but they still have a stimulant effect despite the lack of an alpha alkyl (or any side chain) group. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Although I do not like N-Methyl-Tyramine one bit as it never did anything for me but give me a monster headache.
I won't argue with you that a nice big bump on the alpha carbon helps a lot...because of course it does. That's why amphetamines are what they are. I will say that IMHO you risk far more than the wrath of the FDA if you try to stick anything on the alpha carbon in a PEA type molecule. Pretty sure DEA is going to consider it a violation of the CSA. Die alpha carbon ist verboten!
Me thinks the best fruit is in looking at tryptamines/quinolones. Most of them aren't going to amount to a hill of beans but there are a few (aside from the obvious, controlled ones like DMT and the oxide and 5-MeOH versions and the lysergic acid homologs) that might be doable and are clearly NOT analogs (and should have a noticeable CNS effect(s) too - not just of the "trippitydoodah" type either!).
They are naturally occurring too just not in anything I can substantiate as a food or in the supplement realm before 10.15.1994!
And the ones I can probably make a pretty decent argument for as "found in food" - I like pukateine as a possibility and some of the homologs of glaucine that do not seem to have the "fatigue" effects associated with glaucine.
Pretty sure filing an NDI on any of these is going to be met with a less than enthusiastic response when the chemist at FDA gets a look at
a 2D diagram of what you're playing with though.
There are probably a few that are plausible as non-analogs based on IUPAC naming conventions. And if you speak Mandarin Chinese (or have access to someone who reads/writes it) and look hard enough, you can find a couple of tryptamine/quinolones that are herbal in nature, used in soups (decoctions) and have nice CNS stimulant effects and broncho-dilatory effects.
11-06-2011, 03:57 AM
Cyclopentamine is essentially the same as above but with a saturated five sided ring. I don't think its made anymore but again, had been sold as a drug for nasal decongestion which means its unable to be marketed as a dietary ingredient. It's also a bit like meth with alpha and N alkyl groups.
All 3 chemicals (propylhexadrine, cyclopentamine and methamphetamine) contain that 2-methylaminopropyl side-chain, the most notable (IMHO) difference between them is methamphetamine is an aromatic molecule containing a phenyl ring, while cyclopentamine and propylhexedrine are aliphatic and contain no delocalized electrons at all. This has an effect on potency for sure so while you do not need a phenyl or unsaturated ring to see an "effect" for sure the reduced alicyclic-alkylamines are far weaker from a CNS point of view than unsaturated methamphetamine.
Tuaminoheptane and its "cousin" heptaminol are already WADA banned (and both are used as drugs - negating their potential use as a dietary ingredient). Not sure if isometheptene is WADA banned but it is also used as a drug to treat migraines and has a vasoconstrictive effect (and lacks a phenyl or any ring for that matter). It too would be off limits as a dietary ingredient.
Yes, I know you did not claim any of these would make good or legal dietary ingredients.
I still think some of the PEA's have been overlooked though and while you may call them "dirty" or "less than optimally effective" (and for a lot of them I would be inclined to agree with you) they might be some of the few items left to us from a legal perspective.
There are also a couple of prurine derivatives (yeah, totally in another direction here) which are naturally occurring and might be "plausible" dietary ingredients.
No I am not inclined to mention any of them (or PEA's or tryptamines/quinolones) here. Get the Rosetta Stone program folks, learn Chinese, go to China, get a TCM Pharmacognosy text at a local medical school over there ($50) and start mining it for treasure!
11-06-2011, 04:06 AM
11-06-2011, 11:38 AM
geranamine is still around. ephedrine is still around, you just gotta get it at the pharmacy
so from a consumer point of view everything is still cool
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
11-07-2011, 12:02 AM
I can get methamphetamine and amphetamine at the pharmacy too if I have an Rx for it!
Gerrie is still around and will be for awhile. I would stock up on the 25mg caps if you like them since they won't be around forever.
Does Mike Mc. still sell them?
It will be interesting to see what breaks in 2012.
Its amazing how drug laws differ in various countries - I think you can get codeine OTC in Canada (like 8mg again) and I have seen 5mg
codeine phosphate in cough syrup (per 5ml) in China - along with a bunch of other ingredients. You can't buy caffeine tabs in China but codeine is OK. Tramadol used to be - essentially - OTC there too but they had a massive Ultram problem and since fixed that situation.
I have not seen too many stims in China OTC but you can get pretty much any antiobiotic (generic Z-Packs are like $3) or oral corticoid or
pretty much anything if you will sign for it. Since most Americans can't read my signature...I bet most Chinese can't either
The funniest thing to me was all over Southern China most Westerners get peppered in market places and malls by people trying to sell you Viagra or Kamagra or whatever PDE-5 inhibitor is in the local pharmacy today. I mean they actually stop you on the street and ask if you want to buy some. I think that is pretty ballsy - its basically like saying, "dude, looks like you can't get it up, want to buy this here stuff that will help?"
It's really bizarre. Caffeine (synthetic) is a big taboo over there and even the Chinese Red Bull does not have any in it that I could see on the label (or by drinking it - its also non-carbonated and tastes like syrup). But I can waltz into any TCM pharmacy and walk out with a pound of dried ma huang "tea" and that's just dandy. No problem.
I especially like their infomercials on CCTV for fat loss products. FTC would tar and feather any of us for making the type of analogies and claims they get away with over there.
11-07-2011, 01:04 AM
They even have splenda there now, several years back I suffered without it when I ran short.
I love the KFC coffee as well, they have that concentrated instant stuff, but McDonalds they will have coffee pot sitting on the machine for hours, its true terror.
This message was paid for by the Russians
11-07-2011, 01:32 AM
I think geranium will be around forever. The same people who said it wasnt actually found in geranium have now basically retracted their statements. But I guess no one goes around posting about it because the forums dont like positive news.
AHPA Clarifies Its Position on the Science Linking DMAA to Geranium Oil; New Research on DMAA in Geranium Reported
SILVER SPRING, Md. (August 11, 2011) -- The American Herbal Products Association (AHPA) recently announced a trade requirement for the labeling of products containing the ingredient 1,3-dimethylamylamine (DMAA).
The trade requirement, which becomes effective on January 13, 2012, requires that AHPA members do not label 1,3-dimethylamylamine, whether identified by this name or any synonym, as geranium oil or as any part of the geranium plant, whether by the common name of geranium or by the botanical name of any plant known as geranium. Nothing in the new requirement prevents labeling of any compound that is in fact derived from geranium plant materials by that compound's common or usual name.
"AHPA's new policy is limited only to labeling of products that contain DMAA as an ingredient," said Michael McGuffin, AHPA's president. "Some news reports have indicated, or appear to indicate, that AHPA has reached the conclusion that DMAA cannot be found in geranium oil. AHPA has reached no such conclusion."
In an August 8 statement to announce this policy, AHPA referenced a review of one published study that reported DMAA as a naturally occurring constituent of the geranium species, Pelargonium spp. In this announcement, AHPA inadvertently stated that there are no known-published reports indicating that DMAA is a natural product. This was a misstatement since the announcement noted the study, by Pinget al. (Ping Z, Jun Q, Qing L. A study on the chemical constituents of geranium oil.Journal of Guizhou Institute of Technology 1996;25:82-85), which identified the presence of DMAA in geranium.
In the interim, AHPA has been informed by an analytical chemist and an AHPA member that they have initiated new research on the chemistry of geranium. Both have reported that their preliminary results indicate the presence of DMAA, and some effort to validate these results is now planned.
11-07-2011, 01:43 AM
11-07-2011, 08:07 AM
the amount of guafenisin u get from 12.5mg primatene tablet should not be a problem for most people
please try to trim your posts down and stay on topic. i know you are a wealth of info. of all sorts but for the sake of the conversation here u need some more focus or everyone just gets overwhelmed
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
05-17-2012, 06:43 PM
05-23-2012, 12:23 AM
If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).