Dendramine

[UrAcGuy]

based on SAR inference, the phenylethylamines do not look too promising

I'd agree. There are potentially a few that may have some slightly better effect than B-PEA HCl. Alone there probably is not a heck of
a lot more that can be done with PEA's - realizing of course that a PEA "backbone" is found in the tryptamines, ecgonines and opiates too - I mean the more simple PEA homologs.

Then again with the right MAOi and in combination with a few other goodies? You may find pure bliss. Or not.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

And then some. There is a study in the Chengdu University of Traditional Chinese Medicine's (成都中医药大学) Journal of Pharmacognosy that goes into great detail about the prosexual effects of Dendrobine (金钗石斛含石斛碱), Dendramine (石斛胺), & Nobilonine (石斛次碱) and their purported abilities to "help you keep the yang up" if you know what I mean, PA. So maybe it won't wash your laundry but you might have to do your laundry after ingesting one of these guys.

I'll set you up for a great reply here to. The authors studied a "decoction" of Dendrobium nobile Lindl stems [来源] 为兰科植物石斛 and concluded basically that this may help guys "keep it up longer." Wouldn't you think something called a "decoction" would have the opposite type of effect?

These compounds also seem to prevent guys from falling asleep after sex and made some of the guys more talkative and animated.

I bet these compounds are naturally found in women's brains but not men's...:lol:

so you do know about it. why did you post

"Well at least dendramine is potentially compliant with DHSEA 1994 while geranamine clearly
ain't. No clue what dendramine does or why its in Driven's PWO but nice to see they did not
just go the geranamine route."


i dont appreciate games on my board here. if you have information then share it. dont play stupid just for an opportunity to be a smart ass and annoy me. If it were my choice right now I would ban you. Its not completely my choice though.

if you do stick around then act normal please. dont play any more games

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I'd agree. There are potentially a few that may have some slightly better effect than B-PEA HCl. Alone there probably is not a heck of
a lot more that can be done with PEA's - realizing of course that a PEA "backbone" is found in the tryptamines, ecgonines and opiates too - I mean the more simple PEA homologs.

Then again with the right MAOi and in combination with a few other goodies? You may find pure bliss. Or not.

u really need that alpha methyl group

 

[madchemist]

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=228049&loc=ec_rcs

 

[Patrick Arnold]

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=228049&loc=ec_rcs

dude thats an amphetamine prodrug. no? amide hydrolysis yields benzoic acid and amphetamine.

try selling the idea to AX. they love that stuff

 

[mr.cooper69]

dude thats an amphetamine prodrug. no? amide hydrolysis yields benzoic acid and amphetamine.

try selling the idea to AX. they love that stuff

lmfao

 

[budiz]

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=228049&loc=ec_rcs

I'm new here and this is basically the first thread I have ever read, but after seeing that molecule it looks like I have picked an interesting place to start.

regards

 

[madchemist]

u wanted an alpha methyl

 

[budiz]

Kinda looks like vyvanse

 

[madchemist]

Pro-1,3-DMAA

 

[Patrick Arnold]

u wanted an alpha methyl

without the incarceration potential

 

[UrAcGuy]

Reply for PA

so you do know about it. why did you post

"Well at least dendramine is potentially compliant with DHSEA 1994 while geranamine clearly
ain't. No clue what dendramine does or why its in Driven's PWO but nice to see they did not
just go the geranamine route."


i dont appreciate games on my board here. if you have information then share it. dont play stupid just for an opportunity to be a smart ass and annoy me. If it were my choice right now I would ban you. Its not completely my choice though.

if you do stick around then act normal please. dont play any more games

Whoa there Ace, simmer down! You seem to be a bit tense. I still do not know exactly why Matt and crew put this in a pre-workout product. Based on what I do know of it would not be my 1st, obvious choice, there are other tryptamines and even PEA homologs that I think look a lot better on paper than this stuff and have pretty good compliance arguments too. Maybe Matt and Rob tried it and it works better in real life than it would seem based on the literature? I don't know...I have some tea with these compounds in it and I am going to brew some up to see what happens. I'll let you know, OK? :boggled:

What I know about it right now:

1) Dendramine is naturally occurring in D. Nobile - along with several other homologs. I'm guessing these compounds will be found in many other species of Dendrobium (fair to say they are).

2) In addition to being used to treat some eye disorders in China, the stems and roots of this plant are decocted into "tea" that
has been used by TCM doctors to treat (this does not really translate perfectly into English) "lack of energy while having sex" is pretty literal I guess. Other uses for this herb (with or without some other herbs in combination) include:

"In traditional Chinese medicine, dendrobium is used primarily to replenish fluids. It is commonly used as a yin tonic to moisten the stomach and lungs, and has also been traditionally used as a tea to replace kidney yin jing. It is very effective for treating conditions such as dry mouth, stomach pain, mouth sores, sunstroke, and other conditions caused by dry weather, pollution or smoke.

Additionally, dendrobium is used to enhance skin quality. Dendrobium keeps the skin moist; constant drinking of dendrobium tea is believed to result in soft, beautiful skin."

Wikipedia has a nice list of other orchids in this genus should you be so inclined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dendrobium_species

3) You can purchase tea bags with D. Nobile all over China as well as in many Chinese markets in states. In NJ, the Kam Man market in Edison sells two brands of Chinese tea that I could find over the weekend with this in it. The Great Wall Chinese Market in Franklin Park, NJ also carries it. I usually visit both of these markets (as well as a few others up by Rutgers in Highland Park) twice a month so my wife can purchase foods she likes that aren't available in Wegman's and places I shop. I'd be happy to buy a box of tea for you Pat and mail it to you if you want?

4) Because of item #3 this pretty much IMHO makes the stuff DSHEA Compliant. It's sold openly in the United States as a food and not even a dietary supplement. I'd argue you probably do not even need an NDI filed to sell it or put it in a dietary supplement as its "found in food."

5) I have no personal first hand use experiences with "pure Dendramine salts" so I have zero idea what they do at various doses. Might improve eyesight, turn me into a sexual dynamo, who knows? Maybe the effects at whatever dose Matt and his team are using it at or in some special combination he worked on make it suitable as a pre-workout thing? I don't know.

6) Geranamine, if it is DSHEA compliant, is not going to be based on that "Chinese study" that was sent around. They also did not find geranamine in that experiment, it was a "mistranslation" from Mandarin to English. They found something more akin to "geranamide" - this does not mean gerrie is not compliant, it does mean this Chinese study is not going to be useful for supporting it. Take a look on the table in that study of compound identified. Look at the 2D structure vs. what they translator calls it. That is not an amine. That is an amide. Clearly. Notice the ketone on the 2D diagram in the Chinese study. Where is there a ketone off a carbon in 4-methyl-2-hexanamine?

Personally, based on what I have heard while at SSW in Vegas, I do not think gerrie is long for the dietary supplement marketplace so kudos for Matt in trying to find something else which is clearly established beyond any doubt in the food chain as an alternative or replacement. If I had to speculate, I do not think FDA will force recalls but I think they have place for making an announcement in the Federal Register that will read on it not being allowed for sale after a certain date. My opinion of course, is just that...it is not law or what is going to happen. It's merely my speculation.

The stuff is banned in Canada, New Zealand and parts of Europe already so no shocker its going to be gone in the USA soon enough.

 

[UrAcGuy]

dude thats an amphetamine prodrug. no? amide hydrolysis yields benzoic acid and amphetamine.

try selling the idea to AX. they love that stuff

There have been many amphetamine/methamphetamine pro-drugs sold as...Rx drugs!

A few examples: amfecloral, benzphetamine, clobenzorex, famprofazone, fencamine, fenethylline, fenproporex, furfenorex, mefenorex, prenylamine, and even selegiline.

Personally? Me thinks any messing around with the alpha carbon is going to end up very badly for the people selling it.

For the record, I do not agree with Pat (or Shulgin) that you need to have an alkyl group on the alpha carbon - or something big and bulky like it - in order to make a phenylethylamine work really well. Shulgin and his wife seemed far more interested in ethneogenic or entactogenic effects of these things as opposed to whether or not they were appetite suppressants or had other "non-trippy, touchy, feely effects."

Sometimes, synthesizing something and using it once (N = 1) does not really mean the compound sucks. Just because one guy used it on one day (or even for a week!) does not mean the stuff has no really good use.

While clearly sticking something off the alpha carbon yields the best and most fruit it is not the only mod that "works." Hordenine has no alpha carbon mod and it has an effect when used orally at 25-50mg for sure (and I do not mean the MAOI effect either).

I am not sure this is DSHEA "kosher" but the beta-methoxy stuff also seems to work pretty darn well also as a sympathomimetic.
I can't find a good argument for this stuff being compliant but maybe the folks selling it have? If so, kudos for them. Stuff works!

There are a few other "pureplay" PEA derivatives I bet that will make it to market soon as well as a bunch of tryptamines (which are even more hit or miss IMHO). No I am not inclined to list any of them here or anywhere else! :sad6:

 

[mr.cooper69]

There have been many amphetamine/methamphetamine pro-drugs sold as...Rx drugs!

A few examples: amfecloral, benzphetamine, clobenzorex, famprofazone, fencamine, fenethylline, fenproporex, furfenorex, mefenorex, prenylamine, and even selegiline.

Personally? Me thinks any messing around with the alpha carbon is going to end up very badly for the people selling it.

For the record, I do not agree with Pat (or Shulgin) that you need to have an alkyl group on the alpha carbon - or something big and bulky like it - in order to make a phenylethylamine work really well. Shulgin and his wife seemed far more interested in ethneogenic or entactogenic effects of these things as opposed to whether or not they were appetite suppressants or had other "non-trippy, touchy, feely effects."

Sometimes, synthesizing something and using it once (N = 1) does not really mean the compound sucks. Just because one guy used it on one day (or even for a week!) does not mean the stuff has no really good use.

While clearly sticking something off the alpha carbon yields the best and most fruit it is not the only mod that "works." Hordenine has no alpha carbon mod and it has an effect when used orally at 25-50mg for sure (and I do not mean the MAOI effect either).

I am not sure this is DSHEA "kosher" but the beta-methoxy stuff also seems to work pretty darn well also as a sympathomimetic.
I can't find a good argument for this stuff being compliant but maybe the folks selling it have? If so, kudos for them. Stuff works!

There are a few other "pureplay" PEA derivatives I bet that will make it to market soon as well as a bunch of tryptamines (which are even more hit or miss IMHO). No I am not inclined to list any of them here or anywhere else! :sad6:

Solid post Goodbro!

 

[madchemist]

well, hordenine has a para hydroxyl. it's a pretty dirty stimulant, similar to tyramine: ineffective and ineffecient.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

well, hordenine has a para hydroxyl. it's a pretty dirty stimulant, similar to tyramine: ineffective and ineffecient.

if you look at the structure of dmaa in the right way you see why it works. it has the isopropylamine side chain (another way of saying the side chain has the alpha methyl) . However instead of a phenyl group it has a carbon isopropyl group it connects off of ( a bulky substituent though of course not quite as bulky as a phenyl). It really kinda makes sense why it works when you analyze the structure right

 

[madchemist]

yeah, its been known for awhile that the phenyl configuration is not necessary to induce considerable adrenergic activity (i.e. propylhexadrine, cyclopentamine, tuaminoheptane).

 

[Patrick Arnold]

yeah, its been known for awhile that the phenyl configuration is not necessary to induce considerable adrenergic activity (i.e. propylhexadrine, cyclopentamine, tuaminoheptane).

yes, and there was one comprehensive study that really looked at all that. published in arzneimittel forshung decades ago. it clearly shows the structural requirements for sympathomimetic activity.

its interesting, but if you think you are gonna find the next ephedrine or dmaa from the info provided dont get your hopes up. nonetheless, its valuable info

 

[UrAcGuy]

well, hordenine has a para hydroxyl. it's a pretty dirty stimulant, similar to tyramine: ineffective and ineffecient.

Meh, so what? N,N'-dimethyl-PEA also has stimulant properties too at higher doses (but lower than PEA) and the effects last a lot longer than PEA relatively speaking - and there's a good case for it being DSHEA compliant too. No 4-OH there!

You can probably run "some interference" against monoamine oxidase by incorporating a methyl, ethyl, methoxy at the amino terminal.
I'd also bet the beta carbon on the ethyl chain, if you can stick on something chunky enough (methoxy seems to work but again, not sure of compliance) seems to be ripe. Of course a hydroxyl (phenylethanolamine) seems to be crummy and makes things worse more often than not but I would not refer to that as "chunky or bulky."

Hordenine and tyramine may be "dirty" but they still have a stimulant effect despite the lack of an alpha alkyl (or any side chain) group. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Although I do not like N-Methyl-Tyramine one bit as it never did anything for me but give me a monster headache.

I won't argue with you that a nice big bump on the alpha carbon helps a lot...because of course it does. That's why amphetamines are what they are. I will say that IMHO you risk far more than the wrath of the FDA if you try to stick anything on the alpha carbon in a PEA type molecule. Pretty sure DEA is going to consider it a violation of the CSA. Die alpha carbon ist verboten!

Me thinks the best fruit is in looking at tryptamines/quinolones. Most of them aren't going to amount to a hill of beans but there are a few (aside from the obvious, controlled ones like DMT and the oxide and 5-MeOH versions and the lysergic acid homologs) that might be doable and are clearly NOT analogs (and should have a noticeable CNS effect(s) too - not just of the "trippitydoodah" type either!).

They are naturally occurring too just not in anything I can substantiate as a food or in the supplement realm before 10.15.1994! :yuck:
And the ones I can probably make a pretty decent argument for as "found in food" - I like pukateine as a possibility and some of the homologs of glaucine that do not seem to have the "fatigue" effects associated with glaucine.

Pretty sure filing an NDI on any of these is going to be met with a less than enthusiastic response when the chemist at FDA gets a look at
a 2D diagram of what you're playing with though.

There are probably a few that are plausible as non-analogs based on IUPAC naming conventions. And if you speak Mandarin Chinese (or have access to someone who reads/writes it) and look hard enough, you can find a couple of tryptamine/quinolones that are herbal in nature, used in soups (decoctions) and have nice CNS stimulant effects and broncho-dilatory effects.

 

[UrAcGuy]

yeah, its been known for awhile that the phenyl configuration is not necessary to induce considerable adrenergic activity (i.e. propylhexadrine, cyclopentamine, tuaminoheptane).

While these are not phenyl rings, they still are rings. Propylhexedrine is a saturated cyclohexylamine and has been used as a drug to treat nasal congestion. Used to be in those bullet inhalers. I do not think its on the radar yet here but I can't find where its naturally occurring in the food chain either. And since it has been sold as an OTC drug it means its never going to be a dietary ingredient. Basically meth without the alternating double bonds in the ring. Should have a nice stim effect though.

Cyclopentamine is essentially the same as above but with a saturated five sided ring. I don't think its made anymore but again, had been sold as a drug for nasal decongestion which means its unable to be marketed as a dietary ingredient. It's also a bit like meth with alpha and N alkyl groups.

All 3 chemicals (propylhexadrine, cyclopentamine and methamphetamine) contain that 2-methylaminopropyl side-chain, the most notable (IMHO) difference between them is methamphetamine is an aromatic molecule containing a phenyl ring, while cyclopentamine and propylhexedrine are aliphatic and contain no delocalized electrons at all. This has an effect on potency for sure so while you do not need a phenyl or unsaturated ring to see an "effect" for sure the reduced alicyclic-alkylamines are far weaker from a CNS point of view than unsaturated methamphetamine.

Tuaminoheptane and its "cousin" heptaminol are already WADA banned (and both are used as drugs - negating their potential use as a dietary ingredient). Not sure if isometheptene is WADA banned but it is also used as a drug to treat migraines and has a vasoconstrictive effect (and lacks a phenyl or any ring for that matter). It too would be off limits as a dietary ingredient.

Yes, I know you did not claim any of these would make good or legal dietary ingredients.

I still think some of the PEA's have been overlooked though and while you may call them "dirty" or "less than optimally effective" (and for a lot of them I would be inclined to agree with you) they might be some of the few items left to us from a legal perspective.

There are also a couple of prurine derivatives (yeah, totally in another direction here) which are naturally occurring and might be "plausible" dietary ingredients.

No I am not inclined to mention any of them (or PEA's or tryptamines/quinolones) here. Get the Rosetta Stone program folks, learn Chinese, go to China, get a TCM Pharmacognosy text at a local medical school over there ($50) and start mining it for treasure! :fing02:

 

[UrAcGuy]

yes, and there was one comprehensive study that really looked at all that. published in arzneimittel forshung decades ago. it clearly shows the structural requirements for sympathomimetic activity.

There are texts in English that do the same. Your German is far better than mine so 50 year old copies of Arzneimittel journal is probably going to do you a lot more than me (or 90% of the people reading this). There are also Chinese texts that discuss this too. Lucky me!

its interesting, but if you think you are gonna find the next ephedrine or dmaa from the info provided dont get your hopes up. nonetheless, its valuable info

I'd actually agree with you here, Patrick. I'd be pretty shocked if someone came up with anything remotely like ephedrine with both the peripheral and central effects. I see some tryptamines and quinolones that look like they have CNS potential for euphoria and anorexia but I doubt they do much peripherally and the few I am looking into I need to be careful of the analog law as well as potential "hallucinogenic" side effects (as well as nausea). I also do not think there will be anything like geranamine again...so yeah, you get props for being the dude who pulled that into the the dietary supplement market for sure.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

geranamine is still around. ephedrine is still around, you just gotta get it at the pharmacy

so from a consumer point of view everything is still cool

 

[UrAcGuy]

geranamine is still around. ephedrine is still around, you just gotta get it at the pharmacy

so from a consumer point of view everything is still cool

Can you buy ephedrine without guaifenesin at the pharmacy still? I was unaware that you could. I think in Canada they will sell you 8mg ephedrine salt tabs or caps with nothing else but in the states, don't you get "stuck" with that crappy expectorant too? Meh...no thanks.
I can get methamphetamine and amphetamine at the pharmacy too if I have an Rx for it! :sgrin:

Gerrie is still around and will be for awhile. I would stock up on the 25mg caps if you like them since they won't be around forever.
Does Mike Mc. still sell them?

It will be interesting to see what breaks in 2012.

Its amazing how drug laws differ in various countries - I think you can get codeine OTC in Canada (like 8mg again) and I have seen 5mg
codeine phosphate in cough syrup (per 5ml) in China - along with a bunch of other ingredients. You can't buy caffeine tabs in China but codeine is OK. Tramadol used to be - essentially - OTC there too but they had a massive Ultram problem and since fixed that situation.

I have not seen too many stims in China OTC but you can get pretty much any antiobiotic (generic Z-Packs are like $3) or oral corticoid or
pretty much anything if you will sign for it. Since most Americans can't read my signature...I bet most Chinese can't either :smirk:

The funniest thing to me was all over Southern China most Westerners get peppered in market places and malls by people trying to sell you Viagra or Kamagra or whatever PDE-5 inhibitor is in the local pharmacy today. I mean they actually stop you on the street and ask if you want to buy some. I think that is pretty ballsy - its basically like saying, "dude, looks like you can't get it up, want to buy this here stuff that will help?"

It's really bizarre. Caffeine (synthetic) is a big taboo over there and even the Chinese Red Bull does not have any in it that I could see on the label (or by drinking it - its also non-carbonated and tastes like syrup). But I can waltz into any TCM pharmacy and walk out with a pound of dried ma huang "tea" and that's just dandy. No problem.

I especially like their infomercials on CCTV for fat loss products. FTC would tar and feather any of us for making the type of analogies and claims they get away with over there.

 

[ax1]

It's really bizarre. Caffeine (synthetic) is a big taboo over there and even the Chinese Red Bull does not have any in it that I could see on the label (or by drinking it - its also non-carbonated and tastes like syrup). But I can waltz into any TCM pharmacy and walk out with a pound of dried ma huang "tea" and that's just dandy. No problem.

But starbucks is everywhere in Beijing and Shanghai...although the largest size is our medium, its still real coffee at the appropriate potency.

They even have splenda there now, several years back I suffered without it when I ran short.

I love the KFC coffee as well, they have that concentrated instant stuff, but McDonalds they will have coffee pot sitting on the machine for hours, its true terror.

 

[nattydisaster]

I think geranium will be around forever. The same people who said it wasnt actually found in geranium have now basically retracted their statements. But I guess no one goes around posting about it because the forums dont like positive news.

AHPA Clarifies Its Position on the Science Linking DMAA to Geranium Oil; New Research on DMAA in Geranium Reported

SILVER SPRING, Md. (August 11, 2011) -- The American Herbal Products Association (AHPA) recently announced a trade requirement for the labeling of products containing the ingredient 1,3-dimethylamylamine (DMAA).

The trade requirement, which becomes effective on January 13, 2012, requires that AHPA members do not label 1,3-dimethylamylamine, whether identified by this name or any synonym, as geranium oil or as any part of the geranium plant, whether by the common name of geranium or by the botanical name of any plant known as geranium. Nothing in the new requirement prevents labeling of any compound that is in fact derived from geranium plant materials by that compound's common or usual name.

"AHPA's new policy is limited only to labeling of products that contain DMAA as an ingredient," said Michael McGuffin, AHPA's president. "Some news reports have indicated, or appear to indicate, that AHPA has reached the conclusion that DMAA cannot be found in geranium oil. AHPA has reached no such conclusion."

In an August 8 statement to announce this policy, AHPA referenced a review of one published study that reported DMAA as a naturally occurring constituent of the geranium species, Pelargonium spp. In this announcement, AHPA inadvertently stated that there are no known-published reports indicating that DMAA is a natural product. This was a misstatement since the announcement noted the study, by Pinget al. (Ping Z, Jun Q, Qing L. A study on the chemical constituents of geranium oil.Journal of Guizhou Institute of Technology 1996;25:82-85), which identified the presence of DMAA in geranium.

In the interim, AHPA has been informed by an analytical chemist and an AHPA member that they have initiated new research on the chemistry of geranium. Both have reported that their preliminary results indicate the presence of DMAA, and some effort to validate these results is now planned.
​

 

[mattrag]

I think geranium will be around forever. The same people who said it wasnt actually found in geranium have now basically retracted their statements. But I guess no one goes around posting about it because the forums dont like positive news.

AHPA Clarifies Its Position on the Science Linking DMAA to Geranium Oil; New Research on DMAA in Geranium Reported

SILVER SPRING, Md. (August 11, 2011) -- The American Herbal Products Association (AHPA) recently announced a trade requirement for the labeling of products containing the ingredient 1,3-dimethylamylamine (DMAA).

The trade requirement, which becomes effective on January 13, 2012, requires that AHPA members do not label 1,3-dimethylamylamine, whether identified by this name or any synonym, as geranium oil or as any part of the geranium plant, whether by the common name of geranium or by the botanical name of any plant known as geranium. Nothing in the new requirement prevents labeling of any compound that is in fact derived from geranium plant materials by that compound's common or usual name.

"AHPA's new policy is limited only to labeling of products that contain DMAA as an ingredient," said Michael McGuffin, AHPA's president. "Some news reports have indicated, or appear to indicate, that AHPA has reached the conclusion that DMAA cannot be found in geranium oil. AHPA has reached no such conclusion."

In an August 8 statement to announce this policy, AHPA referenced a review of one published study that reported DMAA as a naturally occurring constituent of the geranium species, Pelargonium spp. In this announcement, AHPA inadvertently stated that there are no known-published reports indicating that DMAA is a natural product. This was a misstatement since the announcement noted the study, by Pinget al. (Ping Z, Jun Q, Qing L. A study on the chemical constituents of geranium oil.Journal of Guizhou Institute of Technology 1996;25:82-85), which identified the presence of DMAA in geranium.

In the interim, AHPA has been informed by an analytical chemist and an AHPA member that they have initiated new research on the chemistry of geranium. Both have reported that their preliminary results indicate the presence of DMAA, and some effort to validate these results is now planned.
​

This is great news!!

lower dose 1,3 is great! 60mgs is horrible for me, but @ around 20mgs it gives me that intense focus and appetite suppression! I was thinking I was going to order to stock up lol.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Can you buy ephedrine without guaifenesin at the pharmacy still? I was unaware that you could. I think in Canada they will sell you 8mg ephedrine salt tabs or caps with nothing else but in the states, don't you get "stuck" with that crappy expectorant too? Meh...no thanks.
I can get methamphetamine and amphetamine at the pharmacy too if I have an Rx for it! :sgrin:

Gerrie is still around and will be for awhile. I would stock up on the 25mg caps if you like them since they won't be around forever.
Does Mike Mc. still sell them?

It will be interesting to see what breaks in 2012.

Its amazing how drug laws differ in various countries - I think you can get codeine OTC in Canada (like 8mg again) and I have seen 5mg
codeine phosphate in cough syrup (per 5ml) in China - along with a bunch of other ingredients. You can't buy caffeine tabs in China but codeine is OK. Tramadol used to be - essentially - OTC there too but they had a massive Ultram problem and since fixed that situation.

I have not seen too many stims in China OTC but you can get pretty much any antiobiotic (generic Z-Packs are like $3) or oral corticoid or
pretty much anything if you will sign for it. Since most Americans can't read my signature...I bet most Chinese can't either :smirk:

The funniest thing to me was all over Southern China most Westerners get peppered in market places and malls by people trying to sell you Viagra or Kamagra or whatever PDE-5 inhibitor is in the local pharmacy today. I mean they actually stop you on the street and ask if you want to buy some. I think that is pretty ballsy - its basically like saying, "dude, looks like you can't get it up, want to buy this here stuff that will help?"

It's really bizarre. Caffeine (synthetic) is a big taboo over there and even the Chinese Red Bull does not have any in it that I could see on the label (or by drinking it - its also non-carbonated and tastes like syrup). But I can waltz into any TCM pharmacy and walk out with a pound of dried ma huang "tea" and that's just dandy. No problem.

I especially like their infomercials on CCTV for fat loss products. FTC would tar and feather any of us for making the type of analogies and claims they get away with over there.

the amount of guafenisin u get from 12.5mg primatene tablet should not be a problem for most people

please try to trim your posts down and stay on topic. i know you are a wealth of info. of all sorts but for the sake of the conversation here u need some more focus or everyone just gets overwhelmed

 

[Powercage]

it is a new ingredient in driven sports' craze
five ingredients here:
Dendrobine, Dendroxine, Dendramine, B-Phenylethylamine, N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamince, And N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine

Awesome. Thank you for this cutting edge information.

 

[oufinny]

I think geranium will be around forever. The same people who said it wasnt actually found in geranium have now basically retracted their statements. But I guess no one goes around posting about it because the forums dont like positive news.

AHPA Clarifies Its Position on the Science Linking DMAA to Geranium Oil; New Research on DMAA in Geranium Reported

SILVER SPRING, Md. (August 11, 2011) -- The American Herbal Products Association (AHPA) recently announced a trade requirement for the labeling of products containing the ingredient 1,3-dimethylamylamine (DMAA).

The trade requirement, which becomes effective on January 13, 2012, requires that AHPA members do not label 1,3-dimethylamylamine, whether identified by this name or any synonym, as geranium oil or as any part of the geranium plant, whether by the common name of geranium or by the botanical name of any plant known as geranium. Nothing in the new requirement prevents labeling of any compound that is in fact derived from geranium plant materials by that compound's common or usual name.

"AHPA's new policy is limited only to labeling of products that contain DMAA as an ingredient," said Michael McGuffin, AHPA's president. "Some news reports have indicated, or appear to indicate, that AHPA has reached the conclusion that DMAA cannot be found in geranium oil. AHPA has reached no such conclusion."

In an August 8 statement to announce this policy, AHPA referenced a review of one published study that reported DMAA as a naturally occurring constituent of the geranium species, Pelargonium spp. In this announcement, AHPA inadvertently stated that there are no known-published reports indicating that DMAA is a natural product. This was a misstatement since the announcement noted the study, by Pinget al. (Ping Z, Jun Q, Qing L. A study on the chemical constituents of geranium oil.Journal of Guizhou Institute of Technology 1996;25:82-85), which identified the presence of DMAA in geranium.

In the interim, AHPA has been informed by an analytical chemist and an AHPA member that they have initiated new research on the chemistry of geranium. Both have reported that their preliminary results indicate the presence of DMAA, and some effort to validate these results is now planned.
​

I don't think the FDA got the memo. Just like they didn't with Ephedra. Just because people abuse something does not mean those that don't shouldn't get it. It isn't even the ephedra that raises BP, it is the addition of synthetic caffeine but we can't take that away from a nation in love with it. Happy to see this is getting discussed and maybe if we are lucky it will hang around. I need to grab another bottle of these caps, it is a favorite with some caffeine and methyl-synephrine.