mr.cooper69
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I'm impatient. My research has showed nothing lol. Thoughts PA?
very interesting stuff here.I wonder who is going to be the first to give this stuff a go?I'm impatient. My research has showed nothing lol. Thoughts PA?
tell me why you find this interesting. be specificvery interesting stuff here.I wonder who is going to be the first to give this stuff a go?
I imagine (not to speak for him) it's geared towards being a replacement for 1,3?tell me why you find this interesting. be specific
I imagine (not to speak for him) it's geared towards being a replacement for 1,3?
Lol, that was posed in the form of a question not a declaration. I defer to you...(FYI I enjoy your emotive "Jersey" reaction to every question posed )why would it be a replacement for 1,3?
And if you say "cuz its in there formula" then i am leaving this board
Couldn't improving night vision also have to do with upregulation of various enzymes (PDE) in the eye. There's a lot of variables that I would not necessarily shoot down it's effects on the CNS.it seems to be used in chinese medicine to improve night vision. my guess is its an anti-cholinergic like atropine
that has nothing to do with 1,3 or CNS stimulation.
Couldn't improving night vision also have to do with upregulation of various enzymes (PDE) in the eye. There's a lot of variables that I would not necessarily shoot down it's effects on the CNS.
Read this. seems to suggest its an anti- anti-cholinergic. which would make it a cholinergic. and the second reference seems to suggest classic cholinergic effects.Couldn't improving night vision also have to do with upregulation of various enzymes (PDE) in the eye. There's a lot of variables that I would not necessarily shoot down it's effects on the CNS.
Lol, the reason I thought it was interesting was because it was a compound I never heard of before (can't even find the lewis structure) that seems to be a novel ingredient in Driven Sports Craze, which has gotten lots of positive feedback for focus and energy. I understand how the other ingredients in the formula work, but this one seemed totally novel. But why would we want an anti-cholinergic preworkout?
My bad, I read your post as anti-cholinergic, not anti-anti-cholinergic. Yeah I agree, we also see Huperzine A in tons of preworkouts so I'm not exactly sure what the point is. DS hasn't disappointed me yet though so I'll probably give it a shotu might want a cholinergic preworkout. but if they wanted to put a cholinergic in there they coulda put galanthamine in or something. maybe it was put in there simply to look mysterious? Maybe Bruce Kneller suckered them into buying the stuff from his under the table chinese supply biz. Kneller used to put mysterious chinese herbs in the GN products that were probably little more than label dresswing
I haven't heard that name in awhile.yea finding anything on this stuff was a huge pain in the ass luckily science direct is pretty easy to use as well as good ole google.u might want a cholinergic preworkout. but if they wanted to put a cholinergic in there they coulda put galanthamine in or something. maybe it was put in there simply to look mysterious? Maybe Bruce Kneller suckered them into buying the stuff from his under the table chinese supply biz. Kneller used to put mysterious chinese herbs in the GN products that were probably little more than label dresswing
actually i am confused. cuz they say its a cure for night blindness which would indicate anti-cholinergic. but all the other evidence suggests its a cholinergic. whatever it is, i dont see an iota of evidence that it serves a purpose in a workout powderMy bad, I read your post as anti-cholinergic, not anti-anti-cholinergic. Yeah I agree, we also see Huperzine A in tons of preworkouts so I'm not exactly sure what the point is. DS hasn't disappointed me yet though so I'll probably give it a shot
I haven't heard that name in awhile.yea finding anything on this stuff was a huge pain in the ass luckily science direct is pretty easy to use as well as good ole google.
seems like your urbc product is fairing quite well.What I like is the fact you test your product on yourself as well.I'm currently working on something myself which I hope pans out as it would be quite a nice item that could be used for a host of things though it def takes patience doing all the ground work with these things.
but back on topic very very interesting item here I'm sure the chinese have figured out all sorts of uses for items we wouldn't even think to believe to be usable in ways other then which they are normally used for.
Thats totally wrong, were you kidding right? lolbut they dont have bodybuilders in china.
actually i wasnt. am i wrong? i thought they all did tai chi over there. granted i aint never been thereThats totally wrong, were you kidding right? lol
They have bodybuilding contests and everything. Ive seen some really impressive bodybuilders in person there in Beijing and Shanghai at the at a couple of the main gyms. Nothing like some of these roid heads in the USA and Europe, but very impressive bodybuilders.actually i wasnt. am i wrong? i thought they all did tai chi over there. granted i aint never been there
I know its wrong but I lol'edbut they dont have bodybuilders in china.
Well at least dendramine is potentially compliant with DHSEA 1994 while geranamine? Who knows?why would it be a replacement for 1,3?
And if you say "cuz its in there formula" then i am leaving this board
They've released the formula but not the full write up, which I figure is why people are asking you, to try to get a idea of what the ingredients do before the write up is released.What is the justification for the stuff in the formula? Does DS provide one?
post some abstractsPA,
Was wondering if while you're here if you might want to finally comment on some of the "lesser known" potential issues with urosolic acid?
Forget the sperm issues everyone all over the internet is chatting up because ursolic acid induces sterility better than malathion does. How about the yards of literature about urosolic acid as a nice adjuvant in cancer treatment for its effects on vascular endothelial growth factor (it's an anti-VEGF substance apparently) and matrix metalloproteinase? Or its effects on IL-17? Seems to do a nice job on TNF-alpha and E-selectin as well as suppressing white blood cells like T-cells. Maybe you can co-pack it out with gemcitabine? :naughty: So much for being big and vascular, eh?
TIA!
:hijacked:
Current position:Home > Products >[h=1]7668-75-9[/h]post some abstracts
stuff you point out sounds mostly like good things
tnf-alpha, e-selectin, t-cell activation are all a part of the inflammatory response. something we want to suppress as much as possible. you insinuate that this is all a bad thing? it is in fact a very positive benefit.
and i dont really think VEGF has much relevance to the bodybuilder but if you can show me otherwise go ahead. its really something that comes up in cancer research for the most part
matrix metalloproteinases are very catabolic substances. suppressing them is a wonderful thing.
now lets get back to the topic at hand
there is some evidence dendrobine blocks inotropic glycine receptors (a la strychnine), and could provide (in low doses) a mild stimulatory effect (a la caffeine)
should be fairly toxic in large doses
Since you asked to be shown abstracts...:sad6:post some abstracts
stuff you point out sounds mostly like good things
tnf-alpha, e-selectin, t-cell activation are all a part of the inflammatory response. something we want to suppress as much as possible. you insinuate that this is all a bad thing? it is in fact a very positive benefit.
and i dont really think VEGF has much relevance to the bodybuilder but if you can show me otherwise go ahead. its really something that comes up in cancer research for the most part
matrix metalloproteinases are very catabolic substances. suppressing them is a wonderful thing.
now lets get back to the topic at hand
thats what i meant, obviously because we were talking about inflammation. and i meant suppress tnf-alpha and e-selectin as wellSince you asked to be shown abstracts...:sad6:
Ursolic Acid suppresses T-Cell Activation, not stimulates it PA!
Since you asked to be shown abstracts...:sad6:
Ursolic Acid suppresses T-Cell Activation, not stimulates it PA!
Chin J Integr Med. 2011 Oct 12.
Ursolic acid inhibits T-cell activation through modulating nuclear factor-κ B signaling.
Zeng G, Chen J, Liang QH, You WH, Wu HJ, Xiong XG.
Source
Institute of Integrative Medicine, Xiangya Hospital, Central South University, Changsha, 410008, China.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To investigate the effects of ursolic acid (UA) on T-cell proliferation and activation, as well as to examine its effect on nuclear factor-κB (NF-κB) signaling pathway in T cells.
METHODS:
T-cells isolated from BALB/c mice were incubated with UA at concentrations ranging from 5-30 μmol/L in the presence of phorbol 12-myristate 13-acetate (PMA) or PMA plus ionomycin. The proliferation of T cells was measured by the MTT assay. The expressions of CD69, CD25, and CD71 on T-cell surface were analyzed using flow cytometry. The level of interleukin-2 (IL-2) in the culture supernatant of activated T cells was quantified by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA). The level of phosphorylated IκB-α (p-IκB-α) in total protein and p65, a subunit of NF-κB, nuclear translocation were measured by Western blot analysis.
RESULTS:
UA in a dose-dependent manner significantly decreased the proliferation and inhibited the surface expressions of CD69, CD25, and CD71 in murine T lymphocytes upon in vitro activation (P <0.01). Significant reduction of IL-2 production was found in activated T cells treated with UA (P<0.01). The PMA-induced increase in p-IκB-α protein was inhibited, and nuclear translocation of p65 from the cytoplasm was blocked by UA.
CONCLUSION:
UA is a potent inhibitor for T cell activation and proliferation; these effects are associated with the inhibition of NF-κB signaling pathway.
I am not sure you completely understand the relevance of much of what you posted. If the stuff is making mice grow larger muscle tissues, functional muscle tissues, then obviously the findings on VEGF dont have much relevance to healthy organisms and muscle tissue. it is easy to cherry pick studies and take them out of context if your goal is more to scare people away from a competitors product rather than to elucidate any truthSince you asked to be shown abstracts...:sad6:
Ursolic Acid suppresses T-Cell Activation, not stimulates it PA!
Chin J Integr Med. 2011 Oct 12.
Ursolic acid inhibits T-cell activation through modulating nuclear factor-κ B signaling.
Zeng G, Chen J, Liang QH, You WH, Wu HJ, Xiong XG.
Source
Institute of Integrative Medicine, Xiangya Hospital, Central South University, Changsha, 410008, China.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To investigate the effects of ursolic acid (UA) on T-cell proliferation and activation, as well as to examine its effect on nuclear factor-κB (NF-κB) signaling pathway in T cells.
METHODS:
T-cells isolated from BALB/c mice were incubated with UA at concentrations ranging from 5-30 μmol/L in the presence of phorbol 12-myristate 13-acetate (PMA) or PMA plus ionomycin. The proliferation of T cells was measured by the MTT assay. The expressions of CD69, CD25, and CD71 on T-cell surface were analyzed using flow cytometry. The level of interleukin-2 (IL-2) in the culture supernatant of activated T cells was quantified by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA). The level of phosphorylated IκB-α (p-IκB-α) in total protein and p65, a subunit of NF-κB, nuclear translocation were measured by Western blot analysis.
RESULTS:
UA in a dose-dependent manner significantly decreased the proliferation and inhibited the surface expressions of CD69, CD25, and CD71 in murine T lymphocytes upon in vitro activation (P <0.01). Significant reduction of IL-2 production was found in activated T cells treated with UA (P<0.01). The PMA-induced increase in p-IκB-α protein was inhibited, and nuclear translocation of p65 from the cytoplasm was blocked by UA.
CONCLUSION:
UA is a potent inhibitor for T cell activation and proliferation; these effects are associated with the inhibition of NF-κB signaling pathway.
J Altern Complement Med. 2004 Jun;10(3):519-26.
Yin zi huang, an injectable multicomponent chinese herbal medicine, is a potent inhibitor of T-cell activation.
Chen X, Krakauer T, Oppenheim JJ, Howard OM.
Source
Basic Research Program, SAIC-Frederick, Inc., National Cancer Institute-Frederick, Frederick, MD 21702-1201, USA.
Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
The clinical efficacy of many multiherbal Traditional Chinese Medicines (TCM) is partially attributable to their immunoregulatory properties. In this study we evaluated the effect of eight commonly used, commercially available multiherbal Chinese medicines on T-cell activation. We focused on Yin Zhi Huang (YZH, an injectable herbal medicine commonly used for the treatment of liver diseases in China), because it was the most potent inhibitor of T-cell activation in our experimental system. The effects of 10 ingredient components of YZH were also evaluated.
METHODS:
[3H] thymidine incorporation assay was used to assess mouse T-cell proliferation after stimulation with latex beads coated with anti-CD3/CD28 antibodies. CD25, CD69, PD-1, and I-COS expression by purified mouse CD4+ T cells treated with plate-bound anti-CD3 antibody and soluble anti-CD28 antibody was analyzed by fluorescent-activated cell sorter (FACS). Cytokine/chemokine production by human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC) stimulated with staphylococcal enterotoxin B (SEB) was determined by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA).
RESULTS:
Among tested herbal medicines, YZH was the most potent inhibitor of T-cell activation. In splenocyte proliferation assays, the inhibitory effect of YZH was dose-dependent, with a 50% inhibition concentration (IC50) of 1:3200-1:1600. Ten (10) purified compounds found in YZH were evaluated for their activity. Among them, ursolic acid (1-10 micromol), luteolin (1-10 micromol), baicalein (1-10 micromol), scopran (5-50 micromol), and crocin (5-50 micromol), exhibited dose-dependent inhibition. YZH also inhibited CD25, CD69, PD-1, and ICOS expression by stimulated mouse CD4+ T cells. In human PBMCs, YZH inhibited SEB-stimulated cytokine (interleukin [IL]-1, IL-2, IL-6, tumor necrosis factor[TNF]-alpha, interferon [IFN]-gamma) and chemokine (IP-10, MCP-1, MIP-1alpha and MIP-1beta) production in a dose-dependent manner.
CONCLUSION:
Our data show for the first time that YZH is a potent inhibitor of T-cell activation, and this property may be the major mechanism underlying the clinical efficacy of YZH. Our experimental results pave the way for identification of active component(s) and/or analysis of synergistic/additive effect of a YZH ingredient in future studies.
Now these were in vitro studies using mice T-cells so people should not automatically assume this will happen in humans. The second study also has multiple components used and not just Ursolic Acid. However, it is a red flag and something that should make people ask more questions.
The study below also seems to show some different, undesirable potential side effects concerning Ursolic Acid.
Ursolic Acid also seems to be an atherosclerotic in vitro at least as well as toxic to endothelial cells, damaging DNA.
Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22.
Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo.
Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
Source
Cardiac Surgery, Research Laboratories, Department of Surgery, Medical University of Vienna, Vienna, Austria.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The plant derived triterpene ursolic acid (UA) has been intensively studied in the past; mainly as an anti-cancer compound and for its cardiovascular protective properties. Based on the controversy of reports suggesting anti-angiogenic and cytotoxic effects of UA on one side and cardiovascular and endothelial protective effects on the other side, we decided to assess UA effects on primary human endothelial cells in vitro and atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo.
METHODS AND RESULTS:
Our in vitro analyses clearly show that UA inhibits endothelial proliferation and is a potent inducer of endothelial cell death. UA causes DNA-damage, followed by the activation of a P53-, BAK-, and caspase-dependent cell-death pathway. Oral application of UA in APO E knockout mice potently stimulated atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo, which was correlated with decreased serum levels of the athero-protective cytokine IL-5.
CONCLUSIONS:
Due the potent endothelial cell death inducing activity of UA, a systemic application of UA in the treatment of cardiovascular diseases seems unfavourable. UA as an anti-angiogenesis, anti-cancer and - locally applied - cardiovascular drug may be helpful. The DNA damaging activity of UA may however constitute a serious problem.
Again, this is in vitro. But this time human endothelial cells were used. That's a little more damning. Endothelial cells line blood vessels but also your intestines, skin, etc. The potential DNA damaging aspects are also worrisome, PA. Especially the authors conclusion of, "The DNA damaging activity of UA may however constitute a serious problem."
VEGF is important in angiogenesis. Maybe this is important if you grow new muscle tissue? Wouldn't you need new capillaries to feed the new muscles oxygen and other nutrients?
Integr Cancer Ther. 2010 Jun;9(2):224-35.
Antiangiogenic activity of ursolic acid.
Kanjoormana M, Kuttan G.
Source
Department of Immunology, Amala Cancer Research Centre, Amala Nagar, Thrissur, Kerala, India. [email protected]
Abstract
Angiogenesis, the formation of new capillaries from preexisting vessels, is essential for tumor progression. Ursolic acid inhibited the tumor-associated capillary formation in C57BL/6 mice induced by highly metastatic B16F-10 melanoma cells. The levels of serum vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), NO, and proinflammatory cytokines were significantly reduced in ursolic acid-treated animals compared with those in control animals. The diminished expressions of VEGF and iNOS genes in B16F-10 melanoma cells treated with nontoxic concentrations of ursolic acid support these observations; the serum TIMP-1 (tissue inhibitor of metalloproteinase-1) and IL-2 (interleukin-2) levels were significantly elevated after the ursolic acid treatment. Nontoxic concentrations of ursolic acid toward human umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVEC) were determined by MTT (methylthiazol tetrazolium) assay, and these nontoxic concentrations were selected for the in vitro studies. Nontoxic concentrations of ursolic acid inhibited vessel growth from the rat aortic ring. (3)H-thymidine proliferation assay clearly showed the inhibitory effect of ursolic acid on the proliferation of HUVECs in vitro. Ursolic acid significantly inhibited endothelial cell migration and invasion. The role of metalloproteinases has been shown to be important in angiogenesis; therefore, gelatin zymography was performed to determine whether ursolic acid affected protease activity. Gelatin zymographic analysis showed the inhibitory effect of ursolic acid on the protein expression of matrix metalloproteinases MMP-2 and MMP-9. The above observation shows the antiangiogenic activity of ursolic acid.
I am not sure inhibiting MMP's are a good thing like you wrote, PA. If they are needed to form new blood vessels wouldn't
inhibiting them possibly inhibit the growth of new blood vessels. How is this a good thing?
The above study was also in vitro but it also used human endothelial cells as did the one below.
Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2004 Jul 23;320(2):402-8.
Effects of ursolic acid on different steps of the angiogenic process.
Cárdenas C, Quesada AR, Medina MA.
Source
Central Culture Cell Service, University of Málaga, Spain.
Abstract
Ursolic acid is a triterpenoid with pleiotropic biological effects. In this report, we study the effects of ursolic acid on different key steps of angiogenesis. Our results show that ursolic acid is able to inhibit key steps of angiogenesis in vitro, including endothelial cell proliferation, migration, and differentiation. At the same time, it seems to stimulate other key steps of angiogenesis, such as extracellular matrix degradation by MMP-2 and urokinase. Although ursolic acid can inhibit in vivo angiogenesis in the CAM assay, the different signs of the effects it causes on different steps of angiogenesis force one to be cautious concerning its anti-angiogenic potential.
None of this means Ursolic Acid is dangerous for people to use. To me it means Ursolic Acid needs more clinical studies conducted on it. Then we can see what it really does for muscle growth as well as inhibiting blood vessels growth and possible DNA damage.
But people should be made aware of the potential negative studies regarding it as well as the potential positive studies. This allows people to make a more educated choice before deciding to use or not use a product.
I am sure you would agree with this sentiment.
- UrAcGuy
The study below also seems to show some different, undesirable potential side effects concerning Ursolic Acid.
Ursolic Acid also seems to be an atherosclerotic in vitro at least as well as toxic to endothelial cells, damaging DNA.
Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22.
Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo.
Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
Source
Cardiac Surgery, Research Laboratories, Department of Surgery, Medical University of Vienna, Vienna, Austria.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The plant derived triterpene ursolic acid (UA) has been intensively studied in the past; mainly as an anti-cancer compound and for its cardiovascular protective properties. Based on the controversy of reports suggesting anti-angiogenic and cytotoxic effects of UA on one side and cardiovascular and endothelial protective effects on the other side, we decided to assess UA effects on primary human endothelial cells in vitro and atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo.
METHODS AND RESULTS:
Our in vitro analyses clearly show that UA inhibits endothelial proliferation and is a potent inducer of endothelial cell death. UA causes DNA-damage, followed by the activation of a P53-, BAK-, and caspase-dependent cell-death pathway. Oral application of UA in APO E knockout mice potently stimulated atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo, which was correlated with decreased serum levels of the athero-protective cytokine IL-5.
CONCLUSIONS:
Due the potent endothelial cell death inducing activity of UA, a systemic application of UA in the treatment of cardiovascular diseases seems unfavourable. UA as an anti-angiogenesis, anti-cancer and - locally applied - cardiovascular drug may be helpful. The DNA damaging activity of UA may however constitute a serious problem.
Again, this is in vitro. But this time human endothelial cells were used. That's a little more damning. Endothelial cells line blood vessels but also your intestines, skin, etc. The potential DNA damaging aspects are also worrisome, PA. Especially the authors conclusion of, "The DNA damaging activity of UA may however constitute a serious problem."
My goal is to make sure that people see as much of the data as possible. So, I don't see why you had to resort to polite insults?I am not sure you completely understand the relevance of much of what you posted. If the stuff is making mice grow larger muscle tissues, functional muscle tissues, then obviously the findings on VEGF dont have much relevance to healthy organisms and muscle tissue. it is easy to cherry pick studies and take them out of context if your goal is more to scare people away from a competitors product rather than to elucidate any truth
No, I choose to say that more data is needed and people should be aware of all data, good or bad. That is all I am saying.you chose to ignore a NEWER article published in the EXACT SAME JOURNAL which shows CONTRADICTORY evidence in regards to atherosclerosis. I dont think it was an innocent oversight either.
You're correct. Let's keep this thread about Dendrobium nobile.if you want to discuss ursolic anymore Ac guy start a new thread. This has gone off topic long enough. thank you
At the same time, Patrick does not have to put all the time and energy into Ursolic Acid if he thought it was illegitimate. He has the ability to run with something else that is known to work and cash in on it. It's possible I may be wrong (although I dont think so,) but I believe the reasoning of his time and energy into Ursolic Acid is because he genuinely believes in it based on his research. He didn't have to continue on and produce his product.Look PA, your goal is to make people think ursolic acid is a great compound for a dietary supplement because you have a product with ursolic acid in it. I'd say you have a conflict there and a motivation to suppress any potentially negative findings concerning ursolic acid rather than elucidating any truth, PA. Not the other way around. Cherry picking? It's just as easy for someone to say that you cherry picked the two studies on mice that support your product purpose.
--UrAcGuy
I'd just like to make it absolutely clear that we do not buy materials from BK nor did he have anything to do with this product in any way shape or form.u might want a cholinergic preworkout. but if they wanted to put a cholinergic in there they coulda put galanthamine in or something. maybe it was put in there simply to look mysterious? Maybe Bruce Kneller suckered them into buying the stuff from his under the table chinese supply biz. Kneller used to put mysterious chinese herbs in the GN products that were probably little more than label dresswing
Considering he has 7 posts, I just glance over his posts until he gets some cred around here. Sure that may be a bit condescending but I don't have time for some newbie questioning an expert.At the same time, Patrick does not have to put all the time and energy into Ursolic Acid if he thought it was illegitimate. He has the ability to run with something else that is known to work and cash in on it. It's possible I may be wrong (although I dont think so,) but I believe the reasoning of his time and energy into Ursolic Acid is because he genuinely believes in it based on his research. He didn't have to continue on and produce his product.
His track record and history cannot be ignored...but if your skeptical its your right to be so, unless you have your own personal agenda..really, nobody knows who you are, do we?
My goal is to make sure that people see as much of the data as possible. So, I don't see why you had to resort to polite insults?
And I disagree with your broad statement that "...obviously the findings on VEGF dont have much relevance to healthy organisms and muscle tissue." You do not know this. Many of the studies were conducted using ursolic acid were done on healthy cells which became quite unhealthy when exposed to ursolic acid.
Mice are not always great models for what happens in people, good or bad, but I see you use that as a marketing tool anyhow too. People should be made aware of all the data concerning it. More research is clearly needed. The two studies you cited would have been better if the scientists looked into interleukin and cytokine expression and MMP-2/MMP-8 levels. The effects on VEGF and angiogenesis should have been looked at and noted in the publication.
Curiously absent from those two studies were androgenic hormone level assays. You reference ursolic acid as an aromatase inhibitor which it is weakly in vitro. I think its about forty times less potent than formestane?
If this were true and there was an aromatase inhibiting effect then its a good thing for men and an added benefit to ursolic acid for men. Just seems very odd that none of this or the angiogenic markers were assayed.
Look PA, your goal is to make people think ursolic acid is a great compound for a dietary supplement because you have a product with ursolic acid in it. I'd say you have a conflict there and a motivation to suppress any potentially negative findings concerning ursolic acid rather than elucidating any truth, PA. Not the other way around. Cherry picking? It's just as easy for someone to say that you cherry picked the two studies on mice that support your product purpose.
DNA damage is not something that might be seen immediately either but certainly is concerning. T-cell suppression is not a good thing either.
The verdict is still out on ursolic acid. I'm sorry that this makes you upset and unhappy. But it is still factual.
--UrAcGuy
please delete this one too moderatorNo, I choose to say that more data is needed and people should be aware of all data, good or bad. That is all I am saying.
You are the one making paranoid inferences.
You're correct. Let's keep this thread about Dendrobium nobile.
PA, did you know this plant has been used to increase and maintain energy levels, especially post-coital energy levels in people? It also has shown some neuroprotective effects in mammals and some positive effects regarding memory.
I'd say this has at least some potential based on these findings and indications. Certainly as a pre-workout stimulant. Sex could be equated to working out! :fing02:
--UrAcGuy
you didnt say "not that it would be a bad thing"......I'd just like to make it absolutely clear that we do not buy materials from BK nor did he have anything to do with this product in any way shape or form.
Carry on.
And then some. There is a study in the Chengdu University of Traditional Chinese Medicine's (成都中医药大学) Journal of Pharmacognosy that goes into great detail about the prosexual effects of Dendrobine (金钗石斛含石斛碱), Dendramine (石斛胺), & Nobilonine (石斛次碱) and their purported abilities to "help you keep the yang up" if you know what I mean, PA. So maybe it won't wash your laundry but you might have to do your laundry after ingesting one of these guys.i bet is suppresses "ill wind" and balances yin and yang too. but will it wash my laundry?