Augmatine

[BBB]

Agmatine

Doc,

What is your opinion on the daily use of agmatine? MAN promotes it as the "Holy Grail" of bodybuilding supplements. I also know you have researched it extensively. I have tried it and I can't say it did much for me but I only used one bottle. It may need to be used for a longer period to exert it's overall effects. Moreover, it doesn't get a lot of love on the bodybuilding forums.

 

[dinoiii]

You know, when I worked intermittently on projects for MAN, Joey Rodriguez (company owner at the time) said he intended to make a product centered on the ingredient Agmatine (a polyamine by-product of arginine metabolism), but he alongside many before him had no idea how the hell to market it or whether or not there was any validity. With a lot of discussion with the guys from the original research teams, we just had no idea what level of oral bioavailability would exist - and we STILL DON'T, so it is very likely that 100% of products on the market containing this ingredient are GROSSLY underdosed. I have done many experiments with people taking in up to 5 grams per day, with some suggested benefits - one in particular is the glucose disposable power which made R-ALA a natural combination for the original product launch of Blue Print back in late 2006 / early 2007. For the average 70kg man, an effective dose seemed to be around 1000mg (hence the original dosing we used that kind of started where people were using it in their formulas)...although one has to TRULY know how to best employ GDA supplements to actually see ergogenic benefit - the same can just as easily be suggested for pro-testosterone agents, and how any (if any at all) of these agents would either impact aesthetics or athletics. That said, the average bodybuilder is NOT 70kg and likely requires much more than this dose unfortunately (at the time it was very expensive to source the ingredient as we were the first to market with it, but since the price has dropped dramatically), but still - he too would have to best understand how to employ it in a body composition effort. It's not always the easiest to do.

I am going to re-post the Agmatine slide show here in full so we can discuss some of the benefits in full.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Author's Note: Originally posted February 21, 2007. I had a big part in the research and marketing campaign of MAN Blue Print featuring Agmatine sulfate. I have focused on the mechanisms that look the most promising for bodybuilding application and verified much of the information with Agmatine researchers (some of which was conversational).
As there is even contradicting research on this compound due to all of the mechanisms included, I have attempted to focus on the most widely accepted and suggested information. Any and all questions will hopefully follow on here in a succinct place. I am also going to put together a Q&A based on some questions already received. This is under constant peer-review, so what you see may be changed intermittently. Any spelling/gramatical errors...I apologize for in advance.
That said, I have worked with some of the very researchers that have been virtual leaders in the past and am trying to work out an interview with them for some time in the future. Without further adieu...

 

[dinoiii]

 

[dinoiii]

 

[dinoiii]

 

[dinoiii]

 

[dinoiii]

Or the abbreviated Cliffs Notes slides that I think were already posted here.

Author's Note: I have had a lot of the non-scientist crowd asking that I offer up an alternative piece, so I have opted to update with a Cliffs Notes version here.

 

[dinoiii]

I will leave this for a little bit before I comment further as I am curious what questions might arise in the interim.


Also, if a moderator or someone can change the title of the thread to read "Agmatine" instead of "Augmatine"


Thanks,


D_

 

[Sourdough]

sub'd for future info.. when will part 2 be posted? interested in what to take this with to optimize effects?

 

[Ev52]

Interested to read more info...

 

[Jahcuree]

agree

 

[T-Bone]

Skimmed through it, looks like good stuff. Looking for part 2 though.

 

[stxnas]

^^^Me too!

 

[AutoKal47]

Just picked 50gr of Agmatine, hence, I sub
and post a quick question:

I read about the synergy with ALA, i've never used regular ALA before, only Na-Rala
what's the difference in dosage between the two?
For example 250mg of Na-Rala = ???mg of ALA

 

[dinoiii]

Just picked 50gr of Agmatine, hence, I sub
and post a quick question:

I read about the synergy with ALA, i've never used regular ALA before, only Na-Rala
what's the difference in dosage between the two?
For example 250mg of Na-Rala = ???mg of ALA

??? = ~ 500mg racemic mixture ALA (R-ALA:S-ALA of about 1:1)


D_

 

[mattrag]

subbed for more info

 

[MAxximal]

Agmatine Stimulates Hepatic Fatty Acid Oxidation

what did you think use Agmatine on low carb diet?

 

[RipdnTxs]

What are your thoughts on someone using this who is also taking BP meds, is there a chance of it could drive a person Hypotensive ????

 

[sirlordford]

??? = ~ 500mg racemic mixture ALA (R-ALA:S-ALA of about 1:1)


D_

How much of it is the salt?

 

[Ev52]

In NA-rala 300mg has 60mg of salt leaving 240mg of r-lipoic acid

 

[dinoiii]

what did you think use Agmatine on low carb diet?

I like it?!? (unsure what more you are seeking with this)

What are your thoughts on someone using this who is also taking BP meds, is there a chance of it could drive a person Hypotensive ????

I suppose in a hypothetical case...perhaps, but autoregulation of the vasculature likely won't allow someone to go significantly hypotensive; and I haven't heard of anything in almost 5 years of use with the compound in various individuals. What Rx are you taking - if you don't mind me asking?



D_

 

[AutoKal47]

Originally Posted by MAxximal
what did you think use Agmatine on low carb diet?

I like it?!? (unsure what more you are seeking with this)

D_

What about dosing/timing when in low carb doc?

 

[RipdnTxs]

I take Telmisartan, 80 mg and Atenol 12.5 mg daily...

 

[dinoiii]

I take Telmisartan, 80 mg and Atenol 12.5 mg daily...

Well, I am unaware of interactions with ARBs or Beta-Blockers, although I am not necessarily a fan of atenolol in the first place:
When compared to placebo for the treatment of hypertension (4 trials with about 3,000 patients total), there was no benefit for atenolol in terms of mortality, cardiovascular mortality or MI. There was a benefit for stroke, but this was mainly from one trial in which atenolol was not used as monotherapy in most patients.

In 3 trials with about 7,000 patients that compared atenolol to other anti-hypertensives, atenolol fared worse than the other medications for all parameters except for MI, where it was about the same.

The authors speculate that the non-lipophilic nature of atenolol (unlike metoprolol and others) might play a role, as might a lesser or absent influence on LVH, compared with other medications. They note that there have been no good trials comparing different beta-blockers in hypertension, thus this need not apply to other beta-blockers. And, of course, beta-blockers have an important role to play in the setting of ischemic heart disease, CHF and arrhythmias.

I’m not a big fan of meta-analyses, in general, but this one is intriguing, and does make atenolol seem much less attractive for hypertension (and perhaps for other indications as well).

Alas, discussion of your anti-hypertensives was not necessarily the question; BUT I still cringe at the use of this particular agent.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by MAxximal
what did you think use Agmatine on low carb diet?


What about dosing/timing when in low carb doc?

I don't think it changes much from when not on a low carb diet and as suggested in discussions before this (probably single-best time to take it is first thing in AM and every 24 hours thereafter); you are talking about an acting insulinomimetic, however, so it may potentiate symptoms of hypoglycemia in that setting. This would be a challenge in the normal population at large given the auto-regulatory set-up that inherently drives blood sugars in a neat range of 70-100 (+/- 5) mg/dl.

D_

 

[RipdnTxs]

I was given the Atenolol for my heart rate, sometimes in the past just rolling over in bed would cause my heart rate too increase alot for about a minute or so and then come back down. The BP med is doing a good job of keeping my BP at a normal level, I,m actually going to ask my Cardiologist if I can stop and see if I even need it, some days I forget to take it and have no issues with racing heat rate, when prescribed this med., I was under a great deal of stress in my personal life and I feel this had alot to do with the heart rate issue. I really appreciate you commenting on this, I will give this supplement a try soon and see how it goes.......





[UOTE=dinoiii;3086962]Well, I am unaware of interactions with ARBs or Beta-Blockers, although I am not necessarily a fan of atenolol in the first place:
When compared to placebo for the treatment of hypertension (4 trials with about 3,000 patients total), there was no benefit for atenolol in terms of mortality, cardiovascular mortality or MI. There was a benefit for stroke, but this was mainly from one trial in which atenolol was not used as monotherapy in most patients.

In 3 trials with about 7,000 patients that compared atenolol to other anti-hypertensives, atenolol fared worse than the other medications for all parameters except for MI, where it was about the same.

The authors speculate that the non-lipophilic nature of atenolol (unlike metoprolol and others) might play a role, as might a lesser or absent influence on LVH, compared with other medications. They note that there have been no good trials comparing different beta-blockers in hypertension, thus this need not apply to other beta-blockers. And, of course, beta-blockers have an important role to play in the setting of ischemic heart disease, CHF and arrhythmias.

I’m not a big fan of meta-analyses, in general, but this one is intriguing, and does make atenolol seem much less attractive for hypertension (and perhaps for other indications as well).

Alas, discussion of your anti-hypertensives was not necessarily the question; BUT I still cringe at the use of this particular agent.


D_[/QUOTE]

 

[BBB]

I've purchased bulk agmatine from Nutra. I'm going to take 750 mg/day for several months and see what transpires. Having said that, I'm really not sure what to expect. Some say better pumps, others recomp and still others better overall health. This I can say, the stuff is bitter as sin.

 

[AutoKal47]

I don't think it changes much from when not on a low carb diet and as suggested in discussions before this (probably single-best time to take it is first thing in AM and every 24 hours thereafter); you are talking about an acting insulinomimetic, however, so it may potentiate symptoms of hypoglycemia in that setting. This would be a challenge in the normal population at large given the auto-regulatory set-up that inherently drives blood sugars in a neat range of 70-100 (+/- 5) mg/dl.

D_

Thanks doc I got no problem with hypo, lol I go hypo 5 times a week usually

 

[dinoiii]

I've purchased bulk agmatine from Nutra. I'm going to take 750 mg/day for several months and see what transpires. Having said that, I'm really not sure what to expect. Some say better pumps, others recomp and still others better overall health. This I can say, the stuff is bitter as sin.

Bites nails in anticipation. I hope your experiment goes well. I have dosed it up as high as 4-5 grams for 3 months at a time without a lot of "consequence" so another thing I could likely say is toxicity is probably exceedingly low; so why not.

Thanks doc I got no problem with hypo, lol I go hypo 5 times a week usually

Concurrent insulin use?


D_

 

[MAxximal]

I don't think it changes much from when not on a low carb diet and as suggested in discussions before this (probably single-best time to take it is first thing in AM and every 24 hours thereafter); you are talking about an acting insulinomimetic, however, so it may potentiate symptoms of hypoglycemia in that setting. This would be a challenge in the normal population at large given the auto-regulatory set-up that inherently drives blood sugars in a neat range of 70-100 (+/- 5) mg/dl.

D_

so if i consume 1g on AM this will NOT kick me out of Ketosis?

 

[AutoKal47]

Concurrent insulin use?

D_

Oh not at all, I'm 100% natural (altho' I don't know if insulin use would be
considered not natty..), from starvation I guess

 

[T-Bone]

Bites nails in anticipation. I hope your experiment goes well. I have dosed it up as high as 4-5 grams for 3 months at a time without a lot of "consequence" so another thing I could likely say is toxicity is probably exceedingly low; so why not.






Concurrent insulin use?


D_

Is there really any additional benefit by going over 1 gram per day?. At 1 gram per day the price is reasonable, but definitely not at 4-5.

 

[Sourdough]

I've purchased bulk agmatine from Nutra. I'm going to take 750 mg/day for several months and see what transpires. Having said that, I'm really not sure what to expect. Some say better pumps, others recomp and still others better overall health. This I can say, the stuff is bitter as sin.

interested in your results... Ive heard nothing but good things about the production versions out but have hardly heard anything about the bulks and I usually try to get my supps in bulk that I know are going to be legit as I can get anyhow...

 

[AutoKal47]

interested in your results... Ive heard nothing but good things about the production versions out but have hardly heard anything about the bulks and I usually try to get my supps in bulk that I know are going to be legit as I can get anyhow...

I got bulk too, I should get it in a coupla days

 

[bigdavid]

Oh not at all, I'm 100% natural (altho' I don't know if insulin use would be
considered not natty..), from starvation I guess

Might not be considered natural but there is no way someone could test for it from my understanding

 

[Sourdough]

I got bulk too, I should get it in a coupla days

nice man id be interested in following along your results.. if your not going to be running any kinda log then at least hit me up after your a lil way into it to lmk if your seeing the desired and mentioned effects

 

[AutoKal47]

nice man id be interested in following along your results.. if your not going to be running any kinda log then at least hit me up after your a lil way into it to lmk if your seeing the desired and mentioned effects

I just started the Swole Stack log, and I have another sponsored log to fill after that one ugh..

But I will definitely try Agmatine while on the Swole and add in there or just make a review of it in here.
Worse case scenario count on it, I'll hit you up and let you know, I'm also very interested in how it'll work,
got a hefty 50gr tub too, so it'll last enough for a long-ish term use report

 

[Sourdough]

niiiiiiice.

 

[MAxximal]

i used with food but this time i thinking taking without.

 

[AutoKal47]

Got it today and dosed 500mg prewo.. godawful feeling
It feels like my body is fighting against it, i don't know if it's normal
the first time but jeez... The nootropic effect is heavy and not in a good way
for me, trynna workout and find myself staring at dust flakes for I don't know how long
and i feel lethargic.. Pumps are the same, in my case would be great since i'm on Pump-Bol
right now as prewo, but agmatine didn't enhance that or anything else.. bah

 

[StackedCop]

Got it today and dosed 500mg prewo.. godawful feeling
It feels like my body is fighting against it, i don't know if it's normal
the first time but jeez... The nootropic effect is heavy and not in a good way
for me, trynna workout and find myself staring at dust flakes for I don't know how long
and i feel lethargic.. Pumps are the same, in my case would be great since i'm on Pump-Bol
right now as prewo, but agmatine didn't enhance that or anything else.. bah

What brand???

 

[Ev52]

Got it today and dosed 500mg prewo.. godawful feeling
It feels like my body is fighting against it, i don't know if it's normal
the first time but jeez... The nootropic effect is heavy and not in a good way
for me, trynna workout and find myself staring at dust flakes for I don't know how long
and i feel lethargic.. Pumps are the same, in my case would be great since i'm on Pump-Bol
right now as prewo, but agmatine didn't enhance that or anything else.. bah

That's crazy, maybe it lowered your blood sugar too low?

 

[AutoKal47]

What brand???

Bulk from Bulkpowders, anything I got from them so far
was very good quality and grade

That's crazy, maybe it lowered your blood sugar too low?

I don't know man, I know that 3 hours passed since I finished my wo and
I'm lethargic as sh#t, I parked the car at home and *passed out* in it for like 15 minutes..

WO was fine, but instead of helping me like I said, it felt like my body was fighting against it
at which point if I don't feel ok I get pissed and go on out of rage
I was able to carry on a good one anyway but the feeling was really ugly

 

[StackedCop]

What was your pre workout carb intake?

 

[AutoKal47]

What was your pre workout carb intake?

Carb? lol.. My DAILY carb intake is 30gr on wo days, split in three meals
traces on day off.
I do warrior diet/IF, wo fasted in the morning, only BCAA pre/intra/post,
multi, vit D, prewo product of the month (Pumpbol+Ultima right now)
ATM I'm also completely off stims

The best way to describe the effect is that it seemed like agmatine
took out my aggression in the gym.. man you take that out from me
is a problem..

 

[mr.cooper69]

Got it today and dosed 500mg prewo.. godawful feeling
It feels like my body is fighting against it, i don't know if it's normal
the first time but jeez... The nootropic effect is heavy and not in a good way
for me, trynna workout and find myself staring at dust flakes for I don't know how long
and i feel lethargic.. Pumps are the same, in my case would be great since i'm on Pump-Bol
right now as prewo, but agmatine didn't enhance that or anything else.. bah

That is honestly an extremely odd reaction, especially at 500mg. Lethargy is strange as well. Give it another shot when you get the chance. This time, take 500mg with a high carb meal to see how you react.

 

[AutoKal47]

That is honestly an extremely odd reaction, especially at 500mg. Lethargy is strange as well. Give it another shot when you get the chance. This time, take 500mg with a high carb meal to see how you react.

30gr of carbs is my daily carb intake (on wo days), split in 3 meals
if carbs are required for it to work is not the right sups for me.
I took another 500mg last night with my last meal anyway,
noticed nothing, then I went to bed not long after that so i wouldn't know..

I'll try it again on my day off (sat) and see

 

[heavylifter33]

Hmm that's really odd. If you're always pretty carb depleted and the issues persist this might not be your "go to" supp. I've taken 1g Agmatine pre workout with no carbs and felt fine though.

 

[AutoKal47]

Hmm that's really odd. If you're always pretty carb depleted and the issues persist this might not be your "go to" supp. I've taken 1g Agmatine pre workout with no carbs and felt fine though.

Indeed.. I'll see if I can figure it out
I know that today I didn't take it prewo and had a
badass day in the gym. My aggression was back and
had a great wo.
I'll dose it tonight with my 2nd meal and see if
sides are back, if not another dose prebed, but
if there are no noticeable benefit I won't keep using it
even because I - very quickly and superficially - read
some possible problem with protein breakdown with this

Only thing is wth ima gonna do with 50gr of it if i don't
use it lol