Mind Steriods or Noots
- 02-24-2013, 07:54 PM
- 02-25-2013, 02:51 PM
- 02-25-2013, 06:07 PM
02-25-2013, 06:54 PM
One of the new things I've found out is that the visual cortex comes close to shutting down, even when eyes are open, when the brain goes into seeking/searching mode. David Perkins, the Harvard, Learning about Learning expert, has a couple whole books dealing with search mode thinking and Aha! moments.
The visual cortex on the other hand is the most studied area of how the brain is wired and Jeff Hawkins uses that visual cortex info as his major understanding of how the brain is wired for intelligence. His approach is extremely valuable for new AI program paradigms, but it is obviously missing both affective intelligence (feelings and emotions), and search mode intelligence. He has some gloss-over explanation of how search mode intelligence works that has some truth, but probably misses main points. He just doesn't care about affective intelligence, at least at this time. Affective intelligence is extremely important to the frontal cortex though as much of the affective stuff goes back and forth to there from other regions. People missing or handicapped in these areas make lousy life decisions.
My major interest here is deconstructing a movie like "Limitless" and seeing how much is total fantasy because it just cannot be done, or conflicts that exist in the brain, as in -- if you enhance one area you may slow down another area of cognition. Yet even using cycling to keep conflicts at bay, just how much can we do at this time to enhance normal cognition. Not "Limitless" abilities, but huge improvements.
02-26-2013, 11:06 PM
I've got my work cut out for me if I'm to follow up on this. I need to understand feelings and emotions (affective cognition), and how it interacts with all the other cognitive abilities.
I've decided to concentrate on about 5 authors at this point with some others giving occasional extra info. I've read about 25% of Kandel's "The Age of Insight," and he engages art and the unconscious as part of his observations. Kandel is an art enthusiast, has an MD, and is a trained psychoanalyst. He insists on working scientifically in areas where several science disciples come together. I've read half of "The Emotional Life of Your Brain" by Richard Davidson. The book is too pop culture in some areas, but is good science in others, and it illuminates areas of the affective brain that are hard to find elsewhere. I just received V.S. Ramachandran's "Phantoms In the Brain" today. This guy is very accessible in his writing (as are the two above scientists). He is known for his innovative problem solving style using everyday tools, rather than an expensive lab, to solve brain mysteries.
Tomorrow I will receive "The Archaeology of Mind: Neuroevolutionary Origins of Human Emotions" by Jaak Pankseep. A large section of his book seems to be about the positive emotions, which are seldom explored scientifically, and he has a major focus on playfulness and seeking behavior. Great promise here, but I haven't read it yet. Jaak, like Davidson, studies almost exclusively how the affective area of the brain connect with the "higher" cognitive area, and what the results are with that connectivity.
The fifth book is "Imagine: How Creativity Works" by Johan Lehrer, and I've already read it, but shall read it again after the new resources. I have a strong respect for Johan and how he demonstrates how creativity is more than one thing, and in the end takes a lot of group interaction to reach a peak.
This should all be done in in 5-6 weeks, then I will relax and see what new understanding arrives.
I'm not overwhelmed by this at all. My dopamine neurons are salivating to get at this stuff. All these sources are highly readable.
There are a number of other books that I shall occasionally look into such as David Perkin's material on using art to instill great learning skills, yet none of the these others are central now
02-27-2013, 07:54 AM
Exercising the brain is still going to produce the most significant effects cognitively. Dual n Back training and sites like Lumosity have the most remarkable results in terms of efficiency. They enhance memory, improve abstract thinking and logical deduction. Combined with nootropics and other supplements, it (among other mental exercises) and regular exercise/good nutrition will optimize results for mind and body. Now, if one already exhibits some neuropathology, the question remains as to what would work best and for the most part, a lot of it is through experimentation and regular trial and error.
02-27-2013, 08:56 AM
How this plays into the sides...i dunno. But as with all things in life and physiology balance is key
02-28-2013, 07:54 AM
Thanks for the responses guys,thats alot to think about. The interesting thing is, the next day I took no FXT or the combo and felt great all day like I did the first time with the Ani combo. My mind felt calm and clear all day. I also take Klonipin 1mg a day, Ive been taking this for a little over two years. I have never tried Prami., so I may give this a shot in the future. In the last year I have also become the guy I used to make fun of. I hardly ever go to the gym anymore, yet I still pay my monthly dues. I also have chronic sleep apnea and after about two months of trying different masks I have finally found one that is working. The SSRIs and almost suffocating every night, I,m sure are some of the reasons I feel like a different person, as in unmotivated about most things in life. I used to live for exercise, most any kind. I gotta get up off my arse and just get started again. I now understand how hard it is to get started again......
02-28-2013, 09:23 AM
Rip, I often find that after days of somewhat heavy supp/noot use, when I take a break for a day or two those days are sometimes more relaxed and focused than the 'on' days. Many of these compounds can build up and have synergistic effects, I feel it often a case of too much of a good thing, and in fact it's the breaks that allows the balance that I think we all seek. When I stay on any one thing for too long it usually ends up making me feel run down and I need more and more.
As for the physical part where you're at. You need to let yourself off the hook. Trust me, I've been there, It's a slippery slope I know and the farther down you slide the more and more you just end up saying f-it. But it's not as hard to climb out of this as you may think. Forgive yourself of what you failed to do yesterday, last week, last month, etc. Today is always the most important day of your life. Make the decision you want to make today, and tomorrow it gets a little easier. Speak positively to yourself, it makes all the difference. Goodluck.
02-28-2013, 10:11 AM
True. Don't beat yourself up over what you've been or haven't been doing and make an effort to start changing today. You can't change what is done, only improve going forward. Make no mistake that complacency and stagnation will kill the body and mind, so there is no doubt it has an effect on how you feel. Get your body physically active again- slowly, and you'll be surprised how other things start improving.
02-28-2013, 10:27 AM
03-05-2013, 12:51 PM
Just wanted to say this is a good thread with lots of good info. I have been looking into try noots recently due to having brain fog come on over the past year or so. I have been reading and doing as much research as I can and the main supplements I would like to try are Aniracetem, Noopept, and CDP Choline. I was thinking about a daily dosage of 750mg-1500mg Aniracetam, 20-30mg Noopept, and 500mg CDP Choline.
Is there any problem with taking everything all at once daily for convenience or should I stick with the general recommendation to split it up into 2 doses 3-4 hours apart? So maybe 750mg Aniracetam, 10-20mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline first thing in the morning and then 3-4 hours later 750mg Aniracetem, 10mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline.
I also have staple supplements that I take daily which should work well with this stack:
10g fish oil
500mg-100mg Vitamin C
1 cap Jarrow B-Right
1-2 caps Swanson's Full Spectrum E Tocotrieniols
2-2.5g Agmatine Sulfate
8-10g Citrulline Malate
Regarding the Noopept specifically, I've read that this supplement can cause permanent lasting changes to the brain, and if this is the case would a low daily dosage of 10-20mg be enough to elicit such permanent improvements and changes or would a higher daily dose be needed, say 30-60mg daily?
03-05-2013, 01:28 PM
03-05-2013, 07:05 PM
And Ripped, as the others said just get back in one day at a time. I've gotta do the same as I've taken 8-9 weeks where I've only done pushups and crunchies at work -- not exactly a full workout. I promised myself I'd start back in mid-March.
I finished the book "The Age of Insight" by Eric Kandel, and the term insight is a bit of a pun as the second part of the book goes deeply into how the brain processes visual info. There is a lot of interesting things covered, including the things that are fuzzy about LTP, memory, and learning processes. I have to go to work, so I say more later.
03-05-2013, 08:23 PM
03-06-2013, 07:50 AM
And Ripped, as the others said just get back in one day at a time. I've gotta do the same as I've taken 8-9 weeks where I've only done pushups and crunchies at work -- not exactly a full workout. I promised myself I'd start back in mid-March.
Thanks Tuberman, I go see my Doc.today to see about coming off SSRIs. I,ve been on and off for years now and after about a year of being on any of them so far, I get this unmotivated kinda emotionless sense about me. My two kids have been telling me lately, Dad ur shrinking from what U used to look like and even some people at work have asked why I have lost weight. If I stop lifting I loose weight pretty quickly. So I,m going to use all these comments and what has been suggested here to get myself motivated and start getting back to being an active person again....
03-06-2013, 07:54 AM
Nothing like your kids saying something to you to get you thinking.
03-06-2013, 10:36 AM
I've been using the noopept and it does seem to help. I should up my choline intake too, I've got some choline citrate here anyhow
03-06-2013, 02:04 PM
I was gonna go slow and work my way up as well just to make sure I can properly gauge reaction. I plan on adding 500mg of CDP Choline to to my daily supplements for at least 2-3 weeks before starting on the Aniracetem as as you had suggested. Then I'll slowly add in the Noopept as well. I'll definitely be going slow with the Noopept since anything that makes permanent changes to my brain is something I'd want to go slow and easy on.
In your opinion though, would 20mg daily be enough to elicit the permanent changes I've read about if used regularly over a long period of time with break in between or would this be too mild of a dose?
As for dosing, would you recommend taking the 20mg Noopept all at once or would I be better off spacing it out into 2 x 10mg doses split 3-4 hours apart? Also same question for the Aniracetem?
Overall I'm looking for a mental/cognitive boost as I will need it in the coming months due to a recent offer for advancement in my career. I will need to be at my best both mentally and physically. Physically I am doing pretty good and eat a very balance and nutritious diet and work out about 4-5 times a week.
03-06-2013, 02:33 PM
After you've taken a break from Noopept, I'd look into the Acetyl L-Tyrosine/L-Phenylalanine (350mgs-500mgs) + 450mgs Artichoke Extract and 10mgs Coleus Forskohlii first thing upon waking for a while. It's definitely what I'd called a mental/cognitive boost and more discernible than the other racetams barring phenylpiracetam. Even more so than Noopept. But I like Noopept and Aniracetam.
03-06-2013, 02:57 PM
03-06-2013, 03:16 PM
I also like many of the noops you mention. How about something like this for a stack:
500mg artichoke, 10mg coleus forskolli, 500mg tyrosine
2g piracetam, 500mg alcar, 300 mg alpha gpc
03-06-2013, 03:26 PM
I would't take the sulb so late in the day..it sometimes effects my sleep even when I take it early morning.
03-06-2013, 04:33 PM
Re: Mind Steriods or Noots
03-06-2013, 06:43 PM
I'm just starting to read "The Archaeology of the Mind" by Jaak Panksepp, and this guy is cutting edge on affective knowledge of the MindBrain or feelings/emotions. It looks to be quite valuable to these discussions. He comes in at a different viewpoint on learning/cognition then my other sources, although there is some overlap between him and two others: Kandel and Davidson.
Jaak gets into fine points about memory and learning, breaking things down to much smaller detail than Kandel has in the two books I've read so far, yet there is a lot "between the lines" in the Kandel books. Jaak goes into how experiments for memories were carried out in labs, and suggests what may have been left out, and states what neurosciences don't know.
I would say at this point that it's probably a good idea to cycle cognitive enhancers as there is at least two modes in learning and searching for new knowledge, and even these can likely be broken down further. Also there is more than one type of LTP as full learning needs to tap into implicit LTP as well as explicit LTP. Explicit LTP is what we have been talking about on here, and it is the most important memory enhancer in the usual sense, yet implicit memory is the memory of motor skills and other unconscious functions (yes, we do have an unconscious memory) and it has it's own LTP which doesn't use the hippocampus. The whole hippocampus involvement with explicit LTP has a Wow! factor in the way it uses time and spacial context to hold long-term memories that you can consciously recall. Knowing this temporial and spacial context that the hippocampus uses is a big help to building LTP in these memories.
Panksepp's book is 500 pages and may take about 10 days or so for me to absorb.
03-06-2013, 07:55 PM
03-07-2013, 06:06 AM
This is why we need to cycle these noots and stimulants, because sometimes you just need to effectively work with what you already know, and sometimes you need to relax to observe more. Verbal fluency can be promoted by focused attention, as most people already know the words and phrases they want to use so dopamine stimulated neurons would help there. Any extra connections needed would be small and covered by general motivation. Executive function is covered mainly by shear motivation too, and you, again, are not learning much new, just being effective and efficient.
The thing with lumocity is much of it is speeding up what you already know, and making cognitive motor skills more effective. I could use this, but it is more important for me to expand my explicit mental territory right now in brain science and neurology.
Having said this, things go back to experience in real life, and to "Play the whole game" as David Perkins says, I've got to do things myself. I haven't tried the explicit LTP supps yet, but I will soon, so I get a feel for how it fits in to this or creates it's own territory.
Question: I've got 20% forskolin here, so should I go for the 95% stuff or is the kind I have now good enough. I will likely use artichoke extract with it, although I do have quercetin too.
BTW, If you are anyone else has a better way of looking at these things, do not just negate me, state your own model clearly for discussion. Show how you'd improve on my model. I'm here to learn. I will keep an open mind, and everything I assume right now is very open to an overhaul. I know that reading people like Panksepp will change my paradigm on cognition as an example.
03-07-2013, 07:36 AM
It's funny you mention aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, & bacopa. I use aniractam at 1:30pm with supporting supplements like some Krill but it's usually following a well-balanced lunch. Sparingly, I'll use Sulbutiamine a few days a week and it's a very nice combo in the afternoon. I use Magnesium L-threonate near noon and another 1 at night with some other chelated magnesium (450 total), chelated zinc (15mgs) and a bit of B6 (10-20mgs). I take Bacopa x 2 with my standard supplements at around 6 pm after dinner. I feel like, for me, I've developed the ideal 'cycle' for now. I always mix things up after 2-3 months except for my standard supplementation like vits/mins, EFAs, etc. I do realize the importance of coming off of any compounds but baseline kind of sucks tbh lol. Prior to my workouts, I do find it difficult to not want to utilize a stim of some sort since I have to keep going through a full day of work, my cardio/weight workout, kids and wife come home so we prepare dinner, cleanup, kids homework, baths and finally get to sit back and relax by 8:30-ish. Bed by 10-11 normally. I do cycle my stim use but for now, it's been with varying combos i.e ones that don't have your standard ECA with others. I take weekends off typically. I'm trying Maca for added energy and thus far (haven't finished the bottle), I'm finding no utility in it at all. This has been amongst other natural non-stim supps. I'm fairly energetic for a 40 year old anyways mostly due to vigorous cardio sessions followed by 30 minutes of variable intensity weights depending on how I'm feeling, decent nutrition and at least 7hrs of sleep per night.
03-07-2013, 02:31 PM
Yeah, there always seems to be a ton of demands. I had to go into work for several hours, and just got home. I'm drinking a cup of coffee now with some Acetyl L-Carnitine so I can do some reading for several hours. I use aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, & bacopa to help relax me. Sometimes I get upset with the speed of life today.
You "cycle" during the day, and truth be told so do I usually, as it's difficult to not use at least caffeine during the day. If you get Lehrer's "Imagine," read the chapter on W.H. Auden the famous poet. That was fascinating for me.
I may try Lumocity when I do the CILTEP regimen, but I'll complete my reading of at least two more brain science books first. Speedy motor skills using all the senses is a big part of the learning process too. Brain scientists will often include this type of learning in the implicit, or subconscious area, but that seems to be a problem with the way they slot knowledge and learning.
03-09-2013, 05:57 PM
In the last 2 1/2 days I've read a little over half of the book, "The Archaeology of the Mind" by Jaak Panksepp. His model of the "Seeking System" introduces to me a whole new paradigm on how the brain works. The old model is the "reward/punishment learning system" created by the behaviorists. Even though behaviorism has fallen out of favor, for the most part, some of it's models for the meaning of learning are still strong in the brain science community. They are so powerful that most brain scientists will not risk their careers by going against the status quo. The Seeking System, it seems to me, is a vastly better way of looking into brain functions, learning, mood, and even how people mature than the old models.
This is an awesome book (and I never, ever use that type of overstatement, but this is an exception)!
03-10-2013, 03:08 PM
I went and saw my Doc. and he really spent some time with me going over my less than optimal brain function. He said I have a
low Dopamine output. Instead of taking a more natural approach at this time, he took me off Prozac and put me on Wellbutrin which is more suited for my situation. He wants to try this for a while and get me moving and doing the things I used to enjoy. I have become skeptical about SSRIs, but am going to give this a try. I have read some pretty bad reactions from mixing this one with alcohol, I drink very rarely. This next week my family and I are going to our lakehouse for 6 days and I like to have some beers while sitting on the dock and chilln. If anyone has taken this med. and drank I would like to here your experiences. If I decide to say to hell with SSRIs, what would be some supps. to help with Dopamine output ?????
03-10-2013, 06:22 PM
03-10-2013, 09:12 PM
03-15-2013, 02:50 AM
I finished Panksepp's book "The Archeology of the Mind." It does answer some questions, but opens many more. The study of the brain from an affective (feelings) viewpoint is relatively new.
In chap.6 he says, " LTP.....formation has been revealed....in vitro....with slabs of hippocampal tissue. ....Still....there remains a chasm of ignorance between ....LTP and the nature of real life memories."
Basically he is saying there is always strong involvement in the deeper earlier developed brain parts in the limbic system and even the midbrain for how quickly we learn, and how easy it is for us to retain memories and learning. If you want to learn fast and retain stuff with an iron grip, then fear for your life or fall in love with your interests.
He is saying much more though, and he does get into the problem with stims, especially for children with a diagnosis of ADHD. Stims make us more able to focus on daily (read boring) subjects, yet they reduce playfulness and seeking mode behavior that reveals totally new info. The seeking mode type behavior is what brings novel things actively into our lives and we tend to get stale and flat if this mode is stressed or turned down.
03-15-2013, 08:04 AM
As far as retaining things, I think it goes without say that you are going to remember things you love or that almost killed you, more than things you don't care about.
03-15-2013, 10:11 AM
03-15-2013, 10:25 AM
Absolutely. I can get immediately nostalgic by going out to grab the paper in the morning and smelling the morning air. It will even take me back to being an elementary kid and walking to the bus.
For me, smell is the strongest link to memories.
03-15-2013, 10:32 AM
I've been taking 600mg of pramiracetam the past week havnt noticed any worth mentioning.. I spend probably about 10-12 hours a week for school and dont feel i have retained any more info than usual. Going to start taking 900 soon
03-15-2013, 10:37 AM
That is a ridiculous amount of prami to need to take. You likely aren't a responder and that is going to get very expensive.
Typically you will see the people on Longecity taking 1g+ doses to experiment with, but it isn't anything long term. Except for some of the nut jobs over there.
03-15-2013, 10:56 AM
I totally agree with you that all this is "common knowledge." Yet what Panksepp is saying, is that most brain scientists even today do not include this common knowledge in there experimental concepts. They are still working with behaviorist models of "reward/punishment" when it comes to experimentation with learning, and that does not allow looking into things in these ways.
Is Pankseep correct about stims? He certainly is with kids on psychostimulants , but with adults it is more iffy. I can think of a couple of comedians on coke who were very playful.
The problem comes with creating new science that finds better ways of finding new info on deeper neuropaths and networks that actually include them in science in a way of being definite about their influence. Show how these networks interact with the neocortex in the learning process in humans. Most brain science is currently stating that affective or feeling input has very little ability to alter learning or that most emotional content is modulated in the neocortex anyway. There is a theory called the James-Lange concept, and it states that emotions are "fed back" to the neocortex, or the thinking part of the brain, and only then are emotions "experienced." So humans or animals don't have feelings until they "think about" them (and since animals can't think, they don't have real feelings or emotions). There are several versions today of this fed back cognition of emotions. Panksepp just says this is only somewhat true and mostly false, and if brain scientists want to make further progress on understanding things like LTP, and other learning concepts, they need to change their paradigm.
There are obviously completely other approaches such as "binding with oscillations" which are again new territory in brain research. I have a couple of books ordered that will deal with strengths and weaknesses of various scanning devices, such as fMRI, EEG, MEG, PET scans and more. BTW, the "binding with oscillations" scientists are also looking into the influences of deeper areas of the brain that create wakefulness and strongly influence the executive neocortex areas. The midbrain seems to be the central interest to them and particularly the motor areas, which are very close to the PAG area that Panksepp states is the center of the emotional area.
Unfortunately, these are both unexplored territories for the most part.
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