Mind Steriods or Noots

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    The longterm effects are definitely what makes Stablon so great. There are not many drugs out there that boast neuroplasticity either. $45 per 60 caps, that would last me around 10-12 days. I've done two long runs of this in the past and I remember them costing me over $130 per month.

    Deprenyl or caber don't even come close to the positive effects of Stablon either (for people mentioning them in here or other threads). Caber does nothing positive for me. Deprenyl is ok.. but has no substantial nootropic effect for me. I also don't really respond to ALCAR, piracetam and the like. I've given them proper test runs, but didn't reap any real benefits from them.
    GutterPump,
    I ordered a couple of books dealing with neuroplasticity from Amazon. Many people working in these areas today have a dislike of using drugs or even supplements to help. It seems the pendulum has swung back to the anti-drug, anti-pharmacy. That doesn't bother me as I'm just looking for insight and will ignore their prejudices. I DO feel that some of the drugs and supplements are a great benefit to people who need them and even others that can be helped by them.

    One thing is obvious, if a person is lucky enough to lead a fairly mellow life, and has loving family and friends around, then that persons brain is likely to have a greater neuroplasticity well into an older age. The Oxytocin hormone system (and other relaxed, bonding hormone systems) are much more forgiving then the constant fight or flight hormones. But how many of us have been able to lead such a life?

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    Certainly not myself. I live by myself in NYC with no family in the US at all - spending the majority of my time working. I would say I live an extremely stressful life, with mainly just myself as a support system. My family is very spread out and far away.

    I can connect somewhat with the anti-drug mentality, but I am not against them when needed. I have actually been considering a change in career and going back to school, specifically to study Osteopathic Medicine.
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    I just found this thread and am very interested in this subject.
    I had a little taste of "NZT" effects with the AndroDrive but didn't like the side effects (High blood pressure)

    In searching for products I found this stack on Amazon.
    DMAA - 10g
    Sulbutiamine - 100g
    Pramiracetam - 25g
    Piracetam - 150g
    Caffeine - 30g
    Choline CDP - 150g
    Aniracetam - 75g
    Oxiracetam - 75g

    They are claiming it is a 90 day supply for about $320.

    I may get it and also some Noopept for experimenting.

    Thoughts?

    Red.
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    Sounds very, very weak and just a ****tail of ingredients that are underdosed and way over priced.

    For instance:
    1500mg a day of ani is recommended
    1500-3000mg a day of piracetam
    Choline- I take 600mg of alpha GPC and is stronger than choline cdp. Most Choline supps are between 250-500mg
    DMAA is now illegal to sell and is just nasty stuff anyway. Just a cheap amphetamine.
    Caffeine- 30mg? What is that, like a 1/4 cup of coffee?
    etc,etc....

    I would not waste my money on that crappy sounding product.
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    I'm glad I came here first!!!

    I was curious about the caffeine myself.. I mean I'm already drinking 2 to 3 coffees a day and I thought there was about 100 to 150mg caffeine in a coffee.
    Interesting.

    Thanks Kisaj!!

    Red.
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    I am making an assumption that you meant mg and not g? If this is in grams, than obviously this is a better deal, but I don't know how you would separate everything into the right doses without time and effort.
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    I have a scale that will go down to 0.001 gram. No problem to weigh out the dose. I also have capsules if I wanted to make a weeks worth or something.
    Here is their recommended dosing:
    25-50mg DMAA
    250-750mg Sulbutiamine
    100-200mg Caffeine Anhydrous
    500mg-1g Choline CDP
    250mg Pramiracetam (morning only)
    750mg - 1.5g Aniracetam (morning only)
    1-3g Piracetam (afternoon only)
    750mg - 1.5g Oxiracetam (afternoon only)

    Red
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    What is a good recommended stack for a beginner??

    Red
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    Ah, that is different. Personally, I would just throw the DMAA away. But that is me. Also, I would not stack all the racetams together like that, especially in the beginning. They all have a different effect and people react differently to each one. I would start with one and run a full month before moving to another. If there are any unwanted feelings or things you don't like- you won't know what is doing it. That does sound like a better deal, but still expensive.

    For me, I hate Piracetam and it doesn't work well with me. Irritable, tired, foggy, etc. Oxiracetam was like huperzine. Aniracetam is the best thing ever. I wouldn't have known that unless I took them by themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    I am making an assumption that you meant mg and not g? If this is in grams, than obviously this is a better deal, but I don't know how you would separate everything into the right doses without time and effort.
    Yeah kisaj,

    That's 333.33 mg of caffeine per day, but there's several reason why you are correct.

    Red,
    I believe all these racetams should initially be tested out one at a time to see which ones effect you and how. The Piracetam in this is underdosed. The DMAA is a bad idea, and could give you high BP too. You and I already get plenty of caffeine through coffee. the Sulbutiamine is dosed at about right, but perhaps a bit low for every day. The Aniracetam is dosed at about 60% of what you need every day. I don't know about the Oxiracetam, but a lot of people either chose oxi or ani -- not both. The Pramiracetam is also dosed at around 60% of what is needed for a 90 day supply, but it is supposed to stack well with either oxi or ani.

    The thing is to at first try these one at a time at decent dose levels. Three of these racetams stacked together with some of the blood brain barrier crossing B vitamins like Sulbutiamine could likely be great, but don't jump into unknown waters full force. Example: Sulbutiamine acts like a pretty strong brain stimulant for me and I get a crash effect from it after 10-12 hours that I don't like at all.

    The CDP choline in this is decent and not underdosed.

    It was necessary to be cautious with the Ando series and you should also take things gentle with these.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRaptor View Post
    What is a good recommended stack for a beginner??

    Red
    Just chose one of the stronger racetams such as Aniracetam or Oxiracetam or even Pramiracetam (very strong by it self), and stack it with a good choline source to start. This is inexpensive too!

    Aniracetam with CDP Choline is working extremely well for me after just 3 days. I'll say more later.

    I sent you a PM about where to look to get better prices.
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    I got to try it
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Ah, that is different. Personally, I would just throw the DMAA away. But that is me. Also, I would not stack all the racetams together like that, especially in the beginning. They all have a different effect and people react differently to each one. I would start with one and run a full month before moving to another. If there are any unwanted feelings or things you don't like- you won't know what is doing it. That does sound like a better deal, but still expensive.

    For me, I hate Piracetam and it doesn't work well with me. Irritable, tired, foggy, etc. Oxiracetam was like huperzine. Aniracetam is the best thing ever. I wouldn't have known that unless I took them by themselves.
    kisaj,

    Pira did work okay for me, but wasn't fantastic. No negatives with it, but only mild positives. Huperzine-A had a better effect, yet seems a bit too much at 200 mcg. That stuff had a sharpening effect with the huperzine being more positive in that direction.

    Aniracetam is having a very strong creative effect on me. It helps me connecting the dots between far flung areas. THIS IS NOT A PLACEBO EFFECT, as it's obvious and powerful. I want this to get even better!
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    I went to workout and probably overdid it. I did weights for 35 minutes, and cycling for 1:25. The cycling was intense too. I may get very tired at work tonight.
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    Hey Tuber, Thanks for the link. Some great prices there. I ordered up a few things. I'm in Africa at the moment but will be back in 2 weeks. Can't wait to get started. I think I'll start with the Ani and CDP.
    Also I was talking to my Russian girl and she asked her friends about Nootept. Seems she can get tons of it fairly cheaply.
    Any experience with that??

    It all sounds very exciting. Can't wait.

    Red
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRaptor View Post
    Hey Tuber, Thanks for the link. Some great prices there. I ordered up a few things. I'm in Africa at the moment but will be back in 2 weeks. Can't wait to get started. I think I'll start with the Ani and CDP.
    Also I was talking to my Russian girl and she asked her friends about Nootept. Seems she can get tons of it fairly cheaply.
    Any experience with that??

    It all sounds very exciting. Can't wait.

    Red
    Red,

    I would like to try Noopept as it is much stronger than even Prami, and you only need about 30mg per day, so 25 grams would last over 2 years of continued use. Your scale would come in handy. Noopept is also considered by the Russians as a probable neuron and brain healer, and it may even create more nerve growth factor than Lion's Mane.

    The AndroDrive has powerful noot type effects which are hard for me to nail down. Definitely more wide-awake, and better analytic abilities, but something more. I did a full 8 weeks at 3 caps per day with some transdermal 11-OXO. The Preg in it has a mild mood enhancing effect.

    The Ani is thus far the most "creativity" enhancing noot I've run. It also has me more wide-awake in a non-stim way. Last night I did not get very tired at work, in spite of working out too hard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Certainly not myself. I live by myself in NYC with no family in the US at all - spending the majority of my time working. I would say I live an extremely stressful life, with mainly just myself as a support system. My family is very spread out and far away.

    I can connect somewhat with the anti-drug mentality, but I am not against them when needed. I have actually been considering a change in career and going back to school, specifically to study Osteopathic Medicine.
    The one thing that can take neuroplasticity beyond even a placid lifestyle is living in a crowded urban environment with lots of smart people around, even if it is stressful. The way to get smarter is to be around lots of different types of smart people and to rub elbows with them.
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    Edit:
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    Ani appears to be working for someone. lol
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    I enjoyed the AndroDrive at 3 per day. Nice boost in mental clarity and focus. Also had some mild added motivation to get things done.
    I found that if I went over 3 per day then I usually woke in the night with pounding heart (high blood pressure). Even more pronounced with 5 per day.
    I'm taking 4 AndroMass per day at the moment so can't take the AndroDrive with it.

    It will be interesting to see how the Noots stack with AndroMass.
    After much reading I'm going to start with ANI and CDP.

    Red.

    P.S. My Russian Girl has become very interested in Nootept and will be getting us 2 grams to try.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRaptor View Post
    I enjoyed the AndroDrive at 3 per day. Nice boost in mental clarity and focus. Also had some mild added motivation to get things done.
    I found that if I went over 3 per day then I usually woke in the night with pounding heart (high blood pressure). Even more pronounced with 5 per day.
    I'm taking 4 AndroMass per day at the moment so can't take the AndroDrive with it.

    It will be interesting to see how the Noots stack with AndroMass.
    After much reading I'm going to start with ANI and CDP.

    Red.

    P.S. My Russian Girl has become very interested in Nootept and will be getting us 2 grams to try.
    Yep, Get some if you can and try it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRaptor View Post
    I enjoyed the AndroDrive at 3 per day. Nice boost in mental clarity and focus. Also had some mild added motivation to get things done.
    I found that if I went over 3 per day then I usually woke in the night with pounding heart (high blood pressure). Even more pronounced with 5 per day.
    I'm taking 4 AndroMass per day at the moment so can't take the AndroDrive with it.

    It will be interesting to see how the Noots stack with AndroMass.
    After much reading I'm going to start with ANI and CDP.

    Red.

    P.S. My Russian Girl has become very interested in Nootept and will be getting us 2 grams to try.

    I love AndroDrive. I've been taking 3 caps per day, with 3 caps of AndroHard for a couple months now. My BP went up to 140/105. I take cozaar (BP med) so I'v increased my dose of it now and my doc added in a water pill. I'm on TRT so the water pill will help anyhow. I love this combination for drive, aggression and focus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Ani appears to be working for someone. lol
    kisaj,

    What effects can you tell about aniracetam? I understand it's hard to nail down these feelings.

    Besides the creative "connecting dots" effects, I also get a motivation effect. I feel like getting out of bed and doing something after 6 or 6.5 hours. It's different then the motivation effect from something like AndroDrive, which is different from a stimulant motivation effect. The Ani has the best noot effects for me so far, and I will probably experiment with stacks built around it as a center.

    The racetams are open to medium term testing of say 3-4 weeks, because we can usually notice something by then or not, but there is supposed to be cumulative effects too. The subtle noots such as Lion's Mane Mushrooms and Bacopa do have some mild initial effects, but the important effects are long term and must be taken on faith for several months.

    Lion's Mane takes about 6 months to really kick in for great effect, and Bacopa takes 3 months to have something beyond the initial anti-anxiety properties, as it then is supposed to help memory and related noot values. I have not used Bacopa constantly. I will in the future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I love AndroDrive. I've been taking 3 caps per day, with 3 caps of AndroHard for a couple months now. My BP went up to 140/105. I take cozaar (BP med) so I'v increased my dose of it now and my doc added in a water pill. I'm on TRT so the water pill will help anyhow. I love this combination for drive, aggression and focus.
    I purchased 3 bottles of AndroDrive when it was on sale, and still have 2 full bottles left. Cost was a little over $40 per then, which is inexpensive for 2 months of mental sharpness and motivation. I also have a bottle of AndroBulk which remains unopened, and a lot of bulk powder 11-OXO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    kisaj,

    What effects can you tell about aniracetam? I understand it's hard to nail down these feelings.

    Besides the creative "connecting dots" effects, I also get a motivation effect. I feel like getting out of bed and doing something after 6 or 6.5 hours. It's different then the motivation effect from something like AndroDrive, which is different from a stimulant motivation effect. The Ani has the best noot effects for me so far, and I will probably experiment with stacks built around it as a center.

    The racetams are open to medium term testing of say 3-4 weeks, because we can usually notice something by then or not, but there is supposed to be cumulative effects too. The subtle noots such as Lion's Mane Mushrooms and Bacopa do have some mild initial effects, but the important effects are long term and must be taken on faith for several months.
    For me, the most noticeable was clarity when speaking in public or in front of a large group, which I often have to do in my line of work. I found after 2-3 days that I was no longer searching for the right words, they were just there. Then after about 2 weeks, I actually found myself looking for an excuse to start discussions or take the lead in meetings because it was becoming so easy. For me, that is bar none the most incredible thing I have ever experienced. I actually watched the movie Limitless with my wife the other night and we were laughing because she said, "see, that is just how you are anymore"- with the ability to talk about things that I really don't know, but I have the confidence that the words are going to be right.That leads into the anti-anxiety. When you are so comfortable in your mind, the anxiety vanishes and you are never concerned.

    I don't have physical energy from it, but pure mental energy that puts me in the best mood. Rhodiola Rosea, which I started last year, has allowed me to get 5 hours of sleep a night and be energized all day. That is a great combo with noots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    For me, the most noticeable was clarity when speaking in public or in front of a large group, which I often have to do in my line of work. I found after 2-3 days that I was no longer searching for the right words, they were just there. Then after about 2 weeks, I actually found myself looking for an excuse to start discussions or take the lead in meetings because it was becoming so easy. For me, that is bar none the most incredible thing I have ever experienced. I actually watched the movie Limitless with my wife the other night and we were laughing because she said, "see, that is just how you are anymore"- with the ability to talk about things that I really don't know, but I have the confidence that the words are going to be right.That leads into the anti-anxiety. When you are so comfortable in your mind, the anxiety vanishes and you are never concerned.

    I don't have physical energy from it, but pure mental energy that puts me in the best mood. Rhodiola Rosea, which I started last year, has allowed me to get 5 hours of sleep a night and be energized all day. That is a great combo with noots.
    The Aniracetam gives me the effects I was looking for so it's a keeper. I'll probably test it another 2 to 3 weeks alone and with minor noots. I woke up today for the second day in a row with a mild euphoric effect... barely noticeable. Yet when I'm in that early stage between sleep and awake I can tell it's there. Ani does help words come together fluidly, but even better it helps me pull unconnected ideas from various disciplines and quickly arrange them into something new for me. This may even be going on with the visual areas as well as with words and metaphors. I'm into photography and visual arts so I'll find out.

    As far as talking about things that you "really don't know," you probably know more than you think you do on a subconscious level. Ani gives you fluid access to much of this. People that are analytical in nature usually have a bit of a "meaning grubbing" fear of not connecting with the right meaning just when they need it. W.H. Auden, the poet, was obsessed with perfection, and he used amphetamines for years to work out the most exacting and refined poetry. Auden was extremely creative, but his exact poetry had to be anxiety as well as stimulant fueled. Ha, let's just say that aniracetam is a much better direction to go then amphetamines.

    I do want to try Noopept and/or Stablon some time this year. I may next (after connecting ani with a couple of other minor noots) experiment with pramiracetam alone, then stacked with ani. In a week I'll probably add some Huperzine-a at 100mcg into the ani. I do not think it requires more than the standard dose to do it's full work...Aniracetam that is, just 750mg X 2 times a day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post

    People that are analytical in nature usually have a bit of a "meaning grubbing" fear of not connecting with the right meaning just when they need it.
    haha. Yep, that is me. I have always had the tendency to sit back and assess a situation and analyze it before jumping in. A concern of mine in general (but more so in front of Fortune 500 executive levels) is using a word wrong or saying something that did not come out like I meant it to. I am actually very good at talking in public forums and very social in general when it is casual and free flow. It always annoyed me that I would over think my words in a predictable or planned setting like a meeting or conference when I knew I was leading it or had a part in it.

    To have that all but evaporate from the mind is a very liberating and confident feeling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    haha. Yep, that is me. I have always had the tendency to sit back and assess a situation and analyze it before jumping in. A concern of mine in general (but more so in front of Fortune 500 executive levels) is using a word wrong or saying something that did not come out like I meant it to. I am actually very good at talking in public forums and very social in general when it is casual and free flow. It always annoyed me that I would over think my words in a predictable or planned setting like a meeting or conference when I knew I was leading it or had a part in it.

    To have that all but evaporate from the mind is a very liberating and confident feeling.
    About a year and a half ago a guy on LongeCity posted a comprehensive noot stack online, and his flagship noot was Aniracetam, as that was the racetam that convinced him of the effectiveness of mental boosters. I read that and said to myself that I would have to try Aniracetam some day, and I've just gotten around to it now. I'm impressed!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRaptor;3420002.
    P.S. My Russian Girl has become very interested in Nootept and will be getting us 2 grams to try.
    In a month I may pick up a gram of this and try Noopept at just 20mg per day -- that's good for over 5 weeks. And people say it's very effective at those levels. I have a 1mg scale like you have. BYOB on Amazon does have good pricing on their CDP Choline BTW.
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    The last two days I did 65 minutes per day of cardio, but I've been wimping out on the weights and only doing light sessions. Tonight is my night off so I'll go in to the workout place late and hit the weights hard. I won't worry much about cardio tonight.

    The best test of these noots, for me, would to learn something completely new and see how well you can pick the new material, both speed of learning and comprehension. If I want to test them this way I need to make a decision as I'm interested in two totally different directions, and do not have time to do both.

    I would like to pursue photography and that would mean learning Photoshop Elements and learning to use a good graphics tablet, then later the full Photoshop. Yet I also want to learn Spanish, and that might be more of a test for me, as I'm ordinarily resistant to learning a new language. I get irritated by the illogical structure of language, but noots would allow me to be just playful with language and not care about my pre-conceived notions.

    I could go after the Spanish now and do the full Photoshop in the fall, as I could get it cheap as a student with a class in photography. Hmm. I need to decide.
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