Mind Steriods or Noots

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  1. Thanks guys.....


  2. Just wanted to say this is a good thread with lots of good info. I have been looking into try noots recently due to having brain fog come on over the past year or so. I have been reading and doing as much research as I can and the main supplements I would like to try are Aniracetem, Noopept, and CDP Choline. I was thinking about a daily dosage of 750mg-1500mg Aniracetam, 20-30mg Noopept, and 500mg CDP Choline.

    Is there any problem with taking everything all at once daily for convenience or should I stick with the general recommendation to split it up into 2 doses 3-4 hours apart? So maybe 750mg Aniracetam, 10-20mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline first thing in the morning and then 3-4 hours later 750mg Aniracetem, 10mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline.

    I also have staple supplements that I take daily which should work well with this stack:

    10g fish oil
    2.5g Creatine
    200mg Caffeine
    1.2g NAC
    200mg Na-Rala
    500mg-100mg Vitamin C
    1 cap Jarrow B-Right
    1-2 caps Swanson's Full Spectrum E Tocotrieniols
    2-2.5g Agmatine Sulfate
    8-10g Citrulline Malate
    20-30g BCAA's

    Pre-Bed:

    100mg-5htp
    ZMA
    3mg Melatonin
    25mg L-Theanine

    Regarding the Noopept specifically, I've read that this supplement can cause permanent lasting changes to the brain, and if this is the case would a low daily dosage of 10-20mg be enough to elicit such permanent improvements and changes or would a higher daily dose be needed, say 30-60mg daily?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by hsk View Post
    Just wanted to say this is a good thread with lots of good info. I have been looking into try noots recently due to having brain fog come on over the past year or so. I have been reading and doing as much research as I can and the main supplements I would like to try are Aniracetem, Noopept, and CDP Choline. I was thinking about a daily dosage of 750mg-1500mg Aniracetam, 20-30mg Noopept, and 500mg CDP Choline.

    Is there any problem with taking everything all at once daily for convenience or should I stick with the general recommendation to split it up into 2 doses 3-4 hours apart? So maybe 750mg Aniracetam, 10-20mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline first thing in the morning and then 3-4 hours later 750mg Aniracetem, 10mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline.

    I also have staple supplements that I take daily which should work well with this stack:

    10g fish oil
    2.5g Creatine
    200mg Caffeine
    1.2g NAC
    200mg Na-Rala
    500mg-100mg Vitamin C
    1 cap Jarrow B-Right
    1-2 caps Swanson's Full Spectrum E Tocotrieniols
    2-2.5g Agmatine Sulfate
    8-10g Citrulline Malate
    20-30g BCAA's

    Pre-Bed:

    100mg-5htp
    ZMA
    3mg Melatonin
    25mg L-Theanine

    Regarding the Noopept specifically, I've read that this supplement can cause permanent lasting changes to the brain, and if this is the case would a low daily dosage of 10-20mg be enough to elicit such permanent improvements and changes or would a higher daily dose be needed, say 30-60mg daily?
    Imo, no need to go over 20mgs/day for Noopept. It does work well with Aniracetam btw. I'd consider upping my choline intake some though unless you're getting enough through your diet...but I do see that you're consuming alot of EFA's so some of that will be utilized as avoid acetylcholine depletion. Also, one thing to consider with that type of NAC dose is your intake of Vitamin C is deficient. It's usually recommended to match on a 1:1 ratio because without Vitamin C acting in it's antioxidant role, you 'may' develop kidney stones. Much more common with regular L-Cysteine where a 1:3 ratio is recommended. If it's your first time using nootropics, I'd recommend starting off with Aniracetam alone with some good fats (like after breakfast or lunch) or with some Krill Oil for it's quick absorption. You can always add the Noopept later once you assess how Ani is treating you. I personally like it for it's anxiolytic effects albeit subtle. It has a dosing curve where you feel a bit sedate and then the 2nd phase where you seem more focused. A few, like me, have reported these findings. Otherwise, you should see some nice results over time. Noopept is said to be used on a 2-3mth on period, with a month off. You'll notice when you've had enough since it's known to cause irritability or trouble sleeping over time. This happened to me at right about the 1.5 month mark. Now when I do use it, I always take the weekends off and then allow for a month off somewhere down the line.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    I really don't know tub. I know that its structure gives it a unique set of pharmacokenetics that's unique from other ssris. I also know that's its far more superior at passing the blood-brain barrier than previous generations of ssris. Its some where along lines of 95%. Which is incredibly high. Its also somehow got the unique ability to control all the nuerotransmitters, not just serotonin. By control i mean keep the three in balance and proportionate to one another. Im sure this is the bbiggest factor in its effectiveness.

    How this plays into the sides...i dunno. But as with all things in life and physiology balance is key
    Thanks for the info Man.

    And Ripped, as the others said just get back in one day at a time. I've gotta do the same as I've taken 8-9 weeks where I've only done pushups and crunchies at work -- not exactly a full workout. I promised myself I'd start back in mid-March.

    I finished the book "The Age of Insight" by Eric Kandel, and the term insight is a bit of a pun as the second part of the book goes deeply into how the brain processes visual info. There is a lot of interesting things covered, including the things that are fuzzy about LTP, memory, and learning processes. I have to go to work, so I say more later.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    Thanks for the info Man.

    And Ripped, as the others said just get back in one day at a time. I've gotta do the same as I've taken 8-9 weeks where I've only done pushups and crunchies at work -- not exactly a full workout. I promised myself I'd start back in mid-March.

    I finished the book "The Age of Insight" by Eric Kandel, and the term insight is a bit of a pun as the second part of the book goes deeply into how the brain processes visual info. There is a lot of interesting things covered, including the things that are fuzzy about LTP, memory, and learning processes. I have to go to work, so I say more later.
    I wish I had the time to read like that but with little kids, full-time work and working out/household responsibilities, the best chance I get is when I engage in discussion on forums for an hour or so. Soon they'll be old enough to do a lot on their own but normally I'd love to read books like that. I have a couple I got on my tablet that I haven't even touched or opened. Do you have 1 or 2 you'd recommend aside from the ones I mentioned earlier as 'must reads'? I'd appreciate it.
    •   
       


  6. And Ripped, as the others said just get back in one day at a time. I've gotta do the same as I've taken 8-9 weeks where I've only done pushups and crunchies at work -- not exactly a full workout. I promised myself I'd start back in mid-March.


    Thanks Tuberman, I go see my Doc.today to see about coming off SSRIs. I,ve been on and off for years now and after about a year of being on any of them so far, I get this unmotivated kinda emotionless sense about me. My two kids have been telling me lately, Dad ur shrinking from what U used to look like and even some people at work have asked why I have lost weight. If I stop lifting I loose weight pretty quickly. So I,m going to use all these comments and what has been suggested here to get myself motivated and start getting back to being an active person again....

  7. Nothing like your kids saying something to you to get you thinking.

  8. I've been using the noopept and it does seem to help. I should up my choline intake too, I've got some choline citrate here anyhow

  9. Quote Originally Posted by xsiv1 View Post
    Imo, no need to go over 20mgs/day for Noopept. It does work well with Aniracetam btw. I'd consider upping my choline intake some though unless you're getting enough through your diet...but I do see that you're consuming alot of EFA's so some of that will be utilized as avoid acetylcholine depletion. Also, one thing to consider with that type of NAC dose is your intake of Vitamin C is deficient. It's usually recommended to match on a 1:1 ratio because without Vitamin C acting in it's antioxidant role, you 'may' develop kidney stones. Much more common with regular L-Cysteine where a 1:3 ratio is recommended. If it's your first time using nootropics, I'd recommend starting off with Aniracetam alone with some good fats (like after breakfast or lunch) or with some Krill Oil for it's quick absorption. You can always add the Noopept later once you assess how Ani is treating you. I personally like it for it's anxiolytic effects albeit subtle. It has a dosing curve where you feel a bit sedate and then the 2nd phase where you seem more focused. A few, like me, have reported these findings. Otherwise, you should see some nice results over time. Noopept is said to be used on a 2-3mth on period, with a month off. You'll notice when you've had enough since it's known to cause irritability or trouble sleeping over time. This happened to me at right about the 1.5 month mark. Now when I do use it, I always take the weekends off and then allow for a month off somewhere down the line.
    Thanks for the tips regarding the noots. I usually take 3-4g of fish oil in the morning with the rest of my morning supps and firstmeal of the day is always 25g of whey protein, 1 medium orange, 1/2 cup old fashioned rolled oats cooked in water with 2 frozen chicken tenderloins, and I crack 1-2 whole organic free range Omega eggs into the oatmeal/porridge once its almost done so that the yolks will still be bit runny when everything is done. I hope this will be more than enough choline for the noots I plan to take, also I plan on adding CDP Choline to my supplement staples as well so hopefully that will shore any possible choline deficiency.

    I was gonna go slow and work my way up as well just to make sure I can properly gauge reaction. I plan on adding 500mg of CDP Choline to to my daily supplements for at least 2-3 weeks before starting on the Aniracetem as as you had suggested. Then I'll slowly add in the Noopept as well. I'll definitely be going slow with the Noopept since anything that makes permanent changes to my brain is something I'd want to go slow and easy on.

    In your opinion though, would 20mg daily be enough to elicit the permanent changes I've read about if used regularly over a long period of time with break in between or would this be too mild of a dose?

    As for dosing, would you recommend taking the 20mg Noopept all at once or would I be better off spacing it out into 2 x 10mg doses split 3-4 hours apart? Also same question for the Aniracetem?

    Overall I'm looking for a mental/cognitive boost as I will need it in the coming months due to a recent offer for advancement in my career. I will need to be at my best both mentally and physically. Physically I am doing pretty good and eat a very balance and nutritious diet and work out about 4-5 times a week.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by hsk View Post
    Thanks for the tips regarding the noots. I usually take 3-4g of fish oil in the morning with the rest of my morning supps and firstmeal of the day is always 25g of whey protein, 1, medium orange, 1/2 cup old fashioned rolled oats cooked in water with 2 frozen chicken tenderloins, and I crack 1-2 whole organic free range Omega eggs into the oatmeal/porridge once its almost done so that the yolks will still be bit runny when everything is done. I hope this will be more than enough choline for the noots I plan to take, also I plan on adding CDP Choline to my supplement staples as well so hopefully that will shore any possible choline deficiency.

    I was gonna go slow and work my way up as well just to make sure I can properly gauge reaction. I plan on adding 500mg of CDP Choline to to my daily supplements for at tleast 2-3 weeks before starting on the Aniracetem as as you had suggested. Then I'll slowly add in the Noopept as well. I'll definitely be going slow with the Noopept since anything that makes permanent changes to my brain is something I'd want to go slow and easy on.

    In your opinion though, would 20mg daily be enough to elicit the permanent changes I've read about if used regularly over a long period of time with break in between or would this be too mild of a dose?

    As for dosing, would you recommend taking the 20mg Noopept all at once or would I be better off spacing it out into 2 x 10mg doses split 3-4 hours apart? Also same question for the Aniracetem?

    Overall I'm looking for a mental/cognitive boost as I will need it in the coming months due to a recent offer for advancement in my career. I will need to be at my best both mentally and physically. Physically I am doing pretty good and eat a very balance and nutritious diet and work out about 4-5 times a week.
    In that case, you may want to hold off on that additional choline. Reason being is two-fold. It appears you're getting quite the supply from your diet and more choline is not good either..as it may lead to fatigue, mental fogginess and even symptoms of depression from elevated ACh for prolonged periods. I'd play it by how you feel. You see, you're getting choline from food but you're also taking quite a good dose of EFA's making up for a lot of your requirement in the doses you intend on taking. If you develop headaches after racetam/noopept, you'll know to up your choline intake. Many people say they don't even bother taking a form of choline and reap benefits of noots just as they intended because of their diets and EFA ingestion. Others take it every other day. Aniracetam has a relatively short half-life so 'it's said' that breaking up the dose is best. That is 750-800 and then repeat a 3-4 hrs later. Since it's anxiolytic for me, I tend to use my more 'activating' noots in the morning. I'm on day 30+ of the CILTEP regimen and it's really a nice stack. Alert and focused from 6:30 until about 10:30 at which point I'll either use piracetam, ALCAR, and a bit of Alpha-GPC or Noopept (10mgs) along with a protein shake, snack and some Krill Oil. I take about 3 grams of Omega 3's per day and then a capsule of Krill once or twice...always with Noopept or Aniracetam. When I was using Noopept for what seemed to be too long, for me, I had to take a break because of the irritability/sleep issues. I've tried 20mgs a number of times and for some reason, I'm content with 10mgs. I'd start low, and then work your way up. If you're utilizing a mix of noots at varying times of the day, then I'd mix it up personally. I've always been one that preferred varying regimens. You should try taking both at 2x the amount at once and also splitting the dose up to see what you like best. I generally take my aniracetam (1600mgs) at once at about 1:30pm and it makes me feel fine once it enters into the second phase (just past that initial sedation/anxiolysis point) to the focus/creativity. I like taking ALCAR in the morning with my noot of choice and sulbutiamine with my Aniracetam since I'm already taking in some fats. 200-400mgs of Sulbutiamine is all I need and I'm happy for that. Some people go up too high imo.

    After you've taken a break from Noopept, I'd look into the Acetyl L-Tyrosine/L-Phenylalanine (350mgs-500mgs) + 450mgs Artichoke Extract and 10mgs Coleus Forskohlii first thing upon waking for a while. It's definitely what I'd called a mental/cognitive boost and more discernible than the other racetams barring phenylpiracetam. Even more so than Noopept. But I like Noopept and Aniracetam.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by xsiv1 View Post
    In that case, you may want to hold off on that additional choline. Reason being is two-fold. It appears you're getting quite the supply from your diet and more choline is not good either..as it may lead to fatigue, mental fogginess and even symptoms of depression from elevated ACh for prolonged periods. I'd play it by how you feel. You see, you're getting choline from food but you're also taking quite a good dose of EFA's making up for a lot of your requirement in the doses you intend on taking. If you develop headaches after racetam/noopept, you'll know to up your choline intake. Many people say they don't even bother taking a form of choline and reap benefits of noots just as they intended because of their diets and EFA ingestion. Others take it every other day. Aniracetam has a relatively short half-life so 'it's said' that breaking up the dose is best. That is 750-800 and then repeat a 3-4 hrs later. Since it's anxiolytic for me, I tend to use my more 'activating' noots in the morning. I'm on day 30+ of the CILTEP regimen and it's really a nice stack. Alert and focused from 6:30 until about 10:30 at which point I'll either use piracetam, ALCAR, and a bit of Alpha-GPC or Noopept (10mgs) along with a protein shake, snack and some Krill Oil. I take about 3 grams of Omega 3's per day and then a capsule of Krill once or twice...always with Noopept or Aniracetam. When I was using Noopept for what seemed to be too long, for me, I had to take a break because of the irritability/sleep issues. I've tried 20mgs a number of times and for some reason, I'm content with 10mgs. I'd start low, and then work your way up. If you're utilizing a mix of noots at varying times of the day, then I'd mix it up personally. I've always been one that preferred varying regimens. You should try taking both at 2x the amount at once and also splitting the dose up to see what you like best. I generally take my aniracetam (1600mgs) at once at about 1:30pm and it makes me feel fine once it enters into the second phase (just past that initial sedation/anxiolysis point) to the focus/creativity. I like taking ALCAR in the morning with my noot of choice and sulbutiamine with my Aniracetam since I'm already taking in some fats. 200-400mgs of Sulbutiamine is all I need and I'm happy for that. Some people go up too high imo.

    After you've taken a break from Noopept, I'd look into the Acetyl L-Tyrosine/L-Phenylalanine (350mgs-500mgs) + 450mgs Artichoke Extract and 10mgs Coleus Forskohlii first thing upon waking for a while. It's definitely what I'd called a mental/cognitive boost and more discernible than the other racetams barring phenylpiracetam. Even more so than Noopept. But I like Noopept and Aniracetam.
    I appreciate all the advice and for sharing your experience. I definitely am looking for a more long term and mild approach to building my cognitive performance so I will be trying to get away with as low a dose for everything as possible. Also I've read the the effects of both Ani and Noopept build over time so I would assume taking them regularly is the key. Everything will come capped from SP, Aniracetem (750mg caps) and Noopept (10mg caps), so this should make experimenting with dosage easier.

  12. I also like many of the noops you mention. How about something like this for a stack:

    7am:
    500mg artichoke, 10mg coleus forskolli, 500mg tyrosine

    10am:
    2g piracetam, 500mg alcar, 300 mg alpha gpc

    2pm:
    1.5g aniracetam
    200mg sulbutiamine

  13. I would't take the sulb so late in the day..it sometimes effects my sleep even when I take it early morning.
  14. Re: Mind Steriods or Noots


    Quote Originally Posted by leftside1 View Post
    I also like many of the noops you mention. How about something like this for a stack:

    7am:
    500mg artichoke, 10mg coleus forskolli, 500mg tyrosine

    10am:
    2g piracetam, 500mg alcar, 300 mg alpha gpc

    2pm:
    1.5g aniracetam
    200mg sulbutiamine
    That's basically what I do! Now, I must tell you that there's a whole faction of people, in accordance with the existing research, that say 4.6 grams of piracetam 2X per day and higher is optimal! It's sad, but true. Makes you want to find a cheap source of piracetam or rethink its use eh? Well, for me, I've given 9-10 grams a day an honest shot, and haven't noticed much of a difference between that and 3 grams per day. In fact, once my piracetam supply is out, I'll take a break from it. Inefficient imo, but certainly still useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by RockNRollaX View Post
    I would't take the sulb so late in the day..it sometimes effects my sleep even when I take it early morning.
    True. Assess your tolerance to it by starting 200 in the morning and then later on trying a later dose or another dose. For many like myself, who take it before 2:30, I've never noticed any detriment to sleep. ymmv.... But I like it. Subtle onset and subtle departure.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by xsiv1 View Post
    I wish I had the time to read like that but with little kids, full-time work and working out/household responsibilities, the best chance I get is when I engage in discussion on forums for an hour or so. Soon they'll be old enough to do a lot on their own but normally I'd love to read books like that. I have a couple I got on my tablet that I haven't even touched or opened. Do you have 1 or 2 you'd recommend aside from the ones I mentioned earlier as 'must reads'? I'd appreciate it.
    I'd recommend " Imagine: How Creativity Works" by Lehrer, and "The Eureka Effect" by David Perkins for starters as these are fairly easy reads, yet packed with good info. They talk about learning/creativity from seldom looked into territories.

    I'm just starting to read "The Archaeology of the Mind" by Jaak Panksepp, and this guy is cutting edge on affective knowledge of the MindBrain or feelings/emotions. It looks to be quite valuable to these discussions. He comes in at a different viewpoint on learning/cognition then my other sources, although there is some overlap between him and two others: Kandel and Davidson.

    Jaak gets into fine points about memory and learning, breaking things down to much smaller detail than Kandel has in the two books I've read so far, yet there is a lot "between the lines" in the Kandel books. Jaak goes into how experiments for memories were carried out in labs, and suggests what may have been left out, and states what neurosciences don't know.

    I would say at this point that it's probably a good idea to cycle cognitive enhancers as there is at least two modes in learning and searching for new knowledge, and even these can likely be broken down further. Also there is more than one type of LTP as full learning needs to tap into implicit LTP as well as explicit LTP. Explicit LTP is what we have been talking about on here, and it is the most important memory enhancer in the usual sense, yet implicit memory is the memory of motor skills and other unconscious functions (yes, we do have an unconscious memory) and it has it's own LTP which doesn't use the hippocampus. The whole hippocampus involvement with explicit LTP has a Wow! factor in the way it uses time and spacial context to hold long-term memories that you can consciously recall. Knowing this temporial and spacial context that the hippocampus uses is a big help to building LTP in these memories.

    Panksepp's book is 500 pages and may take about 10 days or so for me to absorb.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    I'd recommend " Imagine: How Creativity Works" by Lehrer, and "The Eureka Effect" by David Perkins for starters as these are fairly easy reads, yet packed with good info. They talk about learning/creativity from seldom looked into territories.

    I'm just starting to read "The Archaeology of the Mind" by Jaak Panksepp, and this guy is cutting edge on affective knowledge of the MindBrain or feelings/emotions. It looks to be quite valuable to these discussions. He comes in at a different viewpoint on learning/cognition then my other sources, although there is some overlap between him and two others: Kandel and Davidson.

    Jaak gets into fine points about memory and learning, breaking things down to much smaller detail than Kandel has in the two books I've read so far, yet there is a lot "between the lines" in the Kandel books. Jaak goes into how experiments for memories were carried out in labs, and suggests what may have been left out, and states what neurosciences don't know.

    I would say at this point that it's probably a good idea to cycle cognitive enhancers as there is at least two modes in learning and searching for new knowledge, and even these can likely be broken down further. Also there is more than one type of LTP as full learning needs to tap into implicit LTP as well as explicit LTP. Explicit LTP is what we have been talking about on here, and it is the most important memory enhancer in the usual sense, yet implicit memory is the memory of motor skills and other unconscious functions (yes, we do have an unconscious memory) and it has it's own LTP which doesn't use the hippocampus. The whole hippocampus involvement with explicit LTP has a Wow! factor in the way it uses time and spacial context to hold long-term memories that you can consciously recall. Knowing this temporial and spacial context that the hippocampus uses is a big help to building LTP in these memories.

    Panksepp's book is 500 pages and may take about 10 days or so for me to absorb.
    Heh, that 500 pages would take me about 100+ days at this point in my life. Interesting info I'd love to delve more deeply into. I'm particularly interested in compounds that increase focus and verbal fluency and others (including mental exercises) that positively affect executive functioning. My other areas of interest involve mood. I seem to have moods that are mostly flat but can go to very irritable in no time flat. I'm looking specifically at my daily nutrition as the potential culprit but somehow doubt that that's the complete answer. I've found various supplements that are doing wonders though and have been solid performers for over a year now. L-theanine (Suntheanine) is a wonderful little compound that may people write off as ineffective but it actually does quite a bit. I'll definitely look into the first two books though and appreciate the tips.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by xsiv1 View Post
    Heh, that 500 pages would take me about 100+ days at this point in my life. Interesting info I'd love to delve more deeply into. I'm particularly interested in compounds that increase focus and verbal fluency and others (including mental exercises) that positively affect executive functioning. My other areas of interest involve mood. I seem to have moods that are mostly flat but can go to very irritable in no time flat. I'm looking specifically at my daily nutrition as the potential culprit but somehow doubt that that's the complete answer. I've found various supplements that are doing wonders though and have been solid performers for over a year now. L-theanine (Suntheanine) is a wonderful little compound that may people write off as ineffective but it actually does quite a bit. I'll definitely look into the first two books though and appreciate the tips.
    The problem with "focus" is you usually need stims and strong stims to get powerful focus. Extra "Attention" to the world can likely be achieved other ways. This is more than just hair-spitting. Although you could get a "relaxed focus" from stuff like aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, or bacopa, but I'd call those relaxed "Attention expanders," as they seem to work by relaxing you so you can sense things you would usually filter out. We filter out more information with ordinary focus, and need to actually relax the filter to achieve expanded attention. Extreme motivation like you need during power-lifting cycles is putting blinders on, and you need to focus on "doing" what you already know, and doing it efficiently and effectively -- Stims, stims, stims. With focus, you are working well with what you knew beforehand, only small new connections are happening between ideas (but these small connects are important, and they are "creative"). Major connects between seemingly unconnected objects and ideas, always happen in a relaxed state, and even though you can be social in a "focused" or get things done state, your social IQ is more powerful when relaxed.

    This is why we need to cycle these noots and stimulants, because sometimes you just need to effectively work with what you already know, and sometimes you need to relax to observe more. Verbal fluency can be promoted by focused attention, as most people already know the words and phrases they want to use so dopamine stimulated neurons would help there. Any extra connections needed would be small and covered by general motivation. Executive function is covered mainly by shear motivation too, and you, again, are not learning much new, just being effective and efficient.

    The thing with lumocity is much of it is speeding up what you already know, and making cognitive motor skills more effective. I could use this, but it is more important for me to expand my explicit mental territory right now in brain science and neurology.

    Having said this, things go back to experience in real life, and to "Play the whole game" as David Perkins says, I've got to do things myself. I haven't tried the explicit LTP supps yet, but I will soon, so I get a feel for how it fits in to this or creates it's own territory.

    Question: I've got 20% forskolin here, so should I go for the 95% stuff or is the kind I have now good enough. I will likely use artichoke extract with it, although I do have quercetin too.

    BTW, If you are anyone else has a better way of looking at these things, do not just negate me, state your own model clearly for discussion. Show how you'd improve on my model. I'm here to learn. I will keep an open mind, and everything I assume right now is very open to an overhaul. I know that reading people like Panksepp will change my paradigm on cognition as an example.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    The problem with "focus" is you usually need stims and strong stims to get powerful focus. Extra "Attention" to the world can likely be achieved other ways. This is more than just hair-spitting. Although you could get a "relaxed focus" from stuff like aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, or bacopa, but I'd call those relaxed "Attention expanders," as they seem to work by relaxing you so you can sense things you would usually filter out. We filter out more information with ordinary focus, and need to actually relax the filter to achieve expanded attention. Extreme motivation like you need during power-lifting cycles is putting blinders on, and you need to focus on "doing" what you already know, and doing it efficiently and effectively -- Stims, stims, stims. With focus, you are working well with what you knew beforehand, only small new connections are happening between ideas (but these small connects are important, and they are "creative"). Major connects between seemingly unconnected objects and ideas, always happen in a relaxed state, and even though you can be social in a "focused" or get things done state, your social IQ is more powerful when relaxed.

    This is why we need to cycle these noots and stimulants, because sometimes you just need to effectively work with what you already know, and sometimes you need to relax to observe more. Verbal fluency can be promoted by focused attention, as most people already know the words and phrases they want to use so dopamine stimulated neurons would help there. Any extra connections needed would be small and covered by general motivation. Executive function is covered mainly by shear motivation too, and you, again, are not learning much new, just being effective and efficient.

    The thing with lumocity is much of it is speeding up what you already know, and making cognitive motor skills more effective. I could use this, but it is more important for me to expand my explicit mental territory right now in brain science and neurology.

    Having said this, things go back to experience in real life, and to "Play the whole game" as David Perkins says, I've got to do things myself. I haven't tried the explicit LTP supps yet, but I will soon, so I get a feel for how it fits in to this or creates it's own territory.

    Question: I've got 20% forskolin here, so should I go for the 95% stuff or is the kind I have now good enough. I will likely use artichoke extract with it, although I do have quercetin too.

    BTW, If you are anyone else has a better way of looking at these things, do not just negate me, state your own model clearly for discussion. Show how you'd improve on my model. I'm here to learn. I will keep an open mind, and everything I assume right now is very open to an overhaul. I know that reading people like Panksepp will change my paradigm on cognition as an example.
    Yes, back n' forth mental exercises work well and there's a site that has shown (for some users on longevity) increased performance directly following a dose of the CILTEP regimen. IIRC, it could be the Cambridge Sciences site somewhere. At first, you might find it too "edgy" like I did, but the edginess, if experienced at all, comes into a clearly awake, alert and focused feeling overall. Decent mood. It's different than a stim feeling even when I combine it with my coffee. I can't take it with quercetin because of a med I'm on but many have said that the 'edge' feeling of using Quercetin is too much. Ymmv here and I'd try both on varying weeks if I were you since you already have Artichoke Extract. Many have found Quercetin to work well or better than AE. Your baseline dose of forskolin should equate to anywhere between 10-15mgs. So, whatever milligram dose you have would be divided by 20 to get the true active extract figure. You have to commit to it for a little while and artichoke extract is known to work well enough for the vast majority of anecdotal reports I've been seeing. Some also go higher with the Forskohlii extract but for whatever reason, I find the common dosage outlined works well for me, and lasts at least 4-5 hrs in terms of a noticeable alertness. Sex drive has improved and so have erections. My mornings feel entirely "clear" and there's no "crash" to speak of in my case. Seemingly rapid onset and a very gradual decline.

    It's funny you mention aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, & bacopa. I use aniractam at 1:30pm with supporting supplements like some Krill but it's usually following a well-balanced lunch. Sparingly, I'll use Sulbutiamine a few days a week and it's a very nice combo in the afternoon. I use Magnesium L-threonate near noon and another 1 at night with some other chelated magnesium (450 total), chelated zinc (15mgs) and a bit of B6 (10-20mgs). I take Bacopa x 2 with my standard supplements at around 6 pm after dinner. I feel like, for me, I've developed the ideal 'cycle' for now. I always mix things up after 2-3 months except for my standard supplementation like vits/mins, EFAs, etc. I do realize the importance of coming off of any compounds but baseline kind of sucks tbh lol. Prior to my workouts, I do find it difficult to not want to utilize a stim of some sort since I have to keep going through a full day of work, my cardio/weight workout, kids and wife come home so we prepare dinner, cleanup, kids homework, baths and finally get to sit back and relax by 8:30-ish. Bed by 10-11 normally. I do cycle my stim use but for now, it's been with varying combos i.e ones that don't have your standard ECA with others. I take weekends off typically. I'm trying Maca for added energy and thus far (haven't finished the bottle), I'm finding no utility in it at all. This has been amongst other natural non-stim supps. I'm fairly energetic for a 40 year old anyways mostly due to vigorous cardio sessions followed by 30 minutes of variable intensity weights depending on how I'm feeling, decent nutrition and at least 7hrs of sleep per night.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by xsiv1 View Post
    Yes, back n' forth mental exercises work well and there's a site that has shown (for some users on longevity) increased performance directly following a dose of the CILTEP regimen. IIRC, it could be the Cambridge Sciences site somewhere. At first, you might find it too "edgy" like I did, but the edginess, if experienced at all, comes into a clearly awake, alert and focused feeling overall. Decent mood. It's different than a stim feeling even when I combine it with my coffee. I can't take it with quercetin because of a med I'm on but many have said that the 'edge' feeling of using Quercetin is too much. Ymmv here and I'd try both on varying weeks if I were you since you already have Artichoke Extract. Many have found Quercetin to work well or better than AE. Your baseline dose of forskolin should equate to anywhere between 10-15mgs. So, whatever milligram dose you have would be divided by 20 to get the true active extract figure. You have to commit to it for a little while and artichoke extract is known to work well enough for the vast majority of anecdotal reports I've been seeing. Some also go higher with the Forskohlii extract but for whatever reason, I find the common dosage outlined works well for me, and lasts at least 4-5 hrs in terms of a noticeable alertness. Sex drive has improved and so have erections. My mornings feel entirely "clear" and there's no "crash" to speak of in my case. Seemingly rapid onset and a very gradual decline.

    It's funny you mention aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, & bacopa. I use aniractam at 1:30pm with supporting supplements like some Krill but it's usually following a well-balanced lunch. Sparingly, I'll use Sulbutiamine a few days a week and it's a very nice combo in the afternoon. I use Magnesium L-threonate near noon and another 1 at night with some other chelated magnesium (450 total), chelated zinc (15mgs) and a bit of B6 (10-20mgs). I take Bacopa x 2 with my standard supplements at around 6 pm after dinner. I feel like, for me, I've developed the ideal 'cycle' for now. I always mix things up after 2-3 months except for my standard supplementation like vits/mins, EFAs, etc. I do realize the importance of coming off of any compounds but baseline kind of sucks tbh lol. Prior to my workouts, I do find it difficult to not want to utilize a stim of some sort since I have to keep going through a full day of work, my cardio/weight workout, kids and wife come home so we prepare dinner, cleanup, kids homework, baths and finally get to sit back and relax by 8:30-ish. Bed by 10-11 normally. I do cycle my stim use but for now, it's been with varying combos i.e ones that don't have your standard ECA with others. I take weekends off typically. I'm trying Maca for added energy and thus far (haven't finished the bottle), I'm finding no utility in it at all. This has been amongst other natural non-stim supps. I'm fairly energetic for a 40 year old anyways mostly due to vigorous cardio sessions followed by 30 minutes of variable intensity weights depending on how I'm feeling, decent nutrition and at least 7hrs of sleep per night.
    Try Rhodiola Rosa -- at just the right levels it gives many an energy boost. I think I should try it and cut down the coffee.

    Yeah, there always seems to be a ton of demands. I had to go into work for several hours, and just got home. I'm drinking a cup of coffee now with some Acetyl L-Carnitine so I can do some reading for several hours. I use aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, & bacopa to help relax me. Sometimes I get upset with the speed of life today.

    You "cycle" during the day, and truth be told so do I usually, as it's difficult to not use at least caffeine during the day. If you get Lehrer's "Imagine," read the chapter on W.H. Auden the famous poet. That was fascinating for me.

    I may try Lumocity when I do the CILTEP regimen, but I'll complete my reading of at least two more brain science books first. Speedy motor skills using all the senses is a big part of the learning process too. Brain scientists will often include this type of learning in the implicit, or subconscious area, but that seems to be a problem with the way they slot knowledge and learning.

  20. In the last 2 1/2 days I've read a little over half of the book, "The Archaeology of the Mind" by Jaak Panksepp. His model of the "Seeking System" introduces to me a whole new paradigm on how the brain works. The old model is the "reward/punishment learning system" created by the behaviorists. Even though behaviorism has fallen out of favor, for the most part, some of it's models for the meaning of learning are still strong in the brain science community. They are so powerful that most brain scientists will not risk their careers by going against the status quo. The Seeking System, it seems to me, is a vastly better way of looking into brain functions, learning, mood, and even how people mature than the old models.

    This is an awesome book (and I never, ever use that type of overstatement, but this is an exception)!

  21. I went and saw my Doc. and he really spent some time with me going over my less than optimal brain function. He said I have a
    low Dopamine output. Instead of taking a more natural approach at this time, he took me off Prozac and put me on Wellbutrin which is more suited for my situation. He wants to try this for a while and get me moving and doing the things I used to enjoy. I have become skeptical about SSRIs, but am going to give this a try. I have read some pretty bad reactions from mixing this one with alcohol, I drink very rarely. This next week my family and I are going to our lakehouse for 6 days and I like to have some beers while sitting on the dock and chilln. If anyone has taken this med. and drank I would like to here your experiences. If I decide to say to hell with SSRIs, what would be some supps. to help with Dopamine output ?????

  22. Quote Originally Posted by RipdnTxs View Post
    I went and saw my Doc. and he really spent some time with me going over my less than optimal brain function. He said I have a
    low Dopamine output. Instead of taking a more natural approach at this time, he took me off Prozac and put me on Wellbutrin which is more suited for my situation. He wants to try this for a while and get me moving and doing the things I used to enjoy. I have become skeptical about SSRIs, but am going to give this a try. I have read some pretty bad reactions from mixing this one with alcohol, I drink very rarely. This next week my family and I are going to our lakehouse for 6 days and I like to have some beers while sitting on the dock and chilln. If anyone has taken this med. and drank I would like to here your experiences. If I decide to say to hell with SSRIs, what would be some supps. to help with Dopamine output ?????
    Ripped,

    N-Acetyl-Tyrosine is a precursor to dopamine and could help.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by RipdnTxs View Post
    I went and saw my Doc. and he really spent some time with me going over my less than optimal brain function. He said I have a
    low Dopamine output. Instead of taking a more natural approach at this time, he took me off Prozac and put me on Wellbutrin which is more suited for my situation. He wants to try this for a while and get me moving and doing the things I used to enjoy. I have become skeptical about SSRIs, but am going to give this a try. I have read some pretty bad reactions from mixing this one with alcohol, I drink very rarely. This next week my family and I are going to our lakehouse for 6 days and I like to have some beers while sitting on the dock and chilln. If anyone has taken this med. and drank I would like to here your experiences. If I decide to say to hell with SSRIs, what would be some supps. to help with Dopamine output ?????
    Yes, in fact, Acetyl L-Tyrosine/DLPA/L-Phenylalanine may all work for you. If you give Wellbutrin a try, you could probably still drink. I know I have with Paxil with no adverse effects. I'd take it slow. Have a couple and assess how you're feeling. You're not going to fly off the rails with a few beers.

  24. I finished Panksepp's book "The Archeology of the Mind." It does answer some questions, but opens many more. The study of the brain from an affective (feelings) viewpoint is relatively new.

    In chap.6 he says, " LTP.....formation has been revealed....in vitro....with slabs of hippocampal tissue. ....Still....there remains a chasm of ignorance between ....LTP and the nature of real life memories."

    Basically he is saying there is always strong involvement in the deeper earlier developed brain parts in the limbic system and even the midbrain for how quickly we learn, and how easy it is for us to retain memories and learning. If you want to learn fast and retain stuff with an iron grip, then fear for your life or fall in love with your interests.

    He is saying much more though, and he does get into the problem with stims, especially for children with a diagnosis of ADHD. Stims make us more able to focus on daily (read boring) subjects, yet they reduce playfulness and seeking mode behavior that reveals totally new info. The seeking mode type behavior is what brings novel things actively into our lives and we tend to get stale and flat if this mode is stressed or turned down.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    Basically he is saying there is always strong involvement in the deeper earlier developed brain parts in the limbic system and even the midbrain for how quickly we learn, and how easy it is for us to retain memories and learning. If you want to learn fast and retain stuff with an iron grip, then fear for your life or fall in love with your interests.

    He is saying much more though, and he does get into the problem with stims, especially for children with a diagnosis of ADHD. Stims make us more able to focus on daily (read boring) subjects, yet they reduce playfulness and seeking mode behavior that reveals totally new info. The seeking mode type behavior is what brings novel things actively into our lives and we tend to get stale and flat if this mode is stressed or turned down.
    Not to be snide, but this is pretty well known, IMO. Talk to a lot of parents that have kids on these drugs and they'll tell you that their kids may do better in studying, but they are zombies. I'd say this is true for older people as well, but the variable of life is always in play with it's everyday stresses, so it would be harder to say if that isn't involved.

    As far as retaining things, I think it goes without say that you are going to remember things you love or that almost killed you, more than things you don't care about.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    As far as retaining things, I think it goes without say that you are going to remember things you love or that almost killed you, more than things you don't care about.
    as well as anything with strong sensory impact even if it doesn't include you having strong feelings about it. Smells in particular are strongly linked to memory.

  27. Absolutely. I can get immediately nostalgic by going out to grab the paper in the morning and smelling the morning air. It will even take me back to being an elementary kid and walking to the bus.

    For me, smell is the strongest link to memories.

  28. I've been taking 600mg of pramiracetam the past week havnt noticed any worth mentioning.. I spend probably about 10-12 hours a week for school and dont feel i have retained any more info than usual. Going to start taking 900 soon

  29. That is a ridiculous amount of prami to need to take. You likely aren't a responder and that is going to get very expensive.

    Typically you will see the people on Longecity taking 1g+ doses to experiment with, but it isn't anything long term. Except for some of the nut jobs over there.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Not to be snide, but this is pretty well known, IMO. Talk to a lot of parents that have kids on these drugs and they'll tell you that their kids may do better in studying, but they are zombies. I'd say this is true for older people as well, but the variable of life is always in play with it's everyday stresses, so it would be harder to say if that isn't involved.

    As far as retaining things, I think it goes without say that you are going to remember things you love or that almost killed you, more than things you don't care about.
    kisaj,

    I totally agree with you that all this is "common knowledge." Yet what Panksepp is saying, is that most brain scientists even today do not include this common knowledge in there experimental concepts. They are still working with behaviorist models of "reward/punishment" when it comes to experimentation with learning, and that does not allow looking into things in these ways.

    Is Pankseep correct about stims? He certainly is with kids on psychostimulants , but with adults it is more iffy. I can think of a couple of comedians on coke who were very playful.

    The problem comes with creating new science that finds better ways of finding new info on deeper neuropaths and networks that actually include them in science in a way of being definite about their influence. Show how these networks interact with the neocortex in the learning process in humans. Most brain science is currently stating that affective or feeling input has very little ability to alter learning or that most emotional content is modulated in the neocortex anyway. There is a theory called the James-Lange concept, and it states that emotions are "fed back" to the neocortex, or the thinking part of the brain, and only then are emotions "experienced." So humans or animals don't have feelings until they "think about" them (and since animals can't think, they don't have real feelings or emotions). There are several versions today of this fed back cognition of emotions. Panksepp just says this is only somewhat true and mostly false, and if brain scientists want to make further progress on understanding things like LTP, and other learning concepts, they need to change their paradigm.

    There are obviously completely other approaches such as "binding with oscillations" which are again new territory in brain research. I have a couple of books ordered that will deal with strengths and weaknesses of various scanning devices, such as fMRI, EEG, MEG, PET scans and more. BTW, the "binding with oscillations" scientists are also looking into the influences of deeper areas of the brain that create wakefulness and strongly influence the executive neocortex areas. The midbrain seems to be the central interest to them and particularly the motor areas, which are very close to the PAG area that Panksepp states is the center of the emotional area.

    Unfortunately, these are both unexplored territories for the most part.
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