Mind Steriods or Noots
- 01-28-2013, 06:50 PM
- 01-28-2013, 07:26 PM
Ani should always be taken with some healthy fats anyways. I take mine with Krill Oil caps if I can't take it with a meal because of it's quick absorption. Ani also has an anxiolytic component to it as well not evidenced in the likes of Piracetam or Prami. It does stack decent, in my experience with 10mgs Noopept but I rarely take it first thing in the morning. Normally, I'd dose it at 1500-1600mgs with some fish oils or a meal and that's about it for the day. I'll cycle on and off various noots every few months. If you haven't tried 500mgs of a dopamine precursor like L-Phen/ or acetyl l-tyrosine + 450mgs artichoke extract and 10mgs coleus forskolii, it's relatively cheap and I, like others, have had significant results with it in terms of focus, alertness, cognition and overall mood. Google Long Term Potentiation and Artichoke Extract and it should take you to some info on this stack...gaining quite the popularity even by longtime noot users. I picked it up just based on user experiences and because it was cheap. Already had the dopamine precursor anyways. Worth the money and I'm on day 8 or 9, used first thing in the morning with my medium coffee. Nice effect.
- 01-28-2013, 07:51 PM
01-28-2013, 08:24 PM
01-28-2013, 09:22 PM
01-28-2013, 09:51 PM
I read through a couple of threads on the coleus forskolii + artichoke + other things. The coleus forskolii is the prime supplement here. I may check out new info on it. Some people said it can get too strong, others suggested it worked well for a while then became negative in some way or another. The artichoke was a compromise as another stronger sup was used earlier.
01-28-2013, 10:18 PM
Yes, you're right in a number of things. For one, I always cycle off my noots. I was on 2 months of Noopept and decided to just come off for a month or so despite some noticeable and positive effects. I don't take the aforementioned CILTEP regimen on the weekends as I know that the dopamine precursors can also lose their ooomph. Artichoke extract seems to have less sides than some of the other things people tried from what I've read. I know Coleus Forskolii has it's own beneficial effects but I think the dopamine precursor, combined with some caffeine help make me more alert and focused in the morning regardless..and the effects seem to last longer than any of the stims I've tried in the past although i've never tried any pharm or illicit stims (barring coke in my younger days...never quite cared for it..tG) There are a number of supps you can use to inhibit PDE4 but many carry their own host of adverse effects. Anyways, it's not like a blow your mind nootropic thus far, but I obviously have to use it for a couple months to give it a fair shot at what it's supposed to do. I haven't found it to be too strong and I'm kind of sensitive to L-Tyrosine in that it makes me irritable. I've, in the past, had much more success (when trying to boost mood only) with DLPA (go figure). I'll switch up between L-Phenylalanine (500mgs) or 350mgs Acetyl L-Tyrosine just to see if I notice anything different. Tomorrow, instead of the caffeine, I will try 200mgs of Sulbutiamine instead. Anyways, since I can't post the link, I found this summation of the CILTEP regimen to be nice.
The stack works by inducing long-term potentiation, which is an enhancement of signal transmission between two neurons that results from stimulating both of them at the same time. LTP is a major underlying factor in synaptic plasticity, and is considered one of the major cellular mechanisms that underlies learning and memory. 
The need for synaptic activation of LTP can be bypassed by taking supplements which raise cAMP concentrations, combined with a PDE4 inhibitor to prevent the depletion of cAMP. 
Dopamine has also been implicated in playing a role in LTP. Through PDE4 inhibition and increased cAMP concentrations, this stack regimen improves the effectiveness at dopamine functioning more effective at triggering learning and memory processes. The normal chemical dynamics of the dopamine system are preserved, which prevents down-regulation of the dopamine receptors. 
Forskolin (5 – 15 mg) – Forskolin works to increase levels of cAMP. The dosage listed is the amount of the active ingredient in an extract. So if you purchase 200 mg capsules of 10% extract, each capsule will have 20 mg of Forskolin.
Artichoke Extract (~ 500 mg) – Artichoke extract is a fairly selective PDE4 inhibitor at recommended doses. While this regimen was being refined many other PDE4 inhibitors were tried, however most were found to have adverse side effects.
Phenylalanine or Other Dopamine Precursor (~500 mg) – Research has shown that increased intracellular cAMP increases the rate of dopamine synthesis.  In addition, the cascade effect that leads to induced LTP requires dopamine receptor activation.  For this reason, you’ll want to make sure you keep your brain well stocked with the raw materials it needs to create additional dopamine. See below for possible choices. Phenylalanine is the recommended dopamine precursor to use, as it is typically well tolerated by most people. Tyrosine is another decent choice, through it has caused adverse side effects in some.
Optional Stimulant – One hole in this regimen is that it doesn’t directly provide a boost to drive or executive function. Many have plugged this gap by taking a stimulant along with the regimen. A moderate dose of caffeine (~ 100 mg) is the safest choice in this regard, and synergies well with the regimen because it blocks increased PDE4 activity due to endogenous adenoside acting on the A2A receptor. 
Sulbutiamine is another safe choice to improve motivation and drive. It is a nootropic which provides boosts to motivation and mental energy without the side effects typically associated with traditional stimulants. Amphetamines work well with this stack, but keep in mind that this regimen dramatically potentates stimulants. If you typically take 20 mg of adderall, for example, don’t exceed 5 mg when using this regimen.
Using The Regimen
This regimen is somewhat stimulating, so to avoid insomnia it is best taken first thing in the morning, before eating. Don’t exceed the recommended doses by too much, as fatigue can set in after continuous use at high doses.
It is also recommended that you cease taking other supplements when you start this regimen, then slowly introduce them back to gauge if they will alter its effects.
When purchasing Forskolin, look for the highest potency extract as possible. Non-active plant matter in Forskolii has been shown to increase liver enzymes at high doses. Though it doesn’t appear to cause any permanent damage, a high potency extract will lack the plant matter responsible for this. Also, supplementing with Milk Thisle is a good idea if you want to be cautious.
Don’t exceed the recommended doses. Doses of Forskolin exceeding 15 mg have been shown to cause fatigue after days to weeks of continuous use. If you experience this side effect, cease the use of the stack for 3 days, and consume 8 mg of Galantamine for each of those 3 days. You may then resume taking the stack.
Artichoke extract is less selective in its PDE inhibition at higher doses, and could potentially cause sexual side effects at very high doses due to PDE5 inhibition. Drugs such as Viagra work by inhibiting PDE5.
Early in the original thread, Hasperidin was considered as a possible addition to the stack. Unfortunately, after a few days of use it caused daytime drowsiness and other adverse side effects. It was determined to not be a good addition to the stack.
Whether or not combining ‘racetams with this stack is still up for debate. Many state that a ‘racetam could be a good addition because this stack only targets long-term memory. It is universally accepted that Aniracetam does not mix well with this stack, however.
For more nootropic regimens, and to learn how to use nootropics, mental exercise, and lifestyle changes to maximize your cognitive performance, check out our free cognitive enhancement ecourse. Sign up and get the first chapter of Building Brainpower for free!
To learn more about this regimen, read the original thread in which it was created.
h t t p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16672292
h t t p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21984943
ht tp://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20969573
ht tp s://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17064352
htt p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21057772
htt p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9282956#
02-15-2013, 05:37 PM
Heck of a post xsiv, I wonder why you say Aniracetam doesn't mix well here, is it too AMPA stimulation?
02-15-2013, 10:14 PM
Unsure why that's been reported, but its all anecdotal. The original thread is on longevity along with many members who've tried variations. I personally like aniracetam so have been reserving it for weekends as of late.
02-22-2013, 05:36 PM
Ah nice, yea I love Ani too. I typically use the weekends as a break from it, the head sharpening + anxiolytic quality makes it perfect for my work.
02-22-2013, 08:14 PM
I've read Eric Kandel's "In Search of Memory," and Jeff Hawkin's "On Intelligence" over the last few days. Kandel is one
of the main scientists working on LTP, and Hawkins is an engineer with a facination for brain science who has taken his
fortune made from mobile computing devices, and started his own brain institution in 2002. Hawkins has created a theory
where he places the hippocampus at the top rung of the neocortex for consolidating memory. Good theory, as it makes
many things work together that wouldn't fit without this idea.
It is the hippocampus that has "place" cells that probabably help us put things in a spacial context. Hawkins adds that the
hippocampus also has a time relating ability too. Without a space and time holding ability we cannot create initial long
term memories. The hippocampus processes these memories for one to three years and then sends them back to the areas
in the neocortex that first worked with them.
In simple terms: Tom Hanks as the Captain in "Saving Private Ryan," replied, after Ryan told him he couldn't remember
his brothers' faces, "You need a context." When Ryan remembered the barn episode, he remembered the faces of his
The interesting thing about the hippocampus is it is both capable of making new axions and strengthening synapes, and it
can actually grow new neurons by using stim cells. The rest of the neocortex can strengthen synapes, with new axions and
branches, but there is no proof that neurons can be replaced. The hippocampus also has the highest death rate of neu rons
under all conditions, but especially bad conditions such as depression or extreme stress. LTP goes on in the hippocampus
I'm interested in much more than LTP though as the whole area of "Attention" is a study onto it's own. William James had
some interesting things to say about it over a 100 years ago. Also when the mind goes into "search mode" or has clues but
needs to discover modulating territory to solve difficult "Aha!" type answers, and how playfulness effects attention and the
mind. Eric Kandel said that attention is one of his greatest interests (as of 2007) when he wrote "In Search of Memory" He would use his typical bottom-up methods of looking into hippocampus place cells first.
02-22-2013, 09:36 PM
02-22-2013, 09:48 PM
02-22-2013, 10:54 PM
The last thing I did this afternoon since it was Friday was dose with 500mgs Quercetin and then 30 minutes later, 500 mgs of PEA followed by a small coffee on the way to Best Buy after work. Very pleasant feeling but not inebriating, didn't cause nausea and I could use a relatively small dose of PEA and have it last for 2-3 hrs. Unheard of when taking PEA alone. I realize it's an 'occasional' and sporadic thing to do...but for a Friday afternoon, it was actually pretty good.. I was already pretty happy that it was the weekend, and this just solidified it that much more. More on this later...it's sexy time here.
02-23-2013, 08:45 PM
Ani seems to be a relaxing racetam. Relaxed intelligence is good for searching or seeking modes of thinking and alpha states, also a different kind of playfulness flows than the more aggressive stim playfulness one gets from dopamine highs. If LTP heightening has a stim effect, that is only a small part of it. It does seem to be enhanced by a moderate dose of stims.
I purchased Eric Kandel's book and Jeff Hawkins' book because they come at brain science from two different directions. Eric's is a bottom-upward (from cells, simple biology, and neurochemistry to brain function), and Jeff's is top-downward (form an overall theory of brain/intelligence and see how the parts work). When searching for answers it is good to combine the bests sources of each of these to get answers.
I may buy Kandel's 1760 page text for graduate level neurophysiologists in it's 2012 edition, but not quite ready for that yet. I will read Kandel's "The Age of Insight," next as I have that already. He has a rather large chapter in there about top-down processing, where he states that most of the time people have to deal with details for survival, and that is bottom-up processing.
02-24-2013, 05:22 PM
I got in some more Aniractam from the same place Ive ordered before. My Doc. has taken me off Paxil and put me on low dose Prozac to help with coming off Paxil (awful by the way) and am planning on coming off Prozac under his care in the near future and try a natural approach to get my anxiety and depression under control. The first time I tried the Ani/AGPC while on Pax. the first week or so it was great and then seemd to fade the longer I took the combo daily,750 Ani/500AGPC twice a day. Yesterday I took the same as before and by the end of the day I felt about as depressed as I can remember, it was not a good day. I had a good nights rest last night and seem to be feeling mentally better today, I did not take the combo today. I,m not sure why the negative reaction yesterday. Ideas !!!! anyone...
02-24-2013, 08:01 PM
How long have you been on SSRIs? Ani has anti anxiety properties, but is not known to reduce depression, I believe. I really don't know much about this area, but I'm currently looking into emotional connections in the brain. Many problems seem to be around the connections between the hippocampus and the amygdala. That doesn't help you much at this point, and I'm not sure even the top scientists/pros in these areas have easy answers. Once I know more about the basics and the wiring/connections in the brain, I would like to go out and read the current papers on whats going on in the difficult area of depression. Neuron death in the hippocampus is often involved in depression, and the major factor in that is too much of the wrong kinds of stress.
The obvious thing is how long you've been on SSRIs and how strong the doses. All of these drugs can have sides that can lead to depression, in spite of the fact that they are supposed to help depression.
You might try aerobic exercise several times a week if you are not already, and mindfulness meditation (belly breathing, general awareness, and relaxed state). And I'm not recommending it, as I have not tried it yet, but the CILTEP protocol that xsiv1 talked about above is known to strengthen synapses. Aerobic exercise is known to use stim cells to create new fresh neurons in the hippocampus.
Mindfulness meditation is a long-term solution, so I don't usually talk much about it, but it is all about rewiring the brain to a better state. OCD, thought to be a brain wiring problem from birth, has been cured by mindful meditation in a fair number of cases. There is a book on Amazon on using Mindfulness to overcome depression called, "The Mindful Way Through Depression."
02-24-2013, 09:30 PM
I can offer you some advice I think. One of the reasons I avoid Quercetin as much as I can, is because it exhibits some weak MAOi properties which are contraindicated while using an SSRI. I've used various compounds that technically interfere with Paxil but I've been on it so long that I haven't come close to experiencing any type of Serotonin syndrome. There are a number of natural supplements you can use to help you with anxiety, sleep, and even depression. Unfortunately, you have to be careful with the compounds that exhibit serotonin-enhancing effects while on any AD. You could get away with Rhodiola use I'd think. I use a cocktail called Stress-Assist by futurebiotics and it contains some Ashwaghanda, Rhodiola, B vits and, imo, most importantly a quality L-theanine product. Many people don't feel the effects of L-theanine or they're too subtle, but, Suntheanine specifically, works! It helps to block excessive glutamate (your body's chief excitatory neurotransmitter) and it also assists in upregulating Gaba receptors. It can present some nootropic properties when combined with caffeine but, in essence, it promotes the brain's alpha waves which are responsible for a relaxed, yet alert state. Bacopa Monnieri is another one that displays nootropic properties, doesn't downregulate gaba, and is an effective anxiolytic. Honokiol extract is another one that I have experience with and know to be effective. You'll find an abundance of novel and not so novel compounds that'll work for you - this I guarantee. What you're going through should never have happened. If the FDA, big Pharma, pdocs, and even to an extent, family physicians exercised their due diligence (to prevent harm), they'd have taken you off Paxil at the first signs of remission. Unfortunately, for me, many doctors didn't know enough about them and they're not the only ones to blame. We need to be the primary advocates for our own health as well.. Keeping apprised on information/research for any pharmaceutical medication you're put on is pretty important. What I do, is I mix up my regimens and keep my body guessing for the most part. Aniracetam is fine and should help you cognitively speaking but it's anxiolytic action isn't that pronounced. For an extensive list of helpful anti-anxiety compounds, you could look to this thread: longecity . org/forum/topic/54028-treating-anxiety-safely-effectively/ or google it since I can't post links yet.
Word of caution. Scienceguy is a bright dude, but I don't think he has a good grasp on the value of pharmaceutical drugs (when they're needed - which I can still respect) and the role Gaba agonists can play when treating people effectively. The key with any gaba agonist is eliminating chronic use or abuse. Used sparingly, they make for wonderful anxiolytic compounds. I'd disregard his DO NOT TAKE list, only if you're not prone to addiction. Compounds such as phenibut (if you're a positive responder) make wonderful therapeutic alternatives to pharms only when used once in a while. I'd refrain from using it more than once a week..but that's me. Anyways, I know a lot about this because I've been in your shoes so-to-speak and have read hundreds of pages of information. One book that I've enjoyed reading is Eric Braverman's The Edge Effect. It's pretty good.
02-24-2013, 09:43 PM
I know Im not much help in the line of mental health as its the blind leading the dumb hear.
I've got severe anxiety with mild depression. I was so wound up that i was always busier than a cat trying to bury ****. So much to the point to where i was diagnosed with add. Still think i have that but that's another topic.
Long story short, i got put on lexpro @ 10mg po qd. It changed my life for the better. Lexapro is an ssri but it is much better than pail or prosaic at treating both anxiety and depression.
In my journey i have discovered noots. i haven't tried them all, but i currently take prami concurrent with ny ssri and the effects are amplified tremendously. Im always able to focus. I am always happy. Not that odd happy valley kind of happy but a true feeling of happiness and calmness. I don't have the lack of feelings and emotions that many people on paxil and prozac experience. I also haven't had any sexual side effects aside from a little bit of had tIm getting off when i first started. That went away after about a week. But again, more on that later. And i don't feel like Im about to always come unglued. it really has made me a better me. I've been doin this for close to 6 months now and its been wonderfull. I still get stressed obviously. It doesn't make the stress go away, it just makes it so much more manageable and i feel like i can handle it and not be overwhelmed. It really always does give me that light at the end of the tunnel that we that suffer from gad are always searching for.
My add was originally treated with adderall as most ppl are. That obviously made my issues worse. And the sexual sides from the Lexapro haven't been anything but good. Im still hard as a rock and who doesn't like lasting 20 or 30 minutes in bed? I mean really? I love it, most importantly my wife loves it, and frankly it makes you feel pretty good that you can make peter north look like a 15 year old first timer. I say that cause many ssris (especially paxil) are notorious for offing with your sex life and Lexapro hasn't done anything but be of benefit to mine.
Hope this helps man
02-24-2013, 09:44 PM
I should also note that you may get some great effects from the CILTEP regimen. It really keeps you focused, alert, and in a decent mood for the first half of your day. I wouldn't be surprised by these affects within the first week of it...and the plus to it - it's cheap. Worth a shot. Last thing I wanted to mention that I really think will be of some help to you...is to try Magnesium L-Threonate. 3 per day. Best magnesium supplement I've ever tried.
02-24-2013, 09:54 PM
02-25-2013, 04:51 PM
02-25-2013, 08:07 PM
02-25-2013, 08:54 PM
One of the new things I've found out is that the visual cortex comes close to shutting down, even when eyes are open, when the brain goes into seeking/searching mode. David Perkins, the Harvard, Learning about Learning expert, has a couple whole books dealing with search mode thinking and Aha! moments.
The visual cortex on the other hand is the most studied area of how the brain is wired and Jeff Hawkins uses that visual cortex info as his major understanding of how the brain is wired for intelligence. His approach is extremely valuable for new AI program paradigms, but it is obviously missing both affective intelligence (feelings and emotions), and search mode intelligence. He has some gloss-over explanation of how search mode intelligence works that has some truth, but probably misses main points. He just doesn't care about affective intelligence, at least at this time. Affective intelligence is extremely important to the frontal cortex though as much of the affective stuff goes back and forth to there from other regions. People missing or handicapped in these areas make lousy life decisions.
My major interest here is deconstructing a movie like "Limitless" and seeing how much is total fantasy because it just cannot be done, or conflicts that exist in the brain, as in -- if you enhance one area you may slow down another area of cognition. Yet even using cycling to keep conflicts at bay, just how much can we do at this time to enhance normal cognition. Not "Limitless" abilities, but huge improvements.
02-27-2013, 01:06 AM
I've got my work cut out for me if I'm to follow up on this. I need to understand feelings and emotions (affective cognition), and how it interacts with all the other cognitive abilities.
I've decided to concentrate on about 5 authors at this point with some others giving occasional extra info. I've read about 25% of Kandel's "The Age of Insight," and he engages art and the unconscious as part of his observations. Kandel is an art enthusiast, has an MD, and is a trained psychoanalyst. He insists on working scientifically in areas where several science disciples come together. I've read half of "The Emotional Life of Your Brain" by Richard Davidson. The book is too pop culture in some areas, but is good science in others, and it illuminates areas of the affective brain that are hard to find elsewhere. I just received V.S. Ramachandran's "Phantoms In the Brain" today. This guy is very accessible in his writing (as are the two above scientists). He is known for his innovative problem solving style using everyday tools, rather than an expensive lab, to solve brain mysteries.
Tomorrow I will receive "The Archaeology of Mind: Neuroevolutionary Origins of Human Emotions" by Jaak Pankseep. A large section of his book seems to be about the positive emotions, which are seldom explored scientifically, and he has a major focus on playfulness and seeking behavior. Great promise here, but I haven't read it yet. Jaak, like Davidson, studies almost exclusively how the affective area of the brain connect with the "higher" cognitive area, and what the results are with that connectivity.
The fifth book is "Imagine: How Creativity Works" by Johan Lehrer, and I've already read it, but shall read it again after the new resources. I have a strong respect for Johan and how he demonstrates how creativity is more than one thing, and in the end takes a lot of group interaction to reach a peak.
This should all be done in in 5-6 weeks, then I will relax and see what new understanding arrives.
I'm not overwhelmed by this at all. My dopamine neurons are salivating to get at this stuff. All these sources are highly readable.
There are a number of other books that I shall occasionally look into such as David Perkin's material on using art to instill great learning skills, yet none of the these others are central now
02-27-2013, 09:54 AM
Exercising the brain is still going to produce the most significant effects cognitively. Dual n Back training and sites like Lumosity have the most remarkable results in terms of efficiency. They enhance memory, improve abstract thinking and logical deduction. Combined with nootropics and other supplements, it (among other mental exercises) and regular exercise/good nutrition will optimize results for mind and body. Now, if one already exhibits some neuropathology, the question remains as to what would work best and for the most part, a lot of it is through experimentation and regular trial and error.
02-27-2013, 10:56 AM
How this plays into the sides...i dunno. But as with all things in life and physiology balance is key
02-28-2013, 09:54 AM
Thanks for the responses guys,thats alot to think about. The interesting thing is, the next day I took no FXT or the combo and felt great all day like I did the first time with the Ani combo. My mind felt calm and clear all day. I also take Klonipin 1mg a day, Ive been taking this for a little over two years. I have never tried Prami., so I may give this a shot in the future. In the last year I have also become the guy I used to make fun of. I hardly ever go to the gym anymore, yet I still pay my monthly dues. I also have chronic sleep apnea and after about two months of trying different masks I have finally found one that is working. The SSRIs and almost suffocating every night, I,m sure are some of the reasons I feel like a different person, as in unmotivated about most things in life. I used to live for exercise, most any kind. I gotta get up off my arse and just get started again. I now understand how hard it is to get started again......
02-28-2013, 11:23 AM
Rip, I often find that after days of somewhat heavy supp/noot use, when I take a break for a day or two those days are sometimes more relaxed and focused than the 'on' days. Many of these compounds can build up and have synergistic effects, I feel it often a case of too much of a good thing, and in fact it's the breaks that allows the balance that I think we all seek. When I stay on any one thing for too long it usually ends up making me feel run down and I need more and more.
As for the physical part where you're at. You need to let yourself off the hook. Trust me, I've been there, It's a slippery slope I know and the farther down you slide the more and more you just end up saying f-it. But it's not as hard to climb out of this as you may think. Forgive yourself of what you failed to do yesterday, last week, last month, etc. Today is always the most important day of your life. Make the decision you want to make today, and tomorrow it gets a little easier. Speak positively to yourself, it makes all the difference. Goodluck.
02-28-2013, 12:11 PM
True. Don't beat yourself up over what you've been or haven't been doing and make an effort to start changing today. You can't change what is done, only improve going forward. Make no mistake that complacency and stagnation will kill the body and mind, so there is no doubt it has an effect on how you feel. Get your body physically active again- slowly, and you'll be surprised how other things start improving.
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