When did the gains kick in on p-plex

[hardknock]

I don't agree if the anabolic is legit , he can train for 6 days a week with no problems

If he's at 1000 calories and w/o 6 days a week then I do not care if he's taking in all the best known prohormones, aas or whatever, he ain't getting jack snip for his efforts.
That's been proven time and time again.

 

[hardknock]

and to each his own.

That was also with me running the original pp, so I do not know if that made a difference...

 

[dkkon1]

Indiana I was just wondering how you decided that 2200 was maint. cal for you, I'm not doubting you bro (I'm not beating you up ) It's just that I'm under 190lbs and my maintenance is about 3100cals a day. If I eat any less I drop weight like crazy but if i kick up the cals to 4000+ I gain muscle (and a little fat of course) like crazy. Maybe you should do some experimenting after your cycle is over and see if you can figure out what the hold-up is. Good luck bro.

 

[nunes]

So are you saying the reason why M-drol and P-plex (especially P-plex) didn't work for me is because my liver was too strong ?
And somebody on this site once told me that running Cycle Support( cause of the Milk Thistle) can really hurt your gains too

I really don't know if that is the reason but unfortunately my results with orals are very disappointing also, so my statement is just a supposition .

do you take NAC, grape seed extract, and other potent antioxidants? do you take SAM-e for liver protection? i think you should try that if you haven't already. most use milk thistle, which is really not the greatest thing for the liver. yes it works, no it is not the best option. it also negatively affects your androgen receptors while you are taking exogenous male hormones into your system. on a side note, juice. period. lol

I`m not question your post but yes I take milk thistle, is there any scientific backup to support your statement?

 

[Indiana Jones]

Indiana I was just wondering how you decided that 2200 was maint. cal for you, I'm not doubting you bro (I'm not beating you up ) It's just that I'm under 190lbs and my maintenance is about 3100cals a day. If I eat any less I drop weight like crazy but if i kick up the cals to 4000+ I gain muscle (and a little fat of course) like crazy. Maybe you should do some experimenting after your cycle is over and see if you can figure out what the hold-up is. Good luck bro.

I used the BMR calculator (Harrison Benedict formula) and then factored in my activity levels. But more importantly I did a lot of trial and error in the past and present and I do gain weight when I eat over that number. Just not the type of weight you expect to gain off of Superdrol and Phera clones. I put on some fat during my cycle so I was eating enough.

 

[Indiana Jones]

I really don't know if that is the reason but unfortunately my results with orals are very disappointing also, so my statement is just a supposition .

So would running D-bol some time in the future be a waste if it's my liver which doesn't allow me to respond well to PH. Or would D-bol be on a whole nother level.

 

[Brian5225]

So would running D-bol some time in the future be a waste if it's my liver which doesn't allow me to respond well to PH. Or would D-bol be on a whole nother level.

I would have to say that it's basically on the same level. Sure, d-bol has been around for a much longer time, but they are both very active steroids, and this has been shown by research and anecdotal evidence. So IMO you're dealing with stuff that's on the same level. And I don't want to get flamed for saying that, I just mean in terms of potency, SD is right up there.

 

[nunes]

So would running D-bol some time in the future be a waste if it's my liver which doesn't allow me to respond well to PH. Or would D-bol be on a whole nother level.

I think that's the reason why some see gains only with 10mgs and others have to run at least 30...
god news are , pct is easier cause your liver do a good job,lol

 

[Indiana Jones]

if you ran dbol at say 25mg per day for 6 weeks and did not gain 10lbs, YOU did something wrong. i say go for it :head:

I don't know man. If M-drol and P-plex, two very strong PH, did nothing for me why should I expect D-bol to do something. I did a little research and I saw that a few other people didn't respond to D-bol either, I'm assuming they may have the same liver issue as I do.

 

[nunes]

I don't know man. If M-drol and P-plex, two very strong PH, did nothing for me why should I expect D-bol to do something. I did a little research and I saw that a few other people didn't respond to D-bol either, I'm assuming they may have the same liver issue as I do.

go to pin yourself bro

 

[Indiana Jones]

go to pin yourself bro

yeah that seems like the only thing that would work

 

[nunes]

last try

yeah that seems like the only thing that would work

wednesday I will begin with my last oral only cycle , I decided to do this to see the logic of the above , guess what the orals will be?
d-bol 25mg ed and primo 100mg ed for 3 weeks and then 2 more with same dosage of primo and 6 caps of 11-oxo ed .
this baby's should be all legit so no bunk possibilities here(I hope)
I believe this will be of great interest to you so I`ll keep you updated.

if you ran dbol at say 25mg per day for 6 weeks and did not gain 10lbs, YOU did something wrong. i say go for it :head:

hey bass , can you help me with milk thistle thing?
I was really planning on using it on cycle...

 

[nunes]

well milk thistle does help your liver regenerate, but it's not the best option for us bodybuilders while on cycle. it negatively affects your androgen receptors which can hinder your gains. i do not know through what mechanism of action this occurs, but it does none the less. i was reading thru the PDR in my pharmacy the other day. it's a book with a LOT of info on MANY OTC herbs, medicines, plants, etc. it said and i quote "patients taking exogenous male hormones i.e. testosterone, should not supplement with milk thistle." it UNFORTUNATELY did not state WHY.

Dr. Hauser has said before that it has a negative affect on the androgen receptors, which means your body would not respond as well to any androgens that you are taking on cycle. NAC, grape seed extract, green tea, and other good antioxidants really help the liver a lot when it comes to ridding the body of toxins. they speed up the process and make t easier for the liver to filter them out. also, i have and will continue to use SAM-e as my liver supp while on. it also helps your mood, cholesterol, and many other things. it worked excellent on my very long and suppressive p-plex/SD bridge cycle. i only use thistle as a pre-load and during PCT at 2,000mg daily. SAM-e isn't cheap though, that's the problem :sad:

you`re right about MT, found this:sad::


Milk Thistle: Good for Livers, Potentially Bad for Gains
Title: Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclearlocalization of the receptor in the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.Authors: Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.Source: Carcinogenesis 2001 Sep;22(9):1399-403
Research Summary
Agents with novel mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of Milk Thistle, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line by stopping the cell cycle without causing cell death. This study further demonstrates the potential molecular mechanism by which Milk Thistle acts on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that Silymarin (SM) and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2).Additionally, for the first time, we show that SM and SB diminished transactivation activity of the AR. However, SM did not affect AR levels and steroid-binding ability of total AR in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens. This study provides a new insight into how Milk Thistle negatively modulates androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

Discussion

Milk Thistle is a popular bodybuilding supplement and is currently the most well researched plant for the treatment of liver disease (with over 450 published peer review papers). Silymarin, a flavonoid extract from Milk Thistle, has been used clinically for alcoholic liver disease treatment in Europe and Asia for almost 2,000 years. Currently it’s used by bodybuilders as a protective measure for the liver when using high doses of orals.Silymarin is not water soluble and is typically administered as an encapsulated standardized extract. The absorption with oral administration is rather low, with only two to three percent being effectively taken up. The peak plasma levels after an oral dose are achieved in four to six hours. The reason this study is significant is because of the described mechanism that Milk Thistle is working in the prostate. It is showing effectiveness in treating prostate cancer because it prevents the androgen receptor from making it to the nucleus of the cell. This may be good if you are fighting cancer of the prostate, but it is bad if you are trying to get a muscle cell to grow larger.In order for testosterone to work, it must pass from the blood to the inside of a muscle cell, bind to the androgen receptor inside the cell, then travel inside the nucleus where it binds to your DNA.These researchers were able to show that Milk Thistle did not reduce the number of androgen receptors, nor did it prevent androgens (i.e., testosterone) from binding to the receptors. All it seemed to do was prevent the androgen receptor from traveling to the nucleus, and in our case, this prevents the desired effect. The androgen receptor, once bound to the androgen, must make it to the nucleus in order to increase protein synthesis.Bottom line: Use Milk Thistle if you are sure you are having liver toxicity problems. Then, only use it for a few weeks at a time. There are other herbs with tremendous hepatoprotective effects, so you might give them a try instead.

 

[nunes]

good read bro, thanks for digging that up. reps :hammer:

No bro, thanks to you for opening my eyes to this subject, repped back :thumbsup:

 

[ezza]

hmmm can someone please explain to me why your liver would have anything to do with a methyl steroid not working? i was under the impression the whole idea of being methylated is so that your liver CANNOT break it down ....making methyl steroids almost 100% bioavailable.... good work on the milk thistle info too boys!

 

[nunes]

hmmm can someone please explain to me why your liver would have anything to do with a methyl steroid not working? i was under the impression the whole idea of being methylated is so that your liver CANNOT break it down ....making methyl steroids almost 100% bioavailable.... !

that's absolutely right but what I see in the real world is different individuals having different results with same compounds and same dosages and even same diet:fool2:, I wish to have a better knowledge why this happens but unfortunately I cant help you better on that one, lol:lol:

 

[Ziquor]

hmmm can someone please explain to me why your liver would have anything to do with a methyl steroid not working? i was under the impression the whole idea of being methylated is so that your liver CANNOT break it down ....making methyl steroids almost 100% bioavailable.... good work on the milk thistle info too boys!

Interesting point. Methylation 'protects' steroids from being destroyed by the liver so they keep passing through you body until they're 100% absorbed, hence 100% oral bioavailability.

 

[nunes]

Interesting point. Methylation 'protects' steroids from being destroyed by the liver so they keep passing through you body until they're 100% absorbed, hence 100% oral bioavailability.

I believe methylation protects a lot the steroid for being destroyed by the liver but not 100%, in anabolics 2007 Llewellyn refers that they should be taken empty stomach to increase absorption and see this from PA also:
17alpha alkylated steroids

Scientists have developed several synthetic testosterone derivatives that have increased oral bioavailability. The first synthetic alteration that scientists utilized is known as 17 alpha alkylation. 17a alkylation involves the addition of an alkyl group (methyl or ethyl) to the alpha position of the 17 carbon of the steroid backbone. The alkylation at this position prevents the major route of androgen deactivaton – oxidation to a 17-keto steroid - from taking place. This allows a large part of the steroid to avoid liver first pass metabolic degradation. Examples of 17a alkylated steroids are methyltestosterone and Norethandrolone (Nilevar)
While 17a alkylation is a very effective means of rendering steroids orally active, it suffers from a serious drawback. These steroids are all to some extent toxic to the liver. Some are more toxic than others, but they all have been associated with this problem. Jaundice is not completely uncommon with the usage of this stuff, although this condition is generally confined to individuals who are predisposed to liver problems. Several cases of liver cancer have supposedly been linked to 17a alkylated steroids, however, nothing definitive has been established in this regard. On the other hand, it is somewhat common to observe increases in blood test indicators of liver stress such as BSP retention, and intrahepatic cholestasis (a condition where bile clogs up and stops flowing from the liver).

While the dangers of 17a alkylated steroids are not trivial, they still comprise some of the most potent anabolic agents available, and therefore their use continues. Most smart bodybuilders are aware of the potential toxicities of these steroids, and therefore they are judicious with their use of them


notice the bold, large part not 100%, it may depend on the individual, i suppose:think:

 

[Ziquor]

I believe methylation protects a lot the steroid for being destroyed by the liver but not 100%, in anabolics 2007 Llewellyn refers that they should be taken empty stomach to increase absorption and see this from PA also:
17alpha alkylated steroids

Scientists have developed several synthetic testosterone derivatives that have increased oral bioavailability. The first synthetic alteration that scientists utilized is known as 17 alpha alkylation. 17a alkylation involves the addition of an alkyl group (methyl or ethyl) to the alpha position of the 17 carbon of the steroid backbone. The alkylation at this position prevents the major route of androgen deactivaton – oxidation to a 17-keto steroid - from taking place. This allows a large part of the steroid to avoid liver first pass metabolic degradation. Examples of 17a alkylated steroids are methyltestosterone and Norethandrolone (Nilevar)
While 17a alkylation is a very effective means of rendering steroids orally active, it suffers from a serious drawback. These steroids are all to some extent toxic to the liver. Some are more toxic than others, but they all have been associated with this problem. Jaundice is not completely uncommon with the usage of this stuff, although this condition is generally confined to individuals who are predisposed to liver problems. Several cases of liver cancer have supposedly been linked to 17a alkylated steroids, however, nothing definitive has been established in this regard. On the other hand, it is somewhat common to observe increases in blood test indicators of liver stress such as BSP retention, and intrahepatic cholestasis (a condition where bile clogs up and stops flowing from the liver).

While the dangers of 17a alkylated steroids are not trivial, they still comprise some of the most potent anabolic agents available, and therefore their use continues. Most smart bodybuilders are aware of the potential toxicities of these steroids, and therefore they are judicious with their use of them


notice the bold, large part not 100%, it may depend on the individual, i suppose:think:

Nice find. I don't 100% get what he means by a 'large part' either. He has tremendous chemistry knowledge but sometimes says some really strange & confusing things. Like he said recently that Epistane is not a steroidal AI (it's listed from a Japanese hospital as being a steroidal AI?) and also that Epistane does not raise testosterone (huh?). BTW did he answer our questions yet over on MD? I'm assuming that's you over there since you have the same name & avy?

 

[nunes]

BTW did he answer our questions yet over on MD? I'm assuming that's you over there since you have the same name & avy?

yeah,its me alright, :thumbsupA waits a long time to answer questions on MD but since I`m sit down there's no problem in waiting, lol

 

[Indiana Jones]

So since Cycle Support is out because it has Milk Thistle what would somebody need for support supps on cycle.

NAC
Red Yeast Rice
Hawthorn Berry
Saw Palmetto


Anything else ?

 

[LukeM69]

are u seriously saying that milk thistle is going to hinder my gains? How much of my 25lbs from 6 weeks of havoc was hindered by the 5 milk thistle tablets per day I was taking?

 

[Indiana Jones]

are u seriously saying that milk thistle is going to hinder my gains? How much of my 25lbs from 6 weeks of havoc was hindered by the 5 milk thistle tablets per day I was taking?

Most people don't put on 25lbs running Test for 12 weeks. Are you sure you gained 25lbs of muscle in 6 with Havoc ?

 

[Ziquor]

i'd drop the RYR. that is bad for your liver. this is why they made a RYR-FREE version of cycle support. sub that for policosanol at 40mg.20mg twice per day. it is way better for cholesterol levels. it is actually what statin drugs are derived from. i.e. Zocor(simvastatin.) fish oil at 6g per day will also help with mood, joints, heart, blood pressure, lipids, and a million other things. for the liver i'd get SAM-e at 400mg per day. it IS expensive, that's what sucks. but it is also an AWESOME supplement. it too helps with mood and joints.

x2. Sam-E rocks for liver support. Makes sure you get the enteric coated tablets cuz more of the active survives your stomace acid. Plus they're easier on your tummy. They're expensive - that's the only drawback, sux. Plus I never found more than a 30 day supply of 400mg tabs yet I like to buy stuff in bulk.

 

[Ziquor]

are u seriously saying that milk thistle is going to hinder my gains? How much of my 25lbs from 6 weeks of havoc was hindered by the 5 milk thistle tablets per day I was taking?

25#? Were you constipated much? That $hit can add a lot of weight to you, literally.

 

[Ziquor]

So since Cycle Support is out because it has Milk Thistle what would somebody need for support supps on cycle.

NAC
Red Yeast Rice
Hawthorn Berry
Saw Palmetto


Anything else ?

The contrversial thing is, almost everything we put in our bodies, whether herbs, otc meds, scripts, whatever, have some strain on the liver. Just to a different level. The best supplement for cholesterol by FAR is Niacin at 500mg - 3 grams per day. It can be unfriendly to the liver like most supplements but at once or twice a day it isn't that bad. They say the time released versions and/or taking it more than twice a day can be harsh to the liver but either by taking either 1 big dose or in 2 seperate doses will avoid liver strain. Plus Niacin lowers cholesterol and increases good (HDL) cholesterol more than ANYTHING, including better than even prescription statins. Another added 'bonus' is it boosts growth hormone levels too.

http://intelegen.com/nutrients/niacin.htm

 

[nunes]

wednesday I will begin with my last oral only cycle , I decided to do this to see the logic of the above , guess what the orals will be?
d-bol 25mg ed and primo 100mg ed for 3 weeks and then 2 more with same dosage of primo and 6 caps of 11-oxo ed .
this baby's should be all legit so no bunk possibilities here(I hope)updated.
QUOTE]
ok cycle begins tomorrow, lets see what happens...:bb3:

 

[LukeM69]

25lbs, I didn't say muscle, alot of the weight would have been water and glycogen retention. Muscle and fat would have been next. But that fact is alot of mass was packed on, which would indicate the drug was actively entering my system despite lots of Milk Thistle. I was dosing at 50mg per day for 5 weeks.

 

[xtgear]

:woohoo: i'm anxious to see the results bro! keep us updated for sure!

me too, go for it...

 

[Indiana Jones]

wednesday I will begin with my last oral only cycle , I decided to do this to see the logic of the above , guess what the orals will be?
d-bol 25mg ed and primo 100mg ed for 3 weeks and then 2 more with same dosage of primo and 6 caps of 11-oxo ed .
this baby's should be all legit so no bunk possibilities here(I hope)updated.
QUOTE]
ok cycle begins tomorrow, lets see what happens...:bb3:

good luck

 

[nunes]

thanks for the support to all of you guys:thumbsup: , I`m not going to make this a daily log but I`ll keep you guys updated weekly, by the way the cycle already began , day one , 180 lbs, and nothing more to report.

 

[Ziquor]

thanks for the support to all of you guys:thumbsup: , I`m not going to make this a daily log but I`ll keep you guys updated weekly, by the way the cycle already began , day one , 180 lbs, and nothing more to report.

Good luck Nunes - you should do a mini-log/review and just update it once a week, or whenever you can. I'd sub it!

 

[nunes]

Good luck Nunes - you should do a mini-log/review and just update it once a week, or whenever you can. I'd sub it!

thanks ziquor, just keep around here and the news(hope only good ones) will come out every week, I just dont want to become boring saying what I do and eat (by the way you can trust its a good and clean muscle building diet)every day , every week will be better to all , in the end I`ll open a thread with the final thoughts and results.
oh , one more thing I decided to run 150 mgs of primo and not only 100 and I`taking the dbols with a empty stomach and primo with meals.
liver support is , nac , essential forte n and I`m waiting for Same to arrive at any moment.

 

[nunes]

liver support is , nac , essential forte n and I`m waiting for Same to arrive at any moment.

...and liv 52 and liver longer , sorry

 

[Ziquor]

...and liv 52 and liver longer , sorry

Lookin good man. I just picked up some SAMe myself, it's sorta expensive here.

 

[nunes]

ok guys lets go to the weekly update:
well this week I`m up 2 pounds , don't feel much of strength increase and my recovery its not better than it was when off.

In the last week I made 4 bb trainings and I played 2 soccer games and today is a off day, I didn't train legs because of the games.
I have some mild acne(I`m not prone to it) to show me that this stuff its not bunk and under the circumstances (no leg training and 2 soccer games) I believe that 2 pound in a week its not bad and I was not expecting better but I hope that d-bol kicks hard this week ( 30 mgs its a decent dose).
The good news is no sides at all, I'm not feeling high estrogen sides(gyno and water retention) , no lethargy and no libido loss.
One of the things I changed was taking the d-bol with a empty stomach cause PA told me that methyl's have better absorption with meals also and I trust the guy so I do it.

Next week new update...

 

[Usf97j4x4]

mine were 15's and for me 45 wasnt to much and also i had no sides it went real smooth and my libido shot through the roof. cant say enough good about it,try 1 am and 2 1hr before your work out and see if your strength and pumps arent fantastic. i didnt do the original phera-plex but i think CEL did a great job on p-plex, enjoy it,later maynard

Thanks for the feedback - glad you enjoyed it! Our last batch was like 19.2 mg/cap so I hope you picked some up.

To the OP - gains normally kick about 2.5 weeks in

FWIW I would have started at 30 at your size.

30/45/45/60 is how I like it.

 

[thundergod]

Subbed to your cycle nunes! Late, but here now. I'm very anxious to see your results with the oral Primo tabs. I've got plenty of D-Bol in my stash, but I've looked at the oral Primo's and wondered how effective they would really be. Looks like I'll have a good reference now. I know you'll love the d-bols for sure. I'm on Day 19 using 20 mg. per day. Of course it's in a stack including 20 mg. of M-Drol and 20 mg. of Methyl-E per day also. But my results are outstanding. I'm on a very strict low-carb diet and still have gained 5 all-lean pounds!! And strength is off da hook!! D-bol makes you feel UBER!!:bb3: Keep us posted on your progress. I'm real interested in your cycle results!! THE THUNDERGOD:hammer:

 

[Ziquor]

Subbed to your cycle nunes! Late, but here now. I'm very anxious to see your results with the oral Primo tabs. I've got plenty of D-Bol in my stash, but I've looked at the oral Primo's and wondered how effective they would really be. Looks like I'll have a good reference now. I know you'll love the d-bols for sure. I'm on Day 19 using 20 mg. per day. Of course it's in a stack including 20 mg. of M-Drol and 20 mg. of Methyl-E per day also. But my results are outstanding. I'm on a very strict low-carb diet and still have gained 5 all-lean pounds!! And strength is off da hook!! D-bol makes you feel UBER!!:bb3: Keep us posted on your progress. I'm real interested in your cycle results!! THE THUNDERGOD:hammer:

Thunder you're on a cycle, no way :blink: When aren't you! Ha, how's the Dbol, give great mood elavations like I always hear?

 

[nunes]

well guys, I have not very good news , unfortunately my fears of poor results with orals only cycles have come to life.
No weight increases but my strength was up but because of my efforts to put this cycle to work my joints are beginning to break , some injuries I got under control (tendinitis) begin to hurt again thanks to the heavy poundage's so I had to cut on the weights and thanks to that I`m not expecting big changes on this last days of cycle.
OK but what do I think of the compounds?
well my strength and vascularity improved but my weight didn't change, this results could happen only thanks to the primo but since I`m using d-bol also and I don't see water retention, bloating and estrogen related sides well or the d-bol its bunk or as I was expecting I don't respond to low/medium doses of orals.
Good news are libido is fine, no signs of shutdown or liver stress.
If you ask me I wouldn't run this cycle again in this dosages and I think that with dosages were I can see results the cycle would became toxic so next time injectables will be on the menu.

another thing , next week I`ll do some blood work to my liver and cholesterol markers to see how toxic or not this cycle is.
Just to remember you guys, till wednesday same compounds and dosages and then one week with 11-oxo bridge to pct.

 

[thundergod]

Sorry for the less than satisfactory results nunes.:sad: I'm glad I seem to respond well to orals. I've always been satisfied with Super-Drol, TRN, and of course D-Bol. Next cycle is an Epi/TRN combo in less than 3 weeks! I can't wait. Strength will explode on that cycle!! Maybe you do need to think about an injectable cycle of Test-E @600 mg. per week for 8 to 10 weeks to see how you repsond to it. I'll bet you wind up growing off of that one!!:thumbsup: THE THUNDERGOD:hammer:

 

[nunes]

Sorry for the less than satisfactory results nunes.:sad: I'm glad I seem to respond well to orals. I've always been satisfied with Super-Drol, TRN, and of course D-Bol. Next cycle is an Epi/TRN combo in less than 3 weeks! I can't wait. Strength will explode on that cycle!! Maybe you do need to think about an injectable cycle of Test-E @600 mg. per week for 8 to 10 weeks to see how you repsond to it. I'll bet you wind up growing off of that one!!:thumbsup: THE THUNDERGOD:hammer:

this is not a surprise for me thunder, my results with oral cycles were always very poor, I really don't understand why cause I gain muscle easy when I pump hard, probably is the liver that does a very good(bad) job on them...

 

[Indiana Jones]

welll nunes your bad news is almost good news. At least we're pretty certain now that some people, like you and I, just do not respond to orals. It has nothing to do with our training, diet, or anything else. It has to do with something we have no control over at all.

 

[nunes]

welll nunes your bad news is almost good news. At least we're pretty certain now that some people, like you and I, just do not respond to orals. It has nothing to do with our training, diet, or anything else. It has to do with something we have no control over at all.

yeah bro, that's not very unusual, I know some guys that really need very high dosages to respond to aas, even with injectables, but with orals is kind of dangerous to go with very high dosages cause their a lot more toxic so in my case and probably yours injectables its the way to go.
By the way do you know if you have high endogenous testosterone values?
I ask cause a friend of mine that is a doctor told me that the fact that having high values can lead to a adaptation to high androgen values and by consequence its more difficult to respond to exogenous androgen's.

But going back to my cycle I have to say that it was not a waste of time, the high vascularity even at rest is well worth it, my girlfriend told me that she notice the improvement a lot, the big problem is my tendinitis , its a strong limitation to see where I could go ...

 

[Ziquor]

Damn Nunes sorry to hear bro. It sucks to go through all that time & money, and hard work especially for nothing. But with D-bol + Primo and you got no water retention at all? Sounds kinda bunkish to me.

 

[Indiana Jones]

By the way do you know if you have high endogenous testosterone values?
I ask cause a friend of mine that is a doctor told me that the fact that having high values can lead to a adaptation to high androgen values and by consequence its more difficult to respond to exogenous androgen's.

no man I don't know anything about that stuff.

yeah bro, that's not very unusual, I know some guys that really need very high dosages to respond to aas, even with injectables, but with orals is kind of dangerous to go with very high dosages cause their a lot more toxic so in my case and probably yours injectables its the way to go.

Hearing that really worries me

 

[Indiana Jones]

Damn Nunes sorry to hear bro. It sucks to go through all that time & money, and hard work especially for nothing. But with D-bol + Primo and you got no water retention at all? Sounds kinda bunkish to me.

I had no water retention at all with P-plex, which is supposed to bloat you up a lot

 

[Ziquor]

I had no water retention at all with P-plex, which is supposed to bloat you up a lot

Not necessarily. Dbol bloat is usually related to its ability to aromatise to estro, whereas Phera isn't able to directly aromatise.

 

[Brian5225]

Sorry indiana, Phera doesn't aromatize. Any excess bloat was caused by people increasing carbohydrates, and the increased glycogenesis. If a person didn't have a massive amount of carbs, they won't bloat. I had a pretty high amount of carbs and I didn't bloat much at all.

 

[Indiana Jones]

Oh I didn't know that, I thought P-plex was supposed to be "wet"