Using HCG with Prohormones

[Saintdog]

I have been doing a lot a research on the use of HCG during cycles. Most of what I have read relates to steroid cycles though. Anybody have any positive experiences using HCG during prohormone cycles? Also, would the injection dosage of HCG during a prohormone cycle be the same as that for a steroid cycle (250iu every 4 days)?

I tend to be having a really hard time lately with my PCT. Even with using a SERM (Tamoxifin), cortisol control and test booster supplements after a prohormone cycle I’m struggling to keep my gains. I’m on week 6 of a pretty aggressive stack right now which seems to be making my testicles atrophy very slightly, not sure though. I’m trying to avoid a big crash when I finish my cycle in a few weeks.

Any suggestions?

 

[jbryand101b]

you are 5'9" and 240? a little on the chubby side dont cha think?

my advice would be to drop some weight (particularly adipose tissue) before using a steroid cycle as that is what ph's are, steroids.

btw, we need more info,

your age...

what you have been using..

whats your diet look like...

how long have you been training...

and you do realise you aren't going to keep all of your gains from on cycle. you can keep most, but not all.

 

[Saintdog]

HCG

I’m probably at about 17% body fat right now. I’m a powerlifter and not a bodybuilder though, so I don’t worry about it much. As long as I can cut weight to get into my target weight class before competition I’m not worried about it. I can shed weight pretty easily when I want to.

I know I’ll never keep all my gains after I end a cycle, but the last few cycles it is getting increasingly harder to keep the gains. My PCT seems to be taking longer also after the last few cycles I ran. Before I could finish my PCT and get back to homeostasis in about a month. Now it seems to take to between two to three months.

Here is the info you requested below.

Age: 35

What you have been using: Currently I am taking American Cellular Labs TT-40 (1-androsterone) at 210 mg/ED and American Cellular Labs AH-89 (5a-androstano) at 75 mg/ED. This is along with milk thistle, hawthorn berry and saw palmetto. This is more aggressive of a cycle than I usually do, but I have been doing prohormones for several years now and lower doses aren’t as effective as they used to be. I have used pretty much all of the American Cellular Labs products and have probably run 8 – 10 cycles to date.

Diet: High protein (300 + gms/ED), low to medium carbs and low fat.

How long have you been training: Serious and intense now for about 5 year.

Thanks

 

[jbryand101b]

well, okay, seeing that your a p.l. the weight just part of the game.

and my bad, you are actually using pro hormones, alot of people call already active steroids like superdrol, etc pro hormones. but seeing as how these will cause steroid gains, and sides, lets just call them steroids for now.

okay, first thing, I would say, your not a youngin anymore being at 35, and that it is normal, even a dr advised pct plan is going to take you 2 months after a long injectable cycle, and this (without going into detail) includes hcg, clomid, nolva, used in various stages.

this pct protocol (above) is one that william llewellyn recomends in his "anabolics 9th edition" book, and is prescribed at the worlds leading hormone replacement therapy clinic, and is the only proven method. (with data)

this is not to say that the various other methods used today by steroid users do not work. each person has to find which pct plan works best for them.

it takes time, and as a person ages, may change, and need a more aggressive plan.

so your current cycle to my standards, doesn't seem intense, or dosed high. normal dosing for 1-dhea would be around 600mg e/d, and for the 5a-dhea would be around 300. but if you are seeing results, then it doesn't matter.

and im sure you have read this before, but the only true way to find out if you are shut down, is with a blood test.

pre cycle, post cycle, and post pct blood work is the best way to find out how shut down you are, and the damage thats been done, or reversed.

okay, so to your original question, the hcg would be run the same as with a steroid cycle, because though you are using a in active substance at first, it becomes a steroid one ingested.

hcg useage varies among people. some recomend using near the end of your cycle, while others will recomend using it after last dose taken.

it's hard to say for you, as you have had a change in how you recover, so this could be an indication of lowered hpta function.

when was your last blood test?

and I would strongly recomend that you get a copy of "anabolics 9th edition" aka anabolics 2009.

 

[jbryand101b]

P.O.W.E.R. pct program from anabolics 9th edition

The PCT program outlined below represents what I consider to be an ideal and effective post-cycle program. It was developed by the doctors at the Program for Wellness Restoration (PoWeR), who have a formidable history helping patients recover normal hormonal functioning following steroid therapy.
One of the key doctors on this program, Dr. Michael Scally, claims to have successfully treated more than 100 cases of hypogonadism/hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, and is very well known in the field of androgen replacement therapy. PoWeR published this program as part of a recent clinical study, which involved 19 healthy male subjects who were taking supraphysiological (highly suppressive) doses of testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks.
Their HPGA Normalization Protocol focuses on the combined use of HCG, Nolvadex' and Clomid, and is perhaps the only clinically documentec post-cycle therapy program to be found in the medica literature (it is amazing how little attention has been paid to hormone normalization in clinical medicine).

The mos notable variation from a classic PCT stack, such that I have been a longtime supporter of, is the combined use of two anti-estrogens. In this case I cannot say that there is disadvantage to such use; perhaps it is indeed the better option.
Examining the program closely, we note that the teste are hit hard with HCG at the onset of therapy. Its intake however, is limited to only 16 days. The doctor, undoubtedly recognize that when HCG is taken for toe long or at too high a dosage, it can desensitize the Lh receptor.
This would only further exacerbate the post cycle problem, not help it. Anti-estrogens are used during and after HCG, with a dosage of 10 mg of Nolvadex anc 100 mg of Clomid per day rounding out this complimet of drugs. Clomid is used for a shorter period of time tha Nolvadex, likely because of the desensitizing effect it to' can have (on the pituitary gland) with continued usage among other things, these two anti-estrogens will continue to foster LH release as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as combat any potential estrogeni side effects that may be caused by HCG's up-regulation to testicular aromatase activity.
Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogens probably do very littlle they should be much more helpful towards the middle and end of the program. During this clinical investigation normal hormonal function was restored in all subjects within 45 days of drug cessation.This is a definite success far more favorable than the protracted recovery wich noted in studies without post-cycle therapy, such as test 250 mg/week testosterone enanthate investigatid, highlighted in Figure I. For me, I believe such a detailed recovery program should follow any serious steroid cycle It is the best way to maintain your gains at their maximun and that is, after all, what we are after.

Protocols: Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) is taken at 2500lU every other day for 16 days. Clomiphene citrate 50 mg is taken twice per day for 30 days.Tamoxifen citrate is taken 20 mg per day for 45 days.

 

[Saintdog]

Thanks for all the info. I definitely owe you one!

I’ll research the Program for Wellness Restoration you mentioned and try to find that study.

Will probably go and get another blood test to. I had one done a few months after my last cycle and my doctor told me I am in the normal range. Unfortunely I did not get the actual numbers from the test results though. I learned later that a lot of doctor’s consider the “normal range” to be for all adult males. By that definition me having the testosterone levels of a 60 yr old man could be considered normal.

Thanks again.