Ursolic Acid Product w/ 100% bioavailability. Any interest?

[Mike Arnold]

Are you guys interested?


Why Would this Product be Different?
​

Hi, guys. Would anyone here be interested in a sterile, oil-based version of Ursolic acid? Unlike the typical 1-2% bioavailability found with regular Ursolic acid, this product would be roughly 50-100X more potent, per mg. Each serving would probably be 100 mg per dose, which is the equivalent of roughly 5,000-10,000 mg when using normal oral formulations. Even though transdermal versions have much higher bioavailability than oral versions, they are still very, very low in comparison to the type of product I am talking about. For the first time, we would be able to harness the full power of Ursolic acid to build muscle and burn fat.

The primary issue associated with Ursolic acid is its very poor solubility. This makes absorption incredibly difficult. In fact, it is so bad that it can't even be made into an effective, sterile, oil-based product. It's solubility in ethanol is only .5-1 mg per ml in pure ethanol. But, injectable products are normally only comprised of only 2% ethanol, thereby making an efficaciously dosed product impossible. That's worse than oral versions, as at least oral versions can be dosed as high as someone wants, while injectable versions are limited to the amount of Ursolic acid that can be dissolved into 1/100th to 1/200th ml of ethanol. Regardless, both versions suck.

The only way to make a truly effective Ursolic acid product is to drastically increase its solubility. The good news is that we now have the technology to do so; to the point where it is 100% dissolvable even in water! This still doesn't completely overcome the oral bioavailability issues, but it does increase its oral bioavailability by around 400-450%. This makes an oral version feasible, as it would allow the individual to cost-effectively use the product orally.

But where this new version of Ursolic acid really shines is with sterile-oil-based products! A full 100 mg of Ursolic acid can be dissolved into just 1 ml of your typical oil-based product. As mentioned above, that would be like swallowing 5,000-10,000 mg of Ursolic acid with each serving. Now that is a truly effective dose, especially since Ursolic acid's effects have been shown to be dose-dependent!

But...what if I upped the ante even further and combined Ursolic acid with another truly effective, but up to this point, under-utilized ingredient? I am talking about 7-Keto DHEA; another ingredient which showed great promise in research trials, but which failed miserably on the supplement market due to, once again, extremely poor oral bioavailability. Like Ursolic acid, 7-Keto DHEA's oral bioavailability is only 1-2%. This means that the typical oral dose of 200 mg yielded only 2-4 mg of useable 7-Keto DHEA. That is just NOT enough to provide the impressive effects on fat loss that researchers noted in their trials with injectable preparations.

I Want to Hear Your Recommendations!
​

Aside from Ursolic acid and 7-Keto DHEA, what other ingredients have you guys encountered over the years that showed great promise, but simply couldn't be made effectively due to a lack of bioavailability? If you have any suggestions, please fire away. Thanks.

 

[Smont]

L-bibia/mitoburn I felt was a good stim free fat burner, I see it's only about 15% orally bioavailable. I don't know anything about putting that into oil but I thought that would pair well with ursolic and 7 keto

 

[malin]

I love UA , would definitely give it a go.

 

[botk1161]

I would definitely try this

 

[Ape McGrapes]

Triacetyl Adenosine?

 

[ironkill]

Yep

 

[Caliguns45]

I'm definitely in on this

 

[LucasBagoDoce]

I’m in for the Ursolic Acid
And I love L- Carnitine… but pinning every day always results in some PIP
If there was a way of making L-Carnitine bioavailable in any form other than IM, that would be a godsend

 

[schizm]

Would totally be down

 

[Smont]

I’m in for the Ursolic Acid
And I love L- Carnitine… but pinning every day always results in some PIP
If there was a way of making L-Carnitine bioavailable in any form other than IM, that would be a godsend

You can't get even remotely close to the effectiveness without Injecting it and you don't have to pin at daily. You can pin it about 4x week and get most of the benifits.

Rotate your injection sites too

 

[Smont]

Triacetyl Adenosine?

I was thinking the other day a injectable atp and Nad + combo would be really cool

 

[dcoen21]

I would be down for a solo ursolic acid product. If I would want a second ingredient in the same bottle I would prefer l-carnitine over 7-keto.

 

[thescience]

id try. ive tried all manner of ursolic acid without a glint of success. why am i answering this? everybody wants that. has to be a rhetorical question. both ingredients, nothing else. for anyone on the fence about keto DHEA, it's my understanding that, unlike dhea, it doesnt convert into anything

 

[Smont]

I would be down for a solo ursolic acid product. If I would want a second ingredient in the same bottle I would prefer l-carnitine over 7-keto.

I'm pretty sure l-carn is off the table because this is going to be a oil based product. Carn can go in oil but it's a big process from what the bossman told me

 

[baldwanus]

Transdermal UA is basically a staple for me at this point, so consider me interested. I'd prefer for it to be just single ingredient UA though.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I'm pretty sure l-carn is off the table because this is going to be a oil based product. Carn can go in oil but it's a big process from what the bossman told me

Carnitine is usually sold in such large quantities that it would require filtering huge quantities of oil. Super time consuming.

 

[BCseacow83]

UA has my interest, I am out if there is 7-keto involved as I have to stay away from anything that can lower cortisol.

 

[BigGame84]

Yes, would be interested.

Also, if you could make a high bioavailability epicatechin product as well.

 

[Hyde]

Send me some and I’ll pin it!

Definitely interested. But at 1ml daily needed, you’re going to ideally want some big jugs (don’t we love those), unless you think sticker shock will be too much on a 30-50ml vial.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

Yes, would be interested.

Also, if you could make a high bioavailability epicatechin product as well.

Interested in UA and Epicatechin product

 

[Mike Arnold]

Send me some and I’ll pin it!

Definitely interested. But at 1ml daily needed, you’re going to ideally want some big jugs (don’t we love those), unless you think sticker shock will be too much on a 30-50ml vial.

Honestly, I could probably make 200 mg/ml work, which would a much smaller vial. At 3 grams per vial, I could sell it at a decent price too! 3 grams at 100% bioavailability would be equal to roughly 150-300 grams of regular Ursolic acid.

 

[MetalFingaz]

Most definitely!

 

[Jstrong20]

Lots of people love ua. I didn't notice much but maybe I didn't run it long enough. Would definatley give the injectable a try. I'd like to try an injectable 4 dhea to. The topicals worked surprisingly well for small light cycles so I was thinking the inject would be way better. Or even an injectable epi product.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Yes, would be interested.

Also, if you could make a high bioavailability epicatechin product as well.

I thought about Epicatechin...but keep in mind that we already possess bioavailability enhancers capable of increasing its oral bioavailability by at least 500%. Octyl gallate alone increase it 400%, so 500% is a very conservative number. It's probably more like 600%.

With normal epicatechin having an oral bioavailbility of 4%, and with us already being able to increase its oral bioavailability to at least 20% (and probably more like 24%-25%), we can already dose it effectively with oral formulations...without having to go too crazy on the dose. We don't really know what Epi's optimal dosage is, but I could easily sell an oral version dosed at 1,500 mg/serving (30 servings), along with all the necessary bioavailability enhancers, for about $59....and still have room for sales, discount codes, etc.

However, if you wanted to experience those same benefits with an injectable version, you would need to inject around 375 mg per day...and it's impossible to fit that much Epi into 1 ml of oil. Even if the carrier was comprised of 100% ethanol (which is impossible because it would cause internal muscular-subcutaneous burns...and hurt super bad), that much Epi still couldn't' fit into 1 ml. The bottom line is that the user would have to inject MANY ml's every day in order to achieve a dose of 375 mg...and they would need to do that every day.

Is it really worth injecting 4-5 ml of oil per day, when you could just swallow 1,500 mg with the proper bioavailability enhancers, and have an equally effective product? My guess is no. I don't think many people would prefer the injectable route under those circumstances. Normally, in order for someone to be willing to transfer over to an injectable version, the increase in results better be pretty darn substantial. Otherwise, there just isn't any meaningful incentive to do so.

So, while an injectable Epi sounds good at first glance, once all factors are taken into consideration, it becomes evident that injecting Epi just isn't a wise course of action.

 

[thescience]

why not just put the oil in some dmso cream and sell it to a wider audience? there is a rose scented dmso cream that actually doesnt smell bad. that stuff has never failed me getting something through transdermally, and is pretty much what id be using to take this.

 

[BigGame84]

Just so I better understand this thread, are we talking about an oral or injectable?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Just so I better understand this thread, are we talking about an oral or injectable?

Sterile oil-base

 

[Hyde]

Honestly, I could probably make 200 mg/ml work, which would a much smaller vial. At 3 grams per vial, I could sell it at a decent price too! 3 grams at 100% bioavailability would be equal to roughly 150-300 grams of regular Ursolic acid.

For anything daily use, having oil volume down at that 0.5ml size makes it way more convenient as far as locations I’d be happy to put it/rotate.

Not saying 1ml is unreasonable at all, but I really don’t prefer going over .75 in delts, 0.5 in pecs, etc. So if 200mg/ml could happen it would be really clutch.

I also like that little volume because if something ends up subq it’s not a big deal.

But if you would need to make 1ml the optimal volume to include 7-keto, that would still be priority to me over UA solo at half oil volume. 7 keto has some good health benefits as I recall.

 

[Hyde]

Just so I better understand this thread, are we talking about an oral or injectable?

100mg UA consumed orally isn’t going to be an effective dose. A pharmaceutical drug being injected would commonly use a sterile oil base as a carrier.

MA Research products are not for human consumption

 

[rowz4broz]

Yes

 

[Rich Tits]

Honestly, I’d rather experiment with other pentacyclic triterpenoids. I understand the hackneyed nature of the supplement market, but would it be too much to look into transdermal maslinic acid/ oleanolic acid?

 

[Smont]

Honestly, I’d rather experiment with other pentacyclic triterpenoids. I understand the hackneyed nature of the supplement market, but would it be too much to look into transdermal maslinic acid/ oleanolic acid?

We dont do transdermals. Orals and injectables. You might want to pitch those transdermal ideas tp apex or iconic or sns tho. Im pretty sure all three of them have a td operation

 

[Rich Tits]

That’s my bad. Point regarding preferable substitutes still stands though.

 

[rascal14]

I’d absolutely pin some Ursolic Acid for my research subjects! I too love the transdermals and if you say injectable can be even better, I am game.

I’m with Hyde on this one!

 

[rascal14]

This could be an asinine question so forgive my ignorance - what about Arachidonic Acid, Amentoflavone, Anacylus, any of those common older “natural anabolics”?

Only reason I mention it, they’re some of the only natural substances I’ve gotten tangible benefits from.

no idea the bio availability in oral form to be honest.. could be 100% for all I know. Could be the dumbest suggestion you see all year!

I’ll put anything in a pin if you tell me it’s better that way lol

 

[CATdiesel76]

Yes! I’ve been asking for this for years. UA biggest limiting factor is how dose dependent it is. Higher doses yield drastically better doses. Prototypes was great but with total body applications you could only go so far with 2x dosing. Apex’s is higher concentration so you could run it every higher with better results. Better that that was prototypes old arginine ursolic acid caps stacked on the prototypes. I think the oil will be eye opening for those who haven’t run it high

 

[Atlas1970]

I wondered if anyone has run UA in calorie excess on a bulk? Most feedback seems to be on
people dieting or in a recomp. In greater doses (transdermal) is it more anabolic or is it mainly an anti-catabolic
substance?

 

[rascal14]

@Mike Arnold I know it’s early considering the question is still up in the air, what kind of timeline are you looking at to release some form of the UA in oil? I’d even be interested in a trial run of UA alone, though that may not be financially feasible?

Also - say you take Ursa Gel at 6 pumps a day, thats 420mg and only what, 50% bioavailability? Or even less if the dosage for injectable is looking at such a drastic difference and only dosed at 100-200mg/ml.

also potential price range? $40-80? $80-$200?

needless to say I am now very intrigued on you getting this thing going

 

[Smont]

That’s my bad. Point regarding preferable substitutes still stands though.

Understood, theres a lot of intrest in this tho so i dont believe a substitute makes sence. But its still a possible good idea for another product after this one.

 

[Smont]

I wondered if anyone has run UA in calorie excess on a bulk? Most feedback seems to be on
people dieting or in a recomp. In greater doses (transdermal) is it more anabolic or is it mainly an anti-catabolic
substance?

Ursolic acid has a lot of benifits. Google search benifits of ursolic acid, Definately some good information if you dig into it.

 

[Smont]

@Mike Arnold I know it’s early considering the question is still up in the air, what kind of timeline are you looking at to release some form of the UA in oil? I’d even be interested in a trial run of UA alone, though that may not be financially feasible?

Also - say you take Ursa Gel at 6 pumps a day, thats 420mg and only what, 50% bioavailability? Or even less if the dosage for injectable is looking at such a drastic difference and only dosed at 100-200mg/ml.

also potential price range? $40-80? $80-$200?

needless to say I am now very intrigued on you getting this thing going

Dont quote me here because im not completely on top of this stuff.

I believe oral ursa is only 0.5-1%

Now to my understanding a good transdermal system can boost up to 25% or so?

So that means td ursolic is about 12.5-25× more bioavailable?

I recently used td ursa and im a fan, it absolutely gave me the impression that it speeds up fat loss and helps maintain muscle and i like the sound of the other 25 things it can do.

So with that in mind, injectables are 99% bioavailable. Thats a massive difference. I have no clue what that difference will make but when the time comes i got no problem being one of the test subjects lol.

 

[rascal14]

Dont quote me here because im not completely on top of this stuff.

I believe oral ursa is only 0.5-1%

Now to my understanding a good transdermal system can boost up to 25% or so?

So that means td ursolic is about 12.5-25× more bioavailable?

I recently used td ursa and im a fan, it absolutely gave me the impression that it speeds up fat loss and helps maintain muscle and i like the sound of the other 25 things it can do.

So with that in mind, injectables are 99% bioavailable. Thats a massive difference. I have no clue what that difference will make but when the time comes i got no problem being one of the test subjects lol.

Right there with you. Brew it in your sink, for all
I care! I love Ursa, especially high dosed transdermal.

 

[Smont]

Right there with you. Brew it in your sink, for all
I care! I love Ursa, especially high dosed transdermal.

Lol

 

[Ape McGrapes]

Can't you attach some kind of ester? I have no problem pinning, but daily IM injections isn't very appealing to me.

 

[MetalFingaz]

This

Can't you attach some kind of ester? I have no problem pinning, but daily IM injections isn't very appealing to me.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Can't you attach some kind of ester? I have no problem pinning, but daily IM injections isn't very appealing to me.

It may be possible, but it's not something I will be able to do. It's one thing to make a new plant extract, but when you start attaching esters, you are attempting to create a new molecule. This is more costly, as it requires chemists and large minimum purchase orders...and that's assuming it can even be done in the first place. If it could be done cost-effectively, someone probably would have done it by now, but given the fact that no one has even overcome the bioavailability issue, let alone esterfied the molecule, it leads me to believe that making such a product would probably be very costly. In the end, it comes down to whether or not the potential financial reward is worth the initial financial investment. Keep in mind that with an oil-based product like this, the consumer base is relatively small in comparison to more mainstream supplements...simply because most people won't be willing to use the product as directed. Your own comment demonstrates this truth, as you said yourself, to paraphrase "that daily use doesn't sound very appealing".

Many supplement company owners have had great ideas throughout the years, but in many cases, they simply can't be brought to life for one or more reasons.

On the oral bioavailability front, great advances have been made in recent years, but we haven't yet reached the point where an oral product can be made cost-effectively. Maybe we'll get there in a few years, as a highly orally bioavailable Ursolic acid product is ideal.

 

[dcoen21]

Did I miss a possible eta?

 

[rascal14]

Did I miss a possible eta?

I don’t believe, I check this thread daily hoping to see one.

what is PIP expected to be like? I hear acid and think ouch, but know that’s not the case always.

 

[Hyde]

Yeah definitely interested in this.

@Mike Arnold also looking forward to a Black Friday sale hopefully. I am very pleased with ProSynthesis and looking to stock up!

 

[poluvolo]

I think that piperine increase bioalaivability of ursolic acid when take oraly bu maybe i am wrong
very intersting thread