TRUE OR FALSE?

[KingAnt]

I'm 25 years old and this is my first cycle.

I've been running 1-andro and 4-andro.
220/220/440/440/550.
The first two weeks was just 1-andro at 220. as began to become lethargic I decided to add in 4-andro. At week 5 I decided that I wanted to up the 4-andro. Everything was going great until I noticed my nipples starting to get puffy. I don't have any solid mass behind it ( I don't think, I can't tell what was already there and what wasn't ) .i feel something I'm there but it's not super hard and it doesn't hurt. Which makes me think that maybe it's the male breast gland? I don't ****in know though. I don't have any sensitivity or itchynes. Nothing except a bit of puffiness. I have an AI on hand and when I take it the puffiness seems to go down.

I went to the local suppz shop. Planning on buying some nolva. I spoke to the shop owner for quite some time about what I'm experiencing. The owner is 45 years old and been running different gears for some time now. He's about 5"8 and 195 jacked. He seems to know his **** but I don't trust anyone so I'm here to see if you guys confirm or deny what he says. Dude asked me to show him and he agreed that my nips are a bit puffy.

He stated that due to my age my testosterone levels are already high and that the lethargy I got was from too much testosterone and when I added the 4-andro I added even more testosterone and my body began to convert it to estrogen and 4-andro being a compound that aromatizes into estrogen easily it didn't help my situation. Plus I added an extra 110mg in the 5th week. Not good idea for first cycle.

The process:
Ok so basically after we discussed my symptoms and sides and cycle n all that. He said it could be prolactin or it could be estrogen sides. We decided that I'm going to taper down on the andros for a few days while taking my AI and see if the sides go away and my body regulates itself. If the puffiness goes down then I'm good and I'll taper to 0 and start pct.
if the puffiness is not down in a few days then he has clomid and arimidex on hand for me and he said that should solve the problem

If for some reason clomid and arimidex doesn't work the next step would be letro

If letro fails then it's time to get in with a doctor.

Ok I need your guys opinions on everything. Any and all input is very helpful. I worked hard on these pecs I ain't about to let them turn into titties

 

[Renew1]

Do you have a research chemical or pharma grade AI?
If so, which one, and what dose?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Are you 100% sure that they’re actually puffy? Are they normally puffy at all? Puffiness without pain, itching, lumps, etc is generally from prolactin.

 

[Matthersby]

I don’t trust jacked people anyhow.

Unless you have labs done, who knows? What I would do would be very different than what many here would suggest.

I throw everything at it:
Raloxifene or Nolva
Prami or Caber
Letro or AI of choice.

There’s nothing worse than blindly throwing an AI at it and it doesn’t subside..

Than throw Prami at it, nothing subsides(except gaining some shytty side effects)

Than you take Nolva and it goes away in 3 days.

Or a different order of trying different chemicals, only nothing works. In different orders...

All 3 always works though.
Probably won’t be pleasant though.
Without labs, that’s the only way I suggest it. Get your CC out, find a research chemical site that doesn’t sell junk, and spend some money. Everything will give me gyno, literally everything. So I carry an Arsenal with me always.

 

[Jinsun]

Okay mate, did the guy in the shop actually say that you got lethargy from to much test? Hahahahaha

Okey, let's set things straight:

1. Lethargy comes from low estrogen and low dht.
2. 1 andro will shut down your natural test production. Thus making you lethargic bc you wont have any estrogen and dht.
3. It's extremely unlikely that you have gyno if you are shut down.
4. 4 andro is weak. 600mg ed will most likely just replace your natural test levels and will not cause gyno. If what you are eating is actually 4ad off course. You are not taking nearly enough of it to cause gyno. But if you are a big converter of t to e2 than all is possible.
5. Go get your estrogen, prolactin and T levels checked!!!
6. I would not take an Ai based on the compounds you are taking as your estrogen is probably low as is. But again if you are a big converter the you need some aromasin.
7. If you think you are getting gyno just stop using everything bc something isn't right with the stuff you are taking or with the response of your body to it. Or do bloods asap and addjust accordingly.
8. If you want to continue with it take a serm.
9. Go back to the store and say fu*k off to the stupid as* bit*h giving you uneducated advice that can cause you even more harm.

Damn Im cranky today. Must be the dbol and lack of sleep

Lethargy from to much test lol

 

[KingAnt]

Are you 100% sure that they’re actually puffy? Are they normally puffy at all? Puffiness without pain, itching, lumps, etc is generally from prolactin.

Yeah I'm 10000% sure they are puffy. They are never like this, my skin usually nice and tight. Especially around my chest. No pain, no itching, I kinda think there might be something starting to form in there but I'm not sure? I kiimda think it might be a swollen breast gland?

 

[KingAnt]

I don’t trust jacked people anyhow.

Unless you have labs done, who knows? What I would do would be very different than what many here would suggest.

I throw everything at it:
Raloxifene or Nolva
Prami or Caber
Letro or AI of choice.

There’s nothing worse than blindly throwing an AI at it and it doesn’t subside..

Than throw Prami at it, nothing subsides(except gaining some shytty side effects)

Than you take Nolva and it goes away in 3 days.

Or a different order of trying different chemicals, only nothing works. In different orders...

All 3 always works though.
Probably won’t be pleasant though.
Without labs, that’s the only way I suggest it. Get your CC out, find a research chemical site that doesn’t sell junk, and spend some money. Everything will give me gyno, literally everything. So I carry an Arsenal with me always.

I kinda like that approach. If this doesn't go away or subside in a few days I'm probably going to freak out and default to that method out of shear fear of man tits.

 

[BlockBuilder]

Anything is better than bitch tits. I would hit that **** with everything you got. Seriously I see guys on gear with bad gyno, bitch tits and pimples all over their body. If this is how you look on gear stop using gear. It looks awful

 

[Renew1]

I kinda like that approach. If this doesn't go away or subside in a few days I'm probably going to freak out and default to that method out of shear fear of man tits.

What have you done differently so far to make it go away?

We can argue what it may or may not be....but we aren't there to see it, and we aren't you.

I can tell you what I would do, if I felt like I was getting gyno on cycle....WHATEVER IT TAKES. Up to, and including stopping my cycle.

 

[KingAnt]

So far I'm doing as directed and tapered down from 330 4-andro and 220 1-andro to just 110 1-andro and I'm going to continue to take my AI religiously. If I don't notice a difference in 2-3 days then I'm going to start clomid and arimistane pct. and in the mean time I'm ordering caber, nolva, letro. But I'm confused on the payment process for MAresearch, wtf is an E-check and do they want mystraight bank account routing and account number?

 

[Renew1]

I didn't catch the name of the AI that you are taking right now......

 

[KingAnt]

It's just an over the counter AI. I think we talked about it in a separate post. It's hi-tech pharmaceutical estrogenex depot 625 mg. 3 times a day. It's all I can get my hands on right now. I emailed MAresearch about the payment

 

[Renew1]

Ok, I just emailed him as well.
I have no confidence in the over the counter stuff. But keep taking it...it won't hurt.

If he only takes eCheck...keep in mind that every time someone writes a check, everyone who sees that check also sees the account and routing number.

And seriously, if I were you I'd take advice from guys on this board before I take it from a shop guy. We aren't trying to sell you products. And also, if one of us tells you something stupid, someone else will correct it.

 

[KingAnt]

Ok, I just emailed him as well.
I have no confidence in the over the counter stuff. But keep taking it...it won't hurt.

If he only takes eCheck...keep in mind that every time someone writes a check, everyone who sees that check also sees the account and routing number.

And seriously, if I were you I'd take advice from guys in this board before I take it from a shop guy. We aren't trying to sell you products. And also, if one of us tells you something stupid, someone else will correct it.

Yeah I agree , that's why I wanted to lay it all out for the forum guys and see what you all had to say about it.

 

[Matthersby]

And seriously, if I were you I'd take advice from guys on this board before I take it from a shop guy. We aren't trying to sell you products. And also, if one of us tells you something stupid, someone else will correct it.

Just to piggyback on this real quick.
My approach, in the realm of responsible, experienced, steroid use, is ridiculous.
There’s so many guys here(and dozens of forums) that understand chemistry and endocrinology on a level that makes me feel like a moron. And I’ve used protocols that have carefully been put together for years and years by brilliant men..... and they didn’t work, because everyone is different and responds differently to different drugs. You could do everything by the book, being careful to not disturb homeostasis and not crush your estrogen, and still get gyno.

That’s why I recommend such an over-the-top approach... Because it will work.
Without labs, until you become more versed on each compound you are taking, you won’t know what’s causing it.

I don’t have to do that now, because I know what drugs will cause it and why typically.
Sometimes I only need a super low dose AI. And that’s all I’ll use.

But if I’m on new AAS and gyno starts popping up, I’m crushing whatever I have to until I’ve got it dialed in. Then, I can back it off until I figure out which ancillary is needed.

Coincidentally, I am on an AI, SERM, and prolactin inhibitor, alongside the steroids I’m using. So they aren’t bad to have around I guess...

 

[KingAnt]

Just to piggyback on this real quick.
My approach, in the realm of responsible, experienced, steroid use, is ridiculous.
There’s so many guys here(and dozens of forums) that understand chemistry and endocrinology on a level that makes me feel like a moron. And I’ve used protocols that have carefully been put together for years and years by brilliant men..... and they didn’t work, because everyone is different and responds differently to different drugs. You could do everything by the book, being careful to not disturb homeostasis and not crush your estrogen, and still get gyno.

That’s why I recommend such an over-the-top approach... Because it will work.
Without labs, until you become more versed on each compound you are taking, you won’t know what’s causing it.

I don’t have to do that now, because I know what drugs will cause it and why typically.
Sometimes I only need a super low dose AI. And that’s all I’ll use.

But if I’m on new AAS and gyno starts popping up, I’m crushing whatever I have to until I’ve got it dialed in. Then, I can back it off until I figure out which ancillary is needed.

Coincidentally, I am on an AI, SERM, and prolactin inhibitor, alongside the steroids I’m using. So they aren’t bad to have around I guess...

Yeah man I totally agree. Thanks for all your help. It's much appreciated.

 

[KingAnt]

Ok guys I just ordered prami, letro, nolva, and ralox. Now me being new to every single one of these compounds. What would you guys recommend on the dosages and time frames for taking these?

 

[Matthersby]

For puffy nips? Just Letro at a low, low dose. And Ralox at 25-30mg/day. Should be more than enough to subside it. Don’t know about the compounds you’re taking, so if someone that does chimes in, that may be even better.

 

[Jinsun]

Well with 4ad prolactin has no business showing up. It can only be e2. So tbh I think op should order aromasin. It's easier and better to use it on cycle as it's 1. a milder ai and 2. a type 1 ai. A serm will take care of the nipps and a normal dose of ai will lower e2. But either way do bloods and report back here.

 

[Matthersby]

see?^^

 

[KingAnt]

For puffy nips? Just Letro at a low, low dose. And Ralox at 25-30mg/day. Should be more than enough to subside it. Don’t know about the compounds you’re taking, so if someone that does chimes in, that may be even better.

What exactly is considered a low dose of letro?

 

[KingAnt]

Well with 4ad prolactin has no business showing up. It can only be e2. So tbh I think op should order aromasin. It's easier and better to use it on cycle as it's 1. a milder ai and 2. a type 1 ai. A serm will take care of the nipps and a normal dose of ai will lower e2. But either way do bloods and report back here.

Why would prolactin have no buisness showing up on 4-andro?
I'm stopping my cycle. I'm 5-6 weeks in and have seen decent gains and not trying to push my hormones and get gyno. Do you have any opinions on dosage and frequency?

 

[KingAnt]

Also, if you guys think I should order anything else let me know. I'm thinking about getting some caber as well.

 

[boooosted]

Also, if you guys think I should order anything else let me know. I'm thinking about getting some caber as well.

I prefer caber but if you already ordered the prami you won't need both. I may be wrong, but I don't see the need for nolva and ralox. I've had much better experience clearing it up from ralox after nolva didn't work. Now I just go straight to ralox at the first sign.

 

[KingAnt]

I prefer caber but if you already ordered the prami you won't need both. I may be wrong, but I don't see the need for nolva and ralox. I've had much better experience clearing it up from ralox after nolva didn't work. Now I just go straight to ralox at the first sign.

I just tryed to order caber and ma didn't have any. I just ordered a bunch of **** so that I would have it just in case. Worst case scenario I can save it for next cycle. Ok so you think I should start with Ralox? Or should I just ****in run everything at once and hope for the best ?
Also how long should I run the ralox for? And at what dosages ?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Yeah I'm 10000% sure they are puffy. They are never like this, my skin usually nice and tight. Especially around my chest. No pain, no itching, I kinda think there might be something starting to form in there but I'm not sure? I kiimda think it might be a swollen breast gland?

Sounds more like prolactin issues, although that doesn’t 100% guarantee that your estradiol isn’t high either.

 

[Matthersby]

I prefer caber but if you already ordered the prami you won't need both. I may be wrong, but I don't see the need for nolva and ralox. I've had much better experience clearing it up from ralox after nolva didn't work. Now I just go straight to ralox at the first sign.

All of this ^^

They both work typically, only Ralox works better than Nolva.

Reputable RC’s won’t carry caber in liquid form, but I didn’t want to start making this all complicated and confusing, as OP is new to all this. Prami is easy to source from research chem sites. And in this instance, last resort if AI and SERM are ineffective..

 

[hairygrandpa]

Whoever is suggesting Prami to OP is a sadist. For some (me) prami is liquid death in a bottle. The sides are horrendous.

 

[Toren]

OP - Throwing the kitchen sink at some 'puffiness' is probably the worst thing you could do right now. Especially since you have zero experience with any of these compounds. You'll be in for a hormonal roller-coaster that you will not know how to manage. Short of bloodwork, you're just guessing....

If your plan is to stop your cycle, it's simple - PCT with Nolva and Exemestane. Tried and true.

Nolva (Tamoxifen): 20/10/10/10
Exemestane: 6.25/6.25/6.25/6.25/6.25 (3x per week for 3 weeks followed by 2x per week for the last 2 - evenly spaced out)

Re-evaluate in a few weeks.

 

[KingAnt]

OP - Throwing the kitchen sink at some 'puffiness' is probably the worst thing you could do right now. Especially since you have zero experience with any of these compounds. You'll be in for a hormonal roller-coaster that you will not know how to manage. Short of bloodwork, you're just guessing....

If your plan is to stop your cycle, it's simple - PCT with Nolva and Exemestane. Tried and true.

Nolva (Tamoxifen): 20/10/10/10
Exemestane / (mg): 6.25/6.25/6.25/6.25/6.25 (3x per week for 3 weeks followed by 2x per week for the last 2 - evenly spaced out)

Re-evaluate in a few weeks.

Thanks man! Do you think that will get rid of the puffiness?

 

[KingAnt]

Whoever is suggesting Prami to OP is a sadist. For some (me) prami is liquid death in a bottle. The sides are horrendous.

Well ****. I got prami, letro, ralox, and nolva on the way. What do you suggest?

 

[Toren]

Thanks man! Do you think that will get rid of the puffiness?

If the puffiness is related to overexpression of the ER in that area, it should be quite helpful. Stopping the PH should also be helpful. Make sure your diet is in check as well and clean it up if you've been slacking.

 

[KingAnt]

Sounds more like prolactin issues, although that doesn’t 100% guarantee that your estradiol isn’t high either.

What would you do if you were in my situation?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

What would you do if you were in my situation?

Bloodwork. Throwing a bunch of ancillary drugs without bloodwork is taking a shot at a target you can’t see.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Well ****. I got prami, letro, ralox, and nolva on the way. What do you suggest?

Blood labs first.
Be VERY careful when playing with prami. Read about dosages first. Only ONE drop made me feel like dying for hours.

 

[KingAnt]

Blood labs first.
Be VERY careful when playing with prami. Read about dosages first. Only ONE drop made me feel like dying for hours.

**** man that sounds horrible. Kinda marking me shy away from it a bit.

 

[hairygrandpa]

**** man that sounds horrible. Kinda marking me shy away from it a bit.

On the other hand, a friend of mine loves prami. Reported awesome boners, wild dreams and an alert state on it.
To me it was like being on a small ship in a storm, while having food poisoning and a heart attack at the same time.

 

[Renew1]

On the other hand, a friend of mine loves prami. Reported awesome boners, wild dreams and an alert state on it.
To me it was like being on a small ship in a storm, while having food poisoning and a heart attack at the same time.

LOL.
Sounds tempting!

 

[AnabolicGuru]

On the other hand, a friend of mine loves prami. Reported awesome boners, wild dreams and an alert state on it.
To me it was like being on a small ship in a storm, while having food poisoning and a heart attack at the same time.

I ran rx caber before and didn’t notice anything about other than minor hot flashes. I want to try it again though, I wouldn’t mind more libido lmao.

 

[KingAnt]

Bloodwork. Throwing a bunch of ancillary drugs without bloodwork is taking a shot at a target you can’t see.

**** man I gotta be honest a full anabolic panel at my local lab corp is about $150 and I'm a full time single dad that lives paycheck to paycheck. I had to save up my cash just to run this cycle. By the time I get that money to do the bloodwork will be at least a month from now.

I ****ed up. But you only learn from mistakes if you don't do it again.
Next time I'll have the cash for emergency set aside. Should I wait a month and get the bloodwork done ? If so, what do I do in the mean time?

 

[KingAnt]

Ok guys. After doing some further research on the anatomy of male breast. What I was feeling inside is glandular tissue. It feels exactly like what this picture looks like.

 

[hairygrandpa]

I ran rx caber before and didn’t notice anything about other than minor hot flashes. I want to try it again though, I wouldn’t mind more libido lmao.

Caber is a different animal, have no sides on it whatsoever.

 

[hairygrandpa]

View attachment 168424

Ok guys. After doing some further research on the anatomy of male breast. What I was feeling inside is glandular tissue. It feels exactly like what this picture looks like.

Google : "Raloxifene and gyno"

Worked for everyone I know with no sides (besides low libido for a week after exem).

3 consecutive days of exemestane at 25mg/d (lowering e2, crashing it), after that 60mg Ralox/d for a few weeks until gyno is gone. That's it.

Took me 3 weeks until tits were normal size again -and small lumps (bean bags) disappeared.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Ah, the ralox protocol works best on a cut, helps "eating away" the extra tissue.

 

[KingAnt]

Google : "Raloxifene and gyno"

Worked for everyone I know with no sides (besides low libido for a week after exem).

3 consecutive days of exemestane at 25mg/d (lowering e2, crashing it), after that 60mg Ralox/d for a few weeks until gyno is gone. That's it.

Took me 3 weeks until tits were normal size again -and small lumps (bean bags) disappeared.

Perfect! Thanks man. I'll get right on it. That's the kinda info I was looking for in this forum

 

[KingAnt]

Ah, the ralox protocol works best on a cut, helps "eating away" the extra tissue.

Ok then looks like I'm going into a calorie deficit. Whatever it takes man. Gyno to me is the worst of all possible sides and sure enough it's the one that effects me.

 

[KingAnt]

Anybody oppose hairy Grandpa's protocol? After all I'm here for opinions, advice and too learn.

Based on my research through forums and message boards and websites. His protocol sounds similar to what alot of people recommend. But then again everyone reacts differently.

 

[Toren]

Anybody oppose hairy Grandpa's protocol? After all I'm here for opinions, advice and too learn.

Based on my research through forums and message boards and websites. His protocol sounds similar to what alot of people recommend. But then again everyone reacts differently.

Ralox and Exemestane are great for treating gyno, but you have self-diagnosed yourself as having gyno. How do you know the puffiness is not just subcutaneous fat?

You are ending your cycle, correct? So, you need to PCT now. Raloxifene is not an ideal SERM for PCT purposes. Ralox is only slightly better in studies than is Nolva in regards to binding to and inactivating the ER in breast tissue. Nolva, is however, much better at stimulating the HPTA and boosting Testosterone in males when compared to Raloxifene.

See my previous post for your best PCT option and "gyno" reduction protocol. You'll kill two birds with this stone if you use Tamoxifen (Nolva) instead of Raloxifene.

 

[hairygrandpa]

^^^ THIS^^^ I forgot you did a cycle first. Thank's Toren .

See how your tits look after PCT, maybe it resolves using nolva or torem.

 

[Matthersby]

On the other hand, a friend of mine loves prami. Reported awesome boners, wild dreams and an alert state on it.
To me it was like being on a small ship in a storm, while having food poisoning and a heart attack at the same time.

If I take it at night, I don’t notice the sides. But as stated earlier, without labs, it has come in handy in a pinch for me, (always last resort) especially recently on Dienolone. Honestly, it’s one of the better drugs for sex in existence for me....


But, ya, it totally makes some guys go insane.
DiceRoll....