thyroid boosters

Dwight Schrute

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I think there is some confusion here, they used 2.5mcg of 3,5-T2(which is what is sold in stores) and 10mcg of 3,3-T2(essentially garbage with no known effects) to a equal dose of 2.5mcg of T3.
Read genius:

"In experiments over 3 months in rats in vivo, a low dose (25 micrograms/100 g per day) of T2 suppressed TSH to 60% and T4 to 57% of control levels and had no significant influence on other parameters. Conversely, 0.1 microgram/100 g per day T3 had significant effects on body and organ weights as well as pellet intake, but a less pronounced TSH suppressive effect:

T2 = 25mcg
T3 = .1mcg


What don't you get?
 
Dwight Schrute

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Is this what your arguement has been reduced to, if so I surely won't waste my time.

What arguement? You haven't made any...You given me bunk studies that have no relelvance to humans consumption. You even admitted yourself thats all the data you have.

I, on the other hand, express the views of most experts in the filed of steroids/hormone and given you real life prrof of how Frank Zane is now dependent on T3 because of his misuse.
 

lovetoeat

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Not sure there is a need for name calling, but I guess you are new to the whole mod thing. I thought we were discussing the second study.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Not sure there is a need for name calling, but I guess you are new to the whole mod thing. I thought we were discussing the second study.
I called you close minded for failing to see the obvious. If you think thats name calling, go cry about it somewhere else.
 

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Read genius:

"In experiments over 3 months in rats in vivo, a low dose (25 micrograms/100 g per day) of T2 suppressed TSH to 60% and T4 to 57% of control levels and had no significant influence on other parameters. Conversely, 0.1 microgram/100 g per day T3 had significant effects on body and organ weights as well as pellet intake, but a less pronounced TSH suppressive effect:

T2 = 25mcg
T3 = .1mcg


What don't you get?
Yes this first study shows T3 to be stronger than T2, again at no point have I said they are mg for mg the same potency. Nobody is using 100mcg of T2 and seeing results.
 

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You gave me a case study trying to prove they had the same effect. The dosages of t2 was 250x the dose of t3. I think that states the case about the potency and your attempt to link the two.
250x the dose of T3? This comment is in reference to the first or second study posted?
 
Dwight Schrute

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250x the dose of T3?
THats what the dosages were used in the RAT study!!!!!

25mcg % .1mcg = 250!!!!


Good lord. Think about it.
 

lovetoeat

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Perhaps you should go back to the first page and re-read BOTH rat studies I posted and then get back to me.
 

lovetoeat

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In experiments over 2 weeks in rats in vivo, low doses of T2 (20-200 micrograms/100 g body weight per day) had no significant influence on body and organ weights, but significantly decreased TSh and T4 serum concentrations. At 200 micrograms/100 g per day, T2 suppressed TSH to 43% and T4 to 29% of control levels.

Are you ignoring this part of the study. Nobody should be taking this stuff for 3 months.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Perhaps you should go back to the first page and re-read BOTH rat studies I posted and then get back to me.
Maybe you should re-read your studies and actually attemp to understand them.

1st study: Conducted on euthyroid rats and compared with t3-supplemented rats. Do you know what a euthyroid rat is? Did you not know that hormone levels were not normal in euthyroid rats? Didn't think so...Study irrelevant. Its like measuring glucose uptake in biabetics and associating that with non-diabetics.

2nd study: 25mcg compared to .1mcg in rat metabolism....Umm...yeah.


Until you actually have a clue what your posting this debate is pointless. Go on thinking t2 is comparable to T3. Its laughable.
 
Dwight Schrute

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In experiments over 2 weeks in rats in vivo, low doses of T2 (20-200 micrograms/100 g body weight per day) had no significant influence on body and organ weights, but significantly decreased TSh and T4 serum concentrations. At 200 micrograms/100 g per day, T2 suppressed TSH to 43% and T4 to 29% of control levels.

Are you ignoring this part of the study. Nobody should be taking this stuff for 3 months.
In euthyroid rats!!!!!! Jesus dude, get a clue!
 
Dwight Schrute

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John Berardi:

The next question then is to ask whether or not T2 can suppress natural thyroid hormone (as measured by TSH concentrations) production like T3 can. This is where things get a little sketchy. In hypothyroid rats, T3 seems to have a much larger suppressive effect than does T2.

- Moreno et al found that it took 5x as much T2 to suppress TSH when
compared to T3 (7).
- Cimmino et al found that it took 25x as much T2 to suppress TSH when
compared to T3 (3).
- Ball et al found that 100x the dose of T2 lead to 5x less suppression
of TSH when compared to T3 (6).
- In vitro data by Everts et al showed that T2 was 100x less
suppressive than T3 (9).
- Finally, Horst et al showed that in euthyroid rats, while it took
over 100x as much T2 to suppress TSH compared with T3, even at these
doses, there were no major changes in body weight with T2
supplementation (10).

So from these data it is pretty clear that it takes a much large dose of T2 to suppress natural thyroid hormone production than T3.


So in the end, the question of whether T2 is a legitimate fat terminator is a tough one to answer. From the available data, there isn't a clear picture that I can present. However, I think that T2 is ultimately pretty safe at the recommended doses."



Yeah T2 is just as harmful as T3. Riiiiiight............
 

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In euthyroid rats!!!!!! Jesus dude, get a clue!
Yo Bobo, this is a very good thread and Im following it as it goes, try not to get too personal with it man..... ;)
 

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For me the question is not is it more or less harmful than the other, it's "is it harmful to my physical well being at all".

I think you need be VERY careful when ever you take anything that can affect your thyroid.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Dwight Schrute

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This is real world testimony:

"Well I’ve known way to many people who have had problems with T3 at higher doses. A friend of mine name Mike G. is on T3 for the rest of his fucking life for going high. When he first heard the news it shattered him. He stopped lifting weights all together. Couple that with the post-T3 crashes you will experience even if you don’t screw yourself, and prolonged T3 usage at higher doses is a damn stupid idea! I mean can you imagine eating 3 salads a day and still gaining fat!? Yes, it’s happened."
 

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Here's Bryan Haycock's opinion:

The Scoop on T2 (3, 5-diiodo-1-thyronine)

Hey Bryan,

What is the scoop on this new T2 fat loss compound (3, 5-diiodo-1-thyronine)? The recommended dose is 50 mcg 1 to 3 times a day. The claims are:

"With T2, thyroid production is effectively increased at both the thyroid receptor site, as well as the mitochondria that are located in certain highly metabolic tissues."

"T2, on the other hand, on a mcg-to-mcg basis, is much less suppressive than T3, something on the order of 1%, meaning you'd have to take 100 times the amount of T2, as compared to T3, to get the same inhibition of TSH. At the same time, T2 is just as metabolically potent, and in some instances more potent than T3 — like with increasing hepatic oxygen consumption and uncoupling mitochondria."

"Bottom line with T2, it has every bit as much horsepower as T3, with minimal side effects. And if you follow the guidelines on the T2 label — 50 mcg 1-3 times a day for no longer than six weeks — you should have no problems after you discontinue use."

The scoop is that Diiodothyronine (T2) is an active iodothyronine very similar to T3. T2 is a metabolite of T3, yet it is metabolically active. I guess the best way to cover this particular question is to deal with the claims being made about T2.

First claim, "With T2, thyroid production is effectively increased at both the thyroid receptor site, as well as the mitochondria that are located in certain highly metabolic tissues."

This is false. Thyroid "production" is effectively decreased due to a reduction in both TSH and T4 levels with supplemental T2.

Second claim, "T2, on the other hand, on a mcg-to-mcg basis, is much less suppressive than T3, something on the order of 1%, meaning you'd have to take 100 times the amount of T2, as compared to T3, to get the same inhibition of TSH."

OK, here is a quote strait out of the research:

"The effects of T2s were compared with those elicited by 3,5,3'-triiodo-L-thyronine (T3) (2.5 microg/100 g BW). The serum TSH level was much greater in hypothyroid rats than in euthyroid ones. T3 administration suppressed TSH by 88% compared to control (i.e, the level in hypothyroid rats); it thus reached a value not significantly different from that seen in the euthyroid rats. 3,5-T2 produced a similar effect, suppressing the TSH level by about 75% compared to control; it thus reached values not significantly different from those of the euthyroid and T3-treated rats."(Life Sci 1998;62(26):2369-77)

According to this research, T3 suppressed TSH by 88% at 2.5 mcg/100g BW and T2 suppressed TSH by 75%. To me that is not much difference! Certainly nothing close to the claim of only 1% difference.

There is however another form of T2 called 3,3'-diiodo-L-thyronine or 3,3'-T2. Now 3,3-T2, as apposed to 3,5-T2, has virtually no effect on TSH. However, it also has virtually no metabolic effect at all. Could it be that the company making claims about T2 has confused research looking at 3,3-T2 with that of 3,5-T2?

The claim continues…"At the same time, T2 is just as metabolically potent, and in some instances more potent than T3 — like with increasing hepatic oxygen consumption and uncoupling mitochondria."

When comparing "potency" of T3 and 3,5-T2 you have to take into consideration the several effects of T3. There are at least 3 receptor types for T3, each one seems to have a distinct effect. For example, just because both T3 and 3,5-T2 may increase hepatic oxygen consumption doesn’t mean they will have identical effects when taken as a dietary supplement. For example, in a study comparing T3, 3,5-T2, and 3,3-T2 it was found that low doses of 3,5-T2 (>20 micrograms/100 g BW/day) had no significant influence on body weights, but significantly decreased TSH and T4 serum concentrations. At a high dose of 200 micrograms/100 g per day, T2 suppressed TSH to 43% and T4 to 29% of control levels. T2 will indeed suppress your thyroid output folks.

On the other hand T3 at only 1-15 micrograms/100 g per day, used as a comparison to T2, had significant effects on TSH and T4 levels, and also on body weight. Fifteen micrograms T3/100 g per day decreased TSH to 44%, T4 to 25%, and body weight to 59% of control levels.

In long term experiments (3 months) a low dose (25 mcg/100 g per day) of T2 suppressed TSH to 60% and T4 to 57% of control levels and had no significant effect on body weight. Conversely, 0.1 microgram/100 g per day T3 had significant effects on body and organ weights as well as pellet intake, but with less TSH suppression.

It is incorrect to say that T2 is just as potent for losing body fat as T3. It is even more incorrect to say that T2 will not wreak havoc with your own thyroid output. Here is what the research has to say about T2 compared to T3, "In vivo, T2 has been shown to suppress TSH levels at doses that do not produce significant peripheral manifestations of thyroid hormone activity. Furthermore, T2 has been shown to produce smaller increments in peripheral indices of thyroid status than does T3, when doses resulting in equivalent suppression of circulating TSH are compared."(J Mol Endocrinol. 1997 Oct;19(2):137-47.) What this means is that, at levels of T2 that cause an equal amount of thyroid suppression as a given level of T3, T2 fails to produce as much thyroid effect as T3. So you get more suppression with less activity.

Last claim, "Bottom line with T2, it has every bit as much horsepower as T3, with minimal side effects. And if you follow the guidelines on the T2 label — 50 mcg 1-3 times a day for no longer than six weeks — you should have no problems after you discontinue use."

Reading between the bottom lines…T2 does not have as much horsepower as T3. T2 appears to be a more selective agonist of the thyroid receptors (TRs), perhaps failing to activate all of the subtypes. This gives 3,5-T2 unique properties. Keep in mind that 3,3-T2 has no properties and marketers must be careful to distinguish between research looking at 3,3-T2 and 3,5-T2.

Am I saying 3,5-T2 has no benefit to bodybuilders? No. I’m just saying it isn’t as perfect as some would have you believe. It may very well have some effect on fat loss if taken at high enough doses. Keep in mind however that you will experience some rebound. I have not used T2 myself as of yet so I cannot give first hand experience. Nor will I write T2 off as worthless until I either use it myself or until I have some of my clients use it. All I can say about T2 is buyer beware, and more importantly, buyer be educated!

"Some" references I used:

1: Moreno M, Lombardi A, Lombardi P, Goglia F, Lanni A. Effect of 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine on thyroid stimulating hormone and growth hormone serum levels in hypothyroid rats. Life Sci. 1998;62(26):2369-77.

2: Ball SG, Sokolov J, Chin WW. 3,5-Diiodo-L-thyronine (T2) has selective thyromimetic effects in vivo and in vitro. J Mol Endocrinol. 1997 Oct;19(2):137-47.

3: Horst C, Harneit A, Seitz HJ, Rokos H. 3,5-Di-iodo-L-thyronine suppresses TSH in rats in vivo and in rat pituitary fragments in vitro. J Endocrinol. 1995 May;145(2):291-7.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Once again his opinion rests on studies done on hypothroid rats. Thats already been proven unreliable. It has nothing to do with real world human consuption. If we went by that, Clenbuterol would burn more fat than T3. We know how well it did in rat studies.
 

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Here's Bryan Haycock's opinion:....
In May of 2002, Bill Llewellyn wrote the following:
John,

Just FYI I've taken over Haycock's "Anabolic Research Update Section" in MD from July forward.

- Bill
Rumor has it they were receiving too many complaints about Haycock 's column containing erroneous information. Who knows? But I take his opinion with a grain of salt, and as Bobo has pointed out, this is the same rat study. Rats given a thyroid condition and then subjected to hundreds of times the human dose of T2 just can't equate to......anything!!! Except that this is what happened to the rats in that study, that's all.

Even if they had taken rats with normal thyroid and given them realistic doses, I'm not sure it would mean much, but the controls used in this study show no relevance to real world results comparing effects of T2 vs T3 on a 200 lb bodybuilder. I used T2 in combination with Xenadrine, and the combination produced results far greater than what I have experienced before or since on any ECA thermogenic alone. Results were negligeable at 50 mcg 3 X day. But I felt an immediate difference when I upped the dosage to 100 mcg 3 X daily. I was on this for about 5 weeks with no thyroid supression whatever.
 

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Since T2 is less active and has a lower affinity for the thyroid receptors in the cell than T3, larger doses of T2 are required to get the same fat-burning effects as you would get with T3. And although T2 is less suppressive than T3, the doses required to get full effectiveness may be enough to suppress natural thyroid production anyway

This was also taken from Berardi's site, which is what I've been saying from the beginning. I don't believe the recommended dose(which is 50-150mcg a day) would be suppressive, neither would 12.5mcg of T3, but neither of these doses would do much in regards to fat loss. He also goes on to say nobody knows for sure whether or not the above is true and until more research is done on it, we won't know.
 

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In May of 2002, Bill Llewellyn wrote the following:

Rumor has it they were receiving too many complaints about Haycock 's column containing erroneous information. Who knows? But I take his opinion with a grain of salt, and as Bobo has pointed out, this is the same rat study. Rats given a thyroid condition and then subjected to hundreds of times the human dose of T2 just can't equate to......anything!!! Except that this is what happened to the rats in that study, that's all.
Keep in mind all of the "positive" info provided by the marketers of these T2 products were taken from studies done on hypothyroid rats

I was on this for about 5 weeks with no thyroid supression whatever.
Did you have tests done?
 
Dwight Schrute

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Since T2 is less active and has a lower affinity for the thyroid receptors in the cell than T3, larger doses of T2 are required to get the same fat-burning effects as you would get with T3. And although T2 is less suppressive than T3, the doses required to get full effectiveness may be enough to suppress natural thyroid production anyway

In RATS! Their basing this on rat studies! When are you going to learn you can't take the hypothyroid metabolism of the rat and equate it to human physiology. Even the experts agree on this. If you value rat studies so much, then check out the ones done with Clenbutrerol. Your missing out. Ite best best fatburner out there, bar none: according to rat studies.

In real life, we know how good it is, and its nothing like what was stated in those rat studies.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Since T2 is less active and has a lower affinity for the thyroid receptors in the cell than T3, larger doses of T2 are required to get the same fat-burning effects as you would get with T3. And although T2 is less suppressive than T3, the doses required to get full effectiveness may be enough to suppress natural thyroid production anyway

This was also taken from Berardi's site, which is what I've been saying from the beginning. I don't believe the recommended dose(which is 50-150mcg a day) would be suppressive, neither would 12.5mcg of T3, but neither of these doses would do much in regards to fat loss. He also goes on to say nobody knows for sure whether or not the above is true and until more research is done on it, we won't know.
So then stop saying T2 is just as dangerous as T3. Its not even close.

"If one doesn't wish to buy illegal drugs then sure give T2 a try, but it sure as hell isn't any more "safe"."

If your not sure, don't give blanket statements. My opinions and recommendations are similar to those experts and also have testimonials of people that have permanent suppression of thyroid functions with misuse of T3.
 

lovetoeat

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The majority of the T2 studies are done on rats, there are tons of studies done on rats, until we have human studies we have nothing else to go by. I still don't know how you have come to this opinion you have, are you agreeing with the "experts" who believe T2 not to be suppressive which they concluded from the very same rat studies you are so against? Or does this come from personal experience having used T3 and T2? I can't even recall seeing a post on any board from someone who has used both and compared.
 

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So then stop saying T2 is just as dangerous as T3. Its not even close.

"If one doesn't wish to buy illegal drugs then sure give T2 a try, but it sure as hell isn't any more "safe"."

If your not sure, don't give blanket statements. My opinions and recommendations are similar to those experts and also have testimonials of people that have permanent suppression of thyroid functions with misuse of T3.
If I'm not sure? Your opinions are based on experts who based their opinions on rat studies, my statement in regards to the safety of T2 is a lot more realistic than yours.
 

lovetoeat

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And your testimonials from two people out of the many thousands of users of T3(most I'm sure with little or no education on the drug) is hardly convincing.
 
Dwight Schrute

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The majority of the T2 studies are done on rats, there are tons of studies done on rats, until we have human studies we have nothing else to go by. I still don't know how you have come to this opinion you have, are you agreeing with the "experts" who believe T2 not to be suppressive which they concluded from the very same rat studies you are so against? Or does this come from personal experience having used T3 and T2? I can't even recall seeing a post on any board from someone who has used both and compared.
If you go by the results they had on CLen and the real world results, you can see the problem. But you haven't read thos studies have you.
 
Dwight Schrute

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And your testimonials from two people out of the many thousands of users of T3(most I'm sure with little or no education on the drug) is hardly convincing.
Thats because most people know not to misuse it because of the serious complications. How about we post this on several boards and see if they agree that T2 and T3 are similar in negative effects. You would get laughed off the board.


Your failure to even see the obvious just makes you more closed minded than ever. Be a rebel man. Go ahead and pop your T3 in high doses and see what happens.
 
Dwight Schrute

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If I'm not sure? Your opinions are based on experts who based their opinions on rat studies, my statement in regards to the safety of T2 is a lot more realistic than yours.

Realistic? You gave me studies based on euthyroid rats in which you still don't understand. Even the experts give it no credibility and your more realisitic. Go tell Frank Zane that T3 doesn't permanently shutdown your thyroid. Now thats laughable....
 

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Thats because most people know not to misuse it because of the serious complications. How about we post this on several boards and see if they agree that T2 and T3 are similar in negative effects. You would get laughed off the board.
Or would they be laughing because you're trying to say T2 would produce similar results in fat loss, without the side effects, that is what you're saying right?
 

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Realistic? You gave me studies based on euthyroid rats in which you still don't understand. Even the experts give it no credibility and your more realisitic. Go tell Frank Zane that T3 doesn't permanently shutdown your thyroid. Now thats laughable....
I never said it wasn't possible, just haven't seen any case where it has happened, sucks for Frank Zane to be the only one.

And who are these experts you keep referring to? Berardi?
 
Dwight Schrute

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Or would they be laughing because you're trying to say T2 would produce similar results in fat loss, without the side effects, that is what you're saying right?
Obvisously you have a hard time understanding certain things. Where did I ever say T2 provided the same effects in terms of fat loss? I'd really like to see. They would probably laugh at you for not seeing the obvisous. Do you still not know what a euthyroid rat is?
 
Dwight Schrute

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I never said it wasn't possible, just haven't seen any case where it has happened, sucks for Frank Zane to be the only one.

And who are these experts you keep referring to? Berardi?
You can try Bill L too. Have you ever read Anabolics 2002? Or any of the other versions? Didn't think so.....
 

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Do you understand they haven't performed ANY studies on rats with normal thyroid function? Why are the studies supporting my arguement any less valid than the ones that oppose it? You still haven't even given a reason why you believe what you do other than "its widly accepted that misuse can cause serious problems, is enough for me"
 

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You can try Bill L too. Have you ever read Anabolics 2002? Or any of the other versions? Didn't think so.....
I have it right next to me here and will gladly look at it tomorrow.
 

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It's 1:30 here, I need to go to bed. Have a good night.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Do you understand they haven't performed ANY studies on rats with normal thyroid function? Why are the studies supporting my arguement any less valid than the ones that oppose it? You still haven't even given a reason why you believe what you do other than "its widly accepted that misuse can cause serious problems, is enough for me"
Then its very simple. If you don't think the rat studies are relevant then we can only conclude from real world experieinces and how its prescribed in the medical community. By that we can conclude T3 can have serious consequences if misused.

On, the other hand from what we know, most people agree that T2 does not supress the thyroid nearly as much as T3 can, and the adverse effects are marginal compared to T3. In other words, they are NOT similar.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I have it right next to me here and will gladly look at it tomorrow.
Please do. And also find out what a euthyroid rat is. After understanding that, you'll see why your study is irrelevant.
 
Dwight Schrute

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You still haven't even given a reason why you believe what you do other than "its widly accepted that misuse can cause serious problems, is enough for me"

Two words: FRANK ZANE
 

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So if one were to take T2 for like 14 days, what would be the way to taper? Would something like 200,200,300,300,400,400,400,400,400,300,300,200,200,200 work, or would you need to draw it out longer than that?
 

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So if one were to take T2 for like 14 days, what would be the way to taper? Would something like 200,200,300,300,400,400,400,400,400,300,300,200,200,200 work, or would you need to draw it out longer than that?
Bump.
 
mooch2321

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im going to bump this years old thread as its pretty interesting considering two of the newest fatburners out their carry this compound....any new ideas on 3,3 or 3,5????
 

giantbrandon

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im going to bump this years old thread as its pretty interesting considering two of the newest fatburners out their carry this compound....any new ideas on 3,3 or 3,5????
which fat burners are they
 

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