Think I’m in a surplus but losing weight still?

[rob111]

Help appreciated..!

Im 5ft 10” natural and currently 150lbs after spending 16 weeks cutting, and lost an average of 1.5lbs/week losing a total of 26lbs, getting very lean in the process.

I’m now looking to lean bulk, I’d like to gain 10lbs of muscle of the next 12-14 weeks.

On my cut the calories were 2400/day averaging 15,000 steps with no other cardio, I then upped calories to 3000 for 2 weeks, I stopped dropping weight and figured this was my maintenance.

I then upped calories to 3400 and lowered steps to average 12,500/day, and am now losing weight again! In a week I’ve gone from 150.5lbs to 149.8lbs

Anyone know if I just need to give it more time at these cals or do I need to up them further?

FYI macros are as follows:
Carbs - 45%
Fats - 25%
Protein - 30%

Averaging:
Carbs - 375g
Fats - 90g
Protein - 250g

Thanks in advance for any expertise.

 

[TheMrMuscle]

Just stick with where you are now. Your body will start gaining weight soon. But 10 pounds of muscle in 14 weeks im afraid is a tall order. For a natural, 10 pounds of muscle in a year is still insane results.

 

[rob111]

Just stick with where you are now. Your body will start gaining weight soon. But 10 pounds of muscle in 14 weeks im afraid is a tall order. For a natural, 10 pounds of muscle in a year is still insane results.

Many thanks for the reply.

Right, I thought it may be achievable to be honest. My goal is to add lean muscle and especially add an inch to my arms… I have read that to add 1 inch to your arms you need to gain 10lbs of muscle, would you say it’s definitely out of reach and I should lower my expectations?

 

[TheMrMuscle]

Yeah i dont want to be a killjoy but even with AAS, 10 pounds of muscle in 3 months is quite a feat.

There are several schools of thought when it comes to natural bulking and what is the most effective. Some advocate a hard Push phase where you really go hard on the calories for a huge weight gain, then do a cut to get off the fat and then straight back to a new Push phase. This might be a good way to go if you goal is to get huge and compete.

The one I myself prefers is to take it a bit slower, aim for a 0,5-1% increase in bodyweight a month. If you can stick to this you will be gaining less fat and the bulk phase can be sustained longer. Bear in mind im 45 years old and have been lifting for 30 years. So ive pretty much peaked out on gains.

But none of these are going to put 10 pounds of muscle on us in a 3 month time im afraid. But you could restructure your goal. Either aim to gain a set amount each month, or set an end goal in weight. Like, say you want to bulk until you get to 180, then when you get there you reassess your results and see if you have gotten to fat or not. Then either continue bulking or go for a cut.

Ive been doing this for 30 years and I still dont feel like a expert in anything. Im actually looking at doing a Off Season Module from j3university because I feel there must be more for me to learn on this subject.

Off Season Coaching

[op3_menu_render menu_id='477' uuid='rkAfy279' page_id='23923' page_timestamp='1701149626'][/op3_menu_render]Elevating Physique Coach EducationThe Off-Season Blueprint: Maximize Your Client's Off-Season Revolutionize your coaching game and become the go-to expert for off-season gains with the...

j3university.com

 

[KvanH]

Finding your new maintenance takes a bit more time as your body/metabolism is likely still affected by the cut and on top of that reacting to now increased calories.

I don't know how you've done those weigh ins, but I'll state just in case, that the body weight can fluctuate quite a bit. My BW can easily fluctuate 1-2 lbs inside a week without any actual weight loss or gain. So it's best to check your 'empty' morning weight daily or at least 3 times a week and follow the trend or even calculating the week's average, if you'd want, in situations when accurate tracking of BW is important.

A side note, gaining 10 lbs of actual muscle mass in 14 weeks is very unlikely. I'm not trying to be discouraging, it's good to have (ambitious) goals, but some realism is also good to have, so you won't get any unnecessary dissappointments. Gaining 10 lbs of 'good weight' in 12-14 weeks would be more approriate goal IMO. I would rather have a goal of gaining 10 lbs of muscle without a time frame and do things to work towards that, bit by bit, doing right things, working towards the goal. 10 lbs of muscle to a 150 lbs frame is a huge difference.

 

[rob111]

Yeah i dont want to be a killjoy but even with AAS, 10 pounds of muscle in 3 months is quite a feat.

There are several schools of thought when it comes to natural bulking and what is the most effective. Some advocate a hard Push phase where you really go hard on the calories for a huge weight gain, then do a cut to get off the fat and then straight back to a new Push phase. This might be a good way to go if you goal is to get huge and compete.

The one I myself prefers is to take it a bit slower, aim for a 0,5-1% increase in bodyweight a month. If you can stick to this you will be gaining less fat and the bulk phase can be sustained longer. Bear in mind im 45 years old and have been lifting for 30 years. So ive pretty much peaked out on gains.

But none of these are going to put 10 pounds of muscle on us in a 3 month time im afraid. But you could restructure your goal. Either aim to gain a set amount each month, or set an end goal in weight. Like, say you want to bulk until you get to 180, then when you get there you reassess your results and see if you have gotten to fat or not. Then either continue bulking or go for a cut.

Ive been doing this for 30 years and I still dont feel like a expert in anything. Im actually looking at doing a Off Season Module from j3university because I feel there must be more for me to learn on this subject.

Off Season Coaching

[op3_menu_render menu_id='477' uuid='rkAfy279' page_id='23923' page_timestamp='1701149626'][/op3_menu_render]Elevating Physique Coach EducationThe Off-Season Blueprint: Maximize Your Client's Off-Season Revolutionize your coaching game and become the go-to expert for off-season gains with the...

j3university.com

Such good advice I really appreciate it TheMrMuscle

I go on holiday at the start of June, and I want to incorporate an 8 week cut before I do. I seem to be someone who loses weight and gets lean very easily.

My plan was that it leaves from now until around the 10th April to lean bulk, so a timeframe of 14 weeks. During my cut I lost a hell of alot of fat, but clearly some muscle too. My arms went from 15” to 14” and I’d like to gain some size back, as much as is realistically possible whilst gaining a minimal amount of fat.
Since upping calories and mainly carbs, strength has shot up, I am training Push/Legs/Pull 6 days per week with Sunday as rest.

How much size do you think someone can gain on their arms/chest/legs in this timeframe with this plan?

 

[rob111]

Finding your new maintenance takes a bit more time as your body/metabolism is likely still effected by the cut and on top of that reacting to now increased calories.

I don't know how you've done those weigh in's, but I'll state just in case, that the body weight can fluctuate quite a bit. My BW can easily fluctuate 1-2 lbs inside a week without any actual weight loss or gain. So it's best to check your 'empty' morning weight daily or at least 3 times a week and follow the trend or even calculating the weeks average, if you'd want, in situations when accurate tracking of BW is important.

A side note, gaining 10 lbs of actual muscle mass in 14 weeks is very unlikely. I'm not trying to be discouraging, it's good to have (ambitious) goals, but some realism is also good to have, so you won't get any unnecessary dissappointments. Gaining 10 lbs of 'good weight' in 12-14 weeks would be more approriate goal IMO. I would rather have a goal of gaining 10 lbs of muscle without a time frame and do things to work towards that, bit by bit, doing right things, working towards the goal. 10 lbs of muscle to a 150 lbs frame is a huge difference.

Thanks, more good advice

Completely understand what you are saying, I suppose 10lbs of muscle is really 15-20lbs of good weight, so maybe I need to drop my goal to 10lbs of good weight.

I think because I was losing weight so easily, at 1.5lbs per week, I am thinking I can gain muscle at a similar rate and now I know that’s just not how it works.

 

[TheMrMuscle]

Such good advice I really appreciate it TheMrMuscle

I go on holiday at the start of June, and I want to incorporate an 8 week cut before I do. I seem to be someone who loses weight and gets lean very easily.

My plan was that it leaves from now until around the 10th April to lean bulk, so a timeframe of 14 weeks. During my cut I lost a hell of alot of fat, but clearly some muscle too. My arms went from 15” to 14” and I’d like to gain some size back, as much as is realistically possible whilst gaining a minimal amount of fat.
Since upping calories and mainly carbs, strength has shot up, I am training Push/Legs/Pull 6 days per week with Sunday as rest.

How much size do you think someone can gain on their arms/chest/legs in this timeframe with this plan?

Its really hard to give a specific timeframe for gaining an inch here and there. If i deplete completely and then carb up and get a good pump i can "loose" and "gain" 2-3 inches in a day.

You say you lost an inch on your arms, that can be a combination of loosing the fat on your arms and have lower glykogen stored in your muscles because of the cut. I myself would rather use the gym to track in you are gaining or loosing muscle. My belief is that unless you are prepping for stage and get dick skin lean, then you should be able to maintain 99% of your muscle on a cut. Its really only those last couple of weeks of hell before stage where muscle gets hard to keep.

Id say dont worry about the inches and all that. Keep smashing the log book, step on the scale at the same time each day and track you diet correctly. The results will come.

 

[KvanH]

Here's some advice on finding your new maintenance calories and 'coming out' from a cut.

 

[Smont]

Many thanks for the reply.

Right, I thought it may be achievable to be honest. My goal is to add lean muscle and especially add an inch to my arms… I have read that to add 1 inch to your arms you need to gain 10lbs of muscle, would you say it’s definitely out of reach and I should lower my expectations?

10lbs of actual per year is about the most someone on steroids can ask for. You can gain 20-30lbs on s cycle, but much of it will be cosmetic.

Idk if you follow any pro bodybuilding, but if you go look at all the top guys and go back to when they first started bodybuilding. 10lbs a year seems to be the increase in stage weight, which is muscle mass not just weight.


So while you absolutely can gain 10lbs and put a inch on your arms fairly fast, its fat and water, not muscle. Building muscle takes time.

Also, If you're eating X amount of calories, and you're not gaining any weight at all, then you're not in a surplus. Its as simple as that unless your type 1 diabetic or have some kinda overactive thyroid condition or something like that. For me to grow from 210-220 i need about 4500 calories a day to cover my lifting, job and daily life calorie needs

 

[Smont]

I just reread your post, @150lbs your eating 3400 calories and not gaining weight, i missed that. Something dont add up.

You definately can get your metabolism cranking on a cut but not like this, i was cuttimg a few months back, i went from 210 tp 180 and 3000-3400 is what i need around 200lbs.

Im extreamly active too, manual labor job, lots of boxing and wrestling on top of lifting for a little over a hour 4x week. I wasnt even doing traditipnal lifting, i was carrying heavy ****, flipping tires, farmers walks. Weighted chins.

Basically i was a furnice burning calories all day.

I have a guy right now whos 230 and hes eating 3000 cal a day working construction and lifting 4 days a week.

Sorry for the dragged out post. Im havinh a hard time putting 2+2 togther here.

I will add this, some ppl are just natural smaller people, my buddy is 5'4 and was 130lbs until 3 or 4 years ago and hes up to 155 and deadlifting 450 and benching 220 now. But hes kinda maxed out and is playing a game of inches now unless he goes to the dark side. Now if he was 5'9 155, id just tell him to eat more.

 

[rob111]

I just reread your post, @150lbs your eating 3400 calories and not gaining weight, i missed that. Something dont add up.

You definately can get your metabolism cranking on a cut but not like this, i was cuttimg a few months back, i went from 210 tp 180 and 3000-3400 is what i need around 200lbs.

Im extreamly active too, manual labor job, lots of boxing and wrestling on top of lifting for a little over a hour 4x week. I wasnt even doing traditipnal lifting, i was carrying heavy ****, flipping tires, farmers walks. Weighted chins.

Basically i was a furnice burning calories all day.

I have a guy right now whos 230 and hes eating 3000 cal a day working construction and lifting 4 days a week.

Sorry for the dragged out post. Im havinh a hard time putting 2+2 togther here.

I will add this, some ppl are just natural smaller people, my buddy is 5'4 and was 130lbs until 3 or 4 years ago and hes up to 155 and deadlifting 450 and benching 220 now. But hes kinda maxed out and is playing a game of inches now unless he goes to the dark side. Now if he was 5'9 155, id just tell him to eat more.

It’s exactly what I’m thinking, I really don’t know why I’m not gaining still.

Back in October last year I got really ill in and out of hospital, won’t bore you with it but I went from 163lbs to 185lbs in 6 months from not moving much or training at all, hence the drastic cut after that since around May coming down to where I am now.

Would it help if I upload a pic, then you can make a judgement on my body type.

 

[Smont]

It’s exactly what I’m thinking, I really don’t know why I’m not gaining still.

Back in October last year I got really ill in and out of hospital, won’t bore you with it but I went from 163lbs to 185lbs in 6 months from not moving much or training at all, hence the drastic cut after that since around May coming down to where I am now.

Would it help if I upload a pic, then you can make a judgement on my body type.

I dont think its going to help us figure out the calorie situation but you cut 30+lbs, i bet its a dramatic before and after from 185 to 150

 

[Smont]

Id post them regardless. I love having my begore and after pics. It's hard to see the changes day-by-day. But when you got those pictures that are thirty pounds apart. That's a big difference

 

[rob111]

Pictures attached are around 3 months apart, I regret not taking one a couple of months before when I was at my heaviest, but the first picture is around 6 weeks into my cut

 

[Smont]

Pictures attached are around 3 months apart, I regret not taking one a couple of months before when I was at my heaviest, but the first picture is around 6 weeks into my cut

Ya it would have been cool to see the heaviest but still good job, even those to pics show solid progress. Sometimes when we look bad we dont wanna look lol. But i always take pictures anyway. Ive got quite a few pics of myself when i went off the rails and looked like a bloated dadbod to the fullest. It makes the transformation so much sweeter at the end.

Whats the odds your not accurately tracking that 3400? Seeing how you just came out of a long cut. I know the odds are probably slim that you're not tracking your food correctly. But i figured id ask anyway

 

[Resolve10]

You got a ton of good advice so I don’t have a bunch to add, just know everyone is a bit different it may take a little to get into an actual surplus as you switch gears. I’d personally make small increases each week if you weren’t actually gaining until you start gaining at the rate you want.

How long have you been training? That will be a big factor in how long it takes to add muscle. Regardless it’s usually slower than people assume so try to just enjoy the process and good luck!

 

[rob111]

Ya it would have been cool to see the heaviest but still good job, even those to pics show solid progress. Sometimes when we look bad we dont wanna look lol. But i always take pictures anyway. Ive got quite a few pics of myself when i went off the rails and looked like a bloated dadbod to the fullest. It makes the transformation so much sweeter at the end.

Whats the odds your not accurately tracking that 3400? Seeing how you just came out of a long cut. I know the odds are probably slim that you're not tracking your food correctly. But i figured id ask anyway

Appreciate it! Yes I think that’s why I didn’t take pictures at first as I hated how I looked!

Im confident I’m tracking correctly, but good to mention it. I use MyFitnessPal daily, input everything down to the milk in my coffee

 

[rob111]

You got a ton of good advice so I don’t have a bunch to add, just know everyone is a bit different it may take a little to get into an actual surplus as you switch gears. I’d personally make small increases each week if you weren’t actually gaining until you start gaining at the rate you want.

How long have you been training? That will be a big factor in how long it takes to add muscle. Regardless it’s usually slower than people assume so try to just enjoy the process and good luck!

Thanks!

Been training for around 14 years, took a year out at one point due to injury, but on and off for that long. Although now, after being so ill for so long I am taking it as serious as possible and my dedication and commitment is higher than ever

 

[Smont]

One thing i would definately change is lower the protein to 180ish And replace those calories with more carbohydrates. Being natural and sub 200lbs i dont see a need for 200+gm of pro. Honestly, most naturals 200+lbs are on the fatter side and there lbm is significantly less then there bw and they dont need thst much protein either. Theres nothing wrong with that amount, But I'd rather see you using those extra calories for carbohydrates, especially around your workouts.

Out of curiosity, since you came out the cut and are eating more, Is the strength going up, are you adding weight to the bar faster?

If so thats a good sign that calories are not too low

 

[rob111]

One thing i would definately change is lower the protein to 180ish And replace those calories with more carbohydrates. Being natural and sub 200lbs i dont see a need for 200+gm of pro. Honestly, most naturals 200+lbs are on the fatter side and there lbm is significantly less then there bw and they dont need thst much protein either. Theres nothing wrong with that amount, But I'd rather see you using those extra calories for carbohydrates, especially around your workouts.

Out of curiosity, since you came out the cut and are eating more, Is the strength going up, are you adding weight to the bar faster?

If so thats a good sign that calories are not too low

I was wondering this myself, 250g protein does seem overkill in my position.

Regarding strength, yes it is going up but slowly, maybe not at quite the rate I’d hoped?

What I struggle with in lowering protein, is that my portions of meat etc are going to be very small and in my head I feel like that isn’t enough to gain muscle, although I guess I am wrong?

When calculating protein, there’s about 12g in a 100g portion of oats, and if I am to lower my protein by 60-70g per day and replace with carbs, it may mean I only eat 2 eggs for example instead of 4… it just doesn’t feel like enough for a meal?

I wake at 5am and train fasted at 5.30am, I eat 6 meals a day, and here is my diet currently:

7am - Post workout shake: 200g Egg whites, 100g oats, banana, 15g honey, 20g whey

9.30am - Overnight oats: 75g oats, 15g whey, 175g high protein yogurt, 130ml skimmed milk, 5g chia seeds, 50g raspberries, 5g honey

12pm - 125g cooked white rice, 90g chicken breast

3pm - 4 Boiled eggs, 75g oats, 100ml skimmed milk, 30g raspberries, 10g honey

6pm - Dinner: Usually around 900 cals of meat or fish with potatoes/rice/pasta, vegetables for example fajitas, curry, chicken thighs, potatoes and coleslaw

10pm - 175g high protein yogurt, 50ml milk, 20g whey

Please critique

 

[Smont]

So your not eating 250gm primarily from animal sources. Your getting a decent amount from your carb sources as is? I typically only count my Protein that comes from things like eggs meet protein powder greek yogurt ect. I do count my other sources of protein but I use. My animal sources as the main number. And I just consider all the other stuff extra. So in your situation id say maybe leave it as is.

 

[Smont]

You're most certainly getting enough protein one way or another tho. The problem is if the majority of your protein is not coming from animal sources that I can see how it's hard to reduce your protein. Because you're reducing your carbs at the same time, That's why I try to keep them separate.

If you don't mind and it's not a big hassle for you, would you mind sending me a dm With your diet, Or what an average day of food looks like for you

 

[Resolve10]

Kinda long post incoming sorry!

Thanks, more good advice

Completely understand what you are saying, I suppose 10lbs of muscle is really 15-20lbs of good weight, so maybe I need to drop my goal to 10lbs of good weight.

I think because I was losing weight so easily, at 1.5lbs per week, I am thinking I can gain muscle at a similar rate and now I know that’s just not how it works.

It is definitely easier to lose than gain, as far as the quality of changes. Considering below about how long you have been training it is going to take a long time to add actual muscle versus losing fat.

I think in general a flexible goal setting approach would be more helpful. Shoot for a timeline if you have to fit it in within certain dates, try to set the right rate you'd like, then just evaluate when you reach the end of the time frame.

Thanks!

Been training for around 14 years, took a year out at one point due to injury, but on and off for that long. Although now, after being so ill for so long I am taking it as serious as possible and my dedication and commitment is higher than ever

Ya just embrace the process, things can be a bit slow, but that doesn't mean they can't still be rewarding.

I was wondering this myself, 250g protein does seem overkill in my position.

Regarding strength, yes it is going up but slowly, maybe not at quite the rate I’d hoped?

What I struggle with in lowering protein, is that my portions of meat etc are going to be very small and in my head I feel like that isn’t enough to gain muscle, although I guess I am wrong?

When calculating protein, there’s about 12g in a 100g portion of oats, and if I am to lower my protein by 60-70g per day and replace with carbs, it may mean I only eat 2 eggs for example instead of 4… it just doesn’t feel like enough for a meal?

You could always just eat fewer meals if you want to keep the meat amounts larger per meal. As long as total intake is fine over the course of the day you should be relatively fine though.

 

[rob111]

You're most certainly getting enough protein one way or another tho. The problem is if the majority of your protein is not coming from animal sources that I can see how it's hard to reduce your protein. Because you're reducing your carbs at the same time, That's why I try to keep them separate.

If you don't mind and it's not a big hassle for you, would you mind sending me a dm With your diet, Or what an average day of food looks like for you

Will do this now

 

[rob111]

Kinda long post incoming sorry!



It is definitely easier to lose than gain, as far as the quality of changes. Considering below about how long you have been training it is going to take a long time to add actual muscle versus losing fat.

I think in general a flexible goal setting approach would be more helpful. Shoot for a timeline if you have to fit it in within certain dates, try to set the right rate you'd like, then just evaluate when you reach the end of the time frame.



Ya just embrace the process, things can be a bit slow, but that doesn't mean they can't still be rewarding.



You could always just eat fewer meals if you want to keep the meat amounts larger per meal. As long as total intake is fine over the course of the day you should be relatively fine though.

Thanks Resolve! Makes me feel a lot better about it all!

 

[Dustin07]

I never caught your age, but on average .25lbs of lean muscle gained per week is pretty solid. Which is pretty close to what smont posted, and also will vary by your previous accomplishments in that regard.

10lbs of actual per year is about the most someone on steroids can ask for. You can gain 20-30lbs on s cycle, but much of it will be cosmetic.

7am - Post workout shake: 200g Egg whites, 100g oats, banana, 15g honey, 20g whey

9.30am - Overnight oats: 75g oats, 15g whey, 175g high protein yogurt, 130ml skimmed milk, 5g chia seeds, 50g raspberries, 5g honey

12pm - 125g cooked white rice, 90g chicken breast

3pm - 4 Boiled eggs, 75g oats, 100ml skimmed milk, 30g raspberries, 10g honey

6pm - Dinner: Usually around 900 cals of meat or fish with potatoes/rice/pasta, vegetables for example fajitas, curry, chicken thighs, potatoes and coleslaw

10pm - 175g high protein yogurt, 50ml milk, 20g whey

I honestly don't like it but I can't put my finger on why. calories are calories, macros are macros. if you're there you're there and a slow bulk could be basically the equivalent of reverse dieting these first few weeks as already posted.

But something about this meal plan doesn't work for me.
I'm picturing your 12pm meal, basically 3oz chicken and 4oz rice. thats less than 1/3rd of what I just ate, on a cut, of ground turkey and rice. 130ml of milk is a 1/2 cup essentially, that's like 4g of protein.

IDK, I'm overshooting here and maybe it all adds up but on the surface this looks like a cutting diet aside from the 10pm meal.

also, WTF are you eating at 10pm, and then eating a post workout meal at 7am? How do you fit 8hrs of sleep + a workout in between those meals? why are you not carb loading/eating preWO?


sorry I don't like it. can't break it down scientifically and I haven't mathed out the rest of the macros but on the surface my caloric baseline is substantially lower than yours and I still wouldn't bulk on this plan.

 

[rob111]

I never caught your age, but on average .25lbs of lean muscle gained per week is pretty solid. Which is pretty close to what smont posted, and also will vary by your previous accomplishments in that regard.






I honestly don't like it but I can't put my finger on why. calories are calories, macros are macros. if you're there you're there and a slow bulk could be basically the equivalent of reverse dieting these first few weeks as already posted.

But something about this meal plan doesn't work for me.
I'm picturing your 12pm meal, basically 3oz chicken and 4oz rice. thats less than 1/3rd of what I just ate, on a cut, of ground turkey and rice. 130ml of milk is a 1/2 cup essentially, that's like 4g of protein.

IDK, I'm overshooting here and maybe it all adds up but on the surface this looks like a cutting diet aside from the 10pm meal.

also, WTF are you eating at 10pm, and then eating a post workout meal at 7am? How do you fit 8hrs of sleep + a workout in between those meals? why are you not carb loading/eating preWO?


sorry I don't like it. can't break it down scientifically and I haven't mathed out the rest of the macros but on the surface my caloric baseline is substantially lower than yours and I still wouldn't bulk on this plan.

I am unsure what you are finding so confusing..? I’m going to break it down the best way that I can and hope that solves it. I am 34 btw.

Regarding the 10pm to 7pm issue:

10:00pm - Meal 6
10:30pm - Sleep
05:00am - Wake, pre workout, drive to gym
05:30am - Train
06:45am’ish - Post workout shake

Should I be waking in the night to eat? Or should I be eating something along with my pre workout, if so what would you suggest? I’m reluctant to get up any earlier than 5am, I start work at 7am.

Regarding breaking down the macros, unless MyFitnessPal is flawed then the macros are correct. Anything I consume is entered into MyFitnessPal and it gives me a total of calories and macros for the day. I enter everything, because anything I eat contains calories which I thought should count towards my daily caloric intake.

I will screenshot a typical day and please for my peace of mind as much as yours, look it over and see if I’ve missed something? Some meals like breakfast and lunch actually contain meals 1&2 and 3&4, as it only allows Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner and Snacks.

 

[Dustin07]

I am unsure what you are finding so confusing..? I’m going to break it down the best way that I can and hope that solves it.

Regarding the 10pm to 7pm issue:

10:00pm - Meal 6
10:30pm - Sleep
05:00am - Wake, pre workout, drive to gym
05:30am - Train
06:45am’ish - Post workout shake

I didn't say I was confused, I said I don't like the meal, training, or sleep plan.
I'd eat 3 denser meals a day instead of 6 tiny meals
I'd get rid of the egg whites and eat real eggs or just meat.
I'd get rid of the skim milk and drink whole milk, or just meat
I'd focus on 8hrs of sleep, not 6 1/2 hrs
I'd focus on eating preWO more than postWO
Again, to me, the current meal plan looks more like a cutting plan. and since you're not gaining weight...

10pm - 175g high protein yogurt, 50ml milk, 20g whey

if you're bound and determine to make this your last meal preWO I'd carb load it, personally.

 

[rob111]

I didn't say I was confused, I said I don't like the meal, training, or sleep plan.
I'd eat 3 denser meals a day instead of 6 tiny meals
I'd get rid of the egg whites and eat real eggs or just meat.
I'd get rid of the skim milk and drink whole milk, or just meat
I'd focus on 8hrs of sleep, not 6 1/2 hrs
I'd focus on eating preWO more than postWO
Again, to me, the current meal plan looks more like a cutting plan. and since you're not gaining weight...



if you're bound and determine to make this your last meal preWO I'd carb load it, personally.

Apologies. It sounded like you were confused about a few things I’d posted. My mistake.

8 hours of sleep isn’t possible for me. Before having kids maybe, but now my evenings are taken up and having to start work at 7am - 5pm and then be home to do dinner and routines, it just isn’t feasible. I could go to bed at 9pm however it would give me no downtime to switch off from my day.

I wouldn’t really agree that it is 6 tiny meals, meals 1 and 2 are around 600 calories each, dinner is 900-1000 calories. Plus if I ate 3 times a day of around 1150 calories a time, I would struggle to down all that in one sitting, I also find eating more frequently keeps me fuller and stops me snacking.

If I changed egg whites to whole eggs, whole milk from skimmed milk, it would add another 20 - 30 grams of fat into my diet and I don’t want to go above 25% as I want to keep carbs high.

I would ideally like to eat before I train, but again it means probably getting up even earlier so that I can, which then sacrifices sleep. I just feel that in a perfect world we could do all of those things, but it doesn’t happen in real life so I have to compromise as best as I can.

I will try and take these things on board though.

 

[Dustin07]

Then I'd toy with two things:

if possible, get to bed earlier and wake up earlier. If not possible, I'd still carb load at dinner so that the session was more productive in the morning. probably drink a carb loaded preWO drink or juice at wake-up.

I wouldn’t really agree that it is 6 tiny meals, meals 1 and 2 are around 600 calories each, dinner is 900-1000 calories. Plus if I ate 3 times a day of around 1150 calories a time, I would struggle to down all that in one sitting, I also find eating more frequently keeps me fuller and stops me snacking.

I mean at the end of the day I'm saying I don't think this looks like a bulking plan and you're telling me you're losing weight so you can argue all you want but I think the meal plan is the problem. your 12pm "meal is like 300 calories. 130 in rice and 165 in chicken.

for comparison sake, I just now pounded a 310 calorie 71g bowl of rice preWO unrelated to the rest of my meals today and I'm cutting at the moment.

IMO, the oats are filling. I'd get something more nutrient dense. a lot of the calories are liquid. the quantities are screwy. again, and I have said this a couple times it's my experience and perspective that the meals could be improved.

 

[Resolve10]

I am unsure what you are finding so confusing..? I’m going to break it down the best way that I can and hope that solves it. I am 34 btw.

Apologies. It sounded like you were confused about a few things I’d posted. My mistake.

I will try and take these things on board though.

You weren 't confusing. A lot of what you laid out I assumed over the years had been altered based on your preferences.

I didn't say I was confused, I said I don't like the meal, training, or sleep plan.
I'd eat 3 denser meals a day instead of 6 tiny meals
I'd get rid of the egg whites and eat real eggs or just meat.
I'd get rid of the skim milk and drink whole milk, or just meat
I'd focus on 8hrs of sleep, not 6 1/2 hrs
I'd focus on eating preWO more than postWO
Again, to me, the current meal plan looks more like a cutting plan. and since you're not gaining weight...

if you're bound and determine to make this your last meal preWO I'd carb load it, personally.

Honestly, what kind of response is this and the other one you had earlier in here? Comments like these are why I hate helping people out in these kinds of threads because it inevitably just becomes messy when people overwhelmingly chime in with things that are preferences that don't really have much value in helping find deficiencies in why someone may have asked the question they asked.

Meal frequency isn't as important as what is going on over the entirety of the day, if he is tracking in MFP accurately a wide range of meal counts can be fine.

Who cares if you like "real" eggs or meat over egg whites. It isn't your diet. Egg whites are perfectly fine if he wants something devoid of fat. Same with milk, that is a weird criticism.

Plenty of people don't eat directly pre-workout, again overall macronutrient intake over a 24 hour period is going to be more important. Especially when taking into account the sacrifices some people may make for scheduling.

Sleep ya he could sleep more, but again not everyone has the luxury to do that with certain obligations in life.

And again, who cares what you need to eat for cutting or bulking, this isn't your diet. I am gaining on less than he is eating, everyone's situation is different even if there tend to be general trends we all follow.

Rob got a ton of good advice already though so he seems on the right track. Things might just take a little time to stabilize and he can always just keep adding a little at a time to get things progressing, no need for weird attacks on his personal preferences in meal frequency/amounts or when he chooses to train. Just isn't helpful.

 

[Dustin07]

preferences that don't really have much value in helping find deficiencies in why someone may have asked the question they asked.

which is also why I was clear to state based upon my own experience and observation, I don't argue this at all. But when I read through the meal plan to me I'm not seeing a real solid approach for a bulking target.

Plenty of people don't eat directly pre-workout,

totally agree which is why I suggested a change in the late night meal

need to eat for cutting or bulking, this isn't your diet.

I agreed with that too but unless his metabolism is ramping up with the reversal, the current meal plan obviously isn't working. And we all know it could take a few weeks or even a month+ to find out.

no need for weird attacks on his personal preferences in meal frequency/amounts or when he chooses to train. Just isn't helpful.

ah, yeah if it came off attacking then I apologize for sure. not my intention, but getting into the meat and potatoes of the post (which there isn't a lot of meat and potatoes in the meal plan lol) I stand by my observations. I don't think the current setup is truly conducive to success and his current results at the moment are kind hinting that i'm not wrong.

 

[Dustin07]

I will try and take these things on board though.

no need for weird attacks on his personal preferences in meal frequency/amounts or when he chooses to train. Just isn't helpful.

@rob111 if I came off that way I apologize

 

[Resolve10]

which is also why I was clear to state based upon my own experience and observation, I don't argue this at all. But when I read through the meal plan to me I'm not seeing a real solid approach for a bulking target.



totally agree which is why I suggested a change in the late night meal



I agreed with that too but unless his metabolism is ramping up with the reversal, the current meal plan obviously isn't working. And we all know it could take a few weeks or even a month+ to find out.

He is eating 375g of carbs over the day he doesn't need to carb up the night before a workout, unless he just prefers eating more at night and wants to shift them there.

His meal plan literally just started and he got the advice he needed, he needs to either just wait it out a little more or he can just add some more to get it moving in the right direction.

I'll stop there though, Rob seems like a good guy and seems on the right track I won't clog further.

 

[rob111]

You weren 't confusing. A lot of what you laid out I assumed over the years had been altered based on your preferences.



Honestly, what kind of response is this and the other one you had earlier in here? Comments like these are why I hate helping people out in these kinds of threads because it inevitably just becomes messy when people overwhelmingly chime in with things that are preferences that don't really have much value in helping find deficiencies in why someone may have asked the question they asked.

Meal frequency isn't as important as what is going on over the entirety of the day, if he is tracking in MFP accurately a wide range of meal counts can be fine.

Who cares if you like "real" eggs or meat over egg whites. It isn't your diet. Egg whites are perfectly fine if he wants something devoid of fat. Same with milk, that is a weird criticism.

Plenty of people don't eat directly pre-workout, again overall macronutrient intake over a 24 hour period is going to be more important. Especially when taking into account the sacrifices some people may make for scheduling.

Sleep ya he could sleep more, but again not everyone has the luxury to do that with certain obligations in life.

And again, who cares what you need to eat for cutting or bulking, this isn't your diet. I am gaining on less than he is eating, everyone's situation is different even if there tend to be general trends we all follow.

Rob got a ton of good advice already though so he seems on the right track. Things might just take a little time to stabilize and he can always just keep adding a little at a time to get things progressing, no need for weird attacks on his personal preferences in meal frequency/amounts or when he chooses to train. Just isn't helpful.

Really appreciate this Resolve

Yes you’re right so basically over the years I’ve learnt what I can eat easily and what I find hard to stomach etc, so my diet reflects that.

I have always been of the opinion that more frequent smaller meals are better than 3 big calorie dense meals. My preference, and as you say I think over a 24 hour period this doesn’t matter too much.

Sleep is definitely the what I would like to improve on. I am consistent with everything, training, diet etc, but I really do struggle to get more than 6.5 hours. I try to make sure I don’t get less. At weekends I tend to get 7.5ish. But as you say, personal circumstances like family & work commitments make it very difficult to get what’s known as an ideal amount!

Have definitely got some great advice which I appreciate

 

[Jstrong20]

I'll go against the grain. Lol at 149lbs and coming off a cut I think 10 lean lbs is possible. Sure it might not be 10 lbs of contractile muscle tissue but fluids count as lean weight. From your cut you are probably glycogen depleted so as soon as you up your calories some the cells will be volumized with glycogen and water. When I come off a hard cut I put on 10lbs almost overnight. Lol There is no magic formula and everybody is different. But if it was me I would expect to hit 170. 10lbs water/glycogen, 5lbs muscle, 5lbs fat if doing a slow bulk. Throw some creatine in for good measure should be easy.

 

[Dustin07]

Sleep is definitely the what I would like to improve on. I am consistent with everything, training, diet etc, but I really do struggle to get more than 6.5 hours. I try to make sure I don’t get less. At weekends I tend to get 7.5ish.

I think most people can relate to that, it does seem like sleep is one of the most common things we all struggle to do well and most of us 9-5'er types do play some level of catch up on Saturday, no doubt there.

that last 18 months or so when I shifted gears to a caloric surplus and slowly started putting on some size I started feeling like a teenager even before I changed my supplement stack, in that I had some new level of lethargy and interesting soreness as I was growing. the sleep came easier because quite frankly I was exhausted

I've known people who seem to function very well off what seems like very little sleep but I feel like crap with less than 8, and honestly my back gets sore if I sleep in to 9hrs. 8 seems like a sweet spot for me

 

[MrKleen73]

I think most people can relate to that, it does seem like sleep is one of the most common things we all struggle to do well and most of us 9-5'er types do play some level of catch up on Saturday, no doubt there.

that last 18 months or so when I shifted gears to a caloric surplus and slowly started putting on some size I started feeling like a teenager even before I changed my supplement stack, in that I had some new level of lethargy and interesting soreness as I was growing. the sleep came easier because quite frankly I was exhausted

I've known people who seem to function very well off what seems like very little sleep but I feel like crap with less than 8, and honestly my back gets sore if I sleep in to 9hrs. 8 seems like a sweet spot for me

Yeah, my sweet spot is about 6.5 hours. Pretty much always has been. I get too many 8 hour sleeps in a row I get lethargic. I know, kind of odd, but it is what it is. Unfortunately I am averaging about 5.5 with my current schedule, but it is the time I have available to make things work while not making my family sacrifice time with me for my goals. I tend to get in about 8 hours on the weekends now to make up for it.

 

[rob111]

Before having kids, I used to make sure I got 8 hours religiously, any less and I would be really cranky. Reason being is because I always read if you want to build muscle you should be getting 8 hours of quality sleep.

However now that I’ve got kids and I know that I’ve been able to function on 3 or 4 hours of sleep, I’m happy getting between 6 and 7 hours, and to be honest I’m in much better physical shape now than I was when I got 8 hours, but I am putting a lot more effort into everything else now too.

 

[Dustin07]

Before having kids, I used to make sure I got 8 hours religiously, any less and I would be really cranky.

I think I was the opposite, before kids I was probably operating on 4hrs a lot better, lol. I remember going duck hunting at 3am after staying up past midnight on particular new years eve

 

[MrKleen73]

I think I was the opposite, before kids I was probably operating on 4hrs a lot better, lol. I remember going duck hunting at 3am after staying up past midnight on particular new years eve

That was the day you shot Cheney in the face eh? Y'all remember that craziness?

 

[Dustin07]

That was the day you shot Cheney in the face eh? Y'all remember that craziness?

technically you're a lot closer to the crime scene than me!

 

[MrKleen73]

technically you're a lot closer to the crime scene than me!

Was it Cheney that got shot or did he shoot the other guy accidentally. It was so long ago I don't remember the details but it was a crazy story.

 

[Dustin07]

Was it Cheney that got shot or did he shoot the other guy accidentally. It was so long ago I don't remember the details but it was a crazy story.

he shot the other guy lol. I think they were quail or pheasant hunting... sorta an easy mistake to make when you're swinging across the field at a flying bird

 

[MrKleen73]

he shot the other guy lol. I think they were quail or pheasant hunting... sorta an easy mistake to make when you're swinging across the field at a flying bird

Or a horrible miss on an attempted murder, we may never know!