The Definitive guide to Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)

Ninjo

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I was wondering this as well...thought PP is wet...2 years ago I did an PP/SD bridge...bloat at first but dried out at the end...keep most if not all except the water weight...mine looked like this...

wk1: PP 20mg
wk2: PP 20mg
wk3: PP 10mg/SD 10mg
wk4: SD 20mg
wk5: SD 20mg
If I were to run a PP/SD cycle, I would do it almost exactly as you described except I would use 30mg in weeks 1 and 2 and 20mg in week 3 with the 10mg of SD. I have run PP several times in the past (matter of fact I'm currently halfway thru a PP/Mega-TRN cycle) and I tolerate 30mg of PP quite well (i.e. no lethargy, BP issues, back pumps, etc.).

The other reason I'd put SD at the end is due to its potentially devastating impact on lipids...in other words, after taking SD, I want to try and get my HDL/LDL levels back on track asap and a SERM such as Nolva in PCT helps to do this.
 
qwerty33

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doesnt phera mess with lipids just as much?

if i could get the original Phera should i get that. even tho its past exp?
 
Ninjo

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doesnt phera mess with lipids just as much?

if i could get the original Phera should i get that. even tho its past exp?
I'm pretty sure Phera does exert an undesirable effect on lipids, just not as great as SD which often reduces HDL (i.e. good cholesterol) into the single digits. :jaw:
 
Ninjo

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doesnt phera mess with lipids just as much?

if i could get the original Phera should i get that. even tho its past exp?
I've only ever used AX Phera but I'm sure there are some legit clones out there. The Phera I'm using now expired in 02/09 but it had been vacuum sealed a couple of years back to preserve freshness.
 
qwerty33

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ill prob go with cel p-plex and stock up. i know a site that has the origional with exp this feb but if i store it and use it in 2 years it it will be way past due
 
Ninjo

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ill prob go with cel p-plex and stock up. i know a site that has the origional with exp this feb but if i store it and use it in 2 years it it will be way past due
From what I've read on this board, vacuum sealing will extend shelf life by ~5 years; ~10 years if you vacuum seal it and store it in the freezer
 
bulldogz

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If I were to run a PP/SD cycle, I would do it almost exactly as you described except I would use 30mg in weeks 1 and 2 and 20mg in week 3 with the 10mg of SD. I have run PP several times in the past (matter of fact I'm currently halfway thru a PP/Mega-TRN cycle) and I tolerate 30mg of PP quite well (i.e. no lethargy, BP issues, back pumps, etc.).

The other reason I'd put SD at the end is due to its potentially devastating impact on lipids...in other words, after taking SD, I want to try and get my HDL/LDL levels back on track asap and a SERM such as Nolva in PCT helps to do this.
I might try PP at 30/20/10 and keep the SD around the same this time around since it was a great cycle for me...might & might not increase the PP...just uneasy on how it will take a toll on the liver...

From what I've read on this board, vacuum sealing will extend shelf life by ~5 years; ~10 years if you vacuum seal it and store it in the freezer
kept mine in the freezer this whole time, but vacuum seal then freezer sounds even better...never thought of that...
 
qwerty33

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do you know if torem works as effectively as nolva on the breast tissue if one were to get puffy nipps or gyno symptoms while on a DS cycle? I know you rec it best for pct. but what about gyno prevention.

also what would you rec if gyno symptoms occur during a cycle? just add in the torem/ nolva and continue cycle or stop cycle and..?
 

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This thread has been pretty interesting and helpful but i do have a question.

Im going to be doing a pulse cycle of epistane, probably 8 weeks. concerning pct what would people recommend? would the TRS be enough? Ive heard epi is pretty mild and pulsing is supposed to help with that as well...just looking for some advice.

Also would people recommend taking something else on the off days?
 
Eric Potratz

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This thread has been pretty interesting and helpful but i do have a question.

Im going to be doing a pulse cycle of epistane, probably 8 weeks. concerning pct what would people recommend? would the TRS be enough? Ive heard epi is pretty mild and pulsing is supposed to help with that as well...just looking for some advice.

Also would people recommend taking something else on the off days?
I really advise against the pulsing. I would recommend a steady dose that you are comfortable with, and just run a 6 week cycle. Its very important to keep blood levels elevated for optimal results from a steroid compound.

If you stick with a 6 week cycle or less then the TRS will more than enough for PCT.

-Eric
 

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ok, thanks for the advice i will consider switching from pulsing to a straight cycle. I was just wanting to make sure it was safe since i wasn't going to be using a serm.
This will be my first cycle of epi, do you have any advice of what i should be taking during my cycle? I was going to be taking animal flex since i hear joints can get pretty sore, taurine in case of back pumps, should i take toco-8 on cycle or save it for pct?
Sorry for all the questions but i appreciate the help
 

zzetter

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Great post Eric, very informative. As a beginner I have two questions, anyone is welcome to answer. I am about to start my first cycle of testosterone cypionate 200-300mg every other week. I will be using Nolvadex during my cycle, and PCT. What I would like to know is, when do I start my Nolvadex, 2 weeks after my first injection, or right after my injection? Secondly, someone can PM me the answer to this if they prefer. What is a reputable dealer where I can buy hCG? My source where I got my testosterone from doesn't offer it. I looked around on google, but am a bit skeptical.
 
Eric Potratz

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ok, thanks for the advice i will consider switching from pulsing to a straight cycle. I was just wanting to make sure it was safe since i wasn't going to be using a serm.
This will be my first cycle of epi, do you have any advice of what i should be taking during my cycle? I was going to be taking animal flex since i hear joints can get pretty sore, taurine in case of back pumps, should i take toco-8 on cycle or save it for pct?
Sorry for all the questions but i appreciate the help
People have always seen great results stacking Dermacrine with Epi. Its a slightly wet prohormone that will help add gains to the cycle while limiting joint and libido problems associated with lowering estrogen too much.

Toco-8 is fine on cycle too.

-Eric
 
Eric Potratz

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Great post Eric, very informative. As a beginner I have two questions, anyone is welcome to answer. I am about to start my first cycle of testosterone cypionate 200-300mg every other week. I will be using Nolvadex during my cycle, and PCT. What I would like to know is, when do I start my Nolvadex, 2 weeks after my first injection, or right after my injection? Secondly, someone can PM me the answer to this if they prefer. What is a reputable dealer where I can buy hCG? My source where I got my testosterone from doesn't offer it. I looked around on google, but am a bit skeptical.
Dont use the nolvadex during the cycle. There is no reason for it. Save it for PCT 2 weeks after your last shot.

We cant help you on the sourcing here.

-Eric
 

zzetter

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I just wanted to avoid water retention, and gyno if that ever arises. Should I run an AI instead? If so, which do you recommend? Also, I've decided that I'm probably going to go with 300mg of cyp a week.
 
Eric Potratz

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I just wanted to avoid water retention, and gyno if that ever arises. Should I run an AI instead? If so, which do you recommend? Also, I've decided that I'm probably going to go with 300mg of cyp a week.
You probably are not going to have a problem at only 200-300mg week. If you think you are super sensitive to estrogenic effects you would be fine with any of the available steroidial AI's during the cycle like formestane, 6-bromo, ATD, ect.

-Eric
 
qwerty33

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hey eric would a steroidal ai stop puffy nipples / gyno symptoms while on a phera/sd cycle as well? would one just throw in the ai till the symptoms stop and continue cycle as usual?

for ex ATD @50mg till symptoms stop?

also in pct does torem act on the brest tissue like nolva does in the same way?
 
Eric Potratz

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Yes, toremifene will act very simlar to nolva as a SERM, its just slighly less toxic to the liver.

I would lower the dose of the offending pro-hormone, start vitex, and a start a low dose of one of the above mentioned AI's.

-Eric
 
Trauma1

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qwerty33

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I gained mass and leaned out with the TRS as my pct. Will use in all my pcts
 
qwerty33

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Would Activate Xtreme by Driven Sports work well with the TRS. Or maby just bulk Divanex which is known to free up test that is bound. Any thoughts
 
Eric Potratz

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Would Activate Xtreme by Driven Sports work well with the TRS. Or maby just bulk Divanex which is known to free up test that is bound. Any thoughts
Whats in the Activate Xtreme these days?

-Eric
 
qwerty33

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I dont like that its a prob blend just curious if bulk Divanil would be good to add since i have read that it frees up bound testosterone.


"Divanil™ [95% 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran From Urtica Dioica], Icarrin (Standardized 20% Extract Of Epimedium), Rhodiola Rosea (3% Rosavins), Proanthocyanidins (Proprietary Pine Bark Extract), Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C), Basella Alba PE (10:1), Zinc Aspartate"
 
Akula

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...The goal with SERM’s is to dose them for maximum benefit with minimal side-effects, and only use them when they are necessary. If your cycle is longer than 6 weeks, and you are not running hCG during the cycle, then I recommend a SERM...
Hello,
I have a quick question from the text i quoted above.
Basically your saying if you do use HCG on cycle then can forgot the SERM?

I am currently going to run a Dec/Sus cycle for about 8 weeks. With HCG like you advice 250iu every 4 days. But after these steriods clean my body which will be 3 weeks after my last shoot, i'm wondering if i should run a SERM, i've done my research but i care what you have to say.

Also so for a 8 week cycle(of Dec/Sus) i would run HCG from weeks 3-9? if HCG has to be finished 2 weeks before the clearance of the AAS and Dec/Sus have a 3 week clearance?

Thank you in advance...
 
Eric Potratz

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Hello,
I have a quick question from the text i quoted above.
Basically your saying if you do use HCG on cycle then can forgot the SERM?

I am currently going to run a Dec/Sus cycle for about 8 weeks. With HCG like you advice 250iu every 4 days. But after these steriods clean my body which will be 3 weeks after my last shoot, i'm wondering if i should run a SERM, i've done my research but i care what you have to say.

Also so for a 8 week cycle(of Dec/Sus) i would run HCG from weeks 3-9? if HCG has to be finished 2 weeks before the clearance of the AAS and Dec/Sus have a 3 week clearance?

Thank you in advance...
Yep, weeks 3-9 would be fine for the PCT.

Thats going to be a pretty suppressive cycle. Id consider the use of toremifene with the TRS for PCT for the fastest recovery. (Torm - 40mg/day for 30 days)

-Eric
 
Eric Potratz

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I dont like that its a prob blend just curious if bulk Divanil would be good to add since i have read that it frees up bound testosterone.


"Divanil™ [95% 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran From Urtica Dioica], Icarrin (Standardized 20% Extract Of Epimedium), Rhodiola Rosea (3% Rosavins), Proanthocyanidins (Proprietary Pine Bark Extract), Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C), Basella Alba PE (10:1), Zinc Aspartate"
The divanil should be fine during PCT.

-Eric
 
qwerty33

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Best otc PCT esp for the new Superdrone that they just came out with :)
 
Trauma1

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Primordial Performance's Liver Juice LV - A new on-cycle liver support supplement.




Steroids for your Liver

We think Liver Juice is so awesome; it could be called Liver Steroids.

But of course, we didn’t want to give the product a bad name.

It appears that milk thistle does to the liver, what anabolic steroids to do the muscles. Milk thistle turns a weak liver to a strong liver (except milk thistle has zero side effects). (1-4)

Ironically, after a formal review of the most current scientific literature on milk thistle, it appears milk thistle has specific protective effects against anabolic/androgenic steroid induced liver toxicity. We will present new and exciting research later in this article.

What’s most disappointing (and damaging to milk thistles reputation) is that 90% of the milk thistle products on the market have super poor absorption at only about 8%. (5-14) Therefore, we had to go the extra mile and create a liquid formula that would actually get milk thistle where it needs to be -- in the liver.

Before I show you exactly how milk thistle works I want to tell you about our impressive accomplishment with our Liver Juice formula, and the break though delivery system. Read on



Meeting the challenge – Mr. Milk Thistle


Try to image mixing a handful of chalk into a glass of water, you would see it either sink to the bottom or precipitate to the top -- that’s pretty close to how well milk thistle mixes into a glass of water.

To show the exceptional solubility accomplished with the milk thistle in our Liver Juice, we went ahead and took a 5mL dose (500mg) of Liver Juice and mixed it into a glass of water. We then took 500mg of the exact same milk thistle extract used in our Liver Juice, and vigorously shook it into a glass of water. Then they sat for 12 hours



As you can see, the milk thistle in Liver Juice remained completely stable and molecularly dispersed in the liquid. The milk thistle powder alone simply crashed to the bottom of glass. (“crash” means to crystallize, separate or no longer be in solution -- aka, not be absorbed into the body)

BTW, what you just witnessed was the result of about 119 hours in the lab, and about 12 months of research.

Anyway, we managed to make a nice milk thistle formula... but listen to why this is so important...



Membrane Invagination

Obviously, milk thistle does not dissolve in water, and hardly dissolves in most oils. (7) This inability to dissolve means milk thistle is very difficult to be absorbed by the human body, since the larger particles cannot pass though the walls of the digestive tract. (5-8, 12) In fact, milk thistle extract alone only absorbs at a rate of about 8% in humans. (5-14)

Unless nutrients are dispersed to micro-particle size, they simply won't be absorbed by the intestines. In order to get the maximum amount of milk thistle absorbed into the body we had to accomplish 3 things when formulating Liver Juice -

1. Modify the Liqua-Vade delivery system so milk thistle can complexly dissolve.

2. Make sure it remains dissolved once mixed in an aqueous environment (such as the stomach).

3. Make it safe and acceptable for drinking.

We ended up accomplishing all 3 goals. But it certainly wasn’t easy.



Editors note: Some of you home chemistry buffs are probably thinking milk thistle could just dissolve into some basic solvent like alcohol or glycerin. That may accomplish the 1st goal, but as soon as those water soluble solvents become diluted in a glass of water they would lose their solvent capacity and that milk thistle would fall out of solution and crash right to the bottom of the glass, therefore putting milk thistle right back to where it started.


Liqua-Vade – Tailored for Mr. Milk Thistle


Because the milk thistle flavones are such stubborn little molecules, we had to custom tailor our Liqua-Vade delivery system just for Liver Juice. We used a precise ratio of 12 different pharmaceutical grade carriers, phospholipids and fatty esters to dissolve our high potency milk thistle into a fine homogenous solution (while managing to give it a nice sweet almond taste).

Rest assured, our Liqua-Vade delivery technology isn’t some hyped up sugar water. It’s based on Self-Emulsifying Drug Delivery System (SEDDS) science, which is backed by dozens of 3rd party human clinical trials and is currently one of the hottest research fields in modern day drug delivery (5-7)

Over the years there have been other attempts at enhancing delivery of milk thistle, however Liqua-Vade delivery technology (SEDDS) trumps them all. (5-14) Just take a look





Bile acids - Liver Cleaners

Bile acids are the liver’s detergents -- flowing through the cellular channels all throughout the liver.

There are dozens of different bile acids created by the liver, all of which are metabolites of cholesterol. Essentially, they are created to dissolve and mobilize toxic material and export it from the liver and into the intestines for excretion. Different bile acids are needed to dissolve and carry different toxins from the liver.

In general, bile acids are your friends. However, certain drugs (including methylated steroids) cause the liver to slow bile acid production, and create a bile acid insufficiency, as well as cause a build up in the hepatotoxic bile acids (15-23) This makes a mess, and causes the liver to get jammed up fast. If the liver gets clogged up enough where bile can no longer flow from the biliary channels, a condition develops known as reversible cholestasis. (the primary condition developed from methylated steroids and birth control use) (15-23)

Luckily this liver condition is reversible. If you have suffered some toxic effects from steroids (or other drugs) you still have a chance to turn it around for the better.


Bile Acid – The Doctors Choice

Bile acid is the drug of choice prescribed to anabolic steroids users admitted for drug induced cholestasis. The drug is known as Ursodiol -- a.k.a. ursodeoxycholic acid. This naturally occurring bile acid is known for its hydrophilic action and ability to detoxify the liver by cleaning out less hydrophilic bile acids, among other toxins such as methylated hormone metabolites. (19, 24-27)

Unfortunately, Ursodiol is an expensive prescription drug, and not easily obtainable.

As I mentioned earlier, there is new and exciting research on milk thistle that we are excited to present. Research has shown us milk thistle has the ability to increase production of this protective bile acid -- ursodeoxycholic acid (at the same relative dose delivered by Liver Juice) (18-23)


The West Side Liver Gang – Cleaning up the Trash

The main active ingredients in milk thistle are flavonolignans, known as silichristin, silidianin, isosilibinin, and the most biologically active player, silybin (Our milk thistle extract is standardized to 30% silybin). (1-4)

When these milk thistle flavonolignans enter the liver they don’t mess around. They immediately start circulating the liver to signal sluggish and under-producing liver cells to pick up the production of liver cleansing bile acids, esspecialy the hepatoprotective variety such as ursodeoxycholic acid. It appears that silybin stimulates Cyp7a1 and Cyp3a enzymes to encorage conversion of cholesterol towards protective and hydrophilic bile acids. (18-23)

Now here is the clincher...

Studies have shown that milk thistle can reverse the down-regulating effect on bile acid production even during the administration of methylated steroids. So when steroids are in the liver inhibiting production of the beneficial bile acids, milk thistle steps in and ramps up beneficial bile acid production while enhancing the export of built up toxins (and methylated steroids) from the liver. (18-23, 28)



Liver Juice - Quick to Battle

With our Liqua-Vade delivery system, the active milk thistle flavones will reach the liver fast. Once absorbed through the intestines the biologically active flavones are immediately carried into the liver, where they begin stimulating the liver cells to revive detoxifying bile acid production. (8,9)

In animals with cholestasis induced from methylated steroids, milk thistle has been shown to significantly restore bile production and bile outflow in less than 5 days. (19-21) However we do encorage "pre-conditioning" the liver with Liver Juice two weeks prior to any methylated oral steroid cycle, while continuing use throughout the entire cycle.



Liver Juice – The Timeless Miracle Worker

Liver Juice (milk thistle) has been used safely to treat various liver diseases for thousands of years. Out of the dozens of published scientific papers on milk thistle, no harmful side-effects have ever been found. (1-4)

It was nearly 2000 years ago when Pliney The Elder noted that milk thistle juice was excellent for “carrying off bile”. (29) I guess it appears he was right after all.



Get it now!

Click here for Liver Juice-LV!



Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 5cc (5mL oral syringe)

Servings per container: 50


Amount Per Serving %DV*


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Milk Thistle Extract (Silybum marianum) 500mg**

(standardized to 80% silymarin)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minimum total flavonolignans 400mg**


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Silybin 150mg**


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Daily Value

**Daily Value not established


Other Ingredients: Other ingredients: Liqua-Vade Technology [Distilled water, exthoxylated sorbitan trioleate, dimethyl isosorbide, ethyl oleate, sorbitan monolaurate, ethoxylated mono and di-glycerides, medium chain triglycerides, grape spirits, sesame oil, phospholipid complex (phosphatidylcholine, lysophosphatidylcholine), glyceryl triacetate, tocopheryl acetate, hydroxyproply methylcellulose], malt syrup, natural almond flavor, sucralose, trisodium citrate, simethicone, potassium sorbate, sodium benzoate, citric acid†, sucrose†. † Used for food grade adhesive on syringe adapter
NOTICE:
No artificial color

This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.


 
qwerty33

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eric or trama, is there any reason to use the endoamp max starting day 15? instead of day 1 to control cotrisol? I hear mixed reviews on when to add cort control

i will be useing it more for cort control as im on clomi with the TRS
 
Trauma1

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eric or trama, is there any reason to use the endoamp max starting day 15? instead of day 1 to control cotrisol? I hear mixed reviews on when to add cort control

i will be useing it more for cort control as im on clomi with the TRS
You can add it in on Day 1 for sure. The EndoAmp Max isn't suppressive to the hormonal axis.

-John
 
qwerty33

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You can add it in on Day 1 for sure. The EndoAmp Max isn't suppressive to the hormonal axis.

-John
not worried about suppression, but when it maximizes cort control. Some say cortisol levels stay low for 2 weeks post cycle then rise. thats where adding it in wk 2-6 would come in. Any comments on this?
 
Ninjo

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not worried about suppression, but when it maximizes cort control. Some say cortisol levels stay low for 2 weeks post cycle then rise. thats where adding it in wk 2-6 would come in. Any comments on this?
I'm interested in this as well...I typically start using a cort control as soon as I start PCT but have read of a few that wait until the third week of PCT to start using something to address this concern.
 
CopyCat

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Many people do begin their cort control around the 15 day mark of PCT. Cort would have been suppressed from the cycle and slowly begins to rise during PCT. It of course won't rise over night and some people don't see a reason for starting cort control any earlier than they have to (maybe they like to minimize amounts of things they take or money is a factor). So, they wait till it rises to start it. Around 2-3 wks into PCT it should be fairly up there. When I used Lean Xtreme that's how I would do it. However, with EndoAmp Max and it's many benefits beyond just cort control such as improving testosterone/GH production and improving recovery I don't see a reason why you wouldn't want to start it day1. Especially since as Trauma pointed out that it isn't suppressive to the hormonal axis, it stands to be beneficial the whole time.
 
qwerty33

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only conern is that cort will rise again after wk 4 and the endoamp max is done. im on wk 1 1/2 of pct just started taking it
 
Jimbo15

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only conern is that cort will rise again after wk 4 and the endoamp max is done. im on wk 1 1/2 of pct just started taking it
EAM will decrease the spikes in cortisol while using it. So it will no longer be reducing these spikes once you stop using it.
 

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