Superdrol + Pheraplex = Hypo

[jonny21]

Maybe you can do a search on pubmed if you want some research, I don't know if there's any, it is fairly basic knowledge that fructose replenishes liver glycogen before anything else.

Fructose isn't metabolised as sugar by most tissue. Only the liver can turn the fructose into glucose. That is how it replenishes its glycogen stores first. Dextrose, OTOH, goes to your bloodstream, which is OK, but too much of it will trigger insulin, and it is absorbed by ALL tissue, which makes dosing for keeping the glycemia up much more difficult than using fructose. You might use some of both...

The reason why it doesn't raise blood sugar as quick as the other ones is that the liver watches glycemia and will only release new glucose from fructose IF glycemia is low enough. It is a comparatively slow process, but that's good. In other words, I'd much rather have my liver gradually release glucose into my bloodstream when I'm close to hypo than have to ingest slow/medium/fast carbs all the time and risk triggering insulin while also being on hypoglycemia inducing supplements.........

Oh, and the work involved for the liver is EXTREMELY trivial. Don't worry about THOSE enzymes... Worry about the ones trying to metabolize your methylated steroids...

Basic knowledge is that fructose can do little except replenish liver glycogen. It is not used preferentially its just has limited use. If your liver glycogen stores are already filled it will be more readily turn into TG's and stored as adipose since it is of relatively no use for peripheral tissues. I got my metabolism of sugars down fairly well.

 

[ss01]

I've read somewhere that the idea that adipocytes can use fructose directly is incorrect. OTOH if you are in a low-blood-sugar state, you can bet your paycheck that your liver's glycogen stores are not full. Oh and I'm not saying to take int 100g of fructose at a time. A couple tablespoons will do. Plus, fructose cannot trigger insulin. This is good.

 

[chasec]

I am not too sure that is the case after reading this. I would expect your BS to be low after am cardio on an already glycogen depleted liver. If you had replenished glycogen stores prior to cardio and then came back with a low that would be out of the norm. If you don't mind be a guinea pig , try 45-60 grams of carbs 2 hrs prior to cardio and then check the BS. That way we know you had some liver glycogen to work with in the first place.

i'll give this a go friday AM as i only do cardio 3x week.

and as far as liver enzymes are concerned; i'm not worried. it's only 50mg total of a methylated substance. people take more dbol, var, drol, etc. on a mg to mg basis everyday and test out fine. it's not like theirs a hepatotoxic synergy going on when you stack 2 methylated substances together. i'm not saying don't be careful, but some of this danger is over hyped. regardless i'll get my enzymes checked when i'm done and report back

 

[jonny21]

I've read somewhere that the idea that adipocytes can use fructose directly is incorrect. OTOH if you are in a low-blood-sugar state, you can bet your paycheck that your liver's glycogen stores are not full. Oh and I'm not saying to take int 100g of fructose at a time. A couple tablespoons will do. Plus, fructose cannot trigger insulin. This is good.

Not adipocytes using fructose, but unused fructose conversion to TG's(fat) is more likely since only select tissues have fructokinase to convert fructose. I think I see what you are saying/your point. In the case of low blood sugars what would the reasoning for adding fructose to make liver glycogen to make glucose to increase BS levels. Sounds like consistent low to mod GI CHO intake would solve the entire issue. Unless of course it intentional to Cardio in an unfed state to increase fatty acid metabolism. Would only do that if "ON" or taking some other anti-catabolic aid.

 

[ss01]

Yes but my main problem with the consistent low to mod GI CHO intake is that it is somewhat impractical, and going overboard will trigger insulin. This stops lipolysis and may very well send the glycemia to extremely low levels, since the pancreas will release insulin based on its knowledge of how much insulin is required for this much sugar. It doesn't know you are taking drugs that are making you hypo easily, and as such, will easily overdose insulin. So here you have the situation that you are stopping lipolysis, augmenting lipogenesis, AND still stuck with hypoglycemia, possibly much worse than to begin with. It is a slim line to walk. If one can do it, fine, but I still think it is impractical.

And please do correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that fructose cannot be converted directly to triglycerides, but needs to be converted to some form of glucose first....?

 

[jonny21]

Yes but my main problem with the consistent low to mod GI CHO intake is that it is somewhat impractical, and going overboard will trigger insulin. This stops lipolysis and may very well send the glycemia to extremely low levels, since the pancreas will release insulin based on its knowledge of how much insulin is required for this much sugar. It doesn't know you are taking drugs that are making you hypo easily, and as such, will easily overdose insulin. So here you have the situation that you are stopping lipolysis, augmenting lipogenesis, AND still stuck with hypoglycemia, possibly much worse than to begin with. It is a slim line to walk. If one can do it, fine, but I still think it is impractical.

And please do correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that fructose cannot be converted directly to triglycerides, but needs to be converted to some form of glucose first....?

I think acetyl coA is the intermediary, not glucose.

If it is impractical then you need to check your routine and diet because it is really quite simple. Every 2.5-3.5 hrs eat some form of low to moderate CHO. Not forgetting the protein of course.

All increase in BS will trigger insulin. Insulin is not the problem. Overeating is the problem. Insulin is secreted in response to Serum Glucose levels which is closely regulated.

What we are trying to figure is if their is increased glycogen storage s'dary to SD or if there is some kind of liver dysfunction screwing with release of liver glycogen stores and their release. At least that is what I thought. SD is the wildcard in the equation since intakes remain usual except BS are lower. Correct me if I am wrong, and I'll go play in another sandbox.

 

[ss01]

Yes I see your point.

If the problem is at the liver's glycogen release, of course fructose is of no help. OTOH, if it's exaggerated glucose uptake as a side of SD, then the CHO intake might trigger TOO MUCH insulin. And that can be a serious problem.

I guess we've both got good arguments that make sense, but not a definitive solution to this problem... I don't. At least not until we know exactly what is going on here. One way to find out is to regularly ingest only small amounts of fructose (yes, that again) and if the hypo feeling is bad, then the liver-glycogen-doesn't-release-its-stores theory stands. Otherwise if it's not too bad, then the additional sugar uptake as a side effect of SD stands.

Correct?

 

[jonny21]

There we go. Chasec has so graciously volunteered to test the liver glycogen idea.
I hear you on the fructose it does replenish liver glycogen stores quickly but who knows exactly how many grams the liver will actually store? If I recall correctly it might be 100-150 grams of glycogen. Probably easier to ingest 45-60 grams 2 hours prior to am Cardio with a quick glucometer check just before workout.

 

[ss01]

Yes it is "up to 200g" obviously there are variations. That's a LOT of sugar, BTW. That's why I keep on going about fructose, because it is true that in LARGE doses it can be detrimental, but otherwise it is simply glycemia-insurance. Well, I must admit to being prone to rebound hypoglycemia... In retrospect I think it shows in my posts on this thread...

So I guess now we wait for the verdict? :yawn:

 

[same_old]

and as far as liver enzymes are concerned; i'm not worried. it's only 50mg total of a methylated substance. people take more dbol, var, drol, etc. on a mg to mg basis everyday and test out fine. it's not like theirs a hepatotoxic synergy going on when you stack 2 methylated substances together. i'm not saying don't be careful, but some of this danger is over hyped. regardless i'll get my enzymes checked when i'm done and report back

yes, there can very well be hepatotoxic synergy going on. can you prove otherwise? stacking 2 very strong 17aa's goes against broology 101 and just isnt a great idea.

 

[SilentScream27]

yes, there can very well be hepatotoxic synergy going on. can you prove otherwise? stacking 2 very strong 17aa's goes against broology 101 and just isnt a great idea.

but following broology is stupid. the point stands: people stack anadrol and dbol at higher doses for longer periods of time. not saying it is good for the health like pure test might be, but its not really much worse than either of the compounds on their own.

to each their own, though, let him be in any case.

 

[same_old]

but following broology is stupid. the point stands: people stack anadrol and dbol at higher doses for longer periods of time. not saying it is good for the health like pure test might be, but its not really much worse than either of the compounds on their own.

to each their own, though, let him be in any case.

people stack dbol and drol? probably - stupid people who ignore the admonitions of broologists who know better. ask a responsible juicer about that wonderful cycle and he'll probably laugh at you (i would, anyway)

yes, the impact to liver of 17aa's for brief periods is probably overstated, but the other toxicity issues of strong methyls (cholesterol, HBP, heart enlargement) makes for stacking of them to be generally a bad idea.

 

[ss01]

MOST people who juice are stupid as crap.

 

[chasec]

MOST people who juice are stupid as crap.

i won't argue; but i will state that i don't fall into that category. i've run enough cycles and had enough bloodwork drawn post cycle to know how my body responds and what line NOT to cross. 28 days of 50mg/QD methylated substance is NOT a huge deal. a weeklong drinking binge which is quite normal for some people will put your enzymes way above what this cycle will do to me.

 

[chasec]

yes, there can very well be hepatotoxic synergy going on. can you prove otherwise? stacking 2 very strong 17aa's goes against broology 101 and just isnt a great idea.

there is no synergy; please don't make me dredge out some pubmed crap...

 

[chasec]

but following broology is stupid. the point stands: people stack anadrol and dbol at higher doses for longer periods of time.

i didn't compare what i'm doing to stacking drol, dbol, var, etc. i simply said that the average daily dose of each of those compounds is ~50mg and higher for the drol. bottom line is my liver is processing 50mg of methylated substance a day, and that's not gonna kill it. in 2 weeks my liver enzymes will be back to normal and i'll be on the way to HPTA recovery

 

[ss01]

Oh, yes, I didn't mean you. I'm glad you saw that... I'm talking about the vast majority who would never even think of finding out about what they are doing to their bodies otherwise than asking "This is good, right?" to the guy who is SELLING them their illegal gear. :sad:

 

[MarcusG]

Is it alright to assume liver enzymes tell the whole story when it comes to assessing the relative safety of stacking ?

 

[ss01]

I think it is important to remember that liver enzymes are TRYING to metabolize hormones. Metabolizing here means to turn them into something else, that is, to neutralize them. Now, non-methylated hormones break down as a result of their interaction with these enzymes. So? One takes MORE of those same hormones which are broken down, etc. The liver works hard, and the better your liver, the more gear you need for a certain amount in your blood.

Now with methylated gear, no matter how much enzymes the liver makes, these enzymes are UNABLE to metabolize the hormones. Thus, if you were able to shut down or greatly diminish the production of these enzymes during any cycle, you will be much better off. Otherwise, you need a way to get rid of the excess enzymes, which will otherwise wreak havoc on your liver.

Well, just to clarify things, since some may not know these all-important details. OK so we need some of those supplement companies to get on this ASAP. Well, they MIGHT be on this already...

Hey, I'm wondering... Since supplements now exist to selectively antagonize BOTH the androgen and estrogen receptors on ... I forget which gland ... Maybe they are close to finding a way to do this at the liver???

 

[DR.D]

Yes it is "up to 200g" obviously there are variations. That's a LOT of sugar, BTW. That's why I keep on going about fructose, because it is true that in LARGE doses it can be detrimental, but otherwise it is simply glycemia-insurance. Well, I must admit to being prone to rebound hypoglycemia... In retrospect I think it shows in my posts on this thread...

So I guess now we wait for the verdict? :yawn:

It is ironic that fructose has often been blamed for the onset of diabetes in children that later develop hypoglycemia in adulthood.

 

[chasec]

Is it alright to assume liver enzymes tell the whole story when it comes to assessing the relative safety of stacking ?

probably not; however it's a good starting point. i'm sure there's a whole host of biological markers that would indicate damage done.

 

[chasec]

ok, well i did the carbup before my run. since i had 200g cho in me i went and extra 1.5 miles and actually felt pretty good. the pump in my calves/quads hurt, but nothing that would make me stop running. as for the blood glucose, when i awoke it was a 61.
right before the run it was up to an 84, and after the run (immediately; the reading was BEFORE i ingested my PWO drink) was a mild 69.

take from it what you will

 

[atrain]

Are you going to keep your stack at 30 mg sd and 20 mg pp for 4 weeks ?

 

[ss01]

What kind of carbs did you have?

Why do you run?

 

[chasec]

Are you going to keep your stack at 30 mg sd and 20 mg pp for 4 weeks ?

yes

 

[chasec]

What kind of carbs did you have?

Why do you run?

i run for various reasons; keeping a check on BP, cardiovascular health, plus i just have gotten to the point where i like it.

oh, as to the carbs i had whole rolled oats, brown sugar, and milk

 

[ss01]

Are you willing to try again with just fructose? Say, 100g with maybe a little bit of oats depending on what johnny21 says. That should cover you. The idea is to know what exactly is going on here. That way, everyone will benefit, including yourself.

 

[jonny21]

ok, well i did the carbup before my run. since i had 200g cho in me i went and extra 1.5 miles and actually felt pretty good. the pump in my calves/quads hurt, but nothing that would make me stop running. as for the blood glucose, when i awoke it was a 61.
right before the run it was up to an 84, and after the run (immediately; the reading was BEFORE i ingested my PWO drink) was a mild 69.

take from it what you will

Hey Bro,
Just looking for some info and I want to get the timeline down. You woke up with BS 61mg/dl. You ingested 200g of CHO? Too much at one time IMO, if so. Waited ~2hrs tested 84mg/dl then went running. How long & how far? BS after running was 69mg/dl.
Prior to SD did you ever test your am BS? To be honest a BS around the neighbor hood of 70 is pretty good, as long as there are no negative sides i.e. dizziness, nausea and such. Do you have a test kit for your Glucometer? Have you run it recently to check its calibration?
Wow, I am reading this back and realized what a lunatic I am.

 

[ss01]

Wow, I am reading this back and realized what a lunatic I am.

Bro, that is DEEP. You're having someone else take carbs before running so you can find out if you're a lunatic? Science will never cease to amaze me!! :dance:

Seriously, any OTHER conclusion? Does he try again with fructose?? :blink:

 

[chasec]

Hey Bro,
Just looking for some info and I want to get the timeline down. You woke up with BS 61mg/dl. You ingested 200g of CHO? Too much at one time IMO, if so. Waited ~2hrs tested 84mg/dl then went running. How long & how far? BS after running was 69mg/dl.
Prior to SD did you ever test your am BS? To be honest a BS around the neighbor hood of 70 is pretty good, as long as there are no negative sides i.e. dizziness, nausea and such. Do you have a test kit for your Glucometer? Have you run it recently to check its calibration?
Wow, I am reading this back and realized what a lunatic I am.

godbless man, that's a big fucking question. as far as calibration, no i've not calibrated it in recent memory. as far as sides, when i dip below 60 i start experiencing dizziness. when i go to k-mart to pick up new test strips i'll get a new kit, they are only like 45 bucks now. i've been wanting one with the built in memory so i don't have to write this **** down.

as to why i have the test kit, theirs a strong trend toward type II in my family, so i picked it up at wally world to keep an eye on things. I'll go get a new kit, and than do the 100g fructose experiment some time this weekend

 

[chasec]

what would you guys recommend for 100g fructose?

 

[jonny21]

what would you guys recommend for 100g fructose?

To be honest, I wouldn't recommend consuming 100 grams of fructose. Maybe 20 to 30 grams of fructose (orange juice comes to mind) with an additional 20 to 30 from a low GI source. That's cause I am a 60 gram max CHO per meal type of guy.

I have no emotional attachment to any form of CHO, I just like to use what works for me. For the most part, I take in all forms except High GI throughout the day. But i won't hesitate to consume High GI in small amounts (15-30 grams) with my creatine PWO.

Here is some info regarding fructose. I usually like to read just the facts in articles like this and ignore most of the theories and correlations. From the AJCN: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/4/537

 

[texas]

when i take sdrol alone, i take it preworkout, how do you take your phera plex and superdrol when you take them together? all preworkout? or split? and also have you had any sides yet, just curious?

 

[DR.D]

when i take sdrol alone, i take it preworkout, how do you take your phera plex and superdrol when you take them together? all preworkout? or split? and also have you had any sides yet, just curious?

I'd take the PP morning and pre-w/o and the SD post-w/o and night. I base this on androgenic, anabolic and suppressive qualities of both. Try not to exceed 40mg total for over a month, unless you get bimonthly bloodwork from an informed doc.

 

[texas]

I'd take the PP morning and pre-w/o and the SD post-w/o and night. I base this on androgenic, anabolic and suppressive qualities of both. Try not to exceed 40mg total for over a month, unless you get bimonthly bloodwork from an informed doc.

i wasnt even going to go over 20mg, i was planning on this
WK
1 phera plex @ 20mg
2 phera plex @ 20mg
3 phera plex @ 20mg
4 phera plex @ 10mg / sdrol @ 10mg
5 phera plex @ 10mg / sdrol @ 10mg
6 sdrol @ 20mg
7 sdrol @ 20mg
8 sdrol @ 20mg

just took the one on AX and decresed the mg's, thanks for the info Dr. D

 

[DR.D]

i wasnt even going to go over 20mg, i was planning on this
WK
1 phera plex @ 20mg
2 phera plex @ 20mg
3 phera plex @ 20mg
4 phera plex @ 10mg / sdrol @ 10mg
5 phera plex @ 10mg / sdrol @ 10mg
6 sdrol @ 20mg
7 sdrol @ 20mg
8 sdrol @ 20mg

just took the one on AX and decresed the mg's, thanks for the info Dr. D

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were going to stack them. I like what you have above better. Much safer I think and still effective. If gains start to slow down at week 4 or 5, you may consider 30mg SD in wks 6 & 7 only. 2 months is a long time to keep responding to the same dose.

 

[texas]

Much safer I think and still effective. If gains start to slow down at week 4 or 5, you may consider 30mg SD in wks 6 & 7 only. 2 months is a long time to keep responding to the same dose.

yea, the one they had on AX was like PP 30mg and SD 30mg, i am glad you thought that my cycle i posted was safer, yea ill probably at least go 30 mg on week 7 and maybe 6, thanks dr D

 

[ss01]

YIKES! 30mg of each? Do you have a link? I *HAVE* to see that. AND the bloodwork... If there is any...

 

[texas]

DR. D can you look at this for me, for some reason i cant PM anyone, thanks

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=360037#post360037

 

[DR.D]

yea, the one they had on AX was like PP 30mg and SD 30mg, i am glad you thought that my cycle i posted was safer, yea ill probably at least go 30 mg on week 7 and maybe 6, thanks dr D

No problem, Tex. Always glad to help. Just don't tell the guys at AX or DS. We license both of these compounds to them and it's probably not good for sales when I tell you to reduce the dose! Nevertheless, I will not give advise that I feel would put you at unnecessary risk. Orals are not as bad as they say, but do deserve extra respect. I'll check out your thread.

 

[Pit Bull]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were going to stack them. I like what you have above better. Much safer I think and still effective. If gains start to slow down at week 4 or 5, you may consider 30mg SD in wks 6 & 7 only. 2 months is a long time to keep responding to the same dose.

Sorry if this has been answered already but why such a long cycle? Before it was usually 3 weeks of SD and now that PP is out your saying weeks 1-5 PP then weeks 4-8 SD. Why so long? Please shed some light on this.

 

[DR.D]

Sorry if this has been answered already but why such a long cycle? Before it was usually 3 weeks of SD and now that PP is out your saying weeks 1-5 PP then weeks 4-8 SD. Why so long? Please shed some light on this.

I never really recommended short cycles. Except for beginners or people using M1T or people with short windows of contest prep. It's a good idea when you're doing something new also, I don't exceed a month in that case. But generally, people freak out when their transaminase goes over 60 or their HDL drops under 10. That’s why they do short cycles I guess. I don't blame them, but I make more lasting gains on 2-3 month cycles. It’s just my choice. I don't suggest a time frame for anyone. If someone asks me advise, I try to gear it on the safe side or ask them what their time frame is. Some people can make good gains using SD @ 30mg/d for 3 wks. Not me, I have to ease into it starting at 10mg. It really depends on what you’re trying to get from it and what risks you’re prepared to accept. I take a handful of support supps and oils and pray it all works out. That’s really all you can do, or just avoid it to begin with.

 

[diminuendo]

I did my SD run in the early days, and ran it six weeks, before all the lipid concern. first weeik 10mgs, second, third, fourth, and fifth: 20mgs, and sixth @ 30mgs. After a 5 week pct, and a month of recovery supplementation, my bloodwork was right where it started. I never test right after cycle. I test after pct and recovery as this is when I expect to be back to normal. I figure the numbers will be ugly right afterwords, that is a given. Get bloodwork after a night of hard drinking. What did you expect?

 

[M(0)NSTER]

I'm doing a pp/sd cycle right now and running a log over at BB. Those starting dosages are rather high, and from what I'm experiencing, I would never stack the two. I'm getting great solid gains from PP right now(30mg), but they are not nearly as lean as with SD...expected. I'm on my 2nd week and I've gained 8lbs in 7 days. Now, the reason I wouldnt stack is because SD is a drying effect on my body that I like to see, so if I'm taking PP with the SD then I'm not going to dry out like I want to. I'm running PP for 3 weeks, then switching over to SD for the last 3 weeks.

 

[Pit Bull]

I never really recommended short cycles. Except for beginners or people using M1T or people with short windows of contest prep. It's a good idea when you're doing something new also, I don't exceed a month in that case. But generally, people freak out when their transaminase goes over 60 or their HDL drops under 10. That’s why they do short cycles I guess. I don't blame them, but I make more lasting gains on 2-3 month cycles. It’s just my choice. I don't suggest a time frame for anyone. If someone asks me advise, I try to gear it on the safe side or ask them what their time frame is. Some people can make good gains using SD @ 30mg/d for 3 wks. Not me, I have to ease into it starting at 10mg. It really depends on what you’re trying to get from it and what risks you’re prepared to accept. I take a handful of support supps and oils and pray it all works out. That’s really all you can do, or just avoid it to begin with.

The lipid thing is the reason why I kept my SD cycle short. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Big_E]

I did my SD run in the early days, and ran it six weeks, before all the lipid concern. first weeik 10mgs, second, third, fourth, and fifth: 20mgs, and sixth @ 30mgs. After a 5 week pct, and a month of recovery supplementation, my bloodwork was right where it started. I never test right after cycle. I test after pct and recovery as this is when I expect to be back to normal. I figure the numbers will be ugly right afterwords, that is a given. Get bloodwork after a night of hard drinking. What did you expect?

Agreed, I think that you actually hit the nail on the head rather nicely. If most guys got bloodwork done after a weekend of drinking hard liquor and beer with their buddies, they would probably never touch another drop of alcohol again. You have to give your liver time to regenerate and your hdl/ldl cholesterol time to balance out....then get blood work done and after 2 months, if your numbers are still out of whack....then you have real cause for some concern.

 

[DR.D]

I'm doing a pp/sd cycle right now and running a log over at BB. Those starting dosages are rather high, and from what I'm experiencing, I would never stack the two. I'm getting great solid gains from PP right now(30mg), but they are not nearly as lean as with SD...expected. I'm on my 2nd week and I've gained 8lbs in 7 days. Now, the reason I wouldnt stack is because SD is a drying effect on my body that I like to see, so if I'm taking PP with the SD then I'm not going to dry out like I want to. I'm running PP for 3 weeks, then switching over to SD for the last 3 weeks.

Good reasoning. I have similar opinions on it. PP up front and SD at the end has clear advantages in suppression, estrogen and anabolism as well.

 

[bda55]

Good reasoning. I have similar opinions on it. PP up front and SD at the end has clear advantages in suppression, estrogen and anabolism as well.

I'm thinking of running a bulking cycle around november, would you recommend a similar cycle as this with M1T instead of SD?

I was thinking of running:

Week 1-3 PP 20mg
Week 4-6 M1T 10-15mg
Week 1-6 4-AD transdermal 400-600mg

 

[DR.D]

I'm thinking of running a bulking cycle around november, would you recommend a similar cycle as this with M1T instead of SD?

I was thinking of running:

Week 1-3 PP 20mg
Week 4-6 M1T 10-15mg
Week 1-6 4-AD transdermal 400-600mg

Oh, that's a tough one! I hate putting M1T at the end, but in this stack I would. Should be a great gainer.

 

[bigpetefox]

Week 1-3 20mg PP

Week 4-6 20mg SD

This should be interesting.. See ya in a month!