Yo, I got a tub of soy protein from my buddy, I was wondering when the best time to use this stuff is, i use whey pre/post. Maybe before bed time? I donno let me know what you think
Yep that is true.I've read studies that say that large amounts of soy protein can increase estrogen levels...or that it contains phytoestrogens that can mimic estrogen.
that's from excessive soy intake in any form.I've read studies that say that large amounts of soy protein can increase estrogen levels...or that it contains phytoestrogens that can mimic estrogen.
Flax seed is said to be a phytoestrogen as well.that's from excessive soy intake in any form.
I'll see your "Elite" fitness, and raise you an AM:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/17698-whole-soy-story.html
Soy IS estrogenic: *any* bodybuilder old enough to have their natural test levels ramp down is fighting a constant battle against the rise of estrogen. IMO there are NO benefits to soy that are not rendered meaningless by the simple fact that estrogen must be strictly controlled.
Never...Yo, I got a tub of soy protein from my buddy, I was wondering when the best time to use this stuff is, i use whey pre/post. Maybe before bed time? I donno let me know what you think
and your age is...?
Not trying to tussle w/ ya, bro - different strokes & all that: I'm still dealing w/ VAT accumulated during an illness, and I've been struggling to get estrogen/aromatase under control & rebuild normal test levels. The article I linked is the thing that got me thinking about soy in a different way, and it's been a helpful/productive way of looking at it *for me*...and I suspect would be for anyone who ended up similarly.
...................Department of Medicine, University of Medicine and Dentistry
of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, New Brunswick, NJ , USA. [email protected]
...
Serum LH concentrations decreased during the 4-week use of soy protein powder then increased within 2 weeks after we stopped the soy protein powder, but the changes did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.20). ...
...............Department of Anatomy, Physiology and Pharmacology, 109 Greene Hall, Auburn University, Auburn, Alabama 36849, USA. [email protected]
...Although steroidogenesis was decreased in individual Leydig cells, male rats from the highest exposure group (1000 ppm diet) exhibited elevated serum levels of the sex steroid hormones androsterone at 21 d (control: 15 +/- 1.5 vs.28 +/- 3.5 ng/ml; P < 0.05) and testosterone at 90 d of age (control: 7.5 +/- 1 vs.17 +/- 2 ng/ml; P < 0.05). ...
The conclusion here is far from admissible.Department of Food Science and Nutrition, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA.
....Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and androstenedione concentrations, and tended to suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is uncertain..
Yes, but there is enough evidence present for me to stay away from using large amounts of soy. I do feel, however that soy in small amounts in a mixture of whey and milk is OK.The conclusion here is far from admissible.
This study is hard to interpret because some of the subjects were also consuming whey protein with the soy. How do we know if was the soy and not the whey that kept the serum testosterone normal. Also, this study reinforces the benefit of Whey due to the fact that it decreased estradiol.Despite the influence of the whey-lobby, supplementation with soy protein has been shown to neither reduce serum testosterone levels nor inhibit lean mass. As a matter of fact, a soy-whey combination is more effective than a whey-only or soy-only alternative, in terms of hormone modulation. You might want to see the following recent (2007) study published in the Journal of the International Association of Sports Nutrition: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1997115
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007; 4: 4.
Published online 2007 July 23. doi: 10.1186/1550-2783-4-4.
PMCID: PMC1997115
Copyright © 2007 Kalman et al; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.
Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones
Douglas Kalman,corresponding author1 Samantha Feldman,1 Michele Martinez,1 Diane R Krieger,1 and Mark J Tallon1
1Miami Research Associates, Nutrition/Endocrinology Division, Miami, Florida, USA
corresponding authorCorresponding author.
Douglas Kalman: [email protected]; Samantha Feldman: [email protected]; Michele Martinez: [email protected]; Diane R Krieger: [email protected]; Mark J Tallon: [email protected]
Received June 14, 2007; Accepted July 23, 2007.
Abstract
Background
Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes.
Methods
For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12.
Results
Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 ± 1.1 and 0.9 ± 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (-9.1 ± 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033).
Conclusion
This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
Quite an intensive avatar you have, Myth!... How mch soy do you use strag?
Curious strat. How come not use a whey/casein mix? I have nothing against soy in limited amounts (although don't use it since I don't go out of my way to purchase it) but it seems with the casein you will get the beneficial slow release of AA (or even a soy casein mix).Quite an intensive avatar you have, Myth!
My protein shake is a whey-soy combination. About 50% each way. Depending on my protein intake from other sources, I can do about 100g (=50g whey and 50g soy) daily.
The idea was to figure out if whey alone, soy alone, or a whey-soy combination was more effective from an anabolic point of view. If you take your time to read the entire study (via the link), you will realize that the soy-whey combination turned out superior to whey alone and soy alone. If soy were complete crap, that conclusion would not have emerged. And, if whey-only were the best of the best, then the whey-soy combination would not have turned out better than pure whey.This study is hard to interpret because some of the subjects were also consuming whey protein with the soy. How do we know if was the soy and not the whey that kept the serum testosterone normal. Also, this study reinforces the benefit of Whey due to the fact that it decreased estradiol.
Casein is fine. No doubt. If you use casein, then you may not need a frequent use of protein shake. I can take a whey-soy combination, in principle, every three or so hours. With casein, the frequency would be less. There is no qualitative loss. If I want to take a slow protein, I prefer egg white. It delivers all the standard goodies. In addition, it is by far the best definition protein around. Lean, dry muscles at their best!Curious strat. How come not use a whey/casein mix? I have nothing against soy in limited amounts (although don't use it since I don't go out of my way to purchase it) but it seems with the casein you will get the beneficial slow release of AA (or even a soy casein mix).
Casein is fine. No doubt. If you use casein, then you may not need a frequent use of protein shake. I can take a whey-soy combination, in principle, every three or so hours. With casein, the frequency would be less. There is no qualitative loss. If I want to take a slow protein, I prefer egg white. It delivers all the standard goodies. In addition, it is by far the best definition protein around. Lean, dry muscles at their best!