Shoulder & Leg Routine. Please evaluate them?

[MrBumboclart]

SHOULDERS:
(done after chest exercises)
8repsx4sets Seated Dumbbell Shoulder Press
8repsx4sets Side Lateral Raises
8repsx4sets Dumbbell Shrugs

Legs are done on a seperate day. These are just the two workouts I'm unsure of.

LEGS:
8repsx4sets Squats
8repsx4sets Leg Press
8repsx4sets Leg Curls

I include only CURLS and not EXTENSIONS because I find my quads are the primary muscle in both of the above lifts (eventhough they are compound) so I feel extra hamstring work is necessary.

Your thoughts please?

Also.. should I switch up the reps&sets on shrugs into a highe range or maybe scrap them all together for upright rows?

 

[PaulBlack]

How many times per week are you doing these?

SHOULDERS:
(done after chest exercises)
8repsx4sets Seated Dumbbell Shoulder Press
8repsx4sets Side Lateral Raises
8repsx4sets Dumbbell Shrugs

What about any standing OHP's?

I include only CURLS and not EXTENSIONS because I find my quads are the primary muscle in both of the above lifts (eventhough they are compound) so I feel extra hamstring work is necessary.

What about RDL's, reg deads, or SLDL's? to help tie the glutes and hams in better?

Also.. should I switch up the reps&sets on shrugs into a highe range or maybe scrap them all together for upright rows?

Why scrap them completely? Traps respond pretty good on quite a few trainees and give you that gorilla look (if that is something you are looking for) Shrugs also aid in helping keep the shoulders back and give you padding for heavy squats. Some guys swear by upright rows, some guys say they hurt the cuff muscles at the top. "High Pulls" might be a better option and hit the traps and delts some. Shrugs are more "trap builders" than actual delts/shoulders.
Lower rep power shrugs can work and so can higher ie: 20-30 rep multi sets for shrugs.

 

[boogyman]

I think you should read the replies we gave you on your last training thread and listen to that advice.

 

[boogyman]

As far as overhead pressing, I always will recommend doing the standing press. Aside from the fact it is more of a compound movement, it has much more carryover to the "real world". I mean, when was the last time you had to lift something heavy over yout head while seated?

 

[Doss]

You're completely neglecting rear delts which is a recipe for disaster. As BM said, you should replace the seated presses with standing OH presses, you should incorporate some face pulls or something more beneficial for the rear delts (also, start with them as you've probably got a structural imbalance going and need to fix that.)

I'm not concerned about the shrugs. There are better alternatives if you're interested in doing some cleans or other oly lifts, but I'm not sure if that's an option and the technical difficulty of the lifts is a turn off for some folks. I'd alternate between high reps and heavy weights, though.

As far as legs go, I think the first two lifts are fine, but leg curls could certainly be replaced by something better. Goodmornings will help your squat numbers keep going up, and straight/stiff leg deads are both better exercises from a functional and hypertrophy standpoint IMO.

 

[Moose45]

Don't do leg presses the same day as squats!! Plus you are doing no rear delt work??? I would also cut your sets/reps down to 2-3/ 4-5 and up the weight! Or do progression style sets: upping the weight each set and dropping the reps. Not sure what your goal is here strength, power ect..??

 

[Bigcountry08]

Don't do leg presses the same day as squats!! Plus you are doing no rear delt work??? I would also cut your sets/reps down to 2-3/ 4-5 and up the weight! Or do progression style sets: upping the weight each set and dropping the reps. Not sure what your goal is here strength, power ect..??

Why not do leg press and squats the same day? I have for years, I find that it finishes off my legs better.

 

[Moose45]

Squeezing out leg presses after squats means that you haven't pushed yourself to complete failure on Squats. Now depending on what you are after power, strength ect.... But if it works for you that is great!! I am saying that doing them on the same day instead of alternating days is not as beneficial. If he is looking for Size the risk of overtraining is present with doing both at the volume he is doing.

 

[asooneyeonig]

the weak link on squats is the low back and not so much the legs. some people want to get bigger or stronger legs and finishing them off with something after squats is a great choice for that. i know my accessory work after squats i will do unilateral and/or non spine loading leg work. anyways, i want to get better at competing, not better at working out.

now there are those that try and get better at training and every lift is a self competition. that could be the cause of the dont do leg press after squats or you didnt do enough on squats.

its a matter of knowing when to use a tool. so dont be a tool and learn to use your tools.

 

[Moose45]

the weak link on squats is the low back and not so much the legs. some people want to get bigger or stronger legs and finishing them off with something after squats is a great choice for that. i know my accessory work after squats i will do unilateral and/or non spine loading leg work. anyways, i want to get better at competing, not better at working out.

now there are those that try and get better at training and every lift is a self competition. that could be the cause of the dont do leg press after squats or you didnt do enough on squats.

its a matter of knowing when to use a tool. so dont be a tool and learn to use your tools.

Look at his volume. That is the point I was trying to make. Sets and reps are to high to get any real power!

 

[asooneyeonig]

Look at his volume. That is the point I was trying to make. Sets and reps are to high to get any real power!

lol, really, 4 sets of 8 is high volume. what do you say to 20 sets of 3? or ten singles? then moving on to multiple sets of 20 with several exercises.

why do i get the feeling: mind = blown.

 

[Moose45]

lol, really, 4 sets of 8 is high volume. what do you say to 20 sets of 3? or ten singles? then moving on to multiple sets of 20 with several exercises.

why do i get the feeling: mind = blown.

Did U read that I wrote??? No power being gained here with sets of 8 reps on everything!!! No progression?!?!? Do his weights being used go up each set?

Why do I get the feeling: mind= get one

 

[asooneyeonig]

Did U read that I wrote??? No power being gained here with sets of 8 reps on everything!!! No progression?!?!? Do his weights being used go up each set?

Why do I get the feeling: mind= get one

yes i did. and i quote the post i questioned, not the other posts.

did you want to get into a pissing match on things that we havent even heard what the OP has planned for? sounds silly. this is the internet i guess. some serious business there! this should be about the OP. and yes, i will call someone out for bad advice. if you want to bring up other things that no else has mentioned or commented on then feel free. i cant stop you. it is an open forum.

it is commonly accepted that sets of 8 will not build power as most people understand it. if you look at this link and hold it to be true:
http://homeworkoutblog.com/how-many-reps-to-build-muscle/
then 8 reps are mediocre at most things.

then you look at 5/3/1 and see a common accessory template that uses 5x10. just 2 reps more and according to that link even less effective at most things. yet it is a proven program and a proven accessory plan for packing on strength and size. and not too much volume either which is interesting at it is too much volume according to a previous post from you. but then the percentages are very specific for that plan which is something that is very important in passing judgement on too much.

back to the OP, what exactly are your goals? have you thought about using a proven program? what is your progression plan? do you plan any deloads? at what percentages are those weights? how often do you plan on doing that program?

 

[Moose45]

How is this BAD advice?? You are arguing with me about loads ?!?! 10x3 would be more of a load issue based on duration of set. Not volume which was my original question to the OP. If he is doing sets of 8 over and over then one can deduce the loads are to low. So before you "call someone out" for bad advice think of the question from that standpoint.

 

[NYiron]

Look at his volume. That is the point I was trying to make. Sets and reps are to high to get any real power!

Your making an assumption, a high power output may not even be his goal. But yet, with the given format, his aim still could be along the lines of power. More specifically power endurance an adaptation which proves useful in a variety of sports. Based on sets and reps you can not determine fully power output or potential for. Your missing key variables including the goal, execution, %1RM, and most importantly bar velocity. Based on his rep range of 8 it is fair to assume the loading is sub-maximal but it is actually under sub-maximal loading where power output potentials will be at their greatest due to the ability to create higher bar velocities.

Also if percentages and programming is correct then 8 reps will be in a range shown to stimulate hypertrophic response. This will lead into increased CSA. With that increased CSA and various other physiological contributions one can expect an increased potential for power output when called upon. Yes, other mechanisms will play a part and will need to be in place in order to take advantage of the increased CSA but for the purpose of examining the hypertrophic potential associated with the OP's squatting template this is all that is relevant.

Squeezing out leg presses after squats means that you haven't pushed yourself to complete failure on Squats. Now depending on what you are after power, strength ect.... But if it works for you that is great!! I am saying that doing them on the same day instead of alternating days is not as beneficial. If he is looking for Size the risk of overtraining is present with doing both at the volume he is doing.

There are varying points of view on taking exercises to failure. One of those which is highly supported is that of keeping the more complex compound lifts such as the squat to technical failure and not complete failure. To recommend one skip leg press because it points to being short of complete failure on squats, would essentially be a recommendation to squat until form completely breaks down. This would be an extremely foolish venture, in the sense that your are supporting utilizing and strengthening compensatory mechanisms to ensure that complete failure is reached. As far as overtraining being a risk with the OPs given training outline, I would say you need to brush up on your ideologies surrounding overtraining.

Did U read that I wrote??? No power being gained here with sets of 8 reps on everything!!! No progression?!?!? Do his weights being used go up each set?
Why do I get the feeling: mind= get one

Power can not be gained only produced. P=F(V). Your definition of progression also seems to be slightly narrow. You keep following it with a reference to weight increases within a workout on a specific exercise. This is just an assumption based on what you have written. I may be wrong in believing your definition to be narrow, but none the less, placing stock in the pyramid approach is less than ideal. The work completed at the desired intensity is sub-par and will leave that approach looking more like a warm-up to one set of the desired relative intensity.

 

[Moose45]

Your making an assumption, a high power output may not even be his goal. But yet, with the given format, his aim still could be along the lines of power. More specifically power endurance an adaptation which proves useful in a variety of sports. Based on sets and reps you can not determine fully power output or potential for. Your missing key variables including the goal, execution, %1RM, and most importantly bar velocity. Based on his rep range of 8 it is fair to assume the loading is sub-maximal but it is actually under sub-maximal loading where power output potentials will be at their greatest due to the ability to create higher bar velocities.

Also if percentages and programming is correct then 8 reps will be in a range shown to stimulate hypertrophic response. This will lead into increased CSA. With that increased CSA and various other physiological contributions one can expect an increased potential for power output when called upon. Yes, other mechanisms will play a part and will need to be in place in order to take advantage of the increased CSA but for the purpose of examining the hypertrophic potential associated with the OP's squatting template this is all that is relevant.

There are varying points of view on taking exercises to failure. One of those which is highly supported is that of keeping the more complex compound lifts such as the squat to technical failure and not complete failure. To recommend one skip leg press because it points to being short of complete failure on squats, would essentially be a recommendation to squat until form completely breaks down. This would be an extremely foolish venture, in the sense that your are supporting utilizing and strengthening compensatory mechanisms to ensure that complete failure is reached. As far as overtraining being a risk with the OPs given training outline, I would say you need to brush up on your ideologies surrounding overtraining.

Power can not be gained only produced. P=F(V). Your definition of progression also seems to be slightly narrow. You keep following it with a reference to weight increases within a workout on a specific exercise. This is just an assumption based on what you have written. I may be wrong in believing your definition to be narrow, but none the less, placing stock in the pyramid approach is less than ideal. The work completed at the desired intensity is sub-par and will leave that approach looking more like a warm-up to one set of the desired relative intensity.

You are right ! Thanks for the update and for correcting my judgement to post on the matter. Was just posing the question which the OP never got back to.