Serm required for andro TD?

[bill86]

Hey everyone,

A bit about myself - 35 years old, been lifting for about 20 years, natural/never taken ph’s or aas. I am looking for something to continue making progress as I seemed to hit a wall a while back.

I have done a lot of research of traditional steroid cycles, but have not found as much regarding Andro products. Many of the threads that I’ve found are several years old and somewhat inconclusive.

I have been interested in running a transdermal product such as Ultra Hard or possibly AndroHard (muscle gelz, not the old PP oral). As this would be my first “cycle”, I want to be prepared. I have not seen much as to whether a serm would be required. Would something such a Sustain Alpha be enough, or would I need a serm? If the latter, would I do a modest dose (such as 10/10/10 of Nolva) or the full dose as if I was coming off something harsher?

Also, with respect to cycle support, I would like to include blood pressure support, especially if I go the Ultra Hard route due to the epiandro. However, would additional support be necessary? I notice a lot of support supplements have saw palmetto, would this be counter-productive due to its impact on DHT?

I realize that these compounds shouldn’t aromatize, but because I have gyno from puberty, I don’t want to take any unnecessary risks. Is there a risk with rebound?

Finally, because it’s my first time, I want to take it slowly to see how my body reacts. Would a 4 week cycle be sufficient, or will i need to go a full 6+ to really notice results?

My initial thought was something along the lines of:

Ultra Hard - begin with 3 pumps per day and increase to the full 5 until the bottle is done
Sustain Alpha - beginning at full dose the day after I finished UH (should I really apply it to my nuts as some people suggest?)
SNS Blood Pressure support throughout (although I’ve heard the andro in the UH can help offset potential spikes from epi, I’d rather be safe

I don’t know, this just seems…. Inadequate? But from what I’ve read it might be sufficient. I’d really appreciate any input. I have about 30 tabs of Nolva 10mg left from when my doctor prescribed it to try and treat my gyno. I also have access to clomid as my friend is prescribed and offered it to me.

Thanks again!

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

Hey Bill,

Tough question to answer when running anytime of andro .. i personally feel like OTC for only epiandro & some sarms .. everything else Serm + Tbooster

You have a serm on hand , always good to have and "see how you feel on it"

but since its TD and its hardest andro and being your FIRST CYCLE .. what i would do

Serm + sustain alpha .. no matter what, wish i seeked advice before running a first cycle , so i can only speak from my mistake and educate people on it

if you do choose OTC .. sustain + other Test booster + cortisol control agent

 

[bill86]

Hey Bill,

Tough question to answer when running anytime of andro .. i personally feel like OTC for only epiandro & some sarms .. everything else Serm + Tbooster

You have a serm on hand , always good to have and "see how you feel on it"

but since its TD and its hardest andro and being your FIRST CYCLE .. what i would do

Serm + sustain alpha .. no matter what, wish i seeked advice before running a first cycle , so i can only speak from my mistake and educate people on it

if you do choose OTC .. sustain + other Test booster + cortisol control agent

Thank you for your response! Would you suggest running the serm for a shorter period? Does the 10mg Nolva sound sufficient?

Do you see any other issues with my cycle, such as only running about 5 weeks and tapering up from 3 pumps to 5 to see how I feel being my first run?

Thanks again!

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

Thank you for your response! Would you suggest running the serm for a shorter period? Does the 10mg Nolva sound sufficient?

Do you see any other issues with my cycle, such as only running about 5 weeks and tapering up from 3 pumps to 5 to see how I feel being my first run?

Thanks again!

no problem.

serm can def be run shorter period ( ive seen numerous 3 weeks w/ test boosters with good recovery )

10mg dosage .. thats a bit low since people like to do 40/30/20 .. i would go with 20/10/10 if any .. you def want to taper off and not completely just discontinue it

as for cycle - i like that layout .. start slow and taper up

 

[KvanH]

The reason you haven't gotten a conclusive aswer, is cause' no one can give it to you. Best would be to draw bloods before and on the last week to see how badly you've been suppressed. I would recommend checking your hormone levels before the use of any hormonals, so you know your baseline. You only have one chance to do so.

I don't get any BP issues from Epiandro myself or from UH, but can't know if you'll get.

I wouldn't sweat about the saw palmetto.

Gyno issues can be difficult to predict. On paper and I would assume most users don't get any gyno issues using or upon cessation of UH, but any time you mess with your hormones, there's a possibility for gyno aggravation. If you use the Nolva, it should help protect you from gyno flare up in pct.

One bottle of UH solo might end up underwhelming. I'd get two personally.

 

[bill86]

The reason you haven't gotten a conclusive aswer, is cause' no one can give it to you. Best would be to draw bloods before and on the last week to see how badly you've been suppressed. I would recommend checking your hormone levels before the use of any hormonals, so you know your baseline. You only have one chance to do so.

I don't get any BP issues from Epiandro myself or from UH, but can't know if you'll get.

I wouldn't sweat about the saw palmetto.

Gyno issues can be difficult to predict. On paper and I would assume most users don't get any gyno issues using or uoon cessation of UH, but any time you mess with your hormones, there's a possibility for gyno aggravation. If you use the Nolva, it should help protect you from gyno flare up in pct.

One bottle of UH solo might end up underwhelming. I'd get two personally.

Thank you for your response! I had actually been planning on getting blood work done and completely forgot to mention that. My GP would only test for test and estradiol when I asked several years ago (around age 30-31) and my test was only 431 (he wouldn’t do free test), so I’ve been wanting to follow up with something more comprehensive and planned on doing it before I start anything to get a baseline.

 

[KvanH]

Thank you for your response! I had actually been planning on getting blood work done and completely forgot to mention that. My GP would only test for test and estradiol when I asked several years ago (around age 30-31) and my test was only 431 (he wouldn’t do free test), so I’ve been wanting to follow up with something more comprehensive and planned on doing it before I start anything to get a baseline.

The Total test is what's is of most interest suppression&recovery wise. SHBG, free T and E2 would be good to know too though.

 

[apples20]

hello! looking for some advice.. im going to run androhard gel. im going to run a low/medium dosage for 4 weeks. what will i need after im off it? i have testrozone gel from the same company i was given to and said it this is my pct.. will this be good enough? i heard sustain ALPHA is a good product to run after. would sustain alpha be good enough after im done with androhard? do i really need to run a serm? thanks.

 

[Smont]

Soooo, @KvanH hit the nail on the head, without getting bloodwork, no1 can answer the question about a serm being necessary. But with that said, if you're not getting blood work and you're going to play The guessing game then that makes the serm kinda necessary to cover your ass.

4 week cycles =waste of time, unless your maybe going through some kinda peaking phase for a strength competition or sport specific thing.

But if your goals are physique related, while you can do a lot in 4-6 weeks, you can't really build much muscle in a short time. I use this example all the time, if the best bodybuilders in the world on boatloads of drugs with perfect diets and training can only add about 10 to 12 lb of muscle per year, how much muscle are we going to build in 4 weeks, pretty much nothing, especially on weaker compounds like Andros and sarms. In my honest opinion, 6 weeks minimum, and 8 to 12 if you actually wanted to see some real progress starting.

I just don't see the point in people screwing around with there hormones for 4 weeks to make little to no progress, then potentially and most likely loose whatever little gain was made after coming off.

If you really wanna make a investment in yourself then at least buy enough product for 8 weeks to start and if you're not checking your blood work get yourself a serm.

If you live in the US you can use my discount code:. smont
to save yourself 15% off over at maresearchchems

Tamoxifen – MA Research Chems

maresearchchems.net

 

[Smont]

And I just went back through your post, I missed the part about you already having nolva on hand.

If you got it, use it.

But I still think you should go longer then 4 weeks, it's a waste.

The whole see how my body reacts things kind of irrelevant to how long you run the cycle because you're going to know how you react within the first week or two in terms of side effects and if you're talking about how you react in terms of results they're just going to be starting around the time you're four weeks is ending.

 

[bill86]

And I just went back through your post, I missed the part about you already having nolva on hand.

If you got it, use it.

But I still think you should go longer then 4 weeks, it's a waste.

The whole see how my body reacts things kind of irrelevant to how long you run the cycle because you're going to know how you react within the first week or two in terms of side effects and if you're talking about how you react in terms of results they're just going to be starting around the time you're four weeks is ending.

Ah, gotcha! I didn’t realize sides would be noticeable so quickly. I guess I also assumed a longer cycle would = more suppression, and therefore, a more miserable PCT. Much of my concern had to do with side effects and not wanting to have a brutal PCT that I sometimes hear about with depression and all that.

Thank you for your help!

Edit: I’ve also called about getting blood work done. I just have to find a day that I can take off work due to the hours of the lab. I will get that done before anything!

 

[Smont]

Ah, gotcha! I didn’t realize sides would be noticeable so quickly. I guess I also assumed a longer cycle would = more suppression, and therefore, a more miserable PCT. Much of my concern had to do with side effects and not wanting to have a brutal PCT that I sometimes hear about with depression and all that.

Thank you for your help!

Edit: I’ve also called about getting blood work done. I just have to find a day that I can take off work due to the hours of the lab. I will get that done before anything!

Typically speaking yes, longer cycle will mean more suppression. But it also takes time to build muscle. Suppression is part of the game, if you don't want suppression don't you suppressive hormones. They just go together. For years people have been trying to reinvent the wheel and looking for ways to have your cake and eat it too but it never pans out.

But if you really wanna use things like these then you should make it worth your while.

A lot of ppl buy 1 bottle of a prohormone or whatever and use it just for the sake of "I wanted to try it" or a pipe dream that it's going to be a game changer. It's like if you were on a diet, and you wanted pizza so you ordered a slice just so you could take 1 bite. But your not gonna have more then 1 bite because the pizza will make you fat. The more you eat the fatter you get. But hey at least you got to see what that slice of pizza tasted like lol.

Side effects, you probably won't get any at all. What I was getting at is with most hormones you will know in a few weeks weather or not you handle them well.

I personally don't handle 19nors, things like deca, npp, dienolone, tren. I get prolactin gyno sides from them. If I was to take a 1ml shot of any 19nor with no prolactin "support" things like caber or prami and raloxefine, but after a week or 2 my nipples start hurting and Im screwed, even with the proper chemistry on hand to combat it I still would be pulling the plug within about a month.

So what I'm getting at is if something is going to go wrong it'll typically happen pretty early on.

 

[NegativeMass]

I'm 4.5 weeks into a run of androsterone (250mg TD/day) and epiandro (300mg TD + 700mg oral/day). Going to get bloodwork hopefully in a week or so. Just curious to see how it's effecting me. I'll post my labs in a thread once I get them. Hoping to get DHT tested as well.

 

[Smont]

I'm 4.5 weeks into a run of androsterone (250mg TD/day) and epiandro (300mg TD + 700mg oral/day). Going to get bloodwork hopefully in a week or so. Just curious to see how it's effecting me. I'll post my labs in a thread once I get them. Hoping to get DHT tested as well.

I love high doses of epiandro. Once I get up to or over that 900mg mark it's a lot like Winny for me. Just a lot more expensive lol, but also with only a fraction of the health risks.

 

[NegativeMass]

I love high doses of epiandro. Once I get up to or over that 900mg mark it's a lot like Winny for me. Just a lot more expensive lol, but also with only a fraction of the health risks.

I REALLY enjoy this run so far. My body is PED naive besides mk 677 and 11-keto. These are "mild" but for me the effects are really a step up from natural. I love stimulants and epi has great feel good drive. The androsterone balances it out nicely. They're expensive compared to AAS, but I'm on the slow boat with PED's, starting mild, getting bloods, and being as health safe as possible. I really want to find out the mildest compounds I can use to reach my goals.

 

[KvanH]

I love high doses of epiandro. Once I get up to or over that 900mg mark it's a lot like Winny for me. Just a lot more expensive lol, but also with only a fraction of the health risks.

Have you tried TD Epiandro? I like to apply TD in the morning and oral preWO. Get the best of both administration options.

 

[Smont]

Have you tried TD Epiandro? I like to apply TD in the morning and oral preWO. Get the best of both administration options.

Yes, only the apex TD. I never used the TD specifically your a cycle in the higher doses like I mentioned. I used it alongside trt at 150mg per day and a extra 150mg pre workout. Another time I did 300 straight through. Anytime I ever mega dosed epiandro at 900 and I believe I went up to 1200 it was all oral, I tried doing half the serving in the morning and half pre-workout, I tried doing it evenly spaced throughout the day and then I finally decided on just one massive dose pre-workout. To this day I'm pretty much pre-workout only with orals. If it's a rest day I'll take it first thing in the morning and if it's a training day I'll take the entire dose pre-workout. In my opinion splitting the doses up throughout the day did not make much if any of a difference and it just kind of got to a point where I would forget to take doses. At the absolute maximum I'll split the dose morning and night now

 

[thebigt]

hello! looking for some advice.. im going to run androhard gel. im going to run a low/medium dosage for 4 weeks. what will i need after im off it? i have testrozone gel from the same company i was given to and said it this is my pct.. will this be good enough? i heard sustain ALPHA is a good product to run after. would sustain alpha be good enough after im done with androhard? do i really need to run a serm? thanks.
[/QUOT

Have you tried TD Epiandro? I like to apply TD in the morning and oral preWO. Get the best of both administration options.

just putting this out there...iconic is having a 30% off president day sale...time to get some ultra epi 450mg per serving for $42

 

[Smont]

just putting this out there...iconic is having a 30% off president day sale...time to get some ultra epi 450mg per serving for $42

Ultraepi is a TD epiandro @450mg per serving???

 

[KvanH]

Ultraepi is a TD epiandro @450mg per serving???

450 mg with 5 pumps. 140 pumps per bottle.

 

[Smont]

450 mg with 5 pumps. 140 pumps a bottle.

That's a pretty damn good deal, with the enhanced bioavailability from transdermal versus oral you're getting like three times your money's worth compared to most other oral products.

 

[thebigt]

That's a pretty damn good deal, with the enhanced bioavailability from transdermal versus oral you're getting like three times your money's worth compared to most other oral products.

exactly--hard to find a oral dosed even close to this transdermal dose---i've been trying to get the word out--this is the best bang for the buck epiandro product, by far, imo.

 

[cheftepesh1]

That's a pretty damn good deal, with the enhanced bioavailability from transdermal versus oral you're getting like three times your money's worth compared to most other oral products.

This is why I wish I knew about transdermals back when I was running stronger cycles.

 

[bill86]

Typically speaking yes, longer cycle will mean more suppression. But it also takes time to build muscle. Suppression is part of the game, if you don't want suppression don't you suppressive hormones. They just go together. For years people have been trying to reinvent the wheel and looking for ways to have your cake and eat it too but it never pans out.

But if you really wanna use things like these then you should make it worth your while.

A lot of ppl buy 1 bottle of a prohormone or whatever and use it just for the sake of "I wanted to try it" or a pipe dream that it's going to be a game changer. It's like if you were on a diet, and you wanted pizza so you ordered a slice just so you could take 1 bite. But your not gonna have more then 1 bite because the pizza will make you fat. The more you eat the fatter you get. But hey at least you got to see what that slice of pizza tasted like lol.

Side effects, you probably won't get any at all. What I was getting at is with most hormones you will know in a few weeks weather or not you handle them well.

I personally don't handle 19nors, things like deca, npp, dienolone, tren. I get prolactin gyno sides from them. If I was to take a 1ml shot of any 19nor with no prolactin "support" things like caber or prami and raloxefine, but after a week or 2 my nipples start hurting and Im screwed, even with the proper chemistry on hand to combat it I still would be pulling the plug within about a month.

So what I'm getting at is if something is going to go wrong it'll typically happen pretty early on.

This may be a bit off of my original topic, but in line with the “testing the waters” stuff… I was initially interested in seeing what a TRT clinic could do for me. I spoke with a rep at the gym at length. However, that’s on the other end of the spectrum in terms of commitment. I do know for sure that my total test is rather low, but I need more expensive testing for a clearer picture.

Is there anything else that you would recommend in terms of an introduction to anabolics that would be a good starting point without committing to a life-long decision?

Rather than the transdermal route, would it be worthwhile to simply consider a more standard test (maybe test cyp) cycle? My hesitancy, again with respect to sides, is that I would likely need an AI due to being gyno-prone (I have pretty nasty gyno from puberty that only looks worse the leaner I get). Also, I feel like I would personally like to incorporate HCG, at least towards the end of the cycle, based on what I’ve read and what the steroid-veterans at my gym have told me. This, too, could come with potential sides.

I certainly relate to your comment about wanting my cake and eating it too, but I just want to be as cautious as possible getting into this. On one hand, TRT would be great due it being monitored. On the other hand, it’s a very big commitment.

I realize that you can’t make up my mind for me, but I guess I’m wondering if you think that transdermal route would even be worth it based on my goals, or if I should just run test with the necessary ancillaries? Again, just trying to get into the realm of anabolics without making it a lifelong decision or over (or under) doing it.

Thanks!

 

[thebigt]

This is why I wish I knew about transdermals back when I was running stronger cycles.

my introduction to transdermals was E-FORM...it was instant love

 

[Smont]

This may be a bit off of my original topic, but in line with the “testing the waters” stuff… I was initially interested in seeing what a TRT clinic could do for me. I spoke with a rep at the gym at length. However, that’s on the other end of the spectrum in terms of commitment. I do know for sure that my total test is rather low, but I need more expensive testing for a clearer picture.

Is there anything else that you would recommend in terms of an introduction to anabolics that would be a good starting point without committing to a life-long decision?

Rather than the transdermal route, would it be worthwhile to simply consider a more standard test (maybe test cyp) cycle? My hesitancy, again with respect to sides, is that I would likely need an AI due to being gyno-prone (I have pretty nasty gyno from puberty that only looks worse the leaner I get). Also, I feel like I would personally like to incorporate HCG, at least towards the end of the cycle, based on what I’ve read and what the steroid-veterans at my gym have told me. This, too, could come with potential sides.

I certainly relate to your comment about wanting my cake and eating it too, but I just want to be as cautious as possible getting into this. On one hand, TRT would be great due it being monitored. On the other hand, it’s a very big commitment.

I realize that you can’t make up my mind for me, but I guess I’m wondering if you think that transdermal route would even be worth it based on my goals, or if I should just run test with the necessary ancillaries? Again, just trying to get into the realm of anabolics without making it a lifelong decision or over (or under) doing it.

Thanks!

I would tell anyone pick testosterone over anything else. And then add to your testosterone. As far as trt goes. I do not believe real trt is going to be Anything to write home about for building muscle. Being at the top of the natty range is not really any different then being low or mid range, I mean it is, but not game changing. The Andros (dosed appropriately) and sarms (dosed appropriately)are going to be stronger then real trt doses.

But, in a cutting scenario, when calories and bodyfat are really low, I think trt is way better then being Natty.

If you want to build muscle use testosterone and other anabolics. If you wanna be on trt then just be on trt. (Which makes absolutely no sense unless you need it)

 

[bill86]

I would tell anyone pick testosterone over anything else. And then add to your testosterone. As far as trt goes. I do not believe real trt is going to be Anything to write home about for building muscle. Being at the top of the natty range is not really any different then being low or mid range, I mean it is, but not game changing. The Andros (dosed appropriately) and sarms (dosed appropriately)are going to be stronger then real trt doses.

But, in a cutting scenario, when calories and bodyfat are really low, I think trt is way better then being Natty.

If you want to build muscle use testosterone and other anabolics. If you wanna be on trt then just be on trt. (Which makes absolutely no sense unless you need it)

Gotcha. Yeah, my total T was 431 about 5 years ago at age 30. I’m planning on doing more comprehensive bloodwork soon. My GP wouldn’t test for anything other than Total and then said there’s nothing he can do because I’m in the “normal range”.

hopefully I can get this blood work as soon as my work schedule permits.

 

[Smont]

Gotcha. Yeah, my total T was 431 about 5 years ago at age 30. I’m planning on doing more comprehensive bloodwork soon. My GP wouldn’t test for anything other than Total and then said there’s nothing he can do because I’m in the “normal range”.

hopefully I can get this blood work as soon as my work schedule permits.

Ya, your gp knows nothing about how hormones work and has to go by what he was told in med school during the 7min class on testosterone.

You really need to know free t, estrogen, lh/fsh and a few other things to understand what is going on.

Also, a good doc would say, 35 years old and testosterone is on the low side of normal, maybe we can get those numbers up naturally and if not maybe we consider replacement therapy.