Self medicating with a SERM

[Shiznown]

Alright guys, here's the scoop. I haven't gotten my T levels checked in over a year because I have been dealing with really bad sinus issues for a year and a half, so I know my T levels are probably that of a middle age woman right now. Anyway, I am getting my sinus issues fixed soon, hopefully and I am also no longer taking a proton pump inhibitor that I was on for 6 years for GERD. I figure breathing better, loosing weight and not taking that pill for GERD since my GERD surgery will help boost my T levels, BUT I want a backup plan. The highest my test has measured is 474 and the highest my Free T has measured is 98.3. I am going to get blood work done in a few months and if my T levels aren't at least in the mid 600 range, I am thinking of taking a SERM. I cannot afford an anti-aging clinic. I am still in college. Hell, I don't even own a car yet. I am 29 and not getting any younger. I think my T has always been on the low side. I naturally seem to be weaker than most of my friends unless I constantly workout. If I stop, they all seem stronger and they don't even lift. It's sort of always been that way. Anyway, I was thinking of using Clomid at 13mg...easier to dose than 12.5mg with RC Clomid, or maybe even toremifene. I don't know anything about toremifene though, except that it is supposed to have less side effects.

 

[Swindler]

I am confused on why you want to use a serm?

 

[Shiznown]

I am confused on why you want to use a serm?

To boost test to optimal normal, provided if I cannot boost them naturally as sort of a backup plan. I've tried test boosters and they don't do anything for the most part and the ones that do work raise my BP super high.

 

[Sambo123]

Try blr rebirth as a natural serm.
Really effective.

 

[Swindler]

To boost test to optimal normal, provided if I cannot boost them naturally as sort of a backup plan. I've tried test boosters and they don't do anything for the most part and the ones that do work raise my BP super high.

Do you have blood pressure issues I mean things like this have to be takin into consideration.....

 

[Shiznown]

Try blr rebirth as a natural serm.
Really effective.

Tried it, gave me a huge headache and heart burn.

 

[Shiznown]

Do you have blood pressure issues I mean things like this have to be takin into consideration.....

Before my sinus issues, my BP was 120/80(with high anxiety taking ashwaghanda and that is helping a lot). Since I've had sinus issues, it's about 138/87. I have enlarged turbinates.

 

[Swindler]

Sounds like a headache waiting to happen to me or migraine

 

[Shiznown]

Sounds like a headache waiting to happen to me or migraine

Which is why I'm not touching SERMS until this **** gets cleared. I'm not even going to do my ostarine cycle until I can breath. Anyway, do you think low dose SERM use would be okay, if my T still comes back low? Provided I have my BP back to normal, or slightly lower than before considering I have lost weight.

 

[Swindler]

I think I serm might be ok... but trt or test will push you over the top

 

[Swindler]

Just my assumption cause I have had some BP problems on trt but not serm

 

[bigdavid]

By chance have you had a sleep study? Sleep apnea will kill T levels. Will also elevated blood pressure. Among other health effects.

 

[Shiznown]

I think I serm might be ok... but trt or test will push you over the top

Yeah, I meant using a SERM if needed until I can afford TRT, which most likely won't be for about 2-3 years given that the college program I want to go in last almost two years and I might not be able to start int until next year, given that it starts soon and I need another surgery.

 

[Swindler]

But honestly I would just wait till everything is good why push it

 

[Shiznown]

By chance have you had a sleep study? Sleep apnea will kill T levels

Yeah and that's another thing I forgot to mention. I have mild apnea, but I actually think my turbinates contribute to that because ever since I've had apnea, the blockage feels like it comes from my nose. I use a mouth guard thing to keep my mouth open so I breath though my mouth at night. It works if I'm 225 or below. Last time I had blood work done though, I was about 235. I think once this next surgery is done, I won't have apnea anymore, or at the very least breath 100% optimal with the mouth guard. That is why I'm getting everything tested before jumping on a SERM. I was just considering it, because when I tested one time I was breathing great at night, but my Test was actually the lowest at that point ironically in the 300 range. Free test has been 98 point something throughout all three tests.

 

[Shiznown]

But honestly I would just wait till everything is good why push it

Oh I am dude, just keeping a SERM as an option.

 

[Swindler]

I would just do sarms personally

 

[Cycloman]

Alright guys, here's the scoop. I haven't gotten my T levels checked in over a year because I have been dealing with really bad sinus issues for a year and a half, so I know my T levels are probably that of a middle age woman right now. Anyway, I am getting my sinus issues fixed soon, hopefully and I am also no longer taking a proton pump inhibitor that I was on for 6 years for GERD. I figure breathing better, loosing weight and not taking that pill for GERD since my GERD surgery will help boost my T levels, BUT I want a backup plan. The highest my test has measured is 474 and the highest my Free T has measured is 98.3. I am going to get blood work done in a few months and if my T levels aren't at least in the mid 600 range, I am thinking of taking a SERM. I cannot afford an anti-aging clinic. I am still in college. Hell, I don't even own a car yet. I am 29 and not getting any younger. I think my T has always been on the low side. I naturally seem to be weaker than most of my friends unless I constantly workout. If I stop, they all seem stronger and they don't even lift. It's sort of always been that way. Anyway, I was thinking of using Clomid at 13mg...easier to dose than 12.5mg with RC Clomid, or maybe even toremifene. I don't know anything about toremifene though, except that it is supposed to have less side effects.

You could try that but at your age the lower than expected Testosterone level could be caused by a lot of things - low Vitamin D, low Thyroid, over training or stress. I haven't seen guys use Serms and then keep the higher levels too long. It's temporary and your body goes back to normal levels. Get more comprehensive bloods done to assess Thyroid and supplement with some D3 before jumping on a Serm.

 

[bigdavid]

You could try that but at your age the lower than expected Testosterone level could be caused by a lot of things - low Vitamin D, low Thyroid, over training or stress. I haven't seen guys use Serms and then keep the higher levels too long. It's temporary and your body goes back to normal levels. Get more comprehensive bloods done to assess Thyroid and supplement with some D3 before jumping on a Serm.

I agree with you and this is shown even further with somewhat newer studies showing DAA may lower testosterone long term since the body compensated for the changes that boost testosterone in the first few weeks. Obviously this is a different compound and MOA from serms, but the principle still shows the point.

Another thing to consider though, is that these drugs may have more long term test boosting for those with low or borderline low total test levels as a baseline.

 

[Shiznown]

You could try that but at your age the lower than expected Testosterone level could be caused by a lot of things - low Vitamin D, low Thyroid, over training or stress. I haven't seen guys use Serms and then keep the higher levels too long. It's temporary and your body goes back to normal levels. Get more comprehensive bloods done to assess Thyroid and supplement with some D3 before jumping on a Serm.

I already take vitamin d, a multi with iodine, zinc citrate, magnesium citrate and KSM-66 Ashwaghanda. TSH stays at 1.11. Never had T3 or T4 taken because my doc insists that TSH is enough for thyroid, but she has given me labs for everything else except IGF-1. She's even given me labs for DHT.

 

[Shiznown]

I agree with you and this is shown even further with somewhat newer studies showing DAA may lower testosterone long term since the body compensated for the changes that boost testosterone in the first few weeks. Obviously this is a different compound and MOA from serms, but the principle still shows the point.

Another thing to consider though, is that these drugs may have more long term test boosting for those with low or borderline low total test levels as a baseline.

Lets hope so. If not I'm screwed if I can't get test up naturally. I cannot afford $200 a month for TRT and that's IF I can find a program that cheap. So $30 for four months of Clomid taken at low dose, vs $200 a month for TRT.

 

[Shiznown]

I would just do sarms personally

SARMs have to be cycled though.

 

[CatSnake]

I think there's a decent amount of people that use SERMs to increase their T production. I think if you iron out the other health stuff, it might not be necessary, though.

however, if it doesn't come up, then it's a relatively simple (and inexpensive) option.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html

^personally, I've used 25 mg/day of clomid to double my T levels. it starts to drop when I come off, though...

 

[Shiznown]

I think there's a decent amount of people that use SERMs to increase their T production. I think if you iron out the other health stuff, it might not be necessary, though.

however, if it doesn't come up, then it's a relatively simple (and inexpensive) option.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html

^personally, I've used 25 mg/day of clomid to double my T levels. it starts to drop when I come off, though...

Thanks bud! I just saw the doc and she wants me to try singulair and if that doesn't work. In a month she's going to do a procedure to shrink my turbinates.

 

[trtdoc]

We are $30 a week. I would leave t supplementation to the professionals tbh

Dr B

 

[Shiznown]

We are $30 a week. I would leave t supplementation to the professionals tbh

Dr B

We who?

 

[kenpoengineer]

We who?

Entourage Hormones. I've started a thread detailing my TRT switch from my current doctor to Entourage. So far so good.

 

[Shiznown]

Entourage Hormones. I've started a thread detailing my TRT switch from my current doctor to Entourage. So far so good.

So $120 a month huh? is that nation wide, or what?

 

[kenpoengineer]

So $120 a month huh? is that nation wide, or what?

$114 to be exact. Yes, nationwide.

 

[Swindler]

The local spot here is $100 initial blood work then $50 a week.

 

[kenpoengineer]

The local spot here is $100 initial blood work then $50 a week.

The Entourage Hormones $114 doesn't include bloodwork but syringes, HCG, Anastrozole and testosterone cypionate is all included

 

[Swindler]

The Entourage Hormones $114 doesn't include bloodwork but syringes, HCG, Anastrozole and testosterone cypionate is all included

Sounds like a pretty good deal

 

[Shiznown]

The Entourage Hormones $114 doesn't include bloodwork but syringes, HCG, Anastrozole and testosterone cypionate is all included

How much is the blood work and how often? I can get blood for free from my primary, but I know most services want you to pay anyway.

 

[kenpoengineer]

How much is the blood work and how often? I can get blood for free from my primary, but I know most services want you to pay anyway.

$30 for bloodwork (E2, TT and FT). Just started the first month with them. Yes, they accepted bloodwork from my primary.

 

[Shiznown]

$30 for bloodwork (E2, TT and FT). Just started the first month with them. Yes, they accepted bloodwork from my primary.

Damn, well thanks!

 

[Slims]

I think there's a decent amount of people that use SERMs to increase their T production.

personally, I've used 25 mg/day of clomid to double my T levels. it starts to drop when I come off, though...

I'm considering running Clomid 25mg ED to help raise my naturally low testosterone because the doctors refuse to do so.

How long did you run Clomid for?
What were your most notable benefits?

 

[CatSnake]

I'm considering running Clomid 25mg ED to help raise my naturally low testosterone because the doctors refuse to do so.

How long did you run Clomid for?
What were your most notable benefits?

to be honest, it wasn't really a big difference, as far as perceived benefits. but, I did go from around 300 to 700's in 6 weeks or so. I think long-term, fat loss and muscle gain would be more pronounced..... my issue, was that I kept coming off clomid, in the hopes that my T levels would stay up, but they don't seem to anymore. I'm planning on staying on for a longer period of time right now, instead of a couple months at a time like I was doing before.

still, it's pretty inexpensive and has minimal side effects, so I don't mind managing that on my own...

 

[bigdavid]

to be honest, it wasn't really a big difference, as far as perceived benefits. but, I did go from around 300 to 700's in 6 weeks or so. I think long-term, fat loss and muscle gain would be more pronounced..... my issue, was that I kept coming off clomid, in the hopes that my T levels would stay up, but they don't seem to anymore. I'm planning on staying on for a longer period of time right now, instead of a couple months at a time like I was doing before.

still, it's pretty inexpensive and has minimal side effects, so I don't mind managing that on my own...

Just out of curiosity, what made you think that it would stay elevated once you stopped? Was that just wishful thinking or is there something else you thought it might help with? It’s obvious that you know the mechanism of action so I would think you knew your levels would drop upon cessation?

 

[trtdoc]

Clomid monotherapy is not extremely beneficial IMO. It is a great compound, however when used in conjunction and for specialized purposes.

Btw- we accept all labs, going through primary is great if it is covered otherwise we offer very high discounted rates for our patients

Dr. B

EntourageHormones.com

 

[CatSnake]

Just out of curiosity, what made you think that it would stay elevated once you stopped? Was that just wishful thinking or is there something else you thought it might help with? It’s obvious that you know the mechanism of action so I would think you knew your levels would drop upon cessation?

yeah, really I was just hoping that once I got things working again it would stay good. I was recovering from a long layoff, injury, fat gain, etc, so I assumed once I got active again and lost some weight that would help as well.

I've since been dieting pretty aggressively, so I don't think that helped my T levels, but I also thought that the 25lbs or so I've lost would've helped keep my T levels up, too.

 

[bigdavid]

yeah, really I was just hoping that once I got things working again it would stay good. I was recovering from a long layoff, injury, fat gain, etc, so I assumed once I got active again and lost some weight that would help as well.

I've since been dieting pretty aggressively, so I don't think that helped my T levels, but I also thought that the 25lbs or so I've lost would've helped keep my T levels up, too.

Yeah, I had a feeling that was what was going on. Thought maybe the serm could normalize you like after a cycle or something, expect you assumed lowered levels were from lifestyle or other factors...but same concept.

One thing though, when you lost all that weight, did you keep your dietary fat intake at a healthy level? I know some guys that only eat ~ 20-30 grams fat per day and that will tank your test levels over time.

 

[Slims]

If i do start a 25mg ED Clomid run, how long could I stay on it, assuming it actually does increase my testosterone and improve my quality of life?

 

[CatSnake]

If i do start a 25mg ED Clomid run, how long could I stay on it, assuming it actually does increase my testosterone and improve my quality of life?

I've seen studies where healthy men are on it for several years..... but I would consult a doc about the safety of long-term use, tho.

 

[CatSnake]

Yeah, I had a feeling that was what was going on. Thought maybe the serm could normalize you like after a cycle or something, expect you assumed lowered levels were from lifestyle or other factors...but same concept.

One thing though, when you lost all that weight, did you keep your dietary fat intake at a healthy level? I know some guys that only eat ~ 20-30 grams fat per day and that will tank your test levels over time.

yeah, plenty of healthy fats, eggs, fish oil, etc.

I got my vitamin D numbers up, too, as that was low (it's good now). I also take ZMA at night.

 

[Slims]

I've seen studies where healthy men are on it for several years..... but I would consult a doc about the safety of long-term use, tho.

I've been seeing doctors and specialists now for the past two, nearly three, years and all they've done it take biopsies, blood + various other samples and just continued to fob me off. I've asked about all routes of TRT and they've just said "Let's just wait to see if it'll improve on it's own"
Clomid has been proven to work and seems like the most tried, tested and true compound to increase natural testosterone levels.

 

[ucheoma]

Clomid monotherapy is not extremely beneficial IMO. It is a great compound, however when used in conjunction and for specialized purposes.

Btw- we accept all labs, going through primary is great if it is covered otherwise we offer very high discounted rates for our patients

Dr. B

EntourageHormones.com

Why do you think Clomid monotheraphy is not beneficial?

 

[bigdavid]

Why do you think Clomid monotheraphy is not beneficial?

I am not him, but I’d say if you have blood work showing clomid mono-therapy increases your test levels to a level you are happy with/feel good on, and any side effects are mild or absent, why would you want to get injections every week and have to deal with possible fertility issues (and if you take hcg to counteract that, then that’s one more injection you need to do subq every few days), and any other possible long term problems?

I am not saying that TRT is inherently unsafe, but compared to clomid once daily it seems to be an easy weighing of risk-reward.

In my mind, clomid should be tried first. However, I would surmise that the majority of patients with hypogonadism that physicians see do not respond adequately to clomid, especially long term if they have been dealing with the issue for decades... but if clomid does work for you/a particular patient, that is a better option than the alternative.