K (Phoenix)
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ah sigh
Not like it matters anymore.
Not like it matters anymore.
1fast wouldn't be too far behind neither
Just read that. Incredible. "I never said it is safe for teens to use ph/ps/steroid. I only say there is no risk for teens to use them." "Show me where I said it was safe for teens to use them? "OOOOKAAAAY " What a way to cover your ass!!!!Originally posted by Blacksmith
yeah,
I just got into it with Par's attack Chihuahua
over on the BB.com site.
They're still trying to defend PH cycles for teens.
Nice way to add fuel to the fire.
Regardless, the point is (and he knows it) is he wouldnt hesitate to sell his product to a teen. Knowingly sell his product to a teen.
Just read that. Incredible. "I never said it is safe for teens to use ph/ps/steroid. I only say there is no risk for teens to use them." "Show me where I said it was safe for teens to use them? "OOOOKAAAAY " What a way to cover your ass!!!!
I know I was the biggest jerk when it comes to name-calling. But I reformed and I thought the new rules prohibit that now, anyway.
Originally posted by SirSavageX
And on the subject of older teens (18+), there is NO evidence that it is any worse for them than someone 21+. Show me one, just one, 18-year old individual, with severe, irreversible side-effects from responsible prohormone use. Go ahead.
Plus, they inspired the entire 1-test/4-AD homebrew movement. This place would not exist had it not been for Avant.
If ya'll want to pick on a company, pick on a company that deserves it.
Everything is a matter of evidence. If I told you I had a brew that was twice as good as BDC's, would you believe me because I said so, or would you want to see something to back it up??
It is not a matter of evidence is a matter of common sense, and for the second point if Avant doing the inspiring, if not them, would have been someone else. I do respect the man, but he is not a God.
Understood.Well Im not the PH expert......
This part we can really see for ourselves.but a BDC homebrew contains more 1-test powder
Good, this is what I'm talking about. The science behind it. BDC's has DMSO, and it provides better absorbtion because "blah blah blah". See, someone needs to write a nice, professional piece, with references, to show how good BDC's, or whoever's, brew is. Otherwise, as I said, claims cannot be made, because no evidence has been provided.and DMSO for added absorbtion
Reason enough to exercise common sense, Not everthing is a matter of evidence, There is not evidence that God exist, however, people believe in him, Perhaps that can be assume for Par as well!Originally posted by SirSavageX
Everything is a matter of evidence. If I told you I had a brew that was twice as good as BDC's, would you believe me because I said so, or would you want to see something to back it up??
I'm sure someone else would have inspired the homebrew movement if Par hadn't, but that didn't happen. He inspired it.
No he's not a god, and his "Supplement God" image is largely satirical.
That was an extreme example, but still, if a claim is made no matter what it is, evidence is needed to back it up. THAT is common sense.
Reason enough to exercise common sense, Not everthing is a matter of evidence, There is not evidence that God exist, however, people believe in him, Perhaps that can be assume for Par as well!
Oh God, where have I heard that before
Everything in science is a matter of evidence, and this is a matter of science.
Understood. When I first posted, I said the 1-Test/4-AD homebrew movement. That's what I meant, not the ORIGINAL homebrew movement. Sorry 'bout that.Sorry bro. The Fina boards were doing homebrew back then using formulae that are totally different from Avantlabs. Remember Avantlabs never disclose their formular. So you wouldn't have the % to copy squat. We did the work ourselves. 60% Iso, 30% IPM, 10% OA. The original Kentuckey Fried Chicken recipe .
Gotcha'. However, since there is no injectable 1-Test to compare to One or One+, Par wrote an article to explain why he felt his had such a high absorption. That's the issue: because there is no injectable to compare to, Par wrote an article explaining why he feels his is the best; homebrewers have not done this for 1-Test. There has not been a strong, central piece that brings all of the evidence together for a homebrew formula.
Thousands of fina users have gotten result very close to injection if they use 4-5X the amount of injection. So we can conclude that it is about 20-25% absorption rate. Yeah I am sure thousands of Fina users cycle results are no match for something written by Par.
And not one homemade users have gotten bad result.
Why do we claim it is as good as Avant's? Same dosage. Same result. Everyone who uses it, gets the same effect. It gets so fvcking tiresome hearing the same ol BS about no proof. It is just proof that not to their liking.
Really? Do you have a link? Perhaps feedback, in addition to his research, led him to believe it had a much higher absorption that he originally thought. A reduction in the recommended dose wouldn't necessarily be needed, as long as the product was decently priced, giving good results, and within reasonable safety guidelines. If you're getting good results with dose "x", keep taking it, you don't have to cut it down to "1/2x" or whatever just because your original estimation seemed to be a little off.
Btw, when Par originally thought his mix was lucky to get 20% , he recommended a dosage. Now that he claims 40%, how come he is still recommending the same dosage? You would think logic would require a reduction of dosage used.
Ah, but you cannot deny it.
Oh God, where have I heard that before
He has financial motive to invest the time and effort to write long winded crap on it. We examined the cycle results from so many fina users (btw, they used a less effective formulation that has no OA) and are convinced of the efficiency. When people used the recipe with 1-test instead of Fina, they get about the same result as those reported by Avant users. Are we suppose to say "oh fvck that! "?Originally posted by SirSavageX
Gotcha'. However, since there is no injectable 1-Test to compare to One or One+, Par wrote an article to explain why he felt his had such a high absorption. That's the issue: because there is no injectable to compare to, Par wrote an article explaining why he feels his is the best; homebrewers have not done this for 1-Test. There has not been a strong, central piece that brings all of the evidence together for a homebrew formula.
see above. There are lots of people who are perfectly satisfied with homebrew. People have no incentive to spend the time and effort to document this ****. We don't do it for money.Understood. I have not seen this myself, but then again, I have not looked very hard. It would be nice to have a collection of feedback, in addition to a nice, professional article, no?
What do you mean? Back when I posted the question about Biotest's crooks making false claim about their Androsol getting 40%, Par posted that he would be lucky that his got 20+% . The post should be there at BB.com. You can search for it. His comment on DMSO increasing the effectiveness is also in post over there.Really? Do you have a link? Perhaps feedback, in addition to his research, led him to believe it had a much higher absorption that he originally thought. A reduction in the recommended dose wouldn't necessarily be needed, as long as the product was decently priced, giving good results, and within reasonable safety guidelines. If you're getting good results with dose "x", keep taking it, you don't have to cut it down to "1/2x" or whatever just because your original estimation seemed to be a little off.
where can you find this one + ?
bro, go to http://www.bdcnutrition.com/forum/index.php?s=
BDC or Big Daddy Chemo has put together a killer transdermal mix
T-4 (12g 1-Test & 4-AD).
He asked where to find ONE+, not where do I find an inferior knockoff.
Inferior? Come on Par...play nice. With DMSO the absorption will more than match that of One, One+, SuperOne+, or SuperDuperOne+. I am offering a good product at HALF your price...don't be mad.
Chemo
As long as we are using drawing conclusions from an n=1 sample size, Mike (1fast400) had an instore customer gain 40 lbs in 4 weeks on either super ONE or ONE+
I know BDC's work, and I even said the homebrews were better values, when they were still homebrews.
The problem I have, is the claims that are made, without them being backed up.
Maybe there is a bunch of feedback from users on the various boards, now, but there absolutely was not when the claims first started being made. And, there still is not a body of feedback from a consistent formula coming close to rivaling what we have.
BDC has even claimed DOUBLE absorption of ours -- though, as is the usual, he runs his mouth the most on boards I do not generally frequent -- that seems to be very popular with the BDC crowd.
He still has done nothing to show he even really understands the subject -- I have given opportunities, but he avoids the question. And, I have seen a ton of stuff from him, and especially the other one, indicating cluelessness.
Okay, let's try this again, for the really, really, really, really, really slow:
BDC, assuming he pays for his materials, what I would pay for the same materials (or at least close), makes FAR more money, per unit sold, than I do (meaning ME, Caleb, Par Deus, Avant Labs, etc. -- is that clear enough that we are indeed talking about me???), on average.
99% of my sales, on non-betas, are wholesale/distribution.
IOW, unless he is really, really inefficient with production, his profit margins are LARGER than my so-called "HUGE" profit margins.
Clear??
But, how many sheep will quickly forget this and move to the next red herring, and how many will damn the hippocracy of the money grubbing BDC Nation???
LOL...left nut or right nut...
Compare and contrast the expected partition coefficient between my formula and your own.
Yeh I always though it was funny when he raised the absorption rate on his when the homebrew came out...Originally posted by jweave23
It's really late so I will edit this post later, but I can say I remember reading the threads at BB.com where this was discussed. Par originally stated around 20% or so, then when asked about homebrew he upped that magic number to 40, although he admitted he had no scientific basis when confronted.
Doesn't anyone else remember these threads that K has been talking about? The whole homebrew thing was washed away so damn quickly that it didn't get to linger that long I guess. I'll look up some tomorrow and see if I can get links, although some aren't there anymore.
1fast the reason i think BDC does not answer Par is that all Par does is cut BDC down and turns things personal.
You mean copyHe just can;t fathom that someone was smart enough to make something that rivals his product.
1fast if you are trying to egg Chemo on then please just leave. If you have inteligent answers or intelligent questions then stick around
When the law suit hits you'll be up to your eyeballs in cases.
And on the subject of older teens (18+), there is NO evidence that it is any worse for them than someone 21+. Show me one, just one, 18-year old individual, with severe, irreversible side-effects from responsible prohormone use. Go ahead.
Actually, you have no idea why I'm not pursueing it until Par makes the final move and publish his own formula.Originally posted by 1Fast400
You guys have used the argument that Par does not want to debate delivery with Chemo. When he is presented the chance he runs. He could post his answer here, on his own forum, and he does not.
Am I trying to egg him on, you bet. I want him to debate Par on transdermal delivery. There is not a link you can post which shows them debating it yet and I'm sure we all know why.
Glad to be hear,Hey Blacksmith. Nice to see another knowledgable guy come over to the "dark side" hehehe. Talk to ya..
Mike, you've had a bug up your ass towards me and anyone that is interested in effective products that are reasonably priced. Why is that?
This personal stuff has nothing to do with the topic. You should take it to PM in regards to this stuff. I tell you what, I will delete the post and send it to Chemo for you in a PM.
Back when I posted the question about Biotest's crooks making false claim about their Androsol getting 40%, Par posted that he would be lucky that his got 20+% .
Link to the thread: Big Cat-Andro and NorAndro sprayBiotest is full of ****, unless they apllied it and did not let the person bath for a week, then it might be possible. You just do not get that king of efficiency with real world usage of transdermals. I would be extremely pleased to find out that ours achieved 25%.
DMSO got 20% (or maybe 25% -- can't remember) delivery over 24 hours with testosterone. I have seen that 80% figure before -- don't know where it originates, but it is not based on any data existing in the literature.
I would expect Phlogel to be decent, based on the existing data with phospholipids as penetration enhancers, but probably nothing special.
His comment on DMSO increasing the effectiveness is also in post over there.
Link to the thread: a crazy question, ONE and DMSOBecause DMSO works by disordering the stratum corneum and androgens cross the stratum corneum rather easily (it is not the rate limiting step), it will not do THAT much, but it is a damn good PE, so I would think it still might increase it by maybe 20% or so (and I do not mean add 20% to the % total -- in other words it might go from 30-40% to 36-48%).
But, again, this is totally just a wild ass estimate. I have seen no direct data that relates to this.
Mike, get over yourself. You gave me contact info to 3 distributors of which I do not buy from any of them. I get my powders from China or PA...and you did not give me contact info to any of them. I built this of my own time and research NOT from the distributor list that you gave me. As a side note, I'm not buying from the distributors you gave me but will be SELLING to one of them directly. Maybe you can buy my products when Europa offers them...Originally posted by 1Fast400
You know why I have issues with you. It mainly deals with the fact that you lied to me way back when. I had nothing but good intentions for you. I gave you my phone number and time to call me to help you set up a store. All you talked about was how you were not going to set up an online shop, blah blah blah. Then 3 weeks later this website starts up. I gave you all those contacts and everything. If you would have TOLD me you were going to do this, I still would have given you the information. After you start up your little business you talk about how it is not for profit, oh please. You don't start a business for charity. You didn't buy your stuff from the patent holder, which really pissed me off. All you talked about is how you were this upstanding business guy and ethics this and ethics that, then you go and intentionally violate that law. If you never would have made the comments about it (ethics) it would have been different. I'm glad you buy it from PA, that is what you SHOULD do. You don't get an award for doing what your supposed to. Do I need to continue?
excuse me while I laugh...i'm sure you won't be pulled within seconds if this actually happened. You think you can get by the FDA for some reason?Maybe you can buy my products when Europa offers them...
Was it coincidental timing or prior knowledge?
Yes, bad business ethics aren't my concern. I wonder if Enron said the same?As for the 4-AD...it is still none of your business either way UNLESS you hold the patent.
Because it is/was the truthYou are merely using that as a vehicle to attack.
If that is the only ammo you have I suggest you seek prefessional counseling to control your emotional problems.
From your zealous posts I may have been mistaken. To correct the problem and alleviate future confusion simply stop kicking a dead horse.Originally posted by 1Fast400
[BI guess this is where the biggest misunderstanding lies. You think I give two shits about all this.[/B]
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