Protein before bed = more gains

[JudoJosh]

Just so Im clear, if I were 100kg and...

...in the placebo group, I would have a pro intake of 130gm/day

...in the experimental group, I would have a pro intake of 160gm/day PLUS an additional 27.5gm (supplemented prior to bed), so 187.5gm pro total /day

Correct?

No, in the exprimental group you would have 130g give or take plus an additional 28g for a total of 158g.

The numbers I referenced before we're the protein totals of both groups. The 1.6g/kg was reflective of that extra 28g.

you mentioned earlier you couldn't see the chart so here are the numbers from it. The control group started the study with 101g/day and by the end was consuming 103g/day.

The experimental group started the study consuming 99g/day and by the end was consuming 106g/day. This is not counting the supplemental protein. with the extra prebed protein they consumed 134g/day vs 103g in the control group.

As you can see, not a huge difference in total protein intake besides the extra pre bed shake. But this shake resulted in almost doubling the cross sectional area of the quads and also saw significent strength gains over the placebo group.

So the question is if this is the result of the extra shake per day or the fact that the shake was consumed pre bed. If you see the other study I posted you see that timing does have some effect. Pre bed protein intake results in greater overall body protein retention through the night. So maybe it's the timing or maybe it's the protein intake differences. I am assuming we will see a follow up paper in a few years where they will have protein intake matched and ima bet there still will be a increase in gains in the prebed group.

 

[Jiigzz]

No, in the exprimental group you would have 130g give or take plus an additional 28g for a total of 158g.

The numbers I referenced before we're the protein totals of both groups. The 1.6g/kg was reflective of that extra 28g.

you mentioned earlier you couldn't see the chart so here are the numbers from it. The control group started the study with 101g/day and by the end was consuming 103g/day.

The experimental group started the study consuming 99g/day and by the end was consuming 106g/day. This is not counting the supplemental protein. with the extra prebed protein they consumed 134g/day vs 103g in the control group.

As you can see, not a huge difference in total protein intake besides the extra pre bed shake. But this shake resulted in almost doubling the cross sectional area of the quads and also saw significent strength gains over the placebo group.

So the question is if this is the result of the extra shake per day or the fact that the shake was consumed pre bed. If you see the other study I posted you see that timing does have some effect. Pre bed protein intake results in greater overall body protein retention through the night. So maybe it's the timing or maybe it's the protein intake differences. I am assuming we will see a follow up paper in a few years where they will have protein intake matched and ima bet there still will be a increase in gains in the prebed group.

My primary question is why wasn't both groups within the 1.6g/kg - 1.8g/kg of protein range that is considered optimal for strength training persons at a calorie maintenance?

Ill have to go back over some old papers but was there a significant difference in hypertropy between a suboptimal protein group and optimal group to establish those reference ranges? If so, that might be a partial explanation as to why we saw a difference here. The question would then be how much of a difference did they observe in those papers as to whether or not it could explain the dramatic increase this paper found.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Cool guys, those last 2 posts answering my question nicely clarify the numbers.

Further to Jiigzz question above, Im going to change tact and, instead of pursuing the question of why the researchers adopted the dosing scheme they did (and criticising it), ask if you have any ideas as to how a future study might address the efficacy of pre-bed PRO dosing.

Specifically, how might you guys envisage the dosing scheme? I have a few ideas in mind myself, but all seem to come with potential drawbacks.

 

[Jiigzz]

Cool guys, those last 2 posts answering my question nicely clarify the numbers.

Further to Jiigzz question above, Im going to change tact and, instead of pursuing the question of why the researchers adopted the dosing scheme they did (and criticising it), ask if you have any ideas as to how a future study might address the efficacy of pre-bed PRO dosing.

Specifically, how might you guys envisage the dosing scheme? I have a few ideas in mind myself, but all seem to come with potential drawbacks.

I think that if you truly want to gauge the effectiveness of protein timing, then all groups should have equal protein intakes. But then again, I bet someone would find a hole in that as well if total nitrogen turnover wasnt measured, lol.

I think people would only be satisfied IF all groups ate exactly the same foods but spread out protein/ dosed at different times.

Its not so much a criticism as discussion. As one group fell within the 'optimal' range and the other was slightly out, then it does warrant another look.

Ive always been of the mind that nutrient timing matters, even if not greatly; but the IIFYMers will pick holes in everything that goes against their ideas even if they do not do the same for studies that go for their argument.

 

[Auslifter]

Might be hinting towards spreading your protein intake evenly, i usually like 4 meals a day. 3 is good if you enjoy bigger meals. this reminds me i really want to try some strafe soon dat pre bed hica

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Ive always been of the mind that nutrient timing matters, even if not greatly; but the IIFYMers will pick holes in everything that goes against their ideas even if they do not do the same for studies that go for their argument.

I think I agree with pretty much all of your post (and when I talked of 'criticising the study' I was thinking of myself, not anything you had posted).

If protein intake was made equivalent across both groups, where/when should the placebo group ingest the 'missing' supplement dose? Spread out over their regular meals? Or a bolus dose in itself? If the latter, how far away from bedtime would be appropriate? Etc

I would fathom a guess that, in any other context, an IIFYMer may deem such considerations mere trivialities with little to no consequence; yet here we are considering them as potentially significant variables that may have a very non-trivial impact on the outcome of a study.

 

[JudoJosh]

My primary question is why wasn't both groups within the 1.6g/kg - 1.8g/kg of protein range that is considered optimal for strength training persons at a calorie maintenance?

Ill have to go back over some old papers but was there a significant difference in hypertropy between a suboptimal protein group and optimal group to establish those reference ranges? If so, that might be a partial explanation as to why we saw a difference here. The question would then be how much of a difference did they observe in those papers as to whether or not it could explain the dramatic increase this paper found.

1.3g/kg, while may not be great it is arguably adequate (albeit on the low end) for individuals who are not highly trained.

Again, this was a double blind placebo controlled study. How would they have matched protein intake between groups without ruining the placebo portion or the double blind portion? I would say that would take away much more from the results than the extra 28g difference.

Cool guys, those last 2 posts answering my question nicely clarify the numbers.

Further to Jiigzz question above, Im going to change tact and, instead of pursuing the question of why the researchers adopted the dosing scheme they did (and criticising it), ask if you have any ideas as to how a future study might address the efficacy of pre-bed PRO dosing.

Specifically, how might you guys envisage the dosing scheme? I have a few ideas in mind myself, but all seem to come with potential drawbacks.

The next paper will match protein intake to try and dial in if it is the timing (pre-bed) or not. The author states this "Future research will also tell us whether supplementing just before sleep is more effective tha supplementing at any other time point during the day"

 

[JudoJosh]

Also, you guys have to keep in mind what the question is that is being asked by the researchers. Just because a paper doesn't answer a question you want answered doesnt make it useless. Again try to understand the difficulty that is involved with research and how it is a progression of research that leads us to these much cooler studies. Not much has been done looking into if protein prior to bed has any kind of effect or not. They are just now starting to investigate this and you cant expect them to come with a metward study straight out the box on it.

This paper is seeing if consuming extra protein prior to bed has any effect compared to nothing at all. It is a follow up to the Res paper I posted above. That paper was only one day long and only sought out to see if consuming protein prior to sleep was digested and absorbed and what effect it had on MPS. They found that total body protein balance was better maintained we don't really know how much went to muscles. This one expanded on it showing that the whole body protein retention noted in the Res paper might be ending up in skeletal muscles.

So we have the Res paper showing elevated protein synthesis from prebed protein and now the Snijders paper showing muscle and strength gains suggesting that the elevated protein systhesis might be ending up in muscles. Next there will be a paper where they match protein intake by introducing a protein shake earlier in the day in the control group and seeing if the gains only appear in the experimental group or not.

Also, to the people caliming this was a crappy study or poorly done, please realize that the researchers of this study (one of whom is a very respected professor) put 44 people through a 12 week resistance training program, took muscle biopsies, CT scans, DEXA scans, and measured 1RM before and after training. Understand the amount of time, effort and money that went into this paper. Frankly, that is quite a bit invested in a follow up paper that was only probing to see if anything would happen and not really seeking to "prove" something.

 

[Jiigzz]

1.3g/kg, while may not be great it is arguably adequate (albeit on the low end) for individuals who are not highly trained.

Again, this was a double blind placebo controlled study. How would they have matched protein intake between groups without ruining the placebo portion or the double blind portion? I would say that would take away much more from the results than the extra 28g difference.




The next paper will match protein intake to try and dial in if it is the timing (pre-bed) or not. The author states this "Future research will also tell us whether supplementing just before sleep is more effective tha supplementing at any other time point during the day"

Two protein shakes, one placebo and one with protein but twice daily switched for both groups (I.e. pre bed group has placebo earlier and real later while control has protein earlier and placebo later).

I still think its a relevant study in providing insight to a whole picture, hasnt yet answered the question fully.

 

[Aleksandar37]

1.3g/kg, while may not be great it is arguably adequate (albeit on the low end) for individuals who are not highly trained.

Again, this was a double blind placebo controlled study. How would they have matched protein intake between groups without ruining the placebo portion or the double blind portion? I would say that would take away much more from the results than the extra 28g difference.

This is just a preliminary study and I look forward to them expanding on this, but I would have used two mystery drinks per day for both groups. That way you can give the "placebo group" the higher protein drink earlier in the day and the "protein group" the low protein option at that time. This would result in both groups getting equal total protein for the day, with the only variable being when they get that extra protein and everybody remains blind.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Damn, Jiigzz beat me!

 

[Jiigzz]

This is just a preliminary study and I look forward to them expanding on this, but I would have used two mystery drinks per day for both groups. That way you can give the "placebo group" the higher protein drink earlier in the day and the "protein group" the low protein option at that time. This would result in both groups getting equal total protein for the day, with the only variable being when they get that extra protein and everybody remains blind.

Great minds

 

[Aleksandar37]

Also, to the people caliming this was a crappy study or poorly done, please realize that the researchers of this study (one of whom is a very respected professor) put 44 people through a 12 week resistance training program, took muscle biopsies, CT scans, DEXA scans, and measured 1RM before and after training. Understand the amount of time, effort and money that went into this paper. Frankly, that is quite a bit invested in a follow up paper that was only probing to see if anything would happen and not really seeking to "prove" something.

I'm not writing off this study at all. Just being as critical if it had been sent to me for review. Their main objective was timing, but they still have the extra variable in there of total daily protein intake, which is a fairly large variable if we're discussing effects on muscle/strength gain.

 

[JudoJosh]

Two protein shakes, one placebo and one with protein but twice daily switched for both groups (I.e. pre bed group has placebo earlier and real later while control has protein earlier and placebo later).

I still think its a relevant study in providing insight to a whole picture, hasnt yet answered the question fully.

This is just a preliminary study and I look forward to them expanding on this, but I would have used two mystery drinks per day for both groups. That way you can give the "placebo group" the higher protein drink earlier in the day and the "protein group" the low protein option at that time. This would result in both groups getting equal total protein for the day, with the only variable being when they get that extra protein and everybody remains blind.

then it wouldnt be double blind as the researchers would have to know which drinks were placebo and which were protein.

 

[Jiigzz]

then it wouldnt be double blind as the researchers would have to know which drinks were placebo and which were protein.

Work around by assigning each drink a code, give to a third party to hand out the drinks to each group without researchers knowing, instructions are to drink a coded drink at a certain time.

It can be done without the researchers knowing who received what batch

 

[Aleksandar37]

then it wouldnt be double blind as the researchers would have to know which drinks were placebo and which were protein.

You just have whoever is making up the shakes mark them as A and B. And then what A and B are get revealed at the end. At some point somebody has to know which is which in order to make the shake, but it can't be the main researchers.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Jiigzz has a faster internet connection than me lol

 

[Jiigzz]

Jiigzz has a faster internet connection than me lol

Muahah this is gold lol

 

[Aleksandar37]

I must be getting the placebo shake

 

[Shasow]

I don't really get this discussion lol don't you all eat protein before bed ANYWAY?

 

[Jiigzz]

I don't really get this discussion lol don't you all eat protein before bed ANYWAY?

Nope lol. I dont.

 

[Aleksandar37]

It's one of those topics that wasn't really challenged before. Most accepted that if you really wanted gains, then you had a large amount of protein before bed. But now there is debate on if timing really matters or if it's just total protein.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I don't really get this discussion lol don't you all eat protein before bed ANYWAY?

Bro talk. IIFYM.

 

[abformulations]

I eat cereal before bed a lot, no fat gain ;-)

 

[Shasow]

Timing? I don't really look at it that way. To me its common sence that I need aminos circulating my body while it sleeps, heals and grows. Otherwise I'll literally feel myself going catabolic in the AM but if I ate a nice bit of steak before bed I wake up feeling g2g. So common sence tells me protein pre bed is smart. I thought everyone did this. ???

 

[NewAgeMayan]

The next paper will match protein intake to try and dial in if it is the timing (pre-bed) or not. The author states this "Future research will also tell us whether supplementing just before sleep is more effective tha supplementing at any other time point during the day"

I dunno man, on one hand I agree with what youre saying in defending the paper, but on the other hand Im still scratching my head as to why they didnt just run this next paper instead; what wouldve been lost by skipping this current stage and going straight to the proposed next one. The researchers obviously have something in mind, why didnt they run it?

 

[Jiigzz]

Timing? I don't really look at it that way. To me its common sence that I need aminos circulating my body while it sleeps, heals and grows. Otherwise I'll literally feel myself going catabolic in the AM but if I ate a nice bit of steak before bed I wake up feeling g2g. So common sence tells me protein pre bed is smart. I thought everyone did this. ???

Actual muscle tissue catabolism isnt going to reduce your muscle mass overnight. It would be impossible to feel catabolism occuring after a small tike without food; the body simply wouldnt send any signal that would result in you actively knowing.

If you enjoy it, awesome, but its not a necessity

 

[Shasow]

It 100% is for me. It's my last meal of the day. Eventually this would lead to atrophy. But before that I'd just under recover, feel sh*t, and not be able to workout as much.

I personally can't see how not eating protein/meal shortly before sleep (a very important stage of recovery) could be considered optimal. But hey to each their own.

 

[Jiigzz]

It 100% is for me. It's my last meal of the day. Eventually this would lead to atrophy. But before that I'd just under recover, feel sh*t, and not be able to workout as much.

I personally can't see how not eating protein/meal shortly before sleep (a very important stage of recovery) could be considered optimal. But hey to each their own.

This was a very common thought pattern in early years however as we understand atrophy processes a lot more than what we did then, we can say that unless you are starving yourself for days, are immobile (i.e. hospitalized) or do not continue to add a stressor to a muscle (exercise) then overtime this can lead to atrophy; but not overnight.

For instance, this study reduced intake to 1 meal per day and participants kept fat free mass (muscle) during the duration: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17413096

If we continue to provide a stimulus, then the body has no reason to atrophy so long as intake meets or exceeds requirements for its maintenance (can be achieved without a pre-bed meal).

Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld have a good study out on nutrient timing and the post exercise anabolic window as well : http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

This does not mean in any way that eating pre-bed is bad; I am simply saying there is no need to be bound to that dosing if it is inconvenient. Some people make this their life, and others it fits around their life. If it means you feel more recovered, better, fuller and wake up happier, then who am I to tell you what suits you best

 

[JudoJosh]

I must be getting the placebo shake

I lol'd at this. Good one

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Didn't this one already show IIFYM (a legitimate practice that has been bastardized by the cult members, but I digress,,,) or IF, isn't as good as even protein distribution?:

Dietary Protein Distribution Positively Influences 24-h Muscle Protein Synthesis in Healthy Adults

h t t p : / / w w w .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018950/

More research is always nice, but...

 

[Tabascoonall]

hit your macros by the end of the day period. didn't read the rest of the thread just answering question

 

[Aleksandar37]

I dunno man, on one hand I agree with what youre saying in defending the paper, but on the other hand Im still scratching my head as to why they didnt just run this next paper instead; what wouldve been lost by skipping this current stage and going straight to the proposed next one. The researchers obviously have something in mind, why didnt they run it?

There can be a endless number of reasons why that next paper never gets published. No matter if the data is positive, negative, or doesn't go in the direction you want it to, it is important to publish. As long as you are telling the truth, there is no such thing as a useless article. This group may lose funding or their funding may push them in another direction. Another group may have been attempting this and learned from this paper or builds off of what this group did. Also, sometimes the important point af an article is about a novel technique that is used and less about the end result. Science requires funding and funding requires published papers, so it's not enough to just scrap one and move on.

 

[Jiigzz]

Didn't this one already show IIFYM (a legitimate practice that has been bastardized by the cult members, but I digress,,,) or IF, isn't as good as even protein distribution?:

Dietary Protein Distribution Positively Influences 24-h Muscle Protein Synthesis in Healthy Adults

h t t p : / / w w w .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018950/

More research is always nice, but...

IIFYM is a legit practice, however the 5 words do imply one thing (if it fits, it is ok) while their intended content is another (as long as you hit minimums and getting in whole foods etc).

I remember looking over that paper without actually reading it. Will do it today.

 

[Driven2lift]

And yet the men who coined IIFYM never intended for it to be a diet at all

IIFYM should be a base to virtually any diet IMO and not one itself, its a way of looking at things and specifies nothing in terms of dietary choices

There was never a correct original form that people ruined, it was born as ruined lol.

Then when people correct others on how it should be done they are specifying food choices or types, and percentages of diet as whole food, or whatever else.
Essentially making a new diet, IIFYM is not one.

People eating poptarts and ice cream and people eating lean meats and vegetables are not doing the same thing IMO lol

 

[Driven2lift]

Alan Aragon's video is great.

IIFYM was a term he used that got taken out of context by internet bros

 

[Geoforce]

Alan Aragon's video is great.

IIFYM was a term he used that git taken out of context by internet bros

You mean I can't just eat crap all the time and simply rearrange my planned macros so I'm always hitting them thus following the plan?

Damn the luck.

 

[Driven2lift]

You mean I can't just eat crap all the time and simply rearrange my planned macros so I'm always hitting them thus following the plan? Damn the luck.

Lol well you could

But good luck to your progress

 

[TheFugitive]

A few years back I would drink Muscle Milk before bed. I gotta admit, I kinda liked it

 

[89Flex]

Interesting I drink approx. 30g Casein protein and a baked potato before bed when im trying to bulk up and I think it does help. Its got to be better than your body fasting all night.

 

[Geoforce]

Lol well you could

But good luck to your progress

It should be awesome. After all I'm hitting my macros!

 

[JudoJosh]

Stu Phillips just commented on this paper and I think his comments reflect what I have been trying to say previously in this thread

 

[kbayne]

Stu and Brad are having a great back to back convo on a post Brad through up regarding a study on net protein balance and the amount of protein per meal. I'm sure you've been reading and watching the back to back JudoJosh

 

[JudoJosh]

Stu and Brad are having a great back to back convo on a post Brad through up regarding a study on net protein balance and the amount of protein per meal. I'm sure you've been reading and watching the back to back JudoJosh

Nope, have not. Is it in the ISSN FB group?

 

[kbayne]

Nope, have not. Is it in the ISSN FB group?

Just on Brads Facebook page.

I'd like to see what you think.

 

[Jiigzz]

Stu Phillips just commented on this paper and I think his comments reflect what I have been trying to say previously in this thread

Its a building block, yes but when you post this as the main 'caption'

From a new study published in the Journal of Nutrition, researchers found that consuming 28g of protein and 15g of carbs before bed helps you gain more muscle and get stronger

, then expect people to be like "well, did the methodology allow for that conclusion to be found? Or was the study design skewed so that the before bed group had more protein in total?"

So while it may be an important step in the right direction, it doesn't actually answer the question or allow for that conclusion to be drawn.

If I dramatize it, had I designed a study that one group ate only "dirty food" to maintenance calories and one group that ate "clean food" for a bulk and watched progress over 20 weeks, could I draw the conclusion "fast food not evil, good food make you fat!" or was there an error or oversight in the methods that meant one group was favoured to achieve a certain set of results?

 

[JudoJosh]

Its a building block, yes but when you post this as the main 'caption' , then expect people to be like "well, did the methodology allow for that conclusion to be found?

Valid point

 

[JudoJosh]

Just on Brads Facebook page.

I'd like to see what you think.

Is it the one over Wolfe protein presentation in Texas?

 

[breezy11]

Is it the one over Wolfe protein presentation in Texas?

That's it man.

 

[JudoJosh]

It's over 100 post. Not sure I have the attention span for a 100+ facebook convo. I bet more than have of it is circle jerkers and trolls.

I'm assuming Phillips is skeptical over Wolfes results?