No Gains + Getting Fat = Test E 500 approaching wk 7

[Lotusbro]

Hey guys


First ever steroid cycle
Note (i am on TRT Nebido shots since 1 year back also)

So as the title says...

Been pinning Test E 250mg/ 2x per week and am on my 6th week, approaching 7th on Monday.


At this point i thought i would see some noticeable gains but i haven't more than that i've got
more fat. Been asking my GF too if she notices any difference and she can't tell more than that my traps has grown a little.

I have seen the strength gains people are talking about the last 2 weeks but that's it..

STATS
28 yr old
190 cm
Fat % when cycle started: 15% --- Fat now? 18% maybe
Weight when i started 6th November: 95.3kg
Weight this morning: 107kg

Calories:3372
P 260
F 87
K 364

Training:
6x a week, hitting on muscle per session
10-15 reps x 3-4 sets - Focus is on contact and pump but still progressing with overload.
I am pushing my self every workout and i feel motivated so i can't blame the training at all.

Week 3 i got high E2 symptoms and went for bloods.
Test came back high as it should be so did E2.
So i increased the Adex from .25mg to 1mg every day for 1 week.
Took another blood on E2 and it was in range.
Now i'm taking 0.5mg EOD and i am not feeling any sides regarding high or low E2.



Soo to sum this up....
When you read posts here from people not being able to grow, it's usually that they eat too little.
In my case it seems to be the other way, and no i'm not smashing pizza, burgers and candy. I eat very clean and cheat one or two meails on weekends.
The daily intake is always weighted using my food scale.

So as you can see i've gained 11.7kg since start.
I'm pretty sure 5kg is pure water/ glycogen weight as i gained couple kg the first week.

Now i am not sure what to do here.. should i cut my carbs a little to get the calories down or how would you approach this.

So far the "first cycle is the best cycle" isn't looking to be true here..

 

[Mathb33]

Concidering what you’re saying I would up protein and lower carbs. I would watch closely how thing goes and I would adjust but you def have to switch up your macros %

 

[Renew1]

Concidering what you’re saying I would up protein and lower carbs. I would watch closely how thing goes and I would adjust but you def have to switch up your macros %

Yep.

 

[swimfan65]

1mg ed of adex...im guessing you crashed your E

 

[Shiznitzz]

I would swich your carb intake from 364g down to about half that, and increase your fat intake. Testosterone is fat soluble and can't take full effect if you aren't taking in enough fat.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I reacted the same way to 600mg test e. I gained about 10.5lbs initially from the tbol kickstart, but as soon as I dropped the tbol, my strength practically plateaued, even as I continued to gain another 7-8lbs of water weight. Test is overrated for strength and muscle mass, in my experience at least.

 

[Jinsun]

Didn't gain much on test either. Imo test is good for keeping up endurance, recovery and it's psychological effects.

 

[Cgkone]

I'm another one who thinks just testsucks.
It works for a lot of people.
Next run add some deca and keep the test at 250.
Or test 250+ plus eq 900

 

[Renew1]

I'm another one who thinks just testsucks.
It works for a lot of people.
Next run add some deca and keep the test at 250.
Or test 250+ plus eq 900

Me too guys.

 

[BlockBuilder]

Pics would help. Before cycle and now if you have them

 

[Old Witch]

As far as fat gain, I think your training might actually be inadequate in that case. 3-4 sets in the 10-15 rep range is not enough. Luckily it’s only barely not enough, increase the weight to 8-12 reps and increase your sets to 5. Make absolutely sure you fail on the fifth set. Give it all you got.

I bet a dollar this changes everything.

 

[Slapoyjoe]

30 sets a day would change things I’d imagine

 

[swimfan65]

As far as fat gain, I think your training might actually be inadequate in that case. 3-4 sets in the 10-15 rep range is not enough. Luckily it’s only barely not enough, increase the weight to 8-12 reps and increase your sets to 5. Make absolutely sure you fail on the fifth set. Give it all you got.

I bet a dollar this changes everything.

Im in for a buck.

 

[Jinsun]

Not to be a dick, but who still does bro splits??!!

Also, number of sets per exercise doesn't matter that much. What matters is total volume per muscle group.

 

[Old Witch]

Not to be a dick, but who still does bro splits??!!

Also, number of sets per exercise doesn't matter that much. What matters is total volume per muscle group.

Sort of... you still need to lift a somewhat heavy weight, which limits your rep range to a certain number. The number of sets per movement ensures a predictable total volume per muscle group, provided there are an adequate number of movements utilized for each muscle group.

 

[DemntedCowboy]

Not to be a dick, but who still does bro splits??!!

Also, number of sets per exercise doesn't matter that much. What matters is total volume per muscle group.

I still do bro spilts

 

[Old Witch]

Optimal stimulus is going to be around 40-70 reps at 70-80% of 1RM for each muscle group per training session, and repeated as soon as possible once the muscle is recovered, ie twice to thrice a week.

 

[Slapoyjoe]

Something about this isn't right.

3,300 cals are not a lot. Are you sure you are tracking correctly? Are you lifting heavy enough?, I mean to near failure?

 

[RickyBlobby]

Lower test and carbs. Add Msten or other potent oral and protein. On steroids you don't need excess cals to put on muscle. You may lose weight but it will be fat.

My first cycle was very low calories and high protein. I got ripped and put on noticeable muscle. Looked 3x better

 

[Jinsun]

Optimal stimulus is going to be around 40-70 reps at 70-80% of 1RM for each muscle group per training session, and repeated as soon as possible once the muscle is recovered, ie twice to thrice a week.

Nah man, different muscle groups have different maximal recoverable volumes and different minimal volumes. Also you should look at working sets and not the amount of reps.

And sure, as everybody has pointed out, intesity must be from RPE 7 to 10.

 

[Cgkone]

I would lower the test and finish with an oral.

 

[Nac]

Did everyone overlook OPs claim that he has been supposedly getting steron strength gainz the last two weeks?

Based on the limited info he has told us, Id say his body comp changes have been "hidden" somewhat by water and bloat.

But he's put on on 12kg of bodyweight...12kg. Lol, thats nearly 30lbs in 7 weeks. Based on his kcals theres no fukn way thats mostly fat.

At 6ft2, 3300kcal is not a ridiculous amount either.

But who the fuk knows what he was doing prior to this (cutting? Recomping?) nor what his training was like (the same? Getting gainz? No gainz? Deloading?)

OP, for fuks suk take body tape measures. Whats your gut done over the last 7wks? This sh1t is basic necessity for objective assessment, otherwise we're all relying on how you subjectively perceive your body (nothanxjeff).

Aaaaand, another factor, is the 500mg testE on top of his trt dose of test undec? Or has he dropped the trt?

 

[Old Witch]

Did everyone overlook OPs claim that he has been supposedly getting steron strength gainz the last two weeks?

Based on the limited info he has told us, Id say his body comp changes have been "hidden" somewhat by water and bloat.

But he's put on on 12kg of bodyweight...12kg. Lol, thats nearly 30lbs in 7 weeks. Based on his kcals theres no fukn way thats mostly fat.

At 6ft2, 3300kcal is not a ridiculous amount either.

But who the fuk knows what he was doing prior to this (cutting? Recomping?) nor what his training was like (the same? Getting gainz? No gainz? Deloading?)

OP, for fuks suk take body tape measures. Whats your gut done over the last 7wks? This sh1t is basic necessity for objective assessment, otherwise we're all relying on how you subjectively perceive your body (nothanxjeff).

Aaaaand, another factor, is the 500mg testE on top of his trt dose of test undec? Or has he dropped the trt?

Overlooked most of that on purpose.

 

[Whisky]

Did everyone overlook OPs claim that he has been supposedly getting steron strength gainz the last two weeks?

Based on the limited info he has told us, Id say his body comp changes have been "hidden" somewhat by water and bloat.

But he's put on on 12kg of bodyweight...12kg. Lol, thats nearly 30lbs in 7 weeks. Based on his kcals theres no fukn way thats mostly fat.

At 6ft2, 3300kcal is not a ridiculous amount either.

But who the fuk knows what he was doing prior to this (cutting? Recomping?) nor what his training was like (the same? Getting gainz? No gainz? Deloading?)

OP, for fuks suk take body tape measures. Whats your gut done over the last 7wks? This sh1t is basic necessity for objective assessment, otherwise we're all relying on how you subjectively perceive your body (nothanxjeff).

Aaaaand, another factor, is the 500mg testE on top of his trt dose of test undec? Or has he dropped the trt?

Yep, reading the thread I was just thinking there’s a lot of water retention. 500mg of test put 15lbs of water on me within a couple of weeks (e was also high). My abs disappeared within those first two weeks so easy to assume it’s fat, most likely just water.

That said I also found all my gains on cycle came when orals were involved. Test only didn’t do much although I felt decent.

 

[Nac]

Overlooked most of that on purpose.

Lol, love you

If I was on test undec as trt, I wouldve been more inclined to add in something like NPP. Adding in moar test, especially a different ester, ugh its just a recipe for potential messy peaks and troughs. Can get tricky establishing an effective AI protocol when levels are being compounded or irregular. Not impossible, but its why lots of guys cant stand sustanon. Especially for a first blast.

Im inclined to think things arent as bad as OP is making out (giving him benefit of doubt that his training protocol has been effective prior), but he is basically p1ssing in the wind if he's not taking rudimentary body measures (bis flexed, gut circumference, etc).

 

[Lotusbro]

Some really valueable inputs here.

Yes i am lifting to almost failure and i am exhausted after my sessions.

Maybe it is kicking in now these last 2 weeks and thats were i will notice the gains coming the last half of this 12 week cycle

Prior to this cycle i was traveling a lot for the last 6 weeks prior and did not work out a lot.

I am still on trt dose as i cant skip it. If i skip the Trt injections the doc will wonder why and then i will be ****ting my self.

Anyways i’ve recalculated the macros.
350g protein and 290g carbs now instead of
260g protein and 364 carbs.
Still same daily calories

 

[Whisky]

Not to be a dick, but who still does bro splits??!!

Also, number of sets per exercise doesn't matter that much. What matters is total volume per muscle group.

Wouldn’t you say on cycle is the one time when a bro split is valid (due to increase in protein synthesis)......

Agree off cycle it’s pointless but on cycle (and assuming ones goal is body building) then I’ve always felt it has a place. Not my personal style mind you.

 

[swimfan65]

Sort of... you still need to lift a somewhat heavy weight, which limits your rep range to a certain number. The number of sets per movement ensures a predictable total volume per muscle group, provided there are an adequate number of movements utilized for each muscle group.

I dont count reps or sets. My heavy work sets are like the 4 to 6 rep range...whatever failure is..and usually one negative rep. In each exercise, I probably do like 5 sets like this. If my body isnt screaming or shaking from exertion, I do more sets. Its what works for me. Some guys can get away with heavy volume and lighter weight, I aint one of those dudes. I completely crush whatever body part Im working then immediately feed it. I dont track cals anymore either...cutting..I eat less carbs. For strength and size..lots of carbs and protein. Ive been doing this for 20 years, I know my body and what works...plus this isnt rocket science. Todays generation makes it so damn compilcated. Its not. Train like a beast and eat like a beast. This dude getting fat on his cycle can only be one of two things...not training hard enough or eating too much of the wrong thing..or both. Im no detective...but Im guessing thats the issue.

 

[DemntedCowboy]

I dont count reps or sets. My heavy work sets are like the 4 to 6 rep range...whatever failure is..and usually one negative rep. In each exercise, I probably do like 5 sets like this. If my body isnt screaming or shaking from exertion, I do more sets. Its what works for me. Some guys can get away with heavy volume and lighter weight, I aint one of those dudes. I completely crush whatever body part Im working then immediately feed it. I dont track cals anymore either...cutting..I eat less carbs. For strength and size..lots of carbs and protein. Ive been doing this for 20 years, I know my body and what works...plus this isnt rocket science. Todays generation makes it so damn compilcated. Its not. Train like a beast and eat like a beast. This dude getting fat on his cycle can only be one of two things...not training hard enough or eating too much of the wrong thing..or both. Im no detective...but Im guessing thats the issue.

I agree... On cycle is 50%P/30%C/20%F and about 4,000 calories low reps heavy weights. Off cycle is 50%P/30%F/20%C 1,800 calories high rep low weight. But thats just me. I know your big tree in the woods a$$ would die on 1,800 calories.

 

[swimfan65]

Thats one meal for me buddy...lol. I can cut on 4k probably

 

[DemntedCowboy]

Thats one meal for me buddy...lol. I can cut on 4k probably

Exactly, but I look like a midget next to you. Lol...We still need to get together and train, when I get back from Louisiana

 

[swimfan65]

Exactly, but I look like a midget next to you. Lol...We still need to get together and train, when I get back from Louisiana

For sure brother

 

[Old Witch]

Good points guys. Personally, I do full body four days a week. No, I don’t get a chance to “fully” recover... in fact that’s how I know if my hgh type products are working. Because then I do fully recover. But normally by day four it’s pretty serious pain pushing for more weight. And then three days off. And then I recover so fully I can completely overshoot last weeks weight ranges. Overreaching they call it.

 

[swimfan65]

Good points guys. Personally, I do full body four days a week. No, I don’t get a chance to “fully” recover... in fact that’s how I know if my hgh type products are working. Because then I do fully recover. But normally by day four it’s pretty serious pain pushing for more weight. And then three days off. And then I recover so fully I can completely overshoot last weeks weight ranges. Overreaching they call it.

Right now, I go 3 days on 1 day off 3 days on 1 day off...until my body screams rest. Then I take 2 or 3 off and come back freaky strong. I do this because I just feel at home in the gym and Im fairly addicted...plus my GF is pretty annoying...lol. Kinda goes..chest, back shoulders, arms. I do legs and dead lift every other day...doesnt matter what else Im training. Cardio and abs everyday. Im probably in the gym 20 hours a week.

 

[Nac]

Good points guys. Personally, I do full body four days a week. No, I don’t get a chance to “fully” recover... in fact that’s how I know if my hgh type products are working. Because then I do fully recover. But normally by day four it’s pretty serious pain pushing for more weight. And then three days off. And then I recover so fully I can completely overshoot last weeks weight ranges. Overreaching they call it.

Sounds like a good system. And what makes it work is not some secret or revolutionary technique, but that you are aware of your own recovery tendencies, how to push them, when to recognise sufficient fatigue has accumulated that a "deload" (recovery) is warranted, and how long to deload for before reintroducing the training stimulus so as to maximise progression.

I think thats the basis for any really good intermediate-advanced protocol. The differences will lie in how we choose to structure our training blocks in terms of volume, frequency, and deloads.

 

[Old Witch]

Right now, I go 3 days on 1 day off 3 days on 1 day off...until my body screams rest. Then I take 2 or 3 off and come back freaky strong. I do this because I just feel at home in the gym and Im fairly addicted...plus my GF is pretty annoying...lol. Kinda goes..chest, back shoulders, arms. I do legs and dead lift every other day...doesnt matter what else Im training. Cardio and abs everyday. Im probably in the gym 20 hours a week.

I’m only in there about an hour a night. But I do five heavy progressive sets of each movement(12,11,10,9,8)and hit every single muscle group, resting under 30 seconds between all sets. Also once a week I test my 1RM on my big two I can still do, and do 5x1 then the 5x12-8 on those days. I can’t squat anymore so I am stuck with leg press, I increased it a hundred pounds in one week once I added it in to this routine. Calf curls and leg extensions weren’t enough. I hope to add another hundred next week.

 

[Jinsun]

Wouldn’t you say on cycle is the one time when a bro split is valid (due to increase in protein synthesis)......

Agree off cycle it’s pointless but on cycle (and assuming ones goal is body building) then I’ve always felt it has a place. Not my personal style mind you.

Well actually if you think about it, it should be just the opposite. Think about it like this: the SRA curve (strength, recovery, adaptation) is longer when you are off cycle. And thus you have to give most of the muscle groups at least a day off, so they can recover. When you are on cycle, the recovery part is much shorter as is adaptation to a degree. The latter is a neurological response, so it's not quite the same as the recovery.

So, for the most part, when natty, it makes sense to train muscles 3x a week. Some movements may present a much harder hit on the body, for example dead lifts, and should be trained max 2x a week - they impact homeostasis the most. But when on cycle you can train much much more often. Thus increasing the total mesocycle volume by at least 1.5x.

So no, bro splits don't make sense on or off cycle

 

[Slapoyjoe]

OP, post a before and current pic. My guess is you're retaining water. If you're getting stronger it's working.

Just keep lifting hard and adjusting. Maybe add a bit of LISS cardio but only a bit.

 

[BloodManor]

Not to be a dick, but who still does bro splits??!!

Also, number of sets per exercise doesn't matter that much. What matters is total volume per muscle group.

Nothing wrong with bro splits at all. I kinda do one I have a bench day,deadlift day,ohp day then a squat day. After I do 14 sets of the main lift then I do accessory work.
Main lifts are 10x10,5x1,3x1,1x1,then 0 sets of 10x10

That’s almost a bro split

 

[BloodManor]

Typo ^^^ should say 10 sets of 10x10
Won’t let me edit lol

 

[Jinsun]

Nothing wrong with bro splits at all. I kinda do one I have a bench day,deadlift day,ohp day then a squat day. After I do 14 sets of the main lift then I do accessory work.
Main lifts are 10x10,5x1,3x1,1x1,then 0 sets of 10x10

That’s almost a bro split

Sure you are going to gain mass on bro splits, especially when on gear, but it's far from optimal. That's all ... SRA curves are 1 to 3 days, depending on the muscle group and homeostasis disturbance. If your muscles are recovered by wednesday and you wont train them till next monday, you are essentially wasting a lot of volume and thus growth/adaptations.

 

[BloodManor]

Sure you are going to gain mass on bro splits, especially when on gear, but it's far from optimal. That's all ... SRA curves are 1 to 3 days, depending on the muscle group and homeostasis disturbance. If your muscles are recovered by wednesday and you wont train them till next monday, you are essentially wasting a lot of volume and thus growth/adaptations.

I train usually 24 days straight before I take a day off lol I do my 4 day then repeat. I recover very wckly while others it takes them longer. And we never do everything optimal - from eating to training , when you leave the gym look back and ask yourself could I of done more? If you said no then you are lying to yourself.
That also includes eating - we all enjoy the occasional drink and fried crap

 

[Nac]

Nothing wrong with bro splits at all. I kinda do one I have a bench day,deadlift day,ohp day then a squat day. After I do 14 sets of the main lift then I do accessory work.
Main lifts are 10x10,5x1,3x1,1x1,then 0 sets of 10x10

That’s almost a bro split

Dude, thats closer to an Upper/Lower than a bro split. Add in your accessory work + your doing that 24 days straight...I wouldnt call that a bro split in any traditional sense. Hell, Id say its closer to PHAT, at its core, than a bro split.

A traditional bro split will "undertrain" legs relative to upper body. No way youre doing that.

I dont think its mere semantics.

 

[Old Witch]

Monday wouldn’t be international chest day without bro splits.

 

[Old Witch]

Bro splits seemed to work for Dorian Yates...

 

[Nac]

Bro splits seemed to work for Dorian Yates...

Yeah, lol, I dont think it particularly helpful to us Average-Joes to use the Genetic-One-Percentile as a guide to whats beneficial, at least not in this case.

No-ones saying a bro split wont work, anyway. The idea is to try and maximise gainz using science, rather than Flex articles from the 90s.

 

[swimfan65]

I dont even know what a bro split is...lol

 

[swimfan65]

Sometimes..not often...I just crush whatever dont hurt.

 

[Old Witch]

Yeah, lol, I dont think it particularly helpful to us Average-Joes to use the Genetic-One-Percentile as a guide to whats beneficial, at least not in this case.

No-ones saying a bro split wont work, anyway. The idea is to try and maximise gainz using science, rather than Flex articles from the 90s.

I thought Arnold Schwarzenegger’s split was how you were supposed to train, for years. It. Was. Grueling.

Yes, I am a little crazy.


Now, I take the principle behind some of what Dorian proved to be true (lift heavy, short sessions) with what others are doing (full body = maximal growth, calculated overload) and adding in Arnold’s principle of shocking the muscle. So for a month I do one routine, then change it. Meanwhile each week I change the routine one exercise at a time either in grip or substitution (pull ups for pull downs) and repeat days are always unilateral. So far, since adding all of that together it has proven to be quite effective.

Those “getting back to it” “newbie GAINZ part II” had stalled off after about ten months, so I needed to expedite the process. This is the fastest way I know of. So far two months of this new way I’ve designed and I’m quite happy with it.

 

[Old Witch]

By the way, I train with a 21 year old natty who is consistently getting better results than me doing the exact same routine with same weight. ****ing old age...